| Home Page |
Column 1
T H EP A R L I A M E N T A R Y D E B A T E S
OFFICIAL REPORT
IN THE FOURTH SESSION OF THE FIFTIETH PARLIAMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND
[WHICH OPENED 25 JUNE 1987]
FORTIETH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF
HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II
SIXTH SERIES VOLUME 193
FOURTEENTH VOLUME OF SESSION 1990-91
House of Commons
Monday 17 June 1991
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[ Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]
Oral Answers to Questions
ENERGY
Opencast Coal Mines
1. Mr. Hain : To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will make a statement on the arrangements for licensing opencast coal mines.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy (Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory) : Under existing legislation, the British Coal Corporation is the licensing authority and is therefore responsible for the arrangements for licensing opencast coal production.
Mr. Hain : Is the Minister aware of the environmental blight, pollution, traffic congestion and danger to health caused by opencast mines, which are concentrated overwhelmingly in the Neath and Swansea valleys, and elsewhere in south Wales? If the Minister concentrated them in the south-east and south-west of England, he would be skinned alive by his constituents and his Government would get a bloody nose.
Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : I agree that opencast coal mining must be carried out to the highest planning and environmental standards, but to put an artificial limit on
Column 2
opencast coal production as the Labour party wishes would be to the detriment of the coal industry generally and would cost many jobs in the industry.Mr. Ashby : Is my hon. Friend aware that, contrary to the assertion of the hon. Member for Neath (Mr. Hain), the preponderance of opencast mining is not in the hon. Gentleman's area but in mine? North-west Leicestershire has been devastated by opencast mining and there is now a proposal for a new opencast mine at the Coalfield West site. That proposal is opposed by the county council, the district council and the overwhelming majority of people in the area. Will my hon. Friend therefore reconsider the proposal and perhaps defer it for 200 years or so, until technology has improved sufficiently for such opencasting to be carried out without detriment to the environment?
Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : I confirm that my hon. Friend has opencast mining in his constituency, and I visited a site there. The appeal decision on the site in question, however, will be made not by my Department but by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment.
Mr. Eadie : Are we to take the Minister's reply as having some relationship with the fact that he has asked Rothschild, the merchant bankers, and Touche Ross, the accountants, to advise on the privatisation of the mining industry? Will they be making recommendations about that, and will the Select Committee on Energy be bypassed yet again?
Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : When we draw up plans to privatise the coal industry, we shall consult all interested parties, including the opencast mining sector.
Electricity Generation
3. Mr. Paice : To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what is his estimate of the amount of electricity generation likely to be generated from renewable sources by the end of the decade.
Column 3
10. Mr. Knapman : To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what is his current estimate for the amount of electricity generation likely to be generated from renewable sources by the end of the decade.The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy (Mr. Colin Moynihan) : The Government are working towards a figure of 1000 MW onew renewable electricity generating capacity by the year 2000.
Mr. Paice : My hon. Friend will recognise that nobody expects renewable resources to be the primary contributor to our electricity supplies in the foreseeable future, but does he agree that the Government's record on research into that source bears good comparison with that of previous Governments? Is not it interesting to note that we are spending 12 times as much as the Labour Government spent on research into renewable energy?
Mr. Moynihan : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. More than £180 million has been invested in research, development and demonstration, with a budget allocation of more than £24 million--a new record high--for this year.
Mr. Knapman : Can my hon. Friend confirm that it is thanks to the privatisation of the electricity generating industry that renewables are to have their best opportunity ever to compete, and to compete on their own merits?
Mr. Moynihan : I can indeed confirm that. Through electricity privatisation, we established the non-fossil fuel obligation, and under that obligation we are giving renewables their best opportunity ever to enter the electricity generating market.
Dr. Kim Howells : Does the Minister agree that the Government missed a vital chance? As they intended to privatise the electricity industry, would not it have been better to create real competition, rather than the present duopoly which is concentrating only on the cheapest options--which at the moment happen to be combined-cycle gas-burn systems? Does he agree that if we were really serious about developing renewables, we would have done something about ensuring that small generators had a chance as well?
Mr. Moynihan : The hon. Gentleman should be well aware that that is precisely what is achieved under the non-fossil fuel obligation. As a result of that tranche, 75 projects that are both commercially viable and environmentally acceptable have come forward right across the board--not least in landfill gases, hydro power and wind projects. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will back all those projects and recognise that they are very important for the development of renewable energy on a commercial basis.
Mr. Wallace : Does the Minister realise that the non-fossil fuel obligation can do nothing to promote renewable resources in Scotland, where that obligation does not exist? Does he recognise that many of the renewable sources involve very heavy capital starts, with the pay-back taking place over a long period? What steps is he taking to ensure that there is a lengthening of contracts so that those who supply from renewable sources have the opportunity of a pay-back on their initial capital costs?
Column 4
Mr. Moynihan : The hon. Gentleman has raised two important points. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland rcently announced a scheme under which Scottish Power and Scottish Hydro will contract for the output of renewables projects in Scotland--a scheme which the hon. Gentleman will no doubt warmly welcome. The second point concerned the implications of the 1990 limitation on the levy. I am satisfied that the regional electricity companies have the flexibility that they need to offer generators acceptable contracts under the proposed 1991 renewables order. The reality of that is evident from the considerable number of projects proposed for recognition in the second tranche of that order.
Mr. Dobson : Is the Minister aware that National Power has announced that it is to abandon most of the research and development work that was carried out when the industry was publicly owned and that it intends to sack hundreds of scientific research staff because, in its words, it is not prepared to continue funding research and development for the solution of national problems? If National Power will not do that research, who will?
Mr. Moynihan : The hon. Gentleman should have heard my response to my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Paice). The Government have given strong support under a substantially enhanced research and development and demonstration budget. If National Power--or any other company--can make proposals within the non-fossil fuel obligation to contract with the regional electricity companies, it will greatly benefit the development of research and development and the commercial viability of many of these important projects.
Gas and Electricity Prices
4. Mr. Haynes : To ask the Secretary of State for Energy when he next expects to meet the directors general of Ofgas and Offer to discuss the regulation of gas and electricity prices.
The Secretary of State for Energy (Mr. John Wakeham) : I regularly meet the directors general of both Ofgas and Offer and discuss a range of matters of mutual interest.
Mr. Haynes : Is the Secretary of State aware that the chairman of the National Consumer Council in the east midlands has severely criticised the prices being charged by the east midlands electricity authority, suggesting a figure of between 9 and 11 per cent? Consumers in the east midlands are being robbed, so the Secretary of State should get a flea in his ear and go and see those directors. Let us give them some teeth and have something done about the job. Incidentally, is the Secretary of State aware that they spent £28,000 taking business men to the cup final, and that they wined and dined them as well? What about that? It is time that the right hon. Gentleman pulled his socks up.
Mr. Wakeham : I would never accuse the hon. Gentleman of tabling a planted question--
Mr. Haynes : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It was my question and not a plant, although I know what goes on on the Conservative Benches.
Column 5
Mr. Wakeham : I was agreeing with the hon. Gentleman, not disagreeing with him. I said that the hon. Gentleman's question was not a plant, but it enables me, nevertheless, to say that domestic prices have fallen by 2.5 per cent. in real terms in the past seven years, which compares very favourably indeed with the price record of the last Labour Government, under whom there was an increase of 22 per cent. What is more, under the privatised system, domestic consumers are protected by substantial regulations which will enable prices to be kept down to the retail prices index level. That is working very well.Mr. Michael Morris : Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is genuine disquiet in the east midlands, particularly if what has happened this year were to continue for the foreseeable future--over the next two or three years? My constituents are concerned to know whether my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is confident that the regulatory powers are adequate to meet the ever-changing market conditions.
Mr. Wakeham : Yes, I am very confident that the powers are there. The increase in electricity prices for the domestic consumer will not be higher than the retail prices index over the three-year period. The director general can always come to me if he requires further powers.
Mr. Hardy : The Secretary of State mentioned the domestic consumer. He must be aware that the electricity price increases that heavy industrial users face are a serious deterrent to the maintenance of production and to exports. Does he not realise that those users face serious international competition and that our competitor countries behave with rather more sense than we do in this important matter?
Mr. Wakeham : We certainly do not subsidise electricity prices, which may be what the hon. Gentleman was suggesting, and I would not want to do that. The larger users can now use their commercial strength in a competitive market to negotiate the best prices available. A considerable number of industrial users have already benefited from competition and have been able to secure much lower prices.
Mr. Marlow : Will my right hon. Friend remind that moaning grandad on the Opposition Back Bench, the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Haynes), that before privatisation the monopoly producer was its own regulator?
Mr. Wakeham : My hon. Friend is right. Further to what the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Haynes) said, whether or not customers went to a cup final with an electricity company--
Mr. Haynes : The company paid for it.
Mr. Wakeham : I was about to make that point. There was no cost to the consumers. Their prices--
Mr. Haynes : The Secretary of State is a grandfather as well.
Mr. Wakeham : Perhaps we can keep the hon. Gentleman's private life out of this.
My point is that the regulations will mean that those expenses will not fall on the consumer.
Mr. Barron : Can the Secretary of State tell us whether it is the Government's plan that, as he rightly said, some
Column 6
of the larger commercial users are able to shop around and obtain the benefit of a 15 per cent. drop in the price that they paid the year before while domestic consumers have had an increase of 11 per cent?Mr. Wakeham : Domestic consumers are protected by a system of price regulation. They have a different system because it is not possible to introduce competition for domestic users. They are protected by domestic regulations which do not allow prices to increase more than the retail prices index over a three-year period.
Renewable Energy
8. Mr. Maclennan : To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what further steps he plans to take to promote the development of the technology for renewable energy resources throughout the United Kingdom.
Mr. Moynihan : The Government will be reviewing their policy on renewable energy sources in the second six months of this year. We will also be bringing forward a further renewable order, including reserved bands for a range of technologies later this year, and my Department will continue to support a major research and development programme aimed at developing all those renewable technologies relevant to conditions in the United Kingdom.
Mr. Maclennan : I thank the Minister for that reply. In the review, will he take on board the fact that his earlier announcement about contractual arrangements between private suppliers in Scotland and the Scottish boards does nothing to benefit the generation of development of renewables by the Atomic Energy Authority's technology? Will he particularly consider the possibility of that authority being involved in the development of the programme to which he referred?
Mr. Moynihan : I can confirm that we shall certainly take those points on board and look at them in detail during the review.
Mr. Butler : Can my hon. Friend report on progress with regard to the Mersey barrage scheme, about which some doubts have been expressed recently?
Mr. Moynihan : We are very keen to find a positive way forward on the Mersey barrage scheme. My officials have received a report from the Mersey Barrage Company and are currently considering it in detail. To date, we have spent £2.4 million of the £4.8 million total programme budget for the project, and we hope very much that solutions can be found to the problems and the challenges which lie ahead for the MBC.
Mr. Flynn : Does not the Minister consider that to be a disappointing reply? Will he look for a much more positive and generous investment in tidal power--a range of tidal barrages around our coast? Is it not true that for many years, possibly a century, we have neglected the use of tidal power--which is British, eternal and non-polluting?
Mr. Moynihan : No, I do not believe that my reply was in any way disappointing. I mentioned that we were hoping positively to find an appropriate way forward on the Mersey barrage scheme. On tidal energy research, we have put more than £8 million into development and demonstration. We have supported on a 50 : 50 basis
Column 7
feasibility studies on the Mersey barrage, and the Department has funded about £4 million towards studies for a Severn barrage. That is a very positive programme to identify appropriate, commercially viable and environmentally acceptable projects in tidal energy.Electricity Generation
11. Mr. Holt : To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what estimate he has made of the increase in demand for electricity generation in the next 10 years ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : My Department does not routinely forecast electricity demand--that is the job of the industry. When specific needs arise, projections are produced as, for example, in the United Kingdom's submission to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which was published as an energy paper and is available in the Library of the House.
Mr. Holt : I am grateful, on the one hand, for that answer, but I am not very grateful, on the other hand, because it says nothing. Does my hon. Friend agree that, although the future demand for electricity is an unknown quantity, the Government should consider the supply of electricty generated by North sea gas as it affects the Teesside area? We do not want a proliferation of pylons radiating like a spider's web from that region. There is no reason at all why other parts of the country should not have gas fed directly to them. If power stations are built in those areas, we would not need pylons despoiling the beautiful North Yorkshire countryside, which is under threat at this moment.
Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : Additional overhead lines are sometimes necessary to connect new power stations or to strengthen the grid system, but applications to build such lines must be accommpanied by environmental statements to ensure that the concerns expressed by my hon. Friend are fully considered before permission is given.
Mr. Benn : Can the Minister explain how it is that he disclaims responsibility for forecasting when the statute that set up his Department requires him and his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to safeguard the energy supplies of the United Kingdom? By saying that forecasting is the responsibility of private companies, he is absolving himself of any responsibility whatsoever for future energy policy.
Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : We are concerned to ensure a diverse and competitive supply of energy. What one can say about strategic plans and detailed projections of the past is that they were all wrong, including those made by the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) when he was Secretary of State for Energy.
Mr. Morgan : Would the Minsiter care to comment on what the chairman of Pilkington's told shareholders at the company's annual general meeting a fortnight ago, when he said that one of the advantages of the democratic process in this country is that it might bring in a Labour Government who, unlike the present Government, actually have an energy policy?
Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : I was not at the annual general meeting, but I have visited Pilkington's, and the company was extremely happy with the way in which we are
Column 8
working with the electricity industry and supplier of energy efficiency equipment to develop such a policy in the United Kingdom.Wind Farms
12. Mr. Speller : To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will make a statement on his policy on wind farms.
Mr. Moynihan : Government policy is designed to stimulate the development and application of all forms of renewable energy, including wind farms, wherever they have prospects of being economically competitive and environmentally acceptable.
Mr. Speller : Will my hon. Friend join me in congratulating Mr. Brian Peace of Rackenford in my constituency who has just obtained planning permission for a wind generator on his farm? Does my hon. Friend agree that the requirements are now so difficult and detailed that it might be a good idea if he and his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State were to give some advice on planning applications both to the applicants and to the councils that have to consider the applications?
Mr. Moynihan : That is a fair point. My Department is working closely with the Welsh Office and the Department of the Environment to prepare a planning policy guidance note to assist in the planning process.
Dr. Thomas : The Minister has kindly anticipated my question. Although I do not wish to provoke a dispute between his Department and the Secretary of State for Wales, who is currently considering an application for a wind farm on my constituency boundary, will he assure the House and those who are interested in alternative sources of energy that his Department will produce those guidelines rapidly so as to encourage further such applications, especially from rural areas where the development of wind farms can benefit the agricultural economy as well as providing for local energy needs?
Mr. Moynihan : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his introductory remarks. Although I cannot comment on the specific case to which he has referred, which is known as the Cymmaes case, I can confirm that I am anxious to see wind farms built and demonstrated within the United Kingdom. I am therefore concerned about any delays or possible effects on the viability of such projects due to lack of planning policy guidance. That is one reason why we place such high priority on producing guidance along the lines that I mentioned to my hon. Friend the Member for Devon, North (Mr. Speller).
Oil and Gas Reserves
13. Mr. Burns : To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what is his latest estimate of the level of oil and gas reserves on the United Kingdom continental shelf.
Mr. Moynihan : My Department's report to Parliament of April this year on the "Development of the Oil and Gas Resources of the United Kingdom"--the Brown Book--gives our latest estimates of reserves. They show that additions to reserves during last year kept pace with production during the year in the case of oil, and exceeded production in the case of gas.
Column 9
Mr. Burns : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that reply. Does he agree that those healthy estimates confound the moaning minnies and pessimists who constantly claim that our reserves are running out? Does he further agree that those figures will have a healthy influence on the British economy in the next few years?Mr. Moynihan : I agree with my hon. Friend. Nearly half the oil so far discovered on the United Kingdom continental shelf and almost two thirds of the gas remain to be produced. We look set, therefore, to remain self-sufficient in oil well into the decade and a significant producer into the next century.
Mr. Skinner : Will the Minister confirm that in recent years we have been able to extract oil from below the North sea because of the different incentives introduced by the Government, through Acts of Parliament, to enable the smaller pools of oil to be used? Does he agree that if it is possible to use incentives to extract oil in that way, it is sensible to do the same for coal that is located in thinner seams? The Government should not have double standards.
Mr. Moynihan : There are no double standards. Substantial support has been given to coal--far more than has been devoted to the development of oil and gas. The success of oil and gas production in the United Kingdom has been due primarily to the stable fiscal and regulatory regime under which international operators have worked.
Sir Dudley Smith : The information that my hon. Friend has given about gas supplies is encouraging, but is he aware that a substantial minority of people in this country do not have a gas supply? Will he talk to those who now run the gas industry and tell them that anyone living in a reasonably built-up area should have the right to the provision of a gas supply?
Mr. Moynihan : As my hon. Friend knows, the provision of gas supplies to domestic customers in the United Kingdom continues to increase. His point is well taken and will, no doubt, be listened to carefully by British Gas.
Dr. Godman : When considering licence applications from offshore oil and gas companies wishing to extract those most welcome oil and gas reserves, what emphasis is placed on the safety needs of those employed in extracting those reserves? Does the Minister agree that a modern, up-to- date standby vessel fleet is essential for the safety of those workers and will he therefore impress upon the oil and gas companies the manifest need to replace the aging vessels in the fleet with modern purpose-built vessels? That is what is needed by those employed in the offshore oil and gas industry.
Mr. Moynihan : The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. However, I draw to his attention that important safety considerations are examined at the annex B or production licence stage and not at the initial licence award round. A company that wins an award for prospectivity must prove that it achieves very high levels of safety, not least those outlined in the Cullen report. The main thrust of the important point that the hon. Gentleman makes, and with which I agree, is dealt with at the production licence stage later.
Column 10
Mr. Doran : First I welcome the initial statement made by the Minister. Opposition Members share his optimism for the North sea. Is he aware that production will continue to demand the highest possible level of encouragement from the Government? Does he share my anxiety that the Geological Society, which has been engaged in mapping the seabed in the most prospective areas, is to have its contract with the Department of Energy terminated in the next two years, even though it is about to embark on surveying areas in the north-west of Scotland where we have high hopes for further reserves of hydrocarbons?
Mr. Moynihan : I can assure the hon. Gentleman that that particular work, which was commissioned a while ago, will complete its normal course in two years when full assessment will have been completed to a depth of 600 ft. If my memory serves me right, arguments to go down to 6,000 ft-- which is what we are talking about in the north-west frontier acreage--is totally unreasonable and unnecessary. Of course, we shall review carefully arrangements with outstanding organisations such as the one that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. However, I emphasise that we are not curtailing a report. It will come to its full and complete conclusion in two years.
Electricity Privatisation
14. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will estimate how many individuals became shareholders as a result of electricity privatisation in England and Wales.
Mr. Wakeham : Some 5 million to 6 million individuals became shareholders in the privatised electricity companies in England and Wales. A recent survey, not yet completed, has estimated that of these some 10 per cent. are new shareholders.
Mr. Marshall : May I congratulate my right hon. Friend on successfully concluding the privatisation of the electricity industry which will lead to greater efficiency and keener pricing? Will he bring to the attention of those many millions of shareholders the confiscatory attitude of the Labour party?
Mr. Wakeham : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. However, not only the shareholders would suffer loss if the Labour party ever achieved power. The consumers of electricity, the employees of the company, the taxpayers and, indeed, the environment would lose.
Coal Productivity
15. Mr. Alison : To ask the Secretary of State for Energy when he next intends to meet the chairman of British Coal to discuss productivity.
Mr. Wakeham : I have regular consultations with the chairman of British Coal on all aspects of the coal industry, including the remarkable efforts that the corporation has been making to improve its productivity in its fight for a major share of the United Kingdom coal market over future years.
Mr. Alison : When my right hon. Friend next meets the chairman, will he join me in congratulating him and all concerned at British Coal on the astonishing performance of the mineworkers in the Selby group? They have
Column 11
achieved a productivity record of 12.92 tonnes per man shift--almost double the industry average. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the local generators National Power and PowerGen need look no further than the Selby coalfield for secure, long-term supplies of good quality coal at competitive prices?Mr. Wakeham : I shall willingly do what my right hon. Friend suggests. Certainly, I congratulate the mineworkers at Selby. Their new weekly productivity record is, as my right hon. Friend says, over 2 tonnes higher than their previous best. Wistow in the Selby complex set a new European output record of 108,700 tonnes in a week. That demonstrates what I have said many times from this Dispatch Box--the coal industry has a great future if its productivity improvement continues in the way that my right hon. Friend describes.
Mr. Eadie : When the right hon. Gentleman next meets the chairman of British Coal will he refer to the outstanding record in coal production achieved by Longannet miners who have broken British records? Does he agree that there is a substantial case for British Coal to reopen Monktonhall colliery in my constituency? I hope that he will subscribe to that.
| Next Section
| Home Page |