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launch. He then sweeps out of the city before most people in Dundee are aware that he has been there. Usually the first inkling that the people in Dundee have that he has been in the city is when they turn on their televisions at night and realise that he was there earlier in the day.I understand why the Secretary of State may prefer that. He knows that he is neither popular nor charismatic, especially with Dundonians. It is always better to be safe than sorry, so why tell people in Dundee that he is coming to the city? It is best for him to get in and out of the city before people realise that he has been there. That is the safest way in which the Secretary of State can visit Dundee.
The man who is almost frightened to show his face in the city is the same person who will ultimately decide the level of local taxes in Dundee. He is the same person who will ultimately decide the level of local services in Dundee. He is the same person who has never stood for election at any level in Dundee and never will. The hon. Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart) stood for election in Dundee a long time ago. He registered a respectable 19,000 votes in the constituency of Dundee, East. May I remind him that the Tory candidate at the last election in Dundee registered an unhealthy 5, 000 votes? That is not to say that the hon. Member for Eastwood was a much better candidate than those who have stood in the years since. It simply reflects the fact that the Tory party is that much more unpopular than in the 1970s when he stood in the city.
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Mr. William McKelvey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) : On my hon. Friend's point about the Secretary of State sweeping into Dundee and sweeping out, perhaps the Secretary of State can do that with such alacrity because there are roads in and out of Dundee. The Secretary of State never comes to Kilmarnock because if he ever gets there, he will not get back up the A77 safely.
Mr. McAllion : My hon. Friend makes a fair point. I remind him that we have roads in and out of Dundee because we have a Labour administration in Tayside regional council which has made sure that we have roads.
We are expected to approve the powers given to the Secretary of State for Scotland in clause 2, knowing that that would give him the authority to cap local expenditure, not in accordance with criteria generally agreed in the House, agreed between the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and Scottish Office Ministers or agreed in any other way, but in accordance with criteria on which the Secretary of State for Scotland alone decides and on the basis of judgments which he alone makes.
Whatever happened to democracy, accountability and direct elections in Scotland? In this alleged Mother of Parliaments we are expected to pass a clause which effectively will be a licence to the Secretary of State for Scotland to exercise what my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) described on Second Reading as arbitrary authority. Unless we approve the limitations which the amendments propose on the powers available to the Secretary of State for Scotland, we shall give him unparalleled power at local government level and make a reality of what was once merely a political slogan--that the Secretary of State for Scotland was merely a
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colonial governor. If the Secretary of State is given the powers in the clause, he will be a colonial governor in Scotland.The limitations in the amendments are moderate--perhaps in keeping with my party these days. The amendments deal with moderate issues such as expenditure. If local government expenditure rises at less than the rate of inflation there should be no capping. I cannot understand why the Secretary of State for Scotland assumes that he would need to cap local government expenditure if it was rising at less than the rate of inflation.
The amendments also say that capping should be applied only where it is reasonable to do so. If the Secretary of State cannot accept that, he is telling the Committee that capping should be applied where it is unreasonable to do so and that he wishes to retain the power for the Secretary of State for Scotland unreasonably to cap local authorities throughout the length and breadth of Scotland. If that is what he is saying, I am sure that he will not say it very loudly when the general election comes.
Our limitations would also require that decisions on capping should not be made solely on the basis of the Secretary of State's judgment but that others should be involved in deciding what criteria should be applied where capping is thought to be the obvious route to take. The amendments also suggest that account should be taken of the new burdens placed on local authorities by central Government legislation. Surely that is a reasonable thing to ask.
The demands in the amendments are not excessive. By any standard they are sweet reason itself. If the Minister and the Government find it impossible to accept them, we must conclude that they are the people who are excessive, extreme and not fit to be in government. In the Government's arguments about the clause, especially on Second Reading, we heard a strange and novel doctrine being spun. It is the idea that local voters cannot be trusted to think for themselves and that they are not fit to decide who should be elected to their councils and who should make decisions about raising local revenue to pay for local services. We have been told that the Secretary of State for Scotland must decide for them, although he would describe it otherwise.
The Secretary of State once said--I think that it was in a statement to the House--that we were dealing with greater accountability to the national taxpayer rather than to the local taxpayer. But the problem with that argument is that the national taxpayers did not vote for the Secretary for Scotland either. So he does not have that democratic figleaf. Ministers are exercising power and making decisions at national and local level without ever having been elected either at local or national level in Scotland. That is the system which was described by Tory Members as unacceptable when it operated in eastern Europe, but which they use to mask their electoral weakness in Scotland and excuse their right to run Scotland without any democratic mandate.
Some Conservative Members referred to what they described as a breakdown of trust. The way in which the Government have operated in the past 11 to 12 years in Scotland is leading to a breakdown in trust in not only this Government but the entire system of government in Scotland. That is why the Tories are the only party in Scotland opposed to constitutional change and reform. For many reasons there must be constitutional reform in Scotland and a Scottish Parliament. One of the main
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reasons for the establishment of such a Scottish Parliament is the behaviour of the Government over the past 12 years and the way in which they have treated local government.Mr. Thomas Graham (Renfrew, West and Inverclyde) : I support amendment No. 41. I spent a great deal of time in local government and I clearly remember meeting local people who put into the system their thoughts about the types of buildings and services that they wanted. We based our programmes and policies on such an input, and when we fought elections the people voted for us. Throughout Scotland, local people argued their case and supported the political party of their choice.
Since 1979, the Government have committed the serial murder of local government. They have undermined the role not just of local government but of councillors. In the eyes of the public, they have made "councillor" a dirty word. The Government have accused them of not trying to deliver services and have used Parliament to mount a constant political attack on democratically elected councillors. That has caused a great loss of confidence in local government. The Government are beginning to rue the day that they started such an attack ; that is evident from the way in which they were decimated at the last local government elections in England.
I am extremely worried about the proposal to cap local government expenditure. In my constituency surgery at the weekend, I spoke to people from Houston who wish to see the construction of a local library. People in Kilbarchan would like to see the opening of a community centre, and people in Lochwinnoch would like a play area for their children. In almost every village in my constituency, people want amenities that will improve their quality of life. That is admirable. Hon. Members like to see local people taking an active interest in their surroundings and speaking to the appropriate people, such as local councillors and Members of Parliament.
The Minister knows that I am disturbed that services in my area are being hammered, not because of capping, but because of the Government's systematic underfunding of local government. That has meant that there are not enough places for the elderly in day care centres, and not enough home helps. The savage increase in concessionary fares is the result of the Government's deliberate underfunding of local government.
The Government have now produced a capping plan which, they say, will protect people and prevent them from paying too much. No one has ever come to my surgery complaining that he is paying too much for local services, but many people complain about the Government and about the savage attacks on local government funding. The Government seem to have a tremendous hatred for local government, which provides many essential services to our elderly, our disabled, our mentally handicapped and children living in bad conditions created by the Government's mad economic policies.
People face high interest charges, and mortgage rates are going through the roof ; families are made homeless and have to go to local authorities begging them to provide homes ; yet the Government are denuding local authorities of the finance to build houses for rent, and to provide the services that help children who come from families that are broken up because of high mortgage rates and unemployment. These factors put stresses and strains on
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family life as they do on local government. People want local government to act as Santa Claus, because the Government have failed them.Capping is an import from the far east--as far east as Russia. The Russians have been asking the Government to help in their economic policies, but it looks as though, instead, the Government are importing a totalitarian system and imposing controls on local government. Local government has become as misnomer. The struggle to keep local government is nearly over. The central control that George Orwell portrayed in "Nineteen-Eighty Four" is here, and has been approaching for a long time. Capping is just another step along that line.
The day of reckoning is around the corner. People want decent local government, with involvement by the local people. In my constituency, people are crying out for services to be provided. That will come about only if central Government allocate more funds to local government and allow local government to get its act together and to have the power to borrow and to build. If local government cannot do that, how will we have local government services? Such services need money. Instead of capping, the Government should be supporting those services.
This week, I saw one of the most successful films ever made, "The Silence of the Lambs". It has some analogies with what is going on. We have a cannibal Government who want to gobble up more and more power for themselves. However, we know that power corrupts. The Government's attitude towards local government is corrupt. It threatens the democratic process because it permeates to those who vote for local government. The Government want to impose the totalitarian system that is so beloved by all of them.
I am disgusted that we are capping rather than increasing local government expenditure. Increases would ensure that the services for the elderly and handicapped that local government has provided for many years would continue. The Minister has an opportunity, by supporting the amendment, to support common sense and decency, and to ensure that local government continues in its rightful place.
Dr. John Reid (Motherwell, North) : Tonight, those who have spoken have thrown what, if we were not in Parliament, would be called abuse at the Minister. Instead, we should perhaps compliment him on his forbearance and fortitude. I have never before known a human being who has managed to go through such a difficult time over local government finance, with so many twists and turns and U-turns, and remain smiling. There have been no tears of regret, and the Minister is smiling again. He reminds me of the words of an old song made famous by a constituent of mine, Sydney Devine, from Cleland, just down the road from Mr. MacGregor of Shotts. The words could be applied to the Minister :
"If they gave gold statuettes
For smiles of regret
He'd be a legend in his time."
The Minister has gone through the whole of this sorry story about local government finance smiling. The horror of the poll tax stands in contrast to that, and I need not enumerate it because all of us--presumably even the people of Eastwood--well know the problems caused by the poll tax. We meet those people in our surgeries. At times, we see grown men reduced to tears by frustration and despair.
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9.15 pmI will not go over those issues, because I wish to concentrate on one fundamental question as we consider the mechanics of poll tax capping. In the last year, we have seen not simply a change of tactics in capping, not an instrumental change in local government finance or even a change in the manner in which we deal with local government finance. The issue of capping gives rise to a fundamental change of principle by the Government.
A good start would be for the Minister to say whether he agrees with the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher), who said in recent days that she believed that the poll tax was correct in principle. If he agrees with that, we are in a peculiar position, for the fundamental principle of the poll tax was accountability. It was sold--or, rather, was not sold--by means of that propaganda or marketing too. All the suffering, impoverishment, indignity and frustration has been due to that one principle of accountability, to which, at least in her honesty, the right hon. Member for Finchley still sticks.
We were told that, for too long, local authorities had spent too much money, and that accountability was the only democratic way--through the ballot box--to stop it. For three years, the point was hammered home. A relationship was to be built in between electors, local councillors and local authorities and local spending. If, at the end of the day, a local authority spent too much of the money for which it was accountable to its electors, the electorate would exercise their judgment through the ballot box.
That fundamental principle was supported by the Minister, and for that principle the right hon. Member for Finchley was prepared to give her political life. I suspect that, although they now wish to renege on it, it is the principle on which the Government will founder, because of the way in which they implemented it.
Mr. Maxton : My hon. Friend rightly says that the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) was prepared to see her political career founder on the principle of the poll tax. But the author of the poll tax, the man who devised it and based his whole political career on it--the hon. Member for Stirling (Mr. Forsyth), the Minister of State--has not been prepared to sacrifice his political life for it.
Dr. Reid : The Minister of State has not graced us with his presence, despite his early role in developing the poll tax. No doubt he has other business elsewhere. I shall not make the same mistake as the Prime Minister and attack him when I do not know where he is. For all I know, he is dining with Her Majesty. Whatever his excuse for being absent tonight, we must ask the hon. Gentleman that fundamental question on this issue.
If the Government were committed to the principle--to which the right hon. Member for Finchley and apparently, because I think I see him nodding in assent, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary are still committed--how does that equate with the capping of local taxation? The matter is fundamentally incompatible. It is not possible to hold to the principle of the local accountability of the electorate on the one hand while saying, on the other, that central Government will dictate the level of local expenditure.
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Mr. Dickens : Does the hon. Gentleman recall the hon. Member for Renfrew, West and Inverclyde (Mr. Graham) saying that his council needed community centres, recreation grounds and libraries? Opposition Members blame the Government but why did not Labour councillors provide those facilities when there was a Labour Government? Why have they sat back for so many years and not provided those facilities? Why do Opposition Members suddenly decide that they want them and that the fact that they have not been provided is the Government's fault because we introduced legislation?
Dr. Reid : I was trying to deal with the strategic principles involved, but it is sometimes good to be dragged down to the local town halls to consider the important details. I shall discuss that principle in a moment. I do not suggest that local authorities should have carte blanche to spend Government money. The hon. Gentleman should question my remarks rather than those of other hon. Members. As always, I listened to my hon. Friend the Member for Renfrew, West and Inverclyde (Mr. Graham)--indeed, I hang on his words. He brought great intelligence and detail to our debate, and none of his comments was incompatible with my arguments.
For the past five years, the Government have been saying that local accountability is the way to solve the problem. Either they believe that that is true, or they believe that the problem will be solved by central Government diktat. There is a fundamental contradiction. It is not a matter of balance or compromise, or of the Government saying that they recognise the dual negotiating roles of local and central Government. If so, although we might not agree entirely with their policy, we might approach it within the same philosophical and practical framework.
No Opposition Member would suggest that an individual, far less whole groups of individuals who constitute local authorities, could possibly be islands unto themselves. That is the difference between Conservative and Opposition Members. We are collectivists and understand that we live in society. We must sometimes cope with an ex-Prime Minister who, 6,000 years after the first settlements in the Mesopotamian valley, still believes that there is no such thing as society. Perhaps that is the view of Conservative Members. We do not believe that individuals are free to have absolute rights, irrespective of the consequences.
We have been asked to accept not a balance between local and central Government but a diktat. It is not in opposition to local government spending willy-nilly : rather, the Government assert that the legislation should pass dictatorial fiscal powers, so that the Secretary of State can decide local authority spending without paying attention to local needs, opinion or democracy. That is not only unjust but also inefficient, because such decisions cannot be made sensibly and efficiently by people with no experience of areas such as mine and those of my hon. Friends the Members for Renfrew, West and Inverclyde and for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin).
I mean no personal criticism of the Minister. Let us suppose that the Ministers at the Scottish Office were not malevolent, that they were kind and just men. Even ascribing to them the most gentle, considerate and humane of approaches--if I can hold them in that fantasy world for a second --I do not believe that they could understand
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the needs of Springburn, Bellshill or Linwood as they ponder them while walking through the leafy groves of Edinburgh, West or Eastwood.Perhaps Ministers are flanked by permanent secretaries and civil servants who spend all their time running in and out of Bellshill, Dundee, Springburn or Clelland in the hope of seeing Sydney Devine. I doubt it. I suspect that, cocooned in the Scottish Office, we have Ministers from some of the most affluent areas of Scotland, surrounded by their social superiors, the civil servants, from even more affluent areas of Scotland. They make dictatorial decisions on matters that are vital to some of the most deprived and impoverished areas of Scotland. With the best will in the world, I do not believe that those Ministers, advised by those civil servants, can make decisions that are efficient or fair for local communities such as my own.
Even if a Labour Government were in power, and given our programmes and intentions, which are far better placed to assist constituents in areas such as mine, in all sincerity, we would be handicapped with the same civil servants. We can all learn lessons with the passage of time, and perhaps we could learn from some of the things that the right hon. Member for Finchley did. I am sure that we would not undertake a round of sackings and that we would not be dictatorial, but, in common with any other Government, we would expect to be surrounded by people who are committed to the general framework of our programme.
Even a Labour Government, with a committed programme that would be of far greater assistance to local authorities than that of the Government, would be handicapped if we took to ourselves the type of dictatorial power that the Minister is trying to take tonight. I hope that the Minister will reflect on that, even at this 59th minute of the 11th hour. I hope that, despite the U-turns he has already committed--no doubt it would embarrass him to do any more--he will think about withdrawing the Bill.
Mr. Michael J. Martin (Glasgow, Springburn) : In common with my hon. Friends, I feel that a disservice has been done to local government in recent years by the type of debate that the Government have initiated. We have had much talk about rate capping and local authority overspending, but such talk tends to highlight those authorities with a bad reputation. The Government have tried to give the impression that every authority is like that.
The hon. Member for Littleborough and Saddleworth (Mr. Dickens) asked where Labour local authorities were when the Labour Government were in power. It is a matter of public record that when Labour authorities were in power councillors were never out of St. Andrew's house and Whitehall arguing the corner for their cities.
Every stranger who comes to my native city of Glasgow, including hon. Members, says that a fantastic transformation has taken place.
Mr. McKelvey : Not in Easterhouse.
Mr. Martin : A lot of positive things are happening in Easterhouse-- tenant co-operatives have been established and it has a swimming pool, which the people of Springburn have wanted for years. Hon. Members who do not come from Glasgow have commented on how fantastic its transformation has been, due to the sandblasting, the garden festival, the waterfront development and the co-operation of the private sector. I hope that
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Conservative Members will give credit to local authorities that act positively. If they are prepared to hand out criticism, they should be prepared to give credit where it is due.9.30 pm
Like my hon. Friends, I am worried that if we keep turning the screw on local authorities we will not get in the House the talented men and women from local government that we have had in previous years. If they cannot serve their apprenticeship in local authorities, where will they come from? Many of those who have served the House well have had a good training in local government. I think that I am right in saying that our Prime Minister had experience as a councillor.
Mr. Home Robertson : Not a very good example.
Mr. Martin : Perhaps not, but the point was worth making. I served as a councillor in the constituency that I represent. Because of the nature of our activities here I cannot point to anything tangible that I have achieved as a Member of Parliament, but in the old ward that I represented I can point to a housing association which is thriving and with whose fights to obtain grants I was involved as a founder member. I can point to play areas and even to simple things such as fences or walls to give elderly people with disabilities more privacy. Over the years almost all councillors were able to point to such achievements--that is, until the Government began their attack on local authorities. The Government are undoing the good work that dedicated men and women did many years ago. I want to highlight the cases of three councillors who did an excellent job in the city of Glasgow. The first was John Main, who became provost of Glasgow in the late 1960s but who unfortunately died in office. He left school at 14 because his parents could not afford to keep him at school and as a result he was obsessed with seeing that every child in the local authority area had a good education. He worked night and day to see that excellent schools were built in Glasgow.
Councillor Gibb, my second example, was so appalled by the housing in Glasgow that he insisted that we build houses on every gap site. It is said that on a visit to a Glasgow art gallery when he was asked his opinion of a landscape painting he said, "That landscape is fantastic ; just think how many houses we could put on it." That shows how obsessed he was with seeing that people were given a decent chance in life.
A colleague of mine named Patrick Trainer, a senior councillor in Strathclyde who recently retired, had the foresight to recognise that since we were becoming more closely involved with the EEC the abattoirs in the city of Glasgow would have to be brought up to a certain standard. He fought tooth and nail to see that that was done and because of his work we have a good market that will be able to cope with 1992.
I mention these people because they and others will not have a chance to leave their mark on local authorities because the Government are stifling them. It is unfair for the Government to put such a restriction on local authorities when the Minister knows that they have statutory obligations and cannot just not spend money. My hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) has referred time and again in the
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House to the care of children. Local authorities have a statutory obligation to look after children. Regardless of councils' budgets, if children are in need they must find a home for them and give them food and shelter.The Government have turned their back on the homeless in our society and that has put more and more pressure on Strathclyde regional social work department and Glasgow district housing department. The Minister also knows that police officers' wages are not negotiated by councillors ; they are subject to national negotiation. The city treasurer must keep his or her fingers crossed on the outcome of negotiations in London with the Police Federation. The matter does not end there, because every local authority worker has a basic wage which has to be negotiated nationally. I know that the Government want to destroy national negotiations, but if they do so the people who will suffer will be the workers in the constituency of the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mrs. Michie) where there will be high unemployment. Local negotiations will mean a cut in the wages and conditions of hard-working men and women who do not have a good wage to begin with.
I have heard members of the Scottish National party talking about the difficulties of local authorities. They say that the Government should give local autonomy a chance. I do not dispute the view that those who are elected by the community should have a say, but the weakness of the SNP case is demonstrated by the fact that men and women outside Strathclyde came into Strathclyde and told the electorate not to pay the poll tax when the elected councillors were saying, "We do not agree with the poll tax, but if you do not pay it where will the money for the services come from?" That weakens the case of people such as the hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Mr. Douglas) who was elected by the people of Dunfermline as a Labour Member of Parliament and has not gone before them to say that, whereas he was elected as a Labour Member, he is no longer a member of that party.
Two things are worrying local councillors, as anyone who speaks to them will know. The first is what the Government are doing at the moment, and the second is that because the poll tax is not coming in they are having to consider shedding labour. Those who knew the consequences of not paying the poll tax, despite their dislike of it--we all disliked it--and call themselves trade unionists should hang their heads in shame. The consequences of their actions will be that men and women in my constituency where unemployment is rife will be forced out of a job.
At one time we had a railway industry which was a big employer, but, because of Government policy which led to the closure of that industry, the only thing the workers had to turn to was local government. Those who were lucky enough to find a job in India street or down in the city chambers were grateful for it. Those who supported the anti-poll tax campaign have not assisted those workers who are out of a job.
The Minister must obviously consider his Department's overall expenditure, because, whatever may be his view of the way in which local authorities handle their affairs, if the councillors give up and--God forbid that this should ever happen--tell the Minister, "Take your services and
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run them from St. Andrew's house," he will be confronted with even more problems than local authorities have now. He would not do a better job, and the bottom line would be a greater cost to the taxpayer and ratepayer.Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Port Glasgow) : We have just listened to a characteristically powerful speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin). I thank him for his kind reference to some of the work that I have been doing. I support amendments Nos. 41, 3, and 46. Unlike other hon. Members who spoke about diminishing local autonomy and democracy, I want to explain why I believe that the amendments will improve clause 2, to the benefit of the more vulnerable people in my constituency. Amendments Nos. 3 and 46 emphasise the need to protect vulnerable citizens in our communities. The hon. Member for Gordon (Mr. Bruce) spoke of the importance of ensuring the welfare of local communities. Amendment No. 3, moved by the hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Mr. Douglas), emphasises the importance of providing protection for certain groups. Paragraph (1) states :
"In determining whether an increase in expenses by a local authority is excessive, the Secretary of State shall have regard to :
(a) The level of unemployment in the area in the preceding three years".
According to Government statistics, unemployment in my constituency is running at 13 per cent., and I see no sign that that dreadful statistic will be alleviated in the near future.
Amendment No. 3 refers also to
"the condition of the housing stock and the numbers on the housing waiting lists".
The condition of many houses on the lower Clyde is nothing short of disgraceful in terms of damp--let alone the poor quality of materials that were used in the construction of those properties 40, 50 or even 60 years ago. However, Inverclyde district council has been denied assistance by the odd job lot at the Scottish Office and their officials. People come to my surgery to complain about the dampness, which, among other things, presents a very real health
hazard--especially to young children and elderly.
Amendment No. 3 refers also to the need to protect those in receipt of income support, one-parent families, and the disabled and handicapped. Strathclyde's social work department seeks to protect the vulnerable in our communities, but its fine, decent work has been severely constrained by Government cuts in the past, and it will be even more damaged in the future. Section 12 of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968 allows social workers to provide financial assistance for families in need. Area teams are involved and the district manager of the social work department is given a budget each year to tide people over for a few days.
Recently, a young woman came to see me with her two young children. She had suffered appalling domestic violence, and was anxious to escape from a psychopathic husband. She needed money to get out of the area and go to close relatives who would protect her. The social work manager, or one of his team, was able to help, and she and her children escaped.
The present Government have cut that budget and will cut it again. Children will be affected. It is important to draw attention to the diminution of local autonomy and democracy that Scottish Office Ministers have inflicted on our communities. We must remember, however, that the
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serious damage that they have done to the more vulnerable members of society will go against them come the election : they will be driven out of office, which is what they deserve.9.45 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Allan Stewart) : We shall, of course, follow up the specific points raisedby the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) and others. First, however, let me address some remarks to the hon. Members for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin) and for Renfrew, West and Inverclyde (Mr. Graham). I pay genuine tribute to many Scottish councils and councillors, whose work for the community is often not appreciated sufficiently. The hon. Member for Renfrew, West and Inverclyde, who is not in the Chamber now, will know--as will the hon. Members for Paisley, North (Mrs. Adams) and for Paisley, South (Mr. McMaster)--that I have never personally attacked councillors of any political persuasion in either Eastwood district or Renfrew district ; and the two districts differ politically.
The question of resources is not the key issue in today's debate ; I must point out, however, that aggregate external finance has risen this year by 10.4 per cent.
I confirm that clause 2 would strengthen and widen the Secretary of State's capping powers in Scotland. I believe that that is essential to protect local taxpayers from the excessive spending of local authorities which--or so experience suggests--occurs during a changeover from one local authority finance system to another. This year, many Scottish authorities have set community charges in flagrant disregard of the true interests of their charge payers. That is not true of all local authorities, but it is true of a number. It must be Government's duty to ensure that the fundamental shift in the balance of taxation brought about by the Community Charges (General Reduction) Act 1991 has the intended effect of keeping local taxes down to a reasonable level, and is not used to fund higher spending. The new local level of charges made possible by this measure must be passed on to local people. That is why, in the last year of the community charge system, we are moving to increase central Government's powers to control total expenditure. That is entirely reasonable, although, as the hon. Member for Gordon (Mr. Bruce) pointed out, the new system will involve less accountability. The hon. Members for Gordon, for Motherwell, North (Dr. Reid) and for Dundee, East (Mr. McAllion)--I gather that I am always welcome in Dundee--mentioned trust. Let me confirm that the Secretary of State will make a declaratory statement in the autumn about capping criteria, well ahead of local authorities' setting their budgets. One criticism has been made-- [Interruption.] I can give hon. Members an absolute assurance that the criteria will be published by the end of November at the latest, and our intention--
Mr. Stewart : The authorities do not set their budgets until next January. We will give the information by the end of November, and we hope to do so by the end of October or the middle of November. That is a perfectly reasonable timetable.
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Mr. Douglas : We are in a transitional period. A timetable that may have been appopriate in relation to setting budgets in the past is not appropriate given the dislocation that local authorities are suffering. Cannot the Minister reconsider his dates and give the information--in consultation with COSLA, of course--well before the time that he mentioned?
Mr. Stewart : Of course we shall consult COSLA, but we are talking about budgets for 1992-93. We aim to announce and publicise the criteria by the end of October or early November, long before the budgetary process of authorities really gets under way.
Dr. Reid : Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Stewart : I shall give way, but the House will appreciate that we are pushed for time.
Dr. Reid : The Minister must know that when he talks about October and November, there is a suspicion that he may be putting the decision off further and further because the Government are 6 per cent. behind in the opinion polls. [ Hon. Members :-- "Ten per cent."] Will the hon. Gentleman assure us that, when he reads tomorrow morning in The Guardian that they are 10 per cent. behind, we shall not find that his timetable has been postponed until March or even June? Will he confirm that the timetable is final?
Mr. Stewart : That was a risible intervention. I thought that I was being helpful to the House in setting out a reasonable timetable. I recognise the point that amendment No. 41, the lead Opposition amendment, was intended to draw to the attention of the House, but the yardstick suggested--apart from the fact that it would not take account of any authority already budgeting well in excess of the grant-aided expenditure figure--would not cover the possibility that, as in the current year, inflation could fall sharply between the time that the budgets were set and the start of the year in question. I--and all other local taxpayers--have the right to expect authorities setting their budgets to take into account forecasts of a fall in inflation for the year ahead.
Mr. Maxton : One of the factors built in to the Abolition of Domestic Rates Etc. (Scotland) Act 1987 from the word go was the use of the retail prices index when setting the business rate--the non-domestic rate-- in Scotland. What the Minister describes could have happened then. If the principle of using the retail prices index as a guide was right then, why is it wrong now?
Mr. Stewart : The reason for the inflation limit on increases in the business rate was to protect the business community. The limit was, of course, determined by the retail prices index for the year to the previous September. The hon. Gentleman is suggesting a limit based on the current RPI figure in March or April. That figure could move sharply one way of the other in the subsequent year. The hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Mr. Douglas) made an extremely well-informed speech. Most of what he said about the client group approach as a basis for determining grant-aided expenditure was right.
Mr. Maxton : An unholy alliance.
Mr. Stewart : There is no unholy alliance. The hon. Member for Dunfermline, West was the only person here who took the relevant documents out of the Library for
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