House of Commons Hansard Debates for 3 Jun 1991

Mr. Freeman : I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman has his figures muddled. Since deregulation, figures for bus services outside London show an increase of about one fifth in the number of bus miles offered to passengers. There are more services by minibuses, double deckers, and coaches. The Government want to ensure that London has the same benefits-- more bus miles offered to passengers--so that we can encourage more passengers onto the buses and thereby help to relieve congestion.

Mr. Dykes : Does my hon. Friend the Minister agree, none the less, that the experience of transport planning, here and in other countries, suggests that something less than full deregulation may be appropriate to the capital city? Will he bear in mind that need to compromise?

Mr. Freeman : We are still receiving consultation responses, including the contribution from the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen). The Government have not reached a final decision on the format of deregulation. However, the central principle is clear. It divides the Opposition from the Government because we believe in a substantially deregulated market. More buses would come into London to offer their services, which would, hopefully, mean more passengers on the buses--

Mr. Prescott : What do the passengers think?

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Mr. Freeman : I shall not be drawn into making a riposte. The Government believe strongly that, the more buses that are provided and offered to customers in London, the more people will travel on them and the less congested our roads will become.

Railway Industry, York

12. Mr. Gregory : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he has any plans to make an official visit to York to inspect the railway industry.

Mr. McLoughlin : I visited York on 14 January to launch the new diesel express class of 158 units on the transpennine route. A total of 128 of these units are being introduced on regional railways. They will make a significant improvement to regional railway services. I hope to visit York on 27 June to attend a meeting of the North Eastern transport users' consultative committee.

Mr. Gregory : I am delighted by the regularity with which my hon. Friend visits York. I hope that he will encourage my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State to visit, not only to see the new headquarters of British Rail Freight but to take the opportunity to explain to British Rail employees the advantages of

denationalisation. Will he make clear to them that they would benefit from share ownership in much the same way as their brothers and sisters in British Rail Engineering Ltd.?

Mr. McLoughlin : I am grateful to my hon. Friend and am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State would welcome the opportunity to visit York to explain the advantages of privatising British Rail.

Mrs. Dunwoody : When the Minister visits York, will he talk to the workers of BREL, who will explain to him how those of them who have been there for 25 or 26 years are losing their redundancy terms each year that they retain their membership of the new company, while new directors are being given enormous benefits? Will the Minister try to understand that, far from being an advantage to workers, privatisation will mean enormous job losses, worse conditions and much lower redundancy payments when employees lose their jobs?

Mr. McLoughlin : I need not go to York to meet workers of BREL because I often meet them in my constituency. We believe that they are in a far better position in a privatised company than they would have been, had the company continued to be a subsidiary of British Rail, and most of the workers believe that, too.

Light Rapid Transit Systems

13. Mr. Andrew Mitchell : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what is Government policy on assistance for further light rapid transit systems.

Mr. Freeman : We are prepared to grant-aid worthwhile light rail schemes subject to the availability of resources. In the past two years we have approved Manchester metro link at £120 million and South Yorkshire supertram at £230 million.

Mr. Mitchell : Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the considerable benefits that will accrue to my constituents and the many other people who live in the greater Nottingham area from a Nottingham LRT? Will he also

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bear in mind that the project being developed there represents genuine participation between the private and the public sectors, which deserves full Government support, not only after a Bill is put before the House but, before that, during the project's development?

Mr. Freeman : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. We welcome the participation of the private sector in transport schemes--for example, the docklands light railway and the Jubilee line. The light rail schemes, in Nottingham and Bristol, are to be welcomed. They ensure that projects funded by the public purse are much more likely to proceed.

Mr. Snape : Given the Secretary of State's recent and much- publicised conversion to the principle of support for public transport, particularly rail, would it not be a good idea for him to implement what are at present only ideas and give the go ahead to the midland metro? That would contribute enormously to the reduction of congestion in the Birmingham-West Bromwich-Wolverhampton corridor.

Mr. Freeman : I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's support for that scheme. His views sit uncomfortably with those expressed by his colleague, the shadow spokesman for transport, on light rail schemes in general. The Government believe that once exercises are concluded on sensible propositions--including, on the face of it, the one for the west midlands--and if resources are available, they will be funded.

DUCHY OF LANCASTER

Official Visit

28. Mr. Simon Coombs : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he next intends to visit the Duchy to discuss with tenants the income of the Duchy.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Chris Patten) : I very much look forward to my next visit to the Duchy. However I do not expect to discuss Duchy income levels with tenants.

Mr. Coombs : Does my right hon. Friend share my concern that, at a time of steadily reducing interest rates, tenants in the Duchy who are small business owners are faced with increases in the amount they have to pay for bank loans? Has my right hon. Friend received any representations on that matter from tenants in the Duchy? Does he have any ideas to put before the House, now or in future, that might alleviate the problems of small businesses?

Mr. Patten : I shall certainly draw my hon. Friend's views to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was able to offer a few views on that important subject on a well-known television programme yesterday morning. I am sure that my right hon. Friend, were he at the Dispatch Box, would say that in the implausible event of a Labour Government, interest rates would be a great deal higher due to the risk premium of socialist policies.

29. Mr. Burns : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he next proposes to visit the Duchy on official business.

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Mr. Chris Patten : I have no plans to visit the Duchy estates in the immediate future.

Mr. Burns : I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. When he draws up his programme for future visits to the Duchy, will he specifically include a visit to Ribble Valley and, once there, judge the extent--although I accept that it will be extremely difficult for him--to which voters are more aware of Liberal Democrat policies?

Mr. Patten : As my hon. Friend knows from his successful experience in Chelmsford, very few people seem to know what Liberal Democrat policies amount to, as that party customarily stands for a sort of a sanctimonious popularism, which means that its members are in favour of whatever they think is immediately popular on the side of town where they are standing for office. I hope that more people in the Ribble Valley, as elsewhere in the country, will now know that two things for which the Liberals certainly stand are higher income tax and a 50 per cent. cut in our defence programme.

Dr. Cunningham : When the Chancellor of the Duchy goes to the north- west, will he accept that people there are far more at risk from the failed policies of the Conservative Government than from anything that the Liberal Democrats may have to offer? Will he tell those in the north-west--the 8,000 people who lost their jobs in April alone, the 745 companies which went into liquidation in the first three months of this year and the 606 companies that went bankrupt this year--whether he shares the view of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that that is a price well worth paying?

Mr. Patten : I would certainly point out to anyone in the north-west to whom I was fortunate enough to speak that there had been a 16 per cent. increase in the number of businesses in the north-west since 1979. I should also point out that unemployment would be higher if there were such a thing as a Labour Government, because of the national minimum wage--a well known fact. I would also point out that interest rates would be higher because of the risk premium of a Labour Government, and that taxes on everyone would be a great deal higher too.

30. Mr. Viggers : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he next expects to visit the Duchy to meet tenants and employees to discuss the taxation and income of the Duchy.

Mr. Chris Patten : I shall be meeting Duchy tenants next month, although, as I said earlier, I do not envisage discussing taxation or Duchy income levels.

Mr. Viggers : I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. When next he has a chance to move as a popular Chancellor among his grateful tenantry does he anticipate receiving from them expressions of concern of the sort that I receive in my constituency about the fact that it is now official Labour party policy to cut defence expenditure by about £9 billion-- and that that is likely to cost thousands of jobs, including thousands of jobs in Lancashire?

Mr. Patten : My hon. Friend is of course entirely correct to point out that Labour party conferences have consistently voted for cuts of one third in our defence budget. I understand that they would amount to about£9 billion. We know very well that Labour's cuts in our

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conventional defences, as well as its unilateralism, would lead to job cuts in the north-west and elsewhere in the country and to the undermining of our security.

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION

Certification Audits

38. Mr. Tony Banks : To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission how many certification audits were carried out by the National Audit Office in each of the past two years.

Sir Peter Hordern (on behalf of the Public Accounts Commission) : The National Audit Office certified 466 accounts in 1989-90, and 463 in 1990-91.

Mr. Banks : The National Audit Office is obviously working hard and extremely efficiently, and on behalf of the whole House we should like to thank it. Am I correct in saying that it also examined the social security accounts, paying particular attention to computer technology and the assessment of income support? Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the great deal of suffering that underestimating or overestimating income support calculations inflicts on the clients of the DSS? Will he have a gentle word in the ear of the Comptroller and Auditor General and suggest that he looks again at the use of computers in the Department and perhaps that he comes to my constituency, to the DSS office at Jubilee house, to see how inefficiently the computer system there is operated?

Sir Peter Hordern : I am sure that the Comptroller and Auditor General does examine the accounts to which the hon. Gentleman has referred. However, these matters are more properly within the province of the Public Accounts Committee than within that of the Public Accounts Commission ; but I am quite certain that the Comptroller and Auditor General will take note of what has been said.

Mr. Campbell-Savours : Does the hon. Gentleman think that the recommendations of the Procedure Committee, which I strongly oppose, to widen the remit of the National Audit Office so that it has to report to Select Committees will prejudice the work done by the NAO on certification and the relationship that it has with Government Departments, which is very much based on trust? That trust might be endangered if the work of the NAO is drawn into the political haranguing that may sometimes occur in Select Committees.

Sir Peter Hordern : The Public Accounts Commission has not yet considered that matter, although we may do so. I should greatly regret anything that diminished the authority or role of the Comptroller and Auditor General or the close association that he has with the Public Accounts Committee.

Mr. Soames : Will my hon. Friend pass on to the Comptroller and Auditor General and to the National Audit Office the gratitude of the whole House for the excellent work that the organisation undertakes? Does he agree that by the structure and content of its reports the NAO has greatly increased, through the clarity of its presentation, the information available to ordinary Members of this House?

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Sir Peter Hordern : I am most grateful to my hon. Friend, as I am sure the Comptroller and Auditor General will be. I shall pass on my hon. Friend's remarks.

Dr. Kim Howells : Given the precedent set by the investigations of the National Audit Office into the financial consequences of the sale of the Rover car company, will the NAO be able to examine the results of the horse trading that is taking place to try to capture the Channel 3 franchises of television companies?

Sir Peter Hordern : That will not be a matter for the Public Accounts Commission. I am sure that the Comptroller and Auditor General will examine anything which the hon. Gentleman may care to put to him. I have no authority in the matter.

DUCHY OF LANCASTER

Duchy Income

31. Mr. Jacques Arnold : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he next expects to visit the Duchy to discuss the income levels of the Duchy.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Chris Patten) : I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave some moments ago to my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Mr. Coombs).

Mr. Arnold : If my right hon. Friend were to discuss the income levels of the people of the Duchy, would he consider with them the advantages of a Government who have cut personal taxation and who will do so again when that is prudent? Would he compare that Government with a Government formed by the Labour party, the Opposition? Previous Labour Administrations have increased taxation, and a Labour Government would do so again.

Mr. Patten : The other day the Leader of the Opposition said that no one could look to a Labour Government, were there to be one, for tax cuts. I think that that was the understatement of the decade. Under a Labour Government, tax would increase for everyone in work, for all savers, for the thrifty and for the enterprising.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

Public Facilities

39. Mr. Tony Banks : To ask the Lord President of the Council what proposals he has to extend public facilities in the Palace of Westminster.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. John MacGregor) : The relevant Services sub-committees are currently considering measures to improve further access for disabled visitors and the feasibility of providing refreshments for all visitors in advance of whatever may be included in the design brief for phase 2 of the new parliamentary building.

Mr. Banks : Does the Lord President share my understanding that having a cream tea with a Member on the Terrace is one of the high spots of the London season? It is certainly one of the lesser injuries that we can inflict upon our constituents. Given the appalling weather at present and the tight-fistedness of many hon. Members, it

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is clear that a cream tea is not one of the pleasures that many constituents can enjoy. Could not we have a boat moored off the Thames on which refreshments are provided? It would-- [Interruption.] This is a serious point. Such a boat would enable members of the public to enjoy the views that we have. Refreshments could be offered not in phase 2 but in the Palace of Westminster itself, perhaps by using Westminster Hall. We are very ready to take hospitality in this place but reluctant to offer it.

Mr. MacGregor : I do not often have cream teas and I rather welcome the rain because we are badly in need of it.

It is generally agreed that it is not possible to provide refreshments for visitors in the Palace itself. I doubt whether Westminster Hall would be an appropriate place for the provision of refreshments. The Catering sub- committee has agreed to commission a feasibility study to determine whether reasonable facilities that are conveniently close to the House can be provided for groups of Members' guests. I know of one location that is being included in the study, and I shall ask the sub-committee to consider the hon. Gentleman's suggestion.

Recycled Paper

40. Mr. Butler : To ask the Lord President of the Council whether there are any proposals to produce the Official Report on recycled paper.

Mr. MacGregor : This matter was considered by the Accommodation and Administration sub-committee during the previous Session. The Committee agreed with advice given by Her Majesty's Stationery Office that recycled paper was currently unsuitable for use in producing parliamentary publications, including the Official Report , largely due to the poor archival qualities of this type of paper.

Mr. Butler : I understand the need to retain some Hansards for archival purposes, but most daily reports and most Order Papers are put into the rubbish bin at the end of the day. Is there not a case for reconsidering the use of recycled paper for those parliamentary papers?

Mr. MacGregor : I understand that some libraries use copies of the daily Official Report and other volumes for archival purposes. I take my hon. Friend's point about Vote Papers and Vote bundles. I would guess that they are not used often for archival purposes. I am happy to ask the relevant Committee to take up the matter again and to consider my hon. Friend's suggestion. I am strongly in favour of using recycled paper whenever that is possible.

Mr. Simon Hughes : I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that helpful reply, but two further developments would be welcome. First, will he try to ensure that the amount of paper produced in the House--much of which is wasted internally, let alone externally--is reduced? There is considerable scope, especially in view of the amount of paper left at the end of every day and bundled up in the Vote Office.

Secondly, we are to some extent using recycled paper for correspondence. It is only woodcuts--offcuts--not properly recycled paper. Can we go the whole hog and have fully recycled paper?

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Mr. MacGregor : I shall see that the hon. Gentleman's point is considered. As for his first, I share his view that wherever possible we should cut down on the amount of paper that we use. I have often thought that we use far too much in the Vote bundle. The Procedure Committee has examined the matter and made some helpful recommendations. I am keen that it should do more, as I suggested when I met the Committee recently.

Most of the paper that goes into the wastepaper baskets in the House is sent for recycling. Nevertheless, I agree that it is our responsibility to cut down on paper whenever possible.

Official Envelopes

42. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he has any plans to extend the eligibility of House post-paid envelopes for use by an hon. Member writing to overseas constituents ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. MacGregor : I have no plans to do so. However, my hon. Friend may be aware that the Services Committee has recently approved the use of post-paid envelopes to certain official destinations in Europe and this facility will be available to hon. Members in June.

Mr. Greenway : I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply. I remind him that there are now 400,000 overseas constituents with whom hon. Members need to communicate. I am in constant communication with several of mine. Many of them live beyond the territories of Europe. Is my right hon. Friend aware that they like to receive House of Commons envelopes with the proper embossed heading? Will he find some way of enabling hon. Members to use those envelopes for communications with their overseas constituents?

Mr. MacGregor : It took some time to establish the arrangement that I have just described for certain European destinations, involving an embossed stamp. My hon. Friend has anticipated me. I was going to remind him that for overseas correspondence concerning parliamentary or constituency business hon. Members may use the normal postage stamps and reclaim the cost from the Fees Office against the office cost allowance. That is one possibility open to my hon. Friend, and he can also use House of Commons envelopes for that purpose even if they are not stamped.

Petitions

43. Mr. Cohen : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he has any plans to introduce a procedure whereby an official response would be presented in respect of all parliamentary public petitions.

Mr. MacGregor : No, Sir.

Mr. Cohen : Does the Lord President realise that more than 900 official petitions submitted last year received the response from the Government, "There is no Government response"? They were not ordinary street-corner petitions ; people had to go through a detailed rigmarole to present them to the House. The Government are undermining the British people's traditional right to present a petition to

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the House. I would have put this complaint in a petition, but I feared that I would receive the reply, "There is no response".

Mr. MacGregor : The hon. Gentleman is getting a response from me now. Part of the answer is that there are other ways in which constituents' requests--petitions, ideas and views--can receive Government answers, including the usual means of parliamentary questions. The hon. Gentleman is not quite right. The Government gave their observations on 170 of the 960 petitions in the previous Session. Not all petitions are addressed to the Government ; they are effectively addressed to the House. I think that it is right to follow the normal practices.

New Parliamentary Buildings

44. Mr. Simon Coombs : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement on progress on phases 1 and 2 of the new parliamentary buildings.

Mr. MacGregor : Phase 1 is now being fitted out and furnished. The part of the building occupied by the House of Commons Library, known as 1 Derby Gate, will open to Members on Monday 17 June. The catering facilities and Members' offices in phase 1 will be ready when the House returns from its summer adjournment. The Services Committee has agreed its initial brief for phase 2 and will report on this shortly to the House. It is hoped that construction work can begin in spring 1992 and the building be ready for occupation in 1996.

Mr. Coombs : I thank my right hon. Friend for that helpful answer. In view of the increasing number of right hon. and hon. Members who will use the accommodation in those two phases, as well as Norman Shaw North and South, will he tell us what is the latest thinking on the provision of a secure access from those buildings into the Palace of Westminster?

Mr. MacGregor : There will be new security arrangements for those buildings and that will apply immediately

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in phase 1. Direct secure access to the House from both will have to await completion of phase 2 in respect of completely secure access. The intention is to have secure access when phase 2 is completed.

Dr. Cunningham : Is not progress on providing new and better facilities painfully slow? Does the Leader of the House recognise that an interim solution might be to rent or lease space in existing buildings in the vicinity of the Palace of Westminster? In that regard, would he bring into use the building on the other side of Westminster bridge which was the former headquarters of the Greater London council? That building could be put to effective use for hon. Members, their staff and visitors. Would he also bring that building into a proper state of maintenance so that a a new London authority can reoccupy when we have a Labour Government?

Mr. MacGregor : First, as the hon. Gentleman knows, I am as keen as anyone to see progress on the provision of better facilities for hon. Members. There will be 65 Members offices in phase 1 which is coming in shortly. There will be another 25 Members offices as the Serjeant at Arms, the deputy Serjeant at Arms and Mr. Speaker's secretary vacate their present residences. That is a step forward.

To some extent phase 2 is involved with the Jubilee line and the changes to Westminster tube station for which a Bill is currently before the House. That complicates the issue. However, that is moving ahead and we are looking at alternative arrangements for moving people out as the changes take place from existing buildings across the road in Bridge street and also more generally. As the hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) is aware, I am currently considering additional facilities in the nearby vicinity. I do not believe that county hall is appropriate and I would certainly not be happy to see money spent to facilitate the return of the GLC which is the last thing we want for London.

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