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the debate. I can assure him that in taking into account the client group mechanism as the basis for determining GAE, we arrrive at the figures using--as he knows--a large number of indicators. Indeed, all the indicators outlined in the amendment, except those on housing, are taken into account. The hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow also mentioned housing, but housing expenditure is not strictly relevant because it is determined separately. That applies to amendment No. 46, which is similar but more general. GAE is used as a basis for grant distribution.

I was astonished by some of the attacks that the hon. Member for East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) made on the grant distribution system. It is agreed through the distribution committee of the local government finance working party--

Mr. O'Brien : What about the level?

Mr. Stewart : The hon. Member for East Lothian criticised the distribution, not the level. Distribution is agreed by the distribution committee. That technical matter is agreed between COSLA and Scottish Office officials in the light of advice, and the criteria and formulae are constantly re-evaluated. The hon. Member for East Lothian attacked COSLA as much as he attacked the Government.

Lothian's grant-aided expenditure is lower per head than that of regions such as Strathclyde, but it has a lower proportion of school pupils in education authority schools. Compared to Strathclyde, Lothian is relatively prosperous ; it is a relatively small, compact region. It does not have sparsely populated areas such as those in Dumfries and Galloway.

The formulae that have been criticised by Opposition Members are agreed by COSLA. They are not imposed and there are clear social differences between Lothian and Strathclyde, which suggest that it is sensible to have higher grant per head for regions such as Strathclyde. Opposition Members have not advanced a formula that could be used by COSLA and Scottish Office officials to change the distribution formulae.

Opposition Members discussed the general policy issues raised by clause 2 but did not offer any clear policy. On Second Reading, the hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) said that the previous Labour Government passed section 5 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1966 to introduce a form of rate capping for excessive and unreasonable expenditure. That is being changed in the Bill, but does the hon. Member for Cathcart support what the previous Labour Government did in Scotland or what the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould), whom I am glad to see present, said--that there should not be any such powers?

The Opposition are unclear on that central point. In contrast, the Government's position is absolutely clear. Experience shows that local authorities can use the transitional year sharply to increase spending. That must not happen in 1992-93, and under clause 2 it will not happen. The criteria will be clear and will be published well in advance so that local authorities can take them fully into account when setting budgets. The purpose of clause 2 is to give community charge payers in Scotland the same safeguards against excessive spending as people in

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England and Wales. Those safeguards are necessary. On that basis, I ask hon. Members to resist the amendments and to support clause 2.

Mr. Maxton : We might have expected such a speech from the Minister. Throughout the poll tax fiasco, the cry of the Minister, of the Secretary of State and of Michael Ancram when he was a Minister was that accountability was the purpose of the poll tax. They said that it would make local authorities accountable. I remember raising in debates on schedule 3 to the Abolition of Domestic Rates Etc. (Scotland) Act 1987 exactly the issue that we are debating tonight : why, if the aim of the poll tax was accountability, does the Secretary of State require this power? We were told that it was a reserve power which would never be used. Tonight, the Minister is turning the whole issue on its head and is twisting and turning all his principles to try to get out of a very difficult situation. It has been an interesting debate. Until the Minister made his contribution, almost the whole debate took place among members of the Opposition parties. Until the hon. Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) came to the Chamber, not one--

It being Ten o'clock, The Chairman-- left the Chair to report Progress and ask leave to sit again.

Committee reported Progress.

Ordered,

That, at this day's sitting, the Local Government Finance and Valuation Bill may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.-- [Mr. Boswell.]

Again considered in Commitee.

Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.

Mr. Maxton : As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted-- [ Hon. Members :-- "Withdraw."] As I was saying before I was interrupted, until the hon. Member for Dumfries walked in at about 9.50 pm not one Scottish Back-Bench Tory debated the issues involved-- [Interruption.] If the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, the hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key) had been here instead of going to have his dinner, he would have realised how many members of the Opposition had spoken. It is clear that the Scottish Tory party is not interested in local democracy or in what happens in the local councils. It is concerned only about its own power and its position in Scotland. I should have thought that some Scottish Tories might have been prepared to make a speech in defence of local government in Scotland, because it might be one way to save their seats.

Mr. Home Robertson : Geoffrey Dickens did.

Mr. Maxton : My hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) is quite right. The one Back-Bench Tory who spoke during the whole debate was the hon. Member for Littleborough and Saddleworth (Mr. Dickens). He was not aware that we do not have parish councils in Scotland, but it was interesting that the one short speech made by a Tory Back Bencher was in favour of the amendments. He rightly said that local authorities should decide what they spend, and what services they provide. Why did not other Scottish Tory Members of Parliament also say that?

I am delighted to hear that the Secretary of State will make a declaratory statement--although I have never heard that phrase--about the criteria that are to be used. I assume that such a statement is a statement to the House- -or is it something about which I know nothing?

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Mr. Allan Stewart : Wait and see.

Mr. Maxton : I am being told to wait and see. The Minister used the term "declaratory statement" in his speech. Will he tell me what it meant? Will it be a statement to the House? It is most interesting that the Secretary of State can make whatever statements he likes to the House about the criteria, but he is under no statutory obligation to stick to them. The distrust in local Government in Scotland of the Secretary of State and of the Minister is such that, whatever they say in the House, those in local government are unlikely to believe them. They know that, when the time comes and when the chips are down, the Ministers will, if necessary change the criteria. We do not want declaratory statements : we want a schedule to the Bill specifying the criteria in statute, so that we can debate them and vote on them, and so that, if necessary, they can be changed. If the criteria were passed in legislation, the Minister would have to stick to them. That will not be the case.

Yet again, the Secretary of State is setting the criteria and saying what is to be considered excessive. The Secretary of State has the power. Nobody else is to be involved in the whole decision-making process. The Secretary of State is now taking power into his own hands, which makes a mockery of local democracy, and of the rights of people in Scotland to decide what they want and how they take decisions. The debate is about local democracy and about accountability. That is why I want to force the amendment to a vote, and I ask my hon. Friends to join me in doing so.

Mr. Douglas rose--

Hon. Members : No.

Mr. Douglas : Many hon. Members have not come in to listen to the debate and they have not heard the inadequate reply by the Minister. I asked a specific question about grant-aided expenditure, and about the criteria. It is evident from the Minister's inadequate reply that the Secretary of State intends to use a device that is for the purposes of capping. The Minister's reply suggests that the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities is right and that we are moving in the direction that it has described. That move should be deplored.

Question put, That the amendment be made :--

The House divided : Ayes 213, Noes 286.

Division No. 165] [10.7 om

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley, N.)

Allen, Graham

Alton, David

Anderson, Donald

Archer, Rt Hon Peter

Armstrong, Hilary

Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

Ashton, Joe

Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)

Barron, Kevin

Battle, John

Beckett, Margaret

Beith, A. J.

Bell, Stuart

Bellotti, David

Benn, Rt Hon Tony

Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

Benton, Joseph

Bermingham, Gerald

Blair, Tony

Blunkett, David

Boateng, Paul

Boyes, Roland

Bradley, Keith

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)

Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)

Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Buckley, George J.

Caborn, Richard

Callaghan, Jim

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)

Canavan, Dennis

Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)

Carr, Michael

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Column 874

Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

Clelland, David

Clwyd, Mrs Ann

Cohen, Harry

Cryer, Bob

Cummings, John

Cunliffe, Lawrence

Cunningham, Dr John

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)

Dewar, Donald

Dixon, Don

Doran, Frank

Douglas, Dick

Duffy, A. E. P.

Dunnachie, Jimmy

Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth

Eastham, Ken

Edwards, Huw

Evans, John (St Helens N)

Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)

Fatchett, Derek

Faulds, Andrew

Fearn, Ronald

Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n)

Flynn, Paul

Foot, Rt Hon Michael

Foster, Derek

Foulkes, George

Fraser, John

Fyfe, Maria

Garrett, John (Norwich South)

Garrett, Ted (Wallsend)

Godman, Dr Norman A.

Golding, Mrs Llin

Gordon, Mildred

Gould, Bryan

Graham, Thomas

Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

Grocott, Bruce

Hain, Peter

Hardy, Peter

Harman, Ms Harriet

Haynes, Frank

Heal, Mrs Sylvia

Healey, Rt Hon Denis

Hinchliffe, David

Hoey, Ms Kate (Vauxhall)

Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

Home Robertson, John

Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)

Hughes, John (Coventry NE)

Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

Hughes, Roy (Newport E)

Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

Illsley, Eric

Ingram, Adam

Janner, Greville

Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Mo n)

Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

Kennedy, Charles

Kirkwood, Archy

Lambie, David

Lamond, James

Leadbitter, Ted

Leighton, Ron

Lestor, Joan (Eccles)

Lewis, Terry

Litherland, Robert

Livingstone, Ken

Livsey, Richard

Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

Loyden, Eddie

McAllion, John

McAvoy, Thomas

McCartney, Ian

Macdonald, Calum A.

McFall, John

McKelvey, William

McLeish, Henry

Maclennan, Robert

McMaster, Gordon

McWilliam, John

Madden, Max

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Marek, Dr John

Marshall, David (Shettleston)

Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

Martlew, Eric

Maxton, John

Meacher, Michael

Meale, Alan

Michael, Alun

Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute)

Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)

Moonie, Dr Lewis

Morgan, Rhodri

Morley, Elliot

Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

Mowlam, Marjorie

Mullin, Chris

Murphy, Paul

Nellist, Dave

Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

O'Brien, William

O'Hara, Edward

O'Neill, Martin

Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

Parry, Robert

Patchett, Terry

Pendry, Tom

Pike, Peter L.

Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

Prescott, John

Primarolo, Dawn

Quin, Ms Joyce

Radice, Giles

Randall, Stuart

Redmond, Martin

Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn

Reid, Dr John

Richardson, Jo

Rooker, Jeff

Rooney, Terence

Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

Rowlands, Ted

Ruddock, Joan

Salmond, Alex

Sedgemore, Brian

Sheerman, Barry

Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

Shore, Rt Hon Peter

Short, Clare

Skinner, Dennis

Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury)

Smith, J. P. (Vale of Glam)

Soley, Clive

Spearing, Nigel

Steel, Rt Hon Sir David

Steinberg, Gerry

Stott, Roger

Straw, Jack

Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Thomas, Dr Dafydd Elis

Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)

Turner, Dennis

Vaz, Keith

Wallace, James

Walley, Joan

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