House of Commons Hansard Debates for 20 Jun 1991

Mr. Peter Robinson (Belfast, East) : Will the Secretary of State assist the House? He said that more had to be done in terms of security co- operation with the Government of the Irish Republic. Can he tell us on what sort of security issues he is currently pressing the Government of the Irish Republic?

Mr. Brooke : I understand the hon. Gentleman's question and his reason for asking it, but I do not think that it would be in the interests of joint security efforts if I shared those details with the House because to do so would be to afford intelligence to others.

The Government remain strongly committed to strengthening Northern Ireland's economy. Northern Ireland's economic performance is closely bound up with that of the national economy and inevitably the Province has recently begun to feel the effects of the national recession. But the local economy has so far held up comparatively well. For example, the output of Northern Ireland's manufacturing industries in the fourth quarter of 1990 remained at the same level as in the fourth quarter of 1989 despite a fall in output within the United Kingdom as a whole of 3 per cent. during that same period. Unemployment has risen over the past six months and most recently available figures show that it stands at 99,400, or 13.7 per cent. of the work force. But that is still about 26,000 below the peak rate in October 1986, and the figure has risen significantly more slowly than in Great Britain.

There are encouraging signs of continuing interest in Northern Ireland as an industrial location. An increasing number of jobs--almost 1,400--will be created by organisations which are transferring or are in the process of locating "back office" work to Northern Ireland. These include Government Departments and private bodies such as British Airways, Prudential Assurance and BIS Beecom. If the Northern Ireland economy is to grow stronger and take advantage of the opportunities that the 1990s offer--not least through the coming of the single European market--the competitiveness of its industry will be a key factor. Last year, we launched a strategy to assist the development of competitiveness in Northern Ireland. It is particularly directed at helping industry to overcome barriers to competitiveness and growth which stem from inefficiencies in the markets for capital, labour and information and which companies cannot surmount by their own efforts.

On the basis of that strategy, the Industrial Development Board will work with the private sector to maximise growth. Training will be an important component. Northern Ireland already has a strong asset in its work force. Educational standards are high. But we need to improve the job-related training and the skills and versatility of the Northern Ireland work force if productivity levels are to become competitive in a wider range of international markets. The Training and Employment Agency addressed these problems as its priority and launched its strategy last January.

Prosperity must be shared by all, and the Government are committed to eradicating inequality and disadvantage

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wherever they exist in Northern Ireland. Earlier this year, I announced that targeting social need would become one of our principal priorities for Government expenditure in Northern Ireland. That effort will play a significant role in removing the community divisions which are one of the obstacles to establishing a peaceful and stable environment in Northern Ireland.

Mr. James Kilfedder (North Down) : Will the right hon. Gentleman comment on the campaign being waged against the economy of Northern Ireland by the Irish Republicans in the United States?

Mr. Brooke : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I am glad to say that, although the campaign in relation to the MacBride principles, which has been going for some years, has been endorsed by the legislatures of a number of states, it has been prevented in others. The serious feature of these principles is their deterrent effect on investment in the Province, given that it is the creation of extra jobs which is likely to lead to the securing of a balance in employment between the two sides of the community.

Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North) : Will the Secretary of State tell us whether the redundancies at Lummus Mackies have anything to do with the New York decision?

Mr. Brooke : I do not think that the decisions relating to Lummus Mackies relate to the New York decision. They arise essentially from a trading matter affecting the business itself.

In practical terms, last April I announced that the level of funding for "Making Belfast Work"--a major initiative that we launched in 1988--has been increased by 22 per cent. to £27.5 million in this financial year. The total allocated to the project over six years will be £123.6 million. That funding is addititional to the extensive resources that Northern Ireland Departments continue to put into these areas through their normal main line programmes such as economic development, health and education. Results so far are encouraging. For example, during the past two years the Local Enterprise Development Unit has promoted more than 2,000 new jobs in the areas covered by the initiative. That represents a trebling of its performance in the areas concerned before the initiative. Financial support from Government is only one aspect of the road to recovery in disadvantaged areas. I am encouraged by the examples that I have seen of local groups working closely together and in partnership with Government. Communities are assuming direct responsibility over the important areas of employment, enterprise generation and training.

I should mention a recent report, commissioned by the Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights, on the financing of schools in Northern Ireland, because of the concern it raises that Catholic schools may not be so favourably treated as others. The report recommends that the capital grant rates of 85 per cent. for voluntary school building should be reviewed. Voluntary schools include all Catholic schools. They differ from fully financed or controlled schools, which are largely Protestant, in that trustees have majority representation on school boards of governors. The basis for a review of those financial arrangements is under discussion with the Catholic Church authorities. The report also recommends that the

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Department of Education should monitor the impact of its policies on the different sections of the education system. I am fully committed, within the "Targeting Social Need" initiative, to the task of monitoring the impact of the Government's policies and programmes, including the funding of capital grants for schools.

The programme of community relations work undertaken by the Central Community Relations Unit and the Department of Education is another example of our commitment to tackle Northern Ireland's problems. I have increased support for community relations from £4 million last year to £5.5 million in this financial year for projects designed to create equality of opportunity and equity of treatment for all parts of the community, to promote cross-community contact and to increase mutual respect and understanding of the different cultures and traditions in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Barry Porter (Wirral, South) : This is an appropriate moment for me to express my regret at not having been at the Dorchester hotel last night, largely because I was not invited. It would be appropriate if the Secretary of State were to accept the House's view--whatever one believes the ultimate outcome will be--that he was a proper recipient of the award in recognition of his outstanding contribution to the spirit of reconciliation and harmony between the two countries. I do not know how it will all end, but however it ends it will be in no small part due to my right hon. Friend's efforts, and it is appropriate to say so.

Mr. Brooke : I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. My only regret is that any hon. Member should have been excluded from an event that took place in my constituency.

These policies and many other practical measures will, over time, I believe, help to ensure Northern Ireland's prosperity and to reduce community divisions.

I come now to the issue of political development over the past 12 months. As the House will be aware, matters have now progressed to the point where plenary meetings between the Government and the four main constitutional parties in Northern Ireland began on Monday of this week. This is the first time since the constitutional convention met in 1976 that the main parties have come together around the same table to discuss their common future. I am sure the House will join me in acknowledging that this can only be regarded as a positive step forward. It represents the culmination of some 18 months of careful negotiation between the British and Irish Governments and the four Northern Ireland parties, and we must all hope that--now that round table talks have become a reality--further, substantial progress will be possible.

Although it is right to acknowledge the positive progress that has been made, the House will not be surprised if I continue to counsel caution, as I have since this process began. It is still early days and there are many major issues yet to be addressed. Much hard work remains to be done. In that context, I am sure that the House will understand that I would not regard it as appropriate to go into detail about the issues that are currently under consideration. Hon. Members will appreciate that if the talks are to make orderly and substantive progress, that is best done by avoiding the glare of publicity. I can tell the House, however, that serious business is being conducted on the basis set out in my statement of 26 March. All the participants are continuing to display a purposive and

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committed attitude, and during this first week of plenary sessions much valuable progress has been made in explaining our respective positions to one another. It remains my intention, of course, to report on these matters to the House as and when a fuller disclosure would be possible.

In the meantime, I should like to extend the warm appreciation of Her Majesty's Government to Sir Ninian Stephen for agreeing to take on the role of chairing the discussions in strand two. As the House will know, Sir Ninian has a distinguished record of public service in Australia and we are fortunate indeed that he has agreed to take up this appointment. It was always understood that whoever was appointed to this job would be a person of special qualities, and it is a tribute to Sir Ninian that his appointment has been so warmly and widely welcomed.

I have explained that I would not regard it as appropriate to dwell on the detailed content of the discussions. It may be helpful, however, if I say something about how I would like matters to progress in the short term. The 26 March statement announced that there would be a gap in meetings of the IGC to provide an opportunity for political dialogue. It was announced subsequently that the gap would run between 26 April and 16 July. The political talks have started, and useful exchanges are taking place. However, because delay arose from the need to resolve a number of difficult and sensitive procedural and other issues, it seems very unlikely that all issues can be resolved before 16 July. The agreement between Her Majesty's Government and the Irish Government is that a meeting of the intergovernmental conference should be held on that date. However, the Government believe that a basis for a resumption of the talks should be found, and intend to initiate discussions with all the participants-- including the Irish Government--to bring this about.

Rev. Ian Paisley : Will the Secretary of State interpret the word "resumption"? Is he suggesting that the talks cease and then resume in order to have an Anglo-Irish conference meeting?

Mr. Brooke : I said that I thought it unlikely that we would have concluded matters before 16 July when we are due to have an intergovernmental conference. I implied that it was my understanding that the parties participating in the talks would wish the talks to be continued and that I would therefore be initiating discussions with the parties as to how that might be.

Mr. Seamus Mallon (Newry and Armagh) : Does the Secretary of State agree that the issue was resolved before the negotiations started, that the date for the next Anglo-Irish conference meeting was decided and announced, and that he gave an assurance that that date would be honoured even if--I believe that these were his words--the meeting had to take place in Lagos? Will he confirm on record in the Houses of Parliament that, in effect, it is not a matter for discussion with the Irish Government or with the parties, but a matter on which agreement has already been reached?

Mr. Brooke : I confirm what I said before, which was that there was agreement between Her Majesty's Government and the Irish Government that a meeting of the intergovernmental conference would be held on16 July. I went on to say, when I responded to the hon.

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Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley), that it was my impression that the parties would wish to find a way of continuing the talks and that we should need to initiate discussions as to how that could be done.

As the talks process takes its course, the Government will continue to pursue their aim of seeking to identify institutions and arrangements which will reflect and promote the further development of good relations within Northern Ireland, among the people of Ireland, and between the two Governments.

Rev. William McCrea (Mid-Ulster) : Does the Secretary of State not realise that the voice of reason and sanity suggests that it would be wrong for him to play around with the possibility of future stability in Northern Ireland by having a meeting of the Anglo-Irish conference in the face of substantial talks which are taking place in the Province?

Mr. Brooke : I understand the hon. Gentleman's point. However, I said--and it was the basis on which I made my statement on 26 March and which I reiterated after the intergovernmental conference on 26 April--that the time that we were setting aside was the period between 26 April and 16 July.

In pursuing our aim, we shall seek to ensure that the constitutional rights of both sides of the community continue to be protected. We shall also stand ready to give serious consideration to any proposals which might emerge from the talks and which would involve new political arrangements in Northern Ireland, provided that they were workable, stable and durable, would command widespread support, and would provide an appropriate and fair role for both sides of the community.

Mr. Ivor Stanbrook (Orpington) : My right hon. Friend is dealing with what he calls the resumption of talks after the meeting on 16 July. There must be some confusion in the minds of others besides myself. I thought that there was an understanding that the meetings of the Anglo- Irish conference would be suspended while the talks were going on. Is that not the case?

Mr. Brooke : In the statement that I made on 26 March, which was agreed by all the parties, I said that after a subsequent IGC we would indicate the dates which would provide a gap in which talks could take place. I made that statement on 26 March. After the IGC on 26 April, I said that there would not be an IGC between 26 April and 16 July, thus affording a gap in which talks might take place.

Sir Michael McNair-Wilson (Newbury) : In view of the weeks that have been lost in discussion about the chairman for the second and third stages, is there not a case to be put to the Republican Government that the date of 16 July should now be much more flexible? Is there also not a case to be made that even if that conference meeting is to take place it should do so in Dublin, and certainly not in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Brooke : As I said, the two Governments will meet on 16 July. As I have said to some hon. Members in informal discussions, I am concerned that we should not fudge the issue. There is business which needs to be done within the intergovernmental conference, and which

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should, therefore, be done properly and not surreptitiously. We shall, therefore, hold an IGC. We hold such meetings in a rhythm, but the particular rhythm is not a matter of significant importance. I will certainly bear in mind what my hon. Friend said.

Mr. Ken Maginnis (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) rose

Mr. Kilfedder rose--

Mr. Brooke : The hon. Member for North Down (Mr. Kilfedder) has already intervened once, but as I saw him first, I will take his intervention first.

Mr. Kilfedder : Even though the Secretary of State has excluded me from the talks--for reasons that I do not understand, as my party is represented in the House and is the only party not involved in the talks-- he is aware of my total commitment to their success. On that basis, I appeal to him not to have a meeting of the conference under the Anglo-Irish Agreement on 16 July. So much is at stake and the right hon. Gentleman has said that serious discussions have taken place. I plead with him not to rub the noses of the Unionist people in the dirt--which is how it will be interpreted--by having the meeting on 16 July. I beg him to postpone any meeting under the Anglo-Irish Agreement until stage one of the talks has been completed. I urge the Secretary of State to do that.

Mr. Brooke : To some extent, I am reiterating what I said a moment ago. Two points flow from earlier remarks and I will repeat them in response to the hon. Gentleman. On March 26, I made the statement that had been agreed with all the parties and which was to be the basis on which we would conduct our affairs. When one has such an agreement, which has been hammered out carefully over many months, it is dangerous to interfere with details of it at a later date. The second consideration that I want to make firmly to the House is that we have sought, during all the negotiations which led up to the statement of 26 March and since, to be totally straightforward with the House and not to do things in an underhand manner. There is an agreement to have the intergovernmental conference on 16 July. There is business to be done, and I repeat that it is the intention of the two Governments to have the conference.

Mr. Maginnis : I notice that the right hon. Gentleman keeps reassuring the House that he does not wish to do anything in a surreptitious or underhand way. But has not the whole Anglo-Irish process from 15 November 1985 been surreptitious and underhand? Was the arrangement not arrived at without consultation with the elected representatives? Does not the right hon. Gentleman hold meetings of the Anglo-Irish conference without letting hon. Members know what is on the agenda? Do not those meetings conclude without any open and frank statement about what has been arranged behind closed doors? When the right hon. Gentleman has the opportunity to have all the major Northern Ireland parties around the table and when we are moving, one hopes, consistently towards sitting round the table--all of us--discussing matters with the Irish Government in the not too distant future, is it not worth while to consider, instead of sacrificing that opportunity, postponing at least any idea of having another meeting of the conference?

Mr. Brooke : I do not want--and this characterises my exchanges with the hon. Gentleman--to be combative in

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response to what he said, but I must admit that I react a little adversely to his remark that the intergovernmental conferences under the Anglo-Irish Agreement are conducted surreptitiously. It is known that they are taking place, and on every occasion a communique is published which is put in the Library of the House. I am consistently subjected to massive cross-examination by the media immediately after the conference meets.

Mr. Mallon : I repeat that, in effect, an agreement was made that each party entering the negotiations was aware of that date and of the fact that there was a commitment by both Governments to have the meeting on 16 July. The delay of almost seven weeks so far was not the fault of either Government and should not be another contrived road block against the meeting taking place. I welcome the assurance which the Secretary of State gave three times that the meeting will take place.

Mr. Brooke : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his concluding remark. All of us who lived through that seven weeks know what happened during that period. A number of different factors contributed to it. That is why I am concerned to initiate talks to see whether we can find a basis for proceeding hereafter.

Mr. Peter Robinson : I hope that, the Secretary of State will forgive the interventions. Many of us had expected him to make today what might have been considered an uncontroversial speech, so we have been somewhat set back by its somewhat controversial nature thus far. As one of those--I think that the Secretary of State will recognise this--who has urged the process forward, who has wished it every success and who has done everything possible to make it succeed, I must emphasise for the Secretary of State the feeling within the Unionist community that, if there is to be a meeting of the intergovernmental conference, that in effect brings the agreed talks process to an end. The Unionist community would not see it in any other way.

The Secretary of State will know that his discussions with the two Unionist party leaders suggested a time band of approximately 10 weeks in which talks would take place. We had hoped to start those talks as soon as the period began from the end of the most recent intergovernmental conference, but matters that did not relate to strand one took up a considerable time during which we were quite happy to proceed with strand one dialogue. We feel that the time lost during that period in dealing with procedural and other matters should be made up and that the Secretary of State should, therefore, have an add-on to the period that he set, so that we can have the same time band available for talking. We are prepared to intensify our efforts, and to put in more hours each day and more days each week. I hope that the Secretary of State will meet us on that issue.

Mr. Brooke : I do not know where the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) was imputing controversy in my speech, except in the particular matter that has prompted a number of interventions. I did not seek to be controversial in other parts of my speech. In the part that has prompted interventions, I was concerned--as I sought to say in answer to earlier questions--that the Government should continue to be open and should not be thought to be doing something under the counter. The hon. Gentleman is correct in saying that we envisaged a

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period of about 10 weeks. The periods of eight weeks and 12 weeks were regarded as possible brackets, and we settled on 10 weeks. I acknowledge that we lost a number of weeks because of the procedural discussions to which I referred.

Given the fact that we sought to get all three strands of the talks completed in the 10 weeks, I am not at all confident that if we had dealt with what I described as procedural matters in the margins rather than dealing with them head on, we should not have got into separate and severe difficulties. The talks have benefited by getting those out of the way and from everyone knowing how we proceed hereafter. The statement of 26 March was the basis on which the talks should occur. As a general statement, the whole process is better if we know the firm basis on which we are proceeding. That is why I was proposing to initiate talks with other parties about what we might do hereafter.

If progress can be made--

Rev. Ian Paisley : Will the Secretary of State give way?

Mr. Brooke : Yes. I have sought to accommodate the House tonight.

Rev. Ian Paisley : This is a vital matter. I have the support of all my colleagues from the Unionist side. This is a very serious matter. We were given a time limit. When the Secretary of State consulted the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Molyneaux) and myself, the first document that he gave us had brackets in it and no dates. However, he assured us that we would have at least 10 to 11 weeks to carry out the process. We said that we did not know whether that would be time enough, but we agreed to give that time. Now we are not getting that time.

The hon. Member for North Down (Mr. Kilfedder) was right. The Unionist people will feel that they have been betrayed. They will not tolerate leaders who will be part of that betrayal. I will certainly play no part in telling my people that we cannot get 10 weeks now and that we have to do what the Dublin Government say. After all, this territory is part of this United Kingdom. It is not an annex colony of the Republic. Therefore, we need the 10 weeks, which is little enough time to try to achieve a solution to years of agony.

Mr. Brooke : In the context of the discussions that I had with the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) and the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Molyneaux) in the period leading up to the statement of 26 March, I acknowledge that we discussed many things and there was no way in which we could have dealt with every possible contingency. If we had tried to deal with every possible contingency, we would never have started the talks.

In a situation where one cannot contemplate every contingency in advance, it is sensible to conduct affairs on a basis agreed by everyone. If an unforeseen situation arises, collective discussions would be required to consider what should be done thereafter. That is what I was proposing.

Mr. Barry Porter : In an attempt to be helpful, if circumstances have changed since the statement of 26 March, which I had understood to involve a de facto suspension of the IGC and time limits, it does not seem to me that 16 July is sacrosanct. I should have thought that rational and reasonable people in Dublin would

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understand if more time was given for discussions as some hon. Members are suggesting. Surely that is the pragmatic and sensible way forward.

Mr. Brooke : I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I will not try to become involved in a gloss on the statement of 26 March. If I may take a different legislative example from the affairs of this House, when the House passes a Bill it is for others to interpret it thereafter, rather than for hon. Members, although we may individually try to help our constituents to understand that Bill. The words in the statement of 26 March were carefully honed and we had spent much time agreeing them. The statement states the basis on which we would be going forward.

I said earlier that the intergovernmental conference under the Anglo-Irish Agreement was a necessary meeting for us to carry out proper business which needs to be done. I repeat that I was concerned that we should not try to do that by some other means which might have been regarded as surreptitious and underhand. I was concerned that we should do these things openly.

I hope that it will be possible in discussions between the parties to discover a way through these matters. In the meantime, the business of Government must necessarily proceed on its present footing and the order before the House for approval today therefore remains essential. I commend it to the House.

7.4 pm

Mr. Kevin McNamara (Kingston upon Hull, North) : I join the hon. Member for Wirral, South (Mr. Porter) in congratulating the Secretary of State on the award that he received yesterday evening. That was important and I hope that the spirit in which it was given and the hopes contained in the giving of it might permeate our debate this evening.

I welcome the appointment of Sir Ninian Stevens. I trust and hope that he will get down to his task of chairing the second strand of talks soon. He is a man of distinction and a man about whom, despite all the digging, no one seems to have found anything that would render him unacceptable as chairman of the conference. That in itself must be a considerable achievement in that someone somewhere in the past 20 or 30 years has not left his fingerprints on the history of Ireland or made unacceptable statements.

When we began this debate we had more grounds for optimism than we have had for many years about the political future of Northern Ireland and I trust that those grounds for optimism will remain. On behalf of the Opposition, I express our good wishes to all the participants in the negotiations which began last Monday. We sincerely hope that arrangements will be agreed that will allow direct rule to be replaced by a much more effective system of devolved government with the consent of all the parties in Ireland and subject to agreement by referendum in both parts of Ireland. We would like to hope that this was the last occasion on which we were seeking to renew direct rule. I am sure that all hon. Members share the view of the Labour party. Obviously direct rule has not been an entirely negative system. Some progress has been made over the years. For example, the urban landscape of Northern Ireland has

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improved immeasurably over the past 20 years as a result of the activities of the Housing Executive and the various area, rural and urban schemes to improve the appearance of places such as Derry and Belfast. We must congratulate the various parties involved in direct rule in Northern Ireland on achieving that in co-operation with the people of Northern Ireland. They have given quite remarkable facelifts to many towns. I have visited Northern Ireland frequently over the past 25 years and I have seen the changes that have taken place. That is a tribute to the Ministers involved and to the people in Northern Ireland whose ideas and schemes were carried out. I also welcome the Secretary of State's comments about the last SACHR report on the funding of voluntary schools. That is important and it must be examined and explored to discover what help can be provided.

The Opposition must place on record our congratulations to the Government on their work in seeking to improve community relations and on the programme for education for mutual understanding and the curriculum changes. Those are important issues. They do not attempt to destroy people's beliefs or ideals. They try to promote understanding of other people's beliefs and ideals. As the Secretary of State said, strength can come from a diversity of tradition rather than from a monolithic acceptance of matters. That is to be welcomed. However, I still regret what I regard as the political mistake that the Secretary of State made in the past year when he banned Glor Na nGael. I hope that the problem will soon be overcome and that if Glor Na nGael reapplies for funds it may get them.

It is worth reflecting for a moment on the present unacceptable state of affairs in Northern Ireland. Despite the gains that have been made, none of us can be proud of the conditions that have been allowed to prevail in what is, as the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) pointed out, meant to be part of the United Kingdom. Most obviously, that has been apparent in the violence which, sadly, the Secretary of State had to catalogue for us earlier. Yesterday, another victim was murdered in a particularly brutal and horrendous fashion. We extend our sympathy to the family and fiance e of Private Harrison and to the families of all those who have been killed or damaged, either physically or mentally, as a result of the conflict of the past 20 years.

Coupled with the physical tragedy of violence is the moral tragedy of unemployment and the economic wasteland of many parts of the Province. Tens of thousands of people in the Province, especially young people below the age of 25, are condemned to a bleak future while those deep-rooted economic and social problems persist. Of course, direct rule is not responsible for that state of affairs. But it has one crucial defect that prevents those difficulties from being overcome. Quite simply, for all the good intentions of Ministers of whatever party, direct rule does not reflect the reality of society in Northern Ireland, except in a negative sense. It is the second option of nearly the whole of the population of Northern Ireland. It does not command the consent of a substantial section of the population as a first option and, because of that, it does not allow effective Northern Irish involvement in decision-making. It involves an unsatisfactory relation between this House and Northern Ireland, whereby we have to take decisions which should more properly be made by the elected representatives of Northern Ireland. I am sure that few hon. Members from this island would

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welcome the intrusion of Westminster into their constituencies to the degree, detail and level that pertains to Northern Ireland. We would feel that such matters should be satisfied locally. There is an absence of agreement on institutions that reflect the geographical reality of Northern Ireland, sharing as it does the island of Ireland with the Republic of Ireland. Institutions that are capable of furthering the mutual interests of Northern Ireland and the Republic are vital. Despite some of the difficulties that have become apparent this evening and that demonstrate the scale and difficulty of what has to be overcome, we hope that the talks that are taking place at the moment will put into place institutions that will help to eradicate terrorism, and will be more adapted to the task of economic regeneration.

Any new arrangements must be in harmony with the realities of Northern Ireland and the island of Ireland rather than be imposed with the aim of keeping the lid on the area's problems. We need to unleash the constructive energies of the people of Northern Ireland, with the aim of creating a land in which there are neither executioners nor victims, but people living in reasonable content, one with another.

During the past 18 months, the Labour party has taken as its line on the talks and the discussions about the talks that we would do all that we could to help those talks to be established and to take place. We felt that we could best do that by keeping our mouths shut and by not giving running commentaries on every turn and twist of the negotiations. That self-denial has kept myself and my hon. Friends more off the television than on it which, for politicians approaching a general election, is the supreme sacrifice. However, it is not the same degree of sacrifice that has been expected of the people of Northern Ireland, nor is it the sacrifice that the people of Northern Ireland will have to make if the talks break down. We listened carefully to the entire contents of the Secretary of State's statement on 26 March. That complete statement had the support of the Labour party, and it still has.

7.15 pm

Mr. William Ross (Londonderry, East) : I sometimes think that there is nothing in this world as permanent as that which is labelled "temporary" or, in this case, "interim". Like, I am sure, all hon. Members in the Chamber, I have noted the fact that for weeks the newspapers, radio and television have all been saying that this is the first time for 16 years that the leaders of the three constitutional parties have sat down together at the same table to talk. Those same news outlets never add that such a remark could be made only in relation to talks on constitutional issues or to talks that have regard to constitutional issues. The reality is that the three leaders have met on other occasions about issues that are important and of benefit to the people of Ulster. We have never found any real difficulty in doing that.

The three parties have also united on a number of occasions against the Government ; the latest occasion being this morning in the Northern Ireland Committee, when we did so successfully. We have done so whenever we have protested against Government legislation--this has happened time after time --yet it seems to have passed the news media by. They never seem to pick up the fact that the people of Northern Ireland agree on many issues

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affecting Northern Ireland. Indeed, apart from constitutional and security issues, the parties are far more ready to talk about their major concerns than are their counterparts in the parties of Great Britain. I have noted that the parties which form the major political institutions in the House and in this part of the country have never made any real effort to reconcile their views. Where was the reconciliation of view on the poll tax, over the present controversy about the health service, or over the issues of a federal Europe, the exchange rate mechanism or the single European currency? Those are matters of the greatest importance on which there should be consensus and a national view, but that does not happen.

The parties in Great Britain may need a lead on that which they are providing in Northern Ireland--discussions between the parties--and, if so, I have no doubt that some of us would be prepared to suggest the name of a chairman or two, but not, I think, that of an ex-Prime Minister. That would not be conducive to peace and stability in any discussions that might take place.

Surely the fact that 19 years have passed since the Stormont Parliament was closed by street violence and that nothing has been put in its place is a matter of concern to us all. It certainly concerns many minds outside, if not inside, this House. The present effort to end the impasse is the result of the initiative not of the Secretary of State, but of the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Molyneaux) and the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley), who ensured that a commitment to seek changes was written into the manifestos of the two Unionist parties at the last election, that that manifesto was put to the people, and that the mandate that they sought was given by the Unionist population, the result being the present discussions. That item of political and constitutional business has cost our parties dear in time, trouble and political capital. We have no wish to see the effort wrecked by malignant forces or by foolishness on the part of those in high places. The whole process very nearly came to grief last July and the momentum was only slowly restored, with some severe hiccups between then and the end of March this year. It appears to me that today the Secretary of State has dealt a further deadly blow to the process. I could hardly credit that anyone in his position would behave with the rank insensitivity that he showed to the House today.

It would be an act of the greatest folly to stop the present momentum, so painfully achieved. It needs rather to be kept going and to have further impetus given to it. As the matter of the 16 July meeting is a United Kingdom decision--for we are talking about United Kingdom territory--I hope and pray that the Secretary of State will make the right decision. For the Government know perfectly well that the long delay in reaching the present stage was not the fault of the Unionist parties. The question of an independent chairman reared its head only at a late stage. As a result of that, the timescale has slipped. There is no good reason why the timing of the next meeting of the Anglo-Irish conference should not slip in concert with the timetable of the talks. Even a few weeks could make a vast difference, especially as I understand that my right hon. and hon. Friends are more than prepared to work overtime.

Why should the process be wrecked by insistence on a meeting on 16 July? There are those in the Unionist community who would say that it is simply another attempt to hammer home to Unionists the real strength of

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the Dublin input into the governance of Northern Ireland. If the process stops, if it is wrecked by insistence on a meeting on 16 July, it will be difficult to restart it. It will probably prove impossible. If that meeting takes place, it will only reinforce the belief in the Unionist community that the Governments bear ill will towards the discussions. It is certain that if the participants go off on a long holiday for the summer before reaching firm conclusions, we shall come back to a vehicle that is totally bogged down and likely never to run again.

Mr. Barry Porter : It seems to me that there is a strong argument for flexibility on the matter. It does not matter very much who caused the slowing down of the process. I understand that the Taoiseach of the Republic will be in London tomorrow. Would that not be an appropriate opportunity for discussions about the flexibility of 16 July? I do not want 16 July to take on similar significance to12 July. We should start chatting about that.

Let us not look back at whose fault it is that the process has taken all this time. Those are arguments between all the parties involved. It would be disastrous if one date had the effect that the hon. Gentleman suggests. If there is an opportunity to speak to the Taoiseach tomorrow, I am sure that he would understand, if not accept.

Mr. Ross : The Secretary of State and his colleagues will have heard what has been said from their own Benches. When Mr. Haughey is in London to see the Prime Minister there will be a real opportunity for them to discuss the matter and reach firm conclusions. The matter is serious and we all know perfectly well that the process is not open-ended. We have no wish that it should be open-ended. I know that the leader of the Social Democratic and Labour party has said that the talks could go on and on almost for ever, but that is not the way that we see it. We want to see firm conclusions reached fairly soon. There is no benefit in trailing the thing on. We all know each other's positions and we have a fair idea of the perimeters of our freedom of action. There is no reason for long delay.

If there is an attempt to keep the talks going until the next election, some people may say that the SDLP was waiting and hoping for a Labour party victory when it might make further advances towards the ideal of a united Ireland. Personally, I do not believe that that ideal would be advanced whichever of the parties that are most likely to form a Government wins the election, so to wait for that length of time could be a fairly futile operation.

We all know that in the run-up to the elections preceding the Sunningdale fiasco the Unionist electorate was fed a marvellous diet of misrepresentations as to the course of action that some Unionists intended to take. The ballot papers were marked and counted and the boxes were put away for a few years. Not all those who were involved in politics at that time were deceived. Those of us who now sit on these Benches were among the folk who were not deceived. That lesson taught the Unionist population of Northern Ireland, not least those who are in this House, a great deal about deceit and weasel words. Ever since that time we have paid attention not to the frothy expressions that we often hear from political leaders about good will or to other helpful expressions, but to the acts committed by Governments. I must tell the

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spokesman for the Conservative party who is in the House this evening that the record of his party is not one which I consider honourable. The present position on the government of Ulster is a gross affront to democracy in general and particularly to the House, which is run, as those of us who were here in the late 1970s know, by the most rigid application of majority rule. I have stated before and I make no apology for stating again that democracy is rather wider than a majority of one. In the 1970s I saw a majority of one being more than sufficient to maintain a party in office on several occasions.

I can appreciate, and I am sure that the Secretary of State appreciates, the feelings of the Unionist population of Northern Ireland when they see their will so blatantly ignored so often. In any democratic society there must be recognition of the rights of minorities. The Unionist population of Northern Ireland is a minority within this kingdom. I have to tell the Secretary of State and the Government whom he represents that that minority's rights have been neither recognised nor respected by his predecessors. I consider that a grave affront to the democratic process. I have scant sympathy with those who preach democracy elsewhere and flatly refuse to practise it at home to any normal, reasonable standard.

Having said that, I appreciate that the perimeters of the democratic process cannot be expanded to the point where the decision of the ballot box is completely ignored--within any organisation. A majority cannot be constantly thwarted by a minority because that gives to the minority the right that should always be reserved for the majority.

This House is the first to complain if elected representatives cannot form the government in places such as Burma. Yet for 20 years it has denied any role--perhaps that is not quite right and I should say any meaningful role- -to the elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland. If that were happening anywhere else, the House would be afloat with early-day motions condemning the sort of rule that we have seen in Ulster, and under which we have lived for the past 20 years. We need a system in Ulster which can withstand the shocks of violent men and violent organisations and which can deliver a service of good government to the people of Northern Ireland which is so sadly lacking at present.

The Government have always had it in their power to improve the unity of the kingdom by applying to Northern Ireland the same methods of security, administration and law-making as they use for the rest of the country. The suggestion to have a Select Committee has never been adopted. There is a motion on the Order Paper at present, tabled by the leaders of the two Unionist parties, calling for that. There is no good reason why Bills should not be used to legislate for Northern Ireland.

I found it interesting yesterday, when I was in Committee discussing a Bill on the forfeiture of the profits of drug trading, to discover that there were three measures--one for each of the legal jurisdictions of the United Kingdom. They are all designed to come into operation on 1 July. The Scottish one was available only in draft form, but that did not matter. If such measures were consistently applied to Northern Ireland, even that would be a slight improvement. I hope that the Government will take not only such a small, tottering step, but a major step and include Northern Ireland in United Kingdom legislation whenever it includes Wales and Scotland. That would be well received by everyone in the Province and would certainly make the life of those in the House a lot easier.

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The IRA is another factor in the equation which, although mentioned in earlier debates, has not been discussed very much in this one. It has its own agenda and its campaign of genocide and murder will not stop at least until it achieves its agenda--a united Ireland from which the British influence is totally removed. As I said earlier, by "British influence" I do not mean soldiers standing on street corners, but those who vote for the British connection, call themselves British and carry British passports. The IRA believes that all those people are British, and it is perfectly correct to say that. We are British ; that is why we are being killed--it is for no other reason, and is a matter of national identity.

That national identity has been weakened by Government action during the past 20 years which has been an encouragement to the IRA. That is well enough known to the Secretary of State, a man quite capable of grasping all the nuances of the position in Northern Ireland. I cannot understand why he and his equally intelligent and able predecessors have failed to act out the logic of their understanding of the situation, rather than continually proceeding in a manner which they knew could never succeed. I hope that the present Secretary of State will go down in history as the person who grasped the nettle and did something positive.

Another problem, which annoys me intensely, and I am sure also annoys the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon), is the impression given by the news media, churchmen and other well-meaning people that the IRA would stop murdering people if only the SDLP would reach political agreement with the Unionist parties. It is an act of great wickedness to try to perpetuate that myth, as it is intended to mislead people about the IRA's agenda. That proposition also seems to suggest that the IRA will be influenced by decisions taken by the SDLP, and so implies that the IRA will do what the SDLP asks. That is a gross affront to nationalist representatives because, in reality, the hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume) has no influence or control over the IRA. That sickening and obnoxious falsehood is constantly trotted out. I know that the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh would be the first to admit that he cannot influence the actions of the IRA or even Sinn Fein, whose members they and we have faced often enough, at polling stations and elsewhere, to know that the SDLP and the IRA are not exactly good friends.

Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann) : The hon. Member is correct to mention the occasions when there is a difference between the SDLP and the IRA-Sinn Fein, but he will recall that the SDLP recently put much effort into trying to arrive at a common platform and an agreed nationalist campaign with the IRA's Sinn Fein, so we cannot say that there is an absolute barrier between the two.

Mr. Ross : One of the regrettable elements in the nationalist politics in Northern Ireland is that, on occasion, tribal pressures force people to behave in a way that they might not wish to.

Mr. Mallon : I had intended to respond to the hon. Gentleman's benign references to me and my party. However, I shall deal with the malign intervention--if I may call it that--of the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble). At no stage was there ever any suggestion of a common platform between my party and Sinn Fein. It has asked for it on numerous occasions and been told

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