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House of Commons
Wednesday 12 June 1991
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]
Oral Answers to Questions
ENVIRONMENT
Local Government Review
1. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if the local government review will include possible structures for London.
The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Michael Heseltine) : The consultation document published on 23 April said that the Government have no plans to change the general structure of local government in London and the metropolitan county areas.
Mr. Greenway : Does my right hon. Friend recall that the late and unlamented Greater London council, when Labour dominated, doubled the rates, doubled the fares for Londoners on London transport in 1984, and continually increased the rates by huge margins as well as giving grants to deviant groups and all sorts of unworthy causes? Does he agree that we must not return to anything like the GLC?
Mr. Heseltine : I think that my hon. Friend is right. The Government have no intention of recreating the GLC, which spent most of its time undermining the confidence and credibility of London as a great world city.
Mr. Tony Banks : I must tell the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) that he is now off the list for the first reception of the Greater London Authority.
Has the Secretary of State had a chance to study the report which I understand came out yesterday showing that mayors in British towns work longer hours and put in more effort than mayors around the rest of the world? We all acknowledge the work that they put in. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman was very much in favour of the idea of a directly elected mayor for London. Does he still favour that proposal? If he does, would he be prepared to meet me to study my completely worked up proposal and scheme, which includes the odd name that I have in mind for the job?
Mr. Heseltine : The House will know that I spend a great deal of time thinking about the way in which we can improve and encourage the partnership between local and central government. It has been a source of some concern to me today to discover that three items on my desk consist of inquiries into corruption in Hackney, of Lambeth sending out bills including the £140 because it cannot collect the community charge, and of worries about
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internecine warfare in the Labour party in Liverpool--hardly an encouragement to those of us trying to advocate the cause of local government in this country.Sir Rhodes Boyson : Is the Secretary of State aware that the local government reorganisation of 1963-64 was deeply resented in many Conservative parts of London which want to return to the original boundaries and that there is no way in which the right hon. Member for Brent, North, being guided by his constituents, can support the Government on local government until we are given the right to return to a separate Wembley and Willesden? The same applies to other areas of London where we are putting at risk Conservative seats under Labour authorities.
Mr. Heseltine rose -- [Hon. Members :-- "Speak for Neasden!"] I know that my right hon. Friend the Member for Brent, North (Sir R. Boyson) feels strongly about these matters. Having looked at the reorganisation on which we were already embarked in the non-metropolitan areas and outside London, however, the Government felt that the task that we had set ourselves was a large one which would lead to the prospect of a larger number of unitary authorities and we did not want to extend those proposals at this time.
Mr. Gould : I imagine that the Secretary of State is also concerned about the fraud squad inquiry into Conservative-controlled Bromley. May I press him a little harder on the question of London and give him a further opportunity to snub the people of London, who have shown by an overwhelming majority that they demand a London-wide voice for Londoners and their city? Will the right hon. Gentleman come to the Dispatch Box and explain why he insists on denying that to them?
Mr. Heseltine : The most graphic example of why I am so sceptical of anything that smacks of the GLC is that it fell to my responsibility and to that of the Government to cope with the 6,000 acres of dereliction in the east end of London which were a direct product of the fact that the land was owned by nationalised industries and suffocated by a combination of east end Labour boroughs and the GLC.
Mr. Tracey : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the London unitary authorities, the London boroughs, will be the model to be followed in the rest of the country, and that that will probably be the view of much of the country when he has completed his consultations? Does he also agree that the so-called lean and hungry super-tier authority suggested by some people would soon become a fat and useless body?
Mr. Heseltine : I am sure that my hon. Friend is right, as he has much experience of this matter. I have another concern, however. The Labour party believes that it would control that authority, but it would use it not to enhance London's reputation, but to undermine it. It would use it as a source of continued controversy between local authorities and central Government, and would exploit every considerable disadvantage that it could find to diminish the reputation of the capital city and not to enhance it.
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Nuclear Waste Disposal
2. Mr. Wallace : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he has any plans to meet the chief executive of Nirex to discuss the strategy for disposal of nuclear waste.
The Minister for the Environment and Countryside (Mr. David Trippier) : My right hon. Friend has no such plans
Mr. Wallace : May I suggest to the Minister that his right hon. Friend should make time available to see the managing director of Nirex, Mr. McInerney, especially in the light of the Secretary of State's recent statement that a decision will soon be made to use Sellafield for the disposal of intermediate and low-level waste? That being so, does the Minister agree that Nirex should wind up its operation at Dounreay, and end the blight that has been affecting the highlands and islands for so long? If the Minister is not prepared to do that, will he at least take this opportunity to knock on the head any suggestion that Dounreay is a potential site for high-level radioactive waste?
Mr. Trippier : The hon. Gentleman's opinions are well known, and I have heard them expressed in the House on several occasions. I ask him to be a little more patient. Although he wishes to draw me on the issue, he knows that it is for Nirex to make proposals. No decision to abandon Dounreay in favour of a development at Sellafield can be taken until Nirex's reports are in the Government's hands and the results of the site investigations are obtained, which I understand will be at the end of this year.
Sir Hector Monro : Does my hon. Friend agree that the visitor centre at Sellafield, and the efforts of British Nuclear Fuels and Nirex to explain their policies on reprocessing and disposal, have gone a long way to dispel public anxiety? Does he also agree that much more should be done to explain the general proposals to the public so as to remove any fears in the future?
Mr. Trippier : I have no difficulty at all in agreeing with my hon. Friend's second point. On his first point, I have visited the centre at Sellafield on three occasions and I, too, am impressed with the service that it provides.
Dr. Kim Howells : Does the Minister agree that the atomic authorities are being forced to explore the possibility of an underground repository for spent fuel and nuclear waste in Sellafield because the Government find it politically embarrassing to allow those authorities to explore better geological sites for that purpose elsewhere in the country?
Mr. Trippier : I have to disagree with the hon. Gentleman. It was perfectly clear that the two sites on what may be described as the shortlist were Dounreay and Sellafield. Much time and effort went into the work of producing that shortlist and carrying out the investigations. Both sites are being considered, and the report on the investigations should be in our hands by December.
Rents-to-Mortgages Scheme
3. Mrs. Maureen Hicks : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans are being made to enable council tenants to convert rents to mortgages.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Tim Yeo) : Experimental schemes ar
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now in operation for new town tenants in Basildon and Milton Keynes. Primary legislation is needed to extend therents-to-mortgages scheme to council tenants. We will consider this in the light of the results of the pilot schemes.
Mrs. Hicks : Does my hon. Friend agree that allowing council tenants to buy their homes under the right-to-buy scheme was a very popular piece of legislation? We have given tenants what they want, but some tenants need further assistance. I welcome the experiment to date, and I hope that as soon as possible we shall extend the provision so that all tenants will have the opportunity to buy their homes.
Because of the Labour party's opposition to tenants, in often not wanting them to buy their homes, it has incorporated deplorable delaying tactics. Will the Minister ensure, if and when he introduces the legislation, that tenants can buy their homes immediately and that thousands of pounds of rent will not be wasted while the transaction is taking place?
Mr. Yeo : I agree with my hon. Friend, who makes an important point. I am sorry to say that, even today, in the boroughs of Lambeth and Hackney disgraceful obstacles are put in the way of tenants trying to exercise their right to buy.
I am glad to say that the rents-to-mortgages experiment is going extremely well. I expect the first completions to take place later this month. It is an important extension of tenants' rights. I shall be interested to see whether the Labour party overcomes its hostility to allowing council tenants to become home owners more quickly under the rents-to-mortgages scheme than under the right-to-buy scheme.
Mr. Soley : Given that one in nine homeless families are in that position as a result of mortgage repossession, would it not be more intelligent for the Government, having created the housing crisis and lost 1.5 million tenancies from the rented sector, to introduce a mortgage rescue scheme? That has been suggested not only by the Labour party but by many housing experts outside. In doing that, should not the Government reform housing finance to make it easier for tenants not only to step up to home ownership but to step down again to renting when they find themselves in difficulties? Why does the Minister not end his desperate search for a policy, adopt our policy and use it sensibly?
Mr. Yeo : The hon. Gentleman's grasp of housing issues is tenuous at the best of times, but this time he has allowed his prejudices to submerge his intelligence to an even greater extent than usual. It has obviously not occurred to him that the whole purpose of the rents-to-mortgages scheme is to avoid the circumstances in which tenants are tempted to enter into commitments that they cannot afford. The scheme will allow a tenant to purchase a share of his property, without increasing his weekly outgoings, by substituting for his weekly rental payment a weekly mortgage payment.
Mr. Peter Bottomley : Will my hon. Friend consider suggesting to all housing authorities that they publish an illustrative list of flats and houses, with the prices that people would expect to have to pay, given the buyer's age, the valuation of the house or flat and the length of time for
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which the buyer has been a tenant, as many people do not realise that they could buy their flats for less than £17,000 and save money by so doing?Mr. Yeo : My hon. Friend has made an interesting point, and I shall certainly follow up his suggestion. It is clear that a significant number of people are still trapped in the tyranny of tenancy and would like to escape from it. If they understood the favourable terms on which the Government have made it possible for them to do so, I am sure that they would take advantage of the opportunity.
Environmental Labelling
5. Mr. Andrew F. Bennett : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when a system of green labelling approved by the Government will be operating in the United Kingdom.
Mr. Heseltine : An official eco-labelling scheme should become operational in 1992.
Mr. Bennett : Is the Secretary of State aware that many people would like to buy products that are as environmentally friendly as possible, but find it difficult because of the wide range of supermarket claims that this or that product is environmentally friendly? Many people have been conned by some of those claims in recent years, and unless a national labelling system is introduced very soon their willingness to purchase such products will steadily decline.
Mr. Heseltine : The public at large are, I think, well aware that significant retailers and manufacturers have taken advantage of the public's appetite for green, environmentally friendly products and introduced their own green labelling systems. It is appropriate that a standard system should operate across the European Community, and that known quality tests should be applied. That is why the British Government are pressing so hard, and why we hope to achieve a European eco-labelling system this year. If we do not, our determination is such that we shall have to proceed with our own national scheme.
Mr. Allason : Does my right hon. Friend agree that a standard labelling system is needed to indicate not just the contents of a package but the manufacture of the package itself? Does he also agree that the standardised system should extend to the composition of the contents? There may be considerable differences, and it can be misleading for the consumer reading the label, who may not realise that there is a percentage difference as well as a weight difference.
Mr. Heseltine : My hon. Friend has made important but detailed points. They are precisely the sort of constructive suggestions that we shall wish to consider when preparing our proposals--or when implementing our determination to agree European proposals.
Mr. John D. Taylor : Will non-disposable plastic labels be used, or the more environmentally acceptable paper labels?
Mr. Heseltine : As the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate, eco- labelling is not just a matter of the composition of labels but a means of conveying to a wide
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public the contents of the products that those labels seek to describe, but it would, of course, be a major step forward if the labels were made of recyclable material.Mr. Win Griffiths : Most people will be pleased to hear the Secretary of State today commit himself to introducing an eco-labelling scheme in 1992, but I remind him that many people will treat that with some scepticism, given that on 21 March 1990 in column 1114 of Hansard his predecessor promised that if an eco-labelling scheme was not in place on an EC basis or at least agreed by the end of that year we would go into action with one of our own. It is now June 1991 and we do not have an EC scheme or a national scheme. Will the Minister stress the fact that we shall indeed have a scheme at the end of the current year, or is that just a repeated bogus claim?
Mr. Heseltine : I think that the hon. Gentleman will discover that the original commitment was to introduce a scheme by the end of 1991, although he is absolutely right that we have not achieved that. The original commitment was for 1991, but the essence of the dilemma is simple- -whether to proceed with a national scheme, with the risk that we shall have to change it all relatively quickly when a European scheme takes its place, or to use the good offices of the British Government to ensure that we get an eco-labelling scheme throughout Europe as quickly as possible.
Local Government Review
6. Mr. Haynes : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what progress is being made on consultation with local authorities concerning reorganisation.
The Minister for Local Government and Inner Cities (Mr. Michael Portillo) : The Government's consultation paper on local government structure has been circulated widely and comments are being received. I expect a large number of responses as the deadline approaches.
Mr. Haynes : Will the consultation with local authorities on the setting up of the commission mean that local authorities will be properly consulted for their views? Bearing in mind the mess that the Government have made of the local economy-- [Interruption.] It is a real mess, a right cock-up. When will that commission be reporting so that we know exactly what is to happen?
Mr. Portillo : The consultation paper has been circulated to all the principal local authorities. I have no complaints about that, and they are responding individually and through their associations, so there is no problem with consultation. The local government commission will be established by a Bill which the Government will introduce in the autumn.
Mrs. Roe : As my hon. Friend is aware, London's Metropolitan police authority boundary extends beyond the Greater London area into counties such as Hertfordshire. Will he ensure that when the local government commission reviews the structure of local government it will also consider whether the Hertfordshire constabulary boundary should include the whole of the county and not merely part of it?
Mr. Portillo : It is important that the local government commission should consider that sort of issue, and that Ministers should not jump to conclusions before the
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legislation to establish that commission has even been introduced. I know that when the commission is established my hon. Friend's important views on the matter will help to guide it as to the sort of questions that it ought to be considering.Mr. O'Brien : The review of local government proposed by the Secretary of State will overlap with some of the proposals in the Widdicombe report, especially the role of the elected member. How does the Secretary of State intend to resolve that and, in doing so, will he note and act on the views, observations and concerns expressed by local authorities?
Mr. Portillo : A large number of recommendations in the Widdicombe report have already been brought into effect or will be shortly. There will be some overlap, although I think that the most important areas of overlap will be not so much with the Green Paper that has been published as with the Green Paper that is yet to be published on questions of internal management. The Government will wish to take careful account of the representations made in support of what has been done under the Widdicombe proposals and, conversely, the views of people who think that the Widdicombe reforms go in the wrong direction and believe that we can do better in future.
Mr. Alton : In the discussions with local authorities, will the Minister say what rights of redress will be provided for the citizens of cities such as Liverpool, where in some areas bins have not been emptied for the past 13 weeks? What does he intend to do to assist community charge payers in places like Liverpool, who have been called to pay an additional £70.99 in poll tax for people who did not pay the poll tax last year? Does not that run contrary to any question of natural justice?
Mr. Portillo : I am appalled by those local authorities that, through ineptness, inefficiency or lack of will, have failed to collect community charge and are now asking law-abiding citizens to bear that burden. Those citizens have every right to be angry with their local authorities and to express their feelings most strongly through the ballot box. We have tackled the question of the standards that we can expect from local authorities through the introduction of greater choice and competition for citizens within local authorities with the extension of compulsory competitive tendering. I agree with the spirit of the hon. Gentleman's question, that we need to go further to enfranchise more citizens so that they can have redress against local authorities which underperform. That is an important part of the consideration of the citizens' charter to which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is giving a great deal of attention.
Mr. Holt : Will my hon. Friend hurry up and get on with the reorganisation, because those of us who live in Cleveland are fed up with a local authority in which the leader has thrown the chairman of the county council out of his civic suite to obtain greater aggrandisement, and in which today the council is trying to fiddle competitive tendering in order to charge an additional £2 million to the people of the county? The council has already wasted nearly £1 million--and it will continue to spend money--on a would-be light rapid-transport system. It has also gone out of its way to hurt a schoolboy's chances of playing football for his county.
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Mr. Portillo : To pick just one of the very justifiable complaints that my hon. Friend makes, the Government are extremely concerned about those local authorities that cheat on compulsory competitive tendering and try to deprive their residents of the benefits of competition and choice. One of the points on which we are strongly focused is ensuring that we provide a level playing field so that compulsory competitive tendering works effectively and brings the benefits of competition and choice to our citizens.
Severn Estuary
7. Mr. Morgan : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what recent consultations he has had with the chairman of the Nature Conservancy Council concerning the designation of the Severn estuary mudflats as a special protection area under the European Community wild birds directive.
Mr. Trippier : None. My right hon. Friend is considering the case for the designation of the Severn estuary as a special protection area.
Mr. Morgan : Does the Minister agree that it is nothing short of a scandal that, as a result of the Government's dithering, the proposed special protection area for the Severn estuary mudflats, along with another 160 proposed special protection areas, has been sitting in the Minister's pending tray for more than a year at vast expense in Ministers' and civil servants' time and in time spent in consultation with landowners? Yet still the Minister will not take the decision to designate the mudflats under a directive which is now 10 years old. Does he agree that if he does not do something soon, the Government's name in Europe will be "mudflats"?
Mr. Trippier : I totally reject all that the hon. Gentleman has suggested--it cannot be dithering or time wasting. The hon. Gentleman has, probably unintentionally, misled the House, because the papers for the designation were submitted to us by the NCC only a few months ago.
Mr. Soames : With regard to that designation, and to others from Europe, will my hon. Friend confirm that he and his colleagues in the European Community will be taking a good deal of interest in ensuring that it is understood that not every estuary in Britain is the same, and that great care and attention needs to be given on an individual basis and not just on a blanket one? Will he assure the House that he is using his best endeavours to ensure that the European departments involved are aware of those differences?
Mr. Trippier : I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. I agree with every word that he said. In the past, I have had the opportunity to raise this very matter with other Ministers at the European Environment Council. It is a matter of record that I share my hon. Friend's views on this. No two estuaries are the same, and they cannot be treated in the same way for nature protection purposes.
Mr. Simon Hughes : Is the Minister aware that there is considerable concern that the time it takes to make a designation that protects an estuary is so much longer than the time it takes for developers to work up an advanced plan that will ruin the estuary? Conservation interests do not appear to be properly upheld by the Government. Is it
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true that when Ministers met the representatives of wildlife organisations a few weeks ago, Ministers made it clear that they were not interested in a common estuaries policy, which was a great disappointment to those whom they met.Mr. Trippier : The hon. Gentleman's latter point is totally wrong. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I attended the meeting to which he referred. My right hon. Friend asked the non-governmental organisations to submit in finer detail precisely what they expect from Ministers in the Department of the Environment. At no time did the Secretary of State suggest that we were prepared to go for a full-blown review of coastal policy. The matter now lies in the hands of the NGOs, which I am sure will respond positively.
Estate Action Programme
8. Mr. Squire : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will detail the amount spent on the estate action programme in 1990- 91 and the budget for 1991-92.
Mr. Heseltine : The budget for 1990-91 was £190 million. We shall not know how much of this has been spent until local authorities finalise their end-of-year accounts. The budget for 1991-92 is £268 million.
Mr. Squire : I congratulate my right hon. Friend on figures which, at first sight, seem to show a 40 per cent. increase. Does he agree that some of the worst estates in the country, usually under the tender control of the Labour party, are being transformed by the expenditure? Some people in the worst possible housing conditions are having those conditions relieved. Does my right hon. Friend agree that that is a good example of a caring Government directing money to where it is needed?
Mr. Heseltine : The whole House recognises that my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning has made a significant effort to improve the allocation of those resources to the most acutely stressful estates. I am sure that the House will also recognise our determination to deal with the serious problems of those deprived estates, not the least of which is that systematically, year after year, they have been used to concentrate the most difficult families and allowed to deteriorate in the most appalling circumstances under Labour authorities.
Mr. Lewis : Is not the Secretary of State aware that such programmes distort the whole business of planning in local authorities? Out-of-city estates, which share inner-city problems, have been totally ignored not by local authorities, but by the Secretary of State. Does he agree that his latest wheeze of a Dutch auction for funds will exacerbate the problems?
Mr. Heseltine : The hon. Gentleman does not completely understand the issue. The basis on which most of the revival policy is set was the restoration of the Cantril Farm estate, which is now Stockbridge Village Trust. That estate has been transformed by the policies of the Government.
The hon. Gentleman took issue with the allocation of funds, but if any of the authorities eligible for our new city
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challenge wishes to submit a proposal for restoring an out-of-town, overspill estate it will be eligible for treatment, as it is already through the estate action programme.Mr. Dickens : Is my right hon. Friend aware that in Littleborough and Saddleworth we have an estate called the Holts estate? Last year, it applied for some money through the estate action programme. It is desperately in need of help as it has been sorely neglected. It is within the metropolitan borough of Oldham. Will my right hon. Friend assure me that when that application is resubmitted, he will give it serious consideration?
Mr. Heseltine : I should find it impossible to resist my hon.
Local Government Finance
9. Mr. Bill Michie : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he will announce his proposed total standard spending for local authorities for 1992-93 ; and if he will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Robert Key) : My right hon. Friend expects to make this announcementas usual, in July.
Mr. Michie : What ceiling do the Government envisage for spending next year, bearing in mind the Government's commitment yesterday to placing the capped authorities and their alignment of money which the Government hope will match the council tax guesstimates for local community needs?
Mr. Key : This year, total standard spending was £39 billion, which is an increase on 1990-91 of about 19 per cent. We are still considering the pressures that will fall on local authorities' spending in 1992-93. We have discussed the matter with local government representatives and we shall continue to do so.
Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman : When considering the standard spending assessment for 1992-93, will the Minister bear in mind the point that has repeatedly been made by me and Lancaster and Wyre borough councils--that the all-ages social index works very savagely against boroughs such as ours? Will he consider the composition of that index and the weighting within it?
Mr. Key : Yes, I am delighted to give that assurance to my hon. Friend. We shall carefully consider that matter. We have already received representations from other councils and we shall listen carefully. If my hon. Friend has particular representations that she would like to make, I should be very glad to see her to discuss them.
Mr. Blunkett : As my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Mr. Michie) said, yesterday the capping rules were spelt out in such a way that the proposed council tax figures that were guessed at a couple of months ago are to be applied to spending limits. Will the Government spell out how they intend to do that with the figures that they are to use for next year? In particular, can the Government say whether they intend to take on board the Audit Commission's correct analysis--that, at the very minimum, £800 million of spending that could have been engaged in next year is to be withdrawn from the British public because of the need to retain the poll tax instead of adopting our alternative?
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Mr. Key : I was pleased to receive the Audit Commission's endorsement-- [Laughter.] Oh, yes. It was incorrectly reported in The Times this morning. The hon. Gentleman will discover that Mr. Howard Davies has already written to The Times to repudiate that. I shall tell the hon. Gentleman exactly what I will do. I shall give him further details of our plans if he will give us details of the announcement made yesterday to the House by the hon. Member for Normanton (Mr. O'Brien), who said that the Labour party has decided on a new way of distributing grant. That was the first that anyone had heard of it.
10. Mr. Cran : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations he has received to change the present arrangements for distributing revenue support grant to local authorities.
Mr. Key : I have received a number of representations about the present method of distributing revenue support grant.
Mr. Cran : When will my hon. Friend be able to respond to the various suggestions made by a delegation that went to see him recently--led by the borough of Beverley but representing the views of about 10 district councils--and in particular the suggestion that there should be a grant system for London on the one hand and for the rest of the country on the other? In so doing, will he accept the thanks of the members of that delegation for the constructive way in which he met and spoke to them?
Mr. Key : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks. On 22 May I received an important delegation from Beverley, but also represented were Broadland, Harborough, Holderness, North Kesteven, Rutland, Ryedale, Selby, South Northamptonshire and South Ribble. The very serious representations that they made are being considered by me and my colleagues. They proposed that there should be separate formulae for London and the rest of the country that would produce a relatively small gain for a large number of average and below-average need districts and a fairly substantial loss for the metropolitan districts and a small number of urban shire districts. That is the problem, but we shall look at it very carefully.
Mr. Nellist : Is the Minister aware that in its representations on the changing of local government finance which the Audit Commission published this morning, the commission--set up in 1983 by this Government-- recommends the total abolition of the 20 per cent. payment of poll tax rule? Is he further aware that four of the five people who are currently in prison and at least 13 of the 27 who have been in prison for non-payment of the poll tax have no income, or depend entirely on state benefits? Instead of the platitudes of the past few minutes, when will this Government listen to a body that they set up, abolish the 20 per cent. poll tax rule and stop punishing people for their only crime--that of being poor?
Mr. Key : If I could drag the hon. Gentleman into the 20th century and, indeed, into this year, I would point out to him that we have listened. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment has made a number of announcements this year about proposals to introduce a council tax to replace the community charge. The point about the community charge relief systems that are in operation is that they are designed to help precisely those
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people of whom the hon. Gentleman pretends to be a champion. One point that he should continually stress is the need for everyone to pay their community charge so that we do not have this scandal of the honest majority continuing to pay for those who will not pay.People Sleeping Rough
11. Mr. Robert G. Hughes : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the progress of his initiative for dealing with people sleeping rough in London.
The Minister for Housing and Planning (Sir George Young) : The initiative has made an encouraging start. My Department has made £96 million available over three years for permanent housing, direct access hostels and support for rough sleepers. So far, some 1,000 places have been provided in a mix of houses, flats and hostels and these are already occupied by people who would otherwise be sleeping out. This number should double within the next six months and reach a total of over 3,000 by the end of next year.
The initiative has begun to have a significant effect on the numbers sleeping rough in central London and I hope that progress will continue as more accommodation becomes available.
I pay tribute to the voluntary groups, the housing associations and the London boroughs for the part that they have played in ensuring the successful start of the initiative in central London.
Mr. Hughes : Is my hon. Friend aware that people working in that sector recognise the enormous progress that has been made since he became the Minister responsible for housing? Is he further aware that, as he suggested, as a result of the initiatives, substantial inroads have been made into the number of people sleeping rough in London? Does my hon. Friend share my view that the much smaller number of people now sleeping rough on the streets of London have multiple problems and are a hard core of people for whom accommodation will not necessarily provide the whole answer and who may therefore remain on the streets? Can he make progress in collaboration with other Departments to make available to such people the complicated care and help that they need?
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