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Column 1008

New clause 7

Reduction of service

The Secretary of State shall not designate an English or Welsh authority as a result of this Act without publishing a list of services that it is expected the relevant authority will need to reduce as a result of designation'.-- [Mr. Bellotti.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr. Harold Walker) : With this, it will be convenient to take new clause 11-- Reduction of services (Scotland) --

The Secretary of State shall not designate a Scottish authority as a result of this Act without publishing a list of services that it is expected the relevant authority will need to reduce as a result of designation.'.

Mr. Bellotti : The new clauses will ensure that local people know who is responsible when local services are cut. They are designed to heighten accountability so that there is a clear link between action that affects local residents and those who make the decision. If the Government intend to override the democratic decisions of local councils, it should be made clear to everyone where the consequences of that action will lie. Councils may even find it useful to know what priority the Government would attach to their local services. For example, they may like to know whether the Government believe that housing repairs are more important than home helps or whether libraries are more important than swimming pools. It would be useful for a local authority to know whether, once the Bill is enacted, the Government will still require a local authority to fulfil all the statutory legislation that the Government have heaped on local councils in the past 12 years on environmental protection, mandatory improvement grants and providing sewers in rural areas. The new clauses would also help to concentrate the mind of the Secretary of State, who would have to face up to the consequences of his decisions. The Government told us that the poll tax would increase accountability and we all know that that is untrue. The clauses would ensure that, under the new council tax, accountability will be seen to work in some way. They would leave the decision of which services to cut with the local authorities, but would ensure that local residents know what the Government intend when they cap an authority and force it to cut expenditure.

I do not wish to prolong this debate--[H on. Members :-- "Hear, hear."] Far more hon. Members are present now than have been here at any point during the past two days' debate. In a sense, that is a great shame, but I am sure that those who have been absent will read the debate of the past two days in Hansard and will learn much from it. The point that the two new clauses make is perhaps the most important because it is a point of principle. The Government must face up to the consequences of their actions, which they are not used to doing and should do more often. I shall wait to see what the Minister has to say before I decide whether to divide the Committee.

Mr. Nicholas Bennett : The hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Bellotti) said that this is a large audience for a Liberal. I assure him that it is also a large audience for a Welsh Office Minister. The effect of adding the new clauses to the Bill would be to make capping throughout Great Britain contingent on further action by the Government through the publication of lists of the services that the relevant

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Column 1009

Secretary of State considers will need to be reduced as a result of capping. That suggestion is rather odd. In taking a decision about the level of capping for an authority, the Secretary of State is concerned with that authority's aggregate budget and the demands it makes on its charge payers, not with the components within that budget.

The aims of capping are to prevent excessive expenditure and to protect charge payers from its consequences. It remains for individual local authorities to decide their spending priorities within their revised budgets. Authorities are in many cases well able to reduce wastage, improve efficiency and manage their affairs better in order to restrain their expenditure. It is right that we should encourage them to do so. However, it is not for us to tell authorities how to order their priorities. I call on the Committee to reject the new clause.

10.45 pm

Mr. Bellotti : I am amazed that, after all the cuts in local authority services that have resulted from the Government's policy in the past 12 years, they should still be talking about wastage and efficiency. Most local councillors and most local authorities throughout Britain are doing their best despite the Government. The Bill should not be finance led, as it is ; it should address itself to the delivery of local services, and the needs of the people in our local communities should be paramount. It is for that reason that I shall seek to divide the Committee.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time :

The Committee divided : Ayes 33, Noes 261.

Division No. 172] [10.45 pm

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Alton, David

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Ashton, Joe

Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)

Beith, A. J.

Bellotti, David

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)

Carr, Michael

Cryer, Bob

Douglas, Dick

Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)

Flynn, Paul

Howells, Geraint

Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

Lambie, David

Livingstone, Ken

Livsey, Richard

Loyden, Eddie

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Meale, Alan

Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute)

Salmond, Alex

Skinner, Dennis

Steel, Rt Hon Sir David

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Thomas, Dr Dafydd Elis

Wallace, James

Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)

Wigley, Dafydd

Wise, Mrs Audrey

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mr. Archy Kirkwood and

Mr. Ronald Fearn.

NOES

Adley, Robert

Aitken, Jonathan

Alexander, Richard

Alison, Rt Hon Michael

Allason, Rupert

Amess, David

Amos, Alan

Arbuthnot, James

Ashby, David

Aspinwall, Jack

Atkinson, David

Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

Batiste, Spencer

Beggs, Roy

Bellingham, Henry

Bendall, Vivian

Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

Biffen, Rt Hon John

Blackburn, Dr John G.

Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

Boscawen, Hon Robert

Boswell, Tim

Bowden, A. (Brighton K'pto'n)

Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

Bowis, John

Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes

Brandon-Bravo, Martin

Brazier, Julian

Bright, Graham

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)

Buck, Sir Antony

Butcher, John

Butler, Chris

Butterfill, John

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Column 1010

Carlisle, John, (Luton N)

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Carrington, Matthew

Carttiss, Michael

Cash, William

Chapman, Sydney

Chope, Christopher

Churchill, Mr

Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

Clark, Rt Hon Sir William

Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

Colvin, Michael

Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Cope, Rt Hon John

Couchman, James

Cran, James

Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Day, Stephen

Dickens, Geoffrey

Dicks, Terry

Dorrell, Stephen

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Dover, Den

Dunn, Bob

Dykes, Hugh

Eggar, Tim

Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)

Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas

Favell, Tony

Fenner, Dame Peggy

Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey

Fishburn, John Dudley

Fookes, Dame Janet

Forman, Nigel

Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

Forth, Eric

Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman

Fox, Sir Marcus

Franks, Cecil

Freeman, Roger

French, Douglas

Fry, Peter

Gale, Roger

Gardiner, Sir George

Gill, Christopher

Glyn, Dr Sir Alan

Goodlad, Alastair

Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

Gorman, Mrs Teresa

Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW)

Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

Greenway, John (Ryedale)

Gregory, Conal

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

Grist, Ian

Ground, Patrick

Grylls, Michael

Hague, William

Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom)

Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

Hanley, Jeremy

Hannam, John

Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

Harris, David

Hawkins, Christopher

Hayes, Jerry

Hayward, Robert

Heathcoat-Amory, David

Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)

Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE)

Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

Hill, James

Hind, Kenneth

Holt, Richard

Hordern, Sir Peter

Howard, Rt Hon Michael

Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)

Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)

Hunter, Andrew

Irvine, Michael

Jack, Michael

Janman, Tim

Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

Jones, Robert B (Herts W)

Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

Key, Robert

Kilfedder, James

King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

Kirkhope, Timothy

Knapman, Roger

Knight, Greg (Derby North)

Knowles, Michael

Knox, David

Lang, Rt Hon Ian

Latham, Michael

Lawrence, Ivan

Lee, John (Pendle)

Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)

Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)

Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

Lord, Michael

Luce, Rt Hon Sir Richard

Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas

Macfarlane, Sir Neil

MacGregor, Rt Hon John

MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)

Maclean, David

McLoughlin, Patrick

McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael

McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick

Madel, David

Malins, Humfrey

Marland, Paul

Marlow, Tony

Marshall, John (Hendon S)

Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)

Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

Mates, Michael

Maude, Hon Francis

Mawhinney, Dr Brian

Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick

Mellor, Rt Hon David

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Miller, Sir Hal

Mills, Iain

Miscampbell, Norman

Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

Mitchell, Sir David

Moate, Roger

Monro, Sir Hector

Montgomery, Sir Fergus

Morris, M (N'hampton S)

Moss, Malcolm

Nelson, Anthony

Neubert, Sir Michael

Nicholls, Patrick

Nicholson, David (Taunton)

Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)

Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley

Oppenheim, Phillip

Page, Richard

Paice, James

Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

Pawsey, James

Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

Porter, David (Waveney)

Portillo, Michael

Powell, William (Corby)

Price, Sir David

Raison, Rt Hon Sir Timothy

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