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Mr. Blunkett : We believe that the people of a locality should be allowed to protect themselves from this or any other Government. In other words, when people vote in local elections, they should have some chance of seeing their votes matter. If not, and if whatever people do the Government of the day believe that they must protect people from themselves, what is the point of holding local elections? Why not appoint gauleiters? We realise that the
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Secretary of State had that in mind but that the Cabinet felt that it was not appropriate to admit it before a general election. Largesse would be passed down via an elected mayor to local people and the mayor would have to do a deal with the Secretary of State, presumably over dinner in the evening. Unlike his predecessor, who was in favour of long lunches in the United States where contracts would be made, the present Secretary of State prefers dinners and wine in the evenings.It is a pretty poor state of affairs when a Government believe that they have to protect the electorate from the electorate. It is only fair to point out that, far from becoming milder and more consensual--I said consensual, by the way--and far from believing in public service and public spending, the Government's attitude has become worse. On 25 April 1988, the Minister I quoted earlier, the right hon. and learned Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard), said :
"The people of an area certainly will be able to vote for a relatively high -spending authority if they so choose."--[ Official Report , 25 April 1988 ; Vol. 132, c. 51.]
In the debate on this Bill in June 1991, in the run-up to an election, when we are told that we have a Prime Minister who is more gentle and caring and who believes in public service, quality and spending, we have an even tighter, more bureaucratic and centralist regime in which everyone must be whipped into line. The same is true of the future.
How are the proposed council tax figures made up and what are the criteria for them? Exactly what will councils be held to? The Minister said that his outline figures, which illustrated what would have been the case this year, will be used in future. He said that councils that levy greater sums than those which have been laid down will be brought into line progressively. He should have said regressively.
Long-term capping and spending reductions, cuts in education, leisure, the environment, libraries, transport and the social services are all prefaced by the promise made by the Minister. There will be cuts to reduce the figure to the projected council tax level, which the Government dreamed up out of the blue and wrote on the back of an envelope when the chairman of the Conservative party made his amazing pronouncement on the "Today" programme on which my hon. Friend the Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) delivered the coup de grace.
Mr. Blunkett : I do not often speak French because, as the Minister says, my accent leaves something to be desired. Unlike some people, I do not spend enough time perfecting it in France. [An hon. Member :-- "Would the hon. Gentleman like a villa?"] I accept that offer without equivocation.
Mr. William O'Brien (Normanton) : It was Aston Villa.
Mr. Blunkett : Do not mention Aston Villa to me.
We shall not divide the Committee on the amendment, not because we do not feel strongly about it but because we know that we have to make progress. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
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4.30 pmMr. Paul Murphy (Torfaen) : I beg to move amendment No. 2, in page 1, line 7, leave out which' and insert so far as it'.
The Chairman : With this, it will be convenient to consider amendment No. 1, in page 1, line 8, leave out or Welsh'.
Mr. Murphy : The amendments seek to exempt Wales from the extension of poll tax capping to authorities with budgets of less than £15 million. It surprises me and my hon. Friends in Welsh constituencies that the legislation is necessary at all, because to date no Welsh local authority has been capped or is likely to be capped. The previous Secretary of State for Wales, the right hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker), announced on 3 April last year that he had determined principles for designating authorities for charge limitation similar to those determined for England.
On the basis of those principles, about which we never knew, the right hon. Gentleman decided not to designate any Welsh local authorities. Therefore, we never knew which Welsh local authorities might have been designated, because no one was told the principles of the criteria for capping in Wales. We thought that the present Secretary of State for Wales would change everything and would publish the capping criteria for Welsh local authorities, but on 31 October he said that he would not announce such criteria, and we are still effectively in the dark.
The Minister for Local Government and Inner Cities said that English local authorities would be able to avoid being capped, because they know exactly what caused capping, Welsh councils are not able to do that, because they are not given any details. I sincerely hope that the Under-Secretary will give us some hint whether, as poll tax capping will apply to all Welsh authorities, the Bill will mean that we in Wales will know what the criteria are.
Until today, only a few districts in Wales--Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Rhondda--and the county councils were eligible for capping. The Bill will extend that eligibility to every one of the 37 Welsh districts, and to all the Welsh county councils. Many in Welsh local government feel that there are other reasons why no criteria for Wales have been published. We want to know why we have to follow the English example although we have not followed England in publishing criteria.
The irony is that Welsh local authorities--both district and county--have had responsible and well managed budgets. They have not overspent and they do not have anywhere near the mismanagement that would require capping. They have reacted responsibly to the Government's taunts. Over the past few years, while they have had to respond to the enormous problems created by the poll tax, they have reacted in a way that should be followed by local authorities throughout the United Kingdom, but they have had little thanks for that.
Now they are being told--to use French in my turn--that they are the betes noires of local government. That is despite their responsible behaviour and despite the tremendous jobs they have done, given the enormous financial and economic pressures under which they have had to operate. Now, they are being told that they cannot be trusted by the Government in the matter of the budgets for which they are responsible over the next couple of years.
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The right hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker) and the present Secretary of State for Wales have both said, not only on the Floor of the House and in Committee but outside in the Principality, that the relationship between Welsh local government and the Welsh Office has been exemplary. The two have worked together on the local economy, for jobs, and for the valleys initiative. None of that squares with the fact that local authorities have now slavishly to follow England and are regarded as the betes noires of local government. There is no demand for capping from local government, electors, institutions, academics or the majority of political parties in the Principality. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett) referred to the right hon. and learned Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard). Day in and day out, week in and week out, my hon. Friend and I had to listen to the right hon. and learned Gentleman's arguments in favour of the poll tax and to his explanations of why it was so great. He said :"The community charges levied by those authorities will generally make up only a fraction of the total local community charge when the precept of other authorities is taken into account. From the point of view, therefore, of protecting local charge payers, it seems unnecessary to keep such authorities in the field for charge limitation."--[ Official Report, Standing Committee E ; 17 March 1988, c. 1491]
There was a Welshman from Llanelli, albeit one who had gone to Folkestone, telling us that there was no need for the majority of Welsh councils to be subject to this ludicrous poll tax capping. Wales is not demanding capping. Nor does it want the Bill. It wants an end to the poll tax in the Principality. There has been in the last couple of years an enormous outcry in the Principality about the unfairness of the poll tax, which has offended the Welsh sense of fair play.
Of particular concern to Welsh local government--because it could bring them within the criteria for poll tax capping--is the amount of money that has been spent in the Principality to set up, administer and sweeten the poll tax. Over £100 million has been deliberately wasted by the Government in that relatively small country as the Welsh Office and its Ministers tried to administer a tax that had no public support.
The tragedy of that is that, according to the Council of Welsh Districts, we could be landed with the tax not, as the Government have said, until 1993 but possibly until 1994. The reality of that is perhaps somewhat different, bearing in mind that there will not be a Conservative Government in 1994. From 1992, Labour will be in power. Meanwhile, the present plan of the Welsh Office is to extend the poll tax, and Welsh councils are reporting that it will not be possible for them to change over to the council tax in time for 1993. We are told that the whole purpose of the legislation is to increase accountability. The consultation paper, which I assume applies to Wales as well as England, says :
"It will avoid the risk of a repeat of the substantial increase in spending which accompanied the transition to the community charge." What increase ? There was no increase in the Principality, other than what had to be spent to set up the poll tax.
The only accountability, as my hon. Friends have argued, is through the ballot box, and in May, in the one local authority in Wales which Conservative Members had argued should be capped--the capital city, Cardiff --we saw the Conservatives swept out of office. Labour won the city through the ballot box, despite the Conservatives
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arguing that the city council should be poll tax-capped. If ever there was a case for realising that accountability is through democratic means and not through the nonsense of poll tax capping, that was proved in the capital of Wales in the local elections last May.Wales should be exempted from this mean Bill because in the Principality it is unwanted and unnecessary, and it will be unloved. It will do nothing to improve the accountability of Welsh local authorities or their services in education, housing, transport and social services. Nothing in the Bill will improve the quality of life of the people in the Principality. It will sour relations even more between central and local government in Wales.
The only way to achieve a revitalised Welsh local government structure is proper accountability through annual elections, a proper fair rating system and unitary all-purpose authorities. Within the next two or three years, with the return of a Labour Government, all those things will become a reality.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Nicholas Bennett) : This group of amendments seeks to confine the practical application of the clause to England. It would deny to the charge payers of Wales the protection afforded by the Bill to the charge payers of England.
The existing law on charge capping in section 101 of the Local Government Finance Act 1988 applies equally to Wales and England. The provisions of this measure will do the same. There can be no possible justification for treating Wales and England differently. All authorities in Wales, regardless of how large or small their budgets may be, have a duty to their charge payers to exercise prudence and restraint in formulating their expenditure plans.
The Bill gives my right hon. Friend power to act in the interests of charge payers with any authority in Wales that may not budget sensibly, thereby imposing an unreasonable burden on its charge payers. My right hon. Friend did not cap any Welsh authority in 1991-92, and I hope that it will not be necessary for him to do so in future years, but he has made it clear that he will not hesitate to use his powers if he considers it necessary to do so.
4.45 pm
The hon. Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) talked in mock indignation about the fury of the people of Wales. That fury is so confined that he has sitting with him on the Opposition Front Bench only one of his hon. Friends from Wales, plus one Back Bencher who has just wandered in. That is the strength of the Labour party's opposition to the clause and support for its amendments.
Mr. Murphy : How many Conservative Members are here to support the Minister?
Mr. Bennett : We are content with the Bill as it is. The hon. Gentleman has tabled amendments but few of his hon. Friends are here to support them. That says something for the bogus indignation of the Labour party on this issue.
The hon. Member for Torfaen asked about the future criteria which may be set. The Secretary of State for Wales did not announce provisional criteria for capping in advance of budget setting by authorities. For 1992-93, my right hon. Friend will wish to consult authorities on the issue in advance of an announcement on the criteria for capping which he is minded to adopt. I should make it
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clear that that in no way diminishes his determination to take vigorous capping action should it prove necessary to do so. The hon. Member for Torfaen said that all authorities in Wales had been moderate. I wish that were true. The average charge set in Wales in 1991-92 was £261, a full £33 above the community charge standard spending--the CCSS--and £29 higher than that set in 1990-91. Within that, districts, including communities, set an average charge of £51, about £13 above their CCSS component ; and counties set an average charge of £211, about £21 above their CCSS component.It is clear that some authorities have not been as prudent as they might have been. It is vital that in this measure, which applies to England and Wales, we should not exempt local authorities in Wales from being prudent in future years, that community charge payers should have the protection afforded to them now, and that that should be extended to authorities with budgets of £15 million or less. These amendments would introduce into the statutory provisions relating to charge capping an inconsistency between England and Wales when none now exists. They would deny to Welsh charge payers the comprehensive protection that the Bill seeks to provide for Wales and England alike. I urge the Committee to reject them.
Mr. Murphy : What the Minister said did not surprise me. Even so, the majority of Welsh Members do not share his view that Welsh local government is in any sense profligate. Indeed, the Secretary of State has often made play of the fact that the Welsh poll tax figures are considerably lower than those in England. That has happened not as a result of Government grant but because Welsh local authorities are goodhousekeepers.
There seems no reason why we should follow the English example and accept these provisions. There is no reason why we should not be inconsistent and have a rule in Wales that is different from that which applies in England. After all, the Welsh local government structure is separate, the revenue support grant is dealt with separately, and there is a separate association level in Wales which apparently has been working well.
Despite all that, the Minister tells us that threats will continue to be used against Welsh local government. It will do no good for anybody in the Principality slavishly to follow a bad English example. We have tonight an opportunity for hon. Members who represent the Principality, and others, to show clearly that the only way in which local government is accountable to its electors is through the ballot box. That is why we shall divide the Committee on this group of amendments.
Question put, That the amendment be made :--
The Committee divided : Ayes 195, Noes 264.
Division No. 162] [4.48 pm
AYES
Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley, N.)
Allen, Graham
Alton, David
Anderson, Donald
Archer, Rt Hon Peter
Armstrong, Hilary
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Ashley, Rt Hon Jack
Ashton, Joe
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)
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Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Beckett, Margaret
Beith, A. J.
Bell, Stuart
Bellotti, David
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)
Benton, Joseph
Bermingham, Gerald
Blair, Tony
Blunkett, David
Boateng, Paul
Bradley, Keith
Bray, Dr Jeremy
Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Buckley, George J.
Caborn, Richard
Callaghan, Jim
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)
Canavan, Dennis
Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)
Carr, Michael
Cartwright, John
Clark, Dr David (S Shields)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Cohen, Harry
Cook, Robin (Livingston)
Corbett, Robin
Cryer, Bob
Cummings, John
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Cunningham, Dr John
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)
Dewar, Donald
Dixon, Don
Dobson, Frank
Doran, Frank
Douglas, Dick
Duffy, A. E. P.
Dunnachie, Jimmy
Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth
Eastham, Ken
Edwards, Huw
Evans, John (St Helens N)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)
Fatchett, Derek
Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n)
Flynn, Paul
Foot, Rt Hon Michael
Foster, Derek
Foulkes, George
Fyfe, Maria
Galbraith, Sam
Garrett, John (Norwich South)
Garrett, Ted (Wallsend)
Godman, Dr Norman A.
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mildred
Gould, Bryan
Graham, Thomas
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Hain, Peter
Hardy, Peter
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Haynes, Frank
Heal, Mrs Sylvia
Henderson, Doug
Hoey, Ms Kate (Vauxhall)
Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)
Home Robertson, John
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)
Hughes, John (Coventry NE)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Ingram, Adam
Janner, Greville
Johnston, Sir Russell
Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W)
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Kennedy, Charles
Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil
Kirkwood, Archy
Lambie, David
Lamond, James
Leighton, Ron
Lewis, Terry
Litherland, Robert
Livingstone, Ken
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)
Loyden, Eddie
McAllion, John
McCartney, Ian
Macdonald, Calum A.
McFall, John
McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)
McKelvey, William
McLeish, Henry
McMaster, Gordon
McWilliam, John
Madden, Max
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Marek, Dr John
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)
Martlew, Eric
Maxton, John
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