House of Commons Hansard Debates for 27 Jun 1991

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Mr. Chris Butler (Warrington, South) : Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that the Select Committee will include a Member of the 1987 intake, because, with respect, it appears that the longer we are here the more institutionalised we are?

Mr. MacGregor : I hope that we shall be able to achieve a broad mix. It is becoming apparent that the longer we go on, the more the point that I made about the wide differences of view applies.

Ms. Harriet Harman (Peckham) : I welcome the Leader of the House's statement and the establishment of the Select Committee. Will he ask the Select Committee to bear in mind that the hours of the House are one of the reasons why there are so few women Members of Parliament, and that unless we change our hours Parliament will continue to be deeply unrepresentative of the country? I hope that the initiative succeeds. The right hon. Gentleman has taken a bold move, and I wish it success.

Mr. MacGregor : I am grateful to the hon. Lady. Her views on women in Parliament are well known and have been well rehearsed. If she is not a member of the Select Committee, I am sure that her views will be put to it. The Committee will cover that point, but its remit is much wider. Although I share her desire--this will be no surprise to her, because I have said it to her before--to see many more women Members of Parliament, I believe that it is often what happens outside this place rather than inside it that prevents more women from becoming Members of Parliament.

Mr. Robert Adley (Christchurch) : In answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Honiton (Sir P. Emery), my right hon. Friend said that he did not think that it would be appropriate for the Committee to consider the number of Members in this place. Will he give further thought to the question and say at some future date that it might consider that subject? He spoke of the increased work-load from Europe and constituency correspondence, but did not mention the huge amount of bumf that we receive from lobbying companies. In the meantime, will he provide a few shredders around the House so that we can deal with the problem immediately?

Mr. MacGregor : That separate matter perhaps should be considered by the Services Committee. I shall reflect on the question, but we must be careful not to give the Select Committee too wide a range of tasks by including the consideration of constitutional matters. It is clear from the views that are being expressed on the subjects that the Select Committee will cover that it has a big task. It would be a pity to divert it on to other things when we want it to report within a reasonable time.

Mr. Dick Douglas (Dunfermline, West) : Without transgressing on other parts of the United Kingdom such as Northern Ireland and Wales, may I ask whether the Leader of the House is aware that his statement would have had more efficacy if he had showed more interest in setting up a Select Committee on Scottish Affairs and had not been so laggardly? It was interesting to hear the Secretary of State for Scotland on the radio the other day blaming the House of Commons rather than the Government for the failure to set up that Committee.

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Will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that there will be a wide-ranging discussion and representation on the Committee? I know that there is a palsy-walsy feeling between the usual channels, but is the hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) happy that the right hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Jopling) should maintain chairmanship of the Committee after the next election?

Mr. MacGregor : There are obviously a number of imponderables in that respect. It was one of the issues that I was taking into account. Having canvassed widely in the House, it seemed to me that there was a feeling that the work should be started and, if possible, finished within the lifetime of this Parliament. I believe that if that is not possible, the work which I hope that the House will agree to the Select Committee doing will enable it to be completed in the next Parliament.

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the suggestion to set up a Select Committee on Scottish Affairs is not a matter for this Select Committee. He knows the difficulties involved in setting up a Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, and I have nothing further to add. The hon. Gentleman knows also that, after difficult negotiations, the Scottish Grand Committee is now meeting again, pretty regularly.

Mr. Cyril D. Townsend (Bexleyheath) : I commend my right hon. Friend on at last having the courage to grasp this nettle. Does he realise that many of his colleages and, I suspect, a far larger number of people outside believe that many of our procedures are ramshackle, archaic and absurd and that they bring us no credit? I draw my right hon. Friend's attention to the work that the Hansard Society has done in this direction.

Mr. MacGregor : No doubt the Hansard Society will wish to give evidence to the Select Committee and its work will be taken into account.

I note my hon. Friend's first comments, but I should like to make one point to him and the House as a whole. It is important to take practical steps that will have an effect. I concentrated on that earlier this year, in particular on getting the European Standing Committees off the ground.

I am aware that, with such a wide variety of views on all these initiatives, it is easy for some not to succeed. It is important to think the matter through thoroughly and, as far as possible, to have support from the House so that the procedures can work. I am glad that that is happening with the European Standing Committees. I was afraid that it would be too tempting to set them up and then to give way to demands to consider a number of matters again on the Floor of the House, as we did before. That would have defeated one of the purposes of the European Standing Committees.

Another of the purposes of the European Standing Committees was to allow for proper scrutiny of European legislation, and in that they are succeeding well. They have also enabled the House to rise earlier, on average, during the past few months. That shows the importance of taking account of practical aspects and, we hope, steps that command a consensus in the House.

Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann) : We, too, welcome the setting up of the Select Committee. The right hon. Gentleman said that its work would be wide-ranging. Will

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the Select Committee be able to consider the way in which Northern Ireland business is handled, which, I assure him, is a cause of general public outrage in Northern Ireland?

Will the Committee be properly balanced and comprise a wide range of Members, including regionally based Members? While the procedures of the House discriminate against Nothern Ireland, there is a distinct view which should be represented.

Mr. MacGregor : I very much hope that the Select Committee will be representative. It will be open to all Members from Northern Ireland, as it will be to those from anywhere else, to make representations on points that are within the Select Committee's terms of reference. It will be for the House to decide on the Select Committee's recommendations.

Mr. Ian Taylor (Esher) : My right hon. Friend is right to take credit for his initiative and to give credit to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe). Will the Select Committee consider ways in which Back Benchers can have more say, particularly in debates on Adjournment motions on wider political issues, by not having such debates preceded by a statement?

Yesterday, because a statement preceded an important debate, many Back Benchers could not speak in that debate. An advantage of having general debates is that they would give us more time to inspect the Opposition's plans. In an abject performance yesterday by the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman), the Labour party gave away an opportunity. General debates would give Back Benchers a much better opportunity to question inconsistencies in the Labour party's policies.

Mr. MacGregor : All those matters can be put to the Select Committee. There will always be practical problems in trying to fit into any parliamentary day the many demands to debate issues, for statements to be made by Ministers and so on. I fear that those practical problems will remain, whatever the Select Committee recommends, but it will certainly be possible to put suggestions to it.

Ms. Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent, North) : I, too, welcome the setting up of the Select Committee, which is long overdue. I stress the importance of the Select Committee being able to balance our differing needs. We have to attend to parliamentary business, spend time in our constituencies and spend time with our families. Will Crown immunity be part of the Select Committee's remit? To take part in proceedings, we need to have the resources to do our job and to have office space here. The conditions in which we all work are unsafe. It is high time that the issue of Crown immunity was taken up, too.

Mr. MacGregor : The hon. Lady may want to make her points to the Select Committee. Crown immunity would be outside the Select Committee's terms of reference. The Services Committee, on which the hon. Lady plays an important part, deals with such matters, and it would not be right to ask the Select Committee to go into them. Several hon. Members rose--

Mr. Speaker : Order. I shall have to stop the debate at 5 o'clock. The hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East (Mr. Paice) rose--

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : The hon. Gentleman just walked in.

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Mr. Speaker : Order. I think that the hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-East has been here, although he has not risen recently.

Mr. James Paice (Cambridgeshire, South-East) : As my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington, South (Mr. Butler) said, those of us who became Members at the last election welcome the proposed changes. In response to the point made by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms. Walley), may I remind my right hon. Friend that fathers have families too, and that we are just as concerned about finding time to spend with them. The changes should relate to all Members, whether London based or not, so that we can all find time to fit in the many duties placed upon us.

Mr. MacGregor : In some cases, the Select Committee will have to try to square the circle. Conflicting views will be expressed on many matters by London Members as well as by Members from other constituencies. It will be for the Select Committee to sift those views and to make recommendations to the House and then for the House to decide.

Mr. Graham Allen (Nottingham, North) : Will the Leader of the House accept my congratulations, too, on this great initiative? I warn him that conservatives on both sides of the House will jealously protect their little niches under the current procedures and the jobs that they have accumulated while they have been here. Will he take care to ensure that people outside who currently regard our proceedings as a farce and as irrelevant to our democracy reclaim this place by having full-time representatives here, working with proper facilities and the proper number of people to assist them here and in their constituencies? Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that those matters are included in the Select Committee's terms of reference?

Mr. MacGregor : The Select Committee will not consider offices or similar support. There are other ways in which such issues are addressed, and we are making considerable progress in that respect. The biggest issue is how to acquire accommodation. That programme is taking some time, but, as the hon. Gentleman knows, it is moving ahead fast.

It will be for the hon. Gentleman to express his view to the Select Committee, and I know what it is. It is legitimate for other hon. Members to take a different view and to make known their views. I reject the idea that those who bring to the House a wealth of experience from other employment should be ignored. I have always believed that that has a ligitimate role to play, but that is my personal view.

I do not accept that everything that happens in the House is bizarre. Over many years, we have built up procedures to enable the proper democratic process to take place. We are investigating whether we can introduce reforms to make that more effective.

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett (Denton and Reddish) : Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is a danger that the inquiry may get wider and wider and take longer and longer? Will he recommend that the Select Committee come up with an interim report, recommending a simple change of hours involving moving all our procedures forward three hours? We could try those hours for a month or two to see the full implications, rather than the inquiry taking a long time to look into all the implications.

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Mr. MacGregor : The hon. Gentleman is right, but there is a danger in asking the Committee to go too wide so that nothing happens. That is why I have rejected some of the suggestions made in the past few minutes. It will be open to the Select Committee to make interim recommendations if it wishes to do so. My experience is that sometimes the greatest progress is made by undertaking reforms bit by bit, but it is certainly not outside the Select Committee's terms of reference to adopt such an approach if it so wishes.

Mr. Ron Brown (Edinburgh, Leith) : I speak as a member of the Amalgamated Engineering Union. Surely the so-called Select Committee is merely a delaying tactic, because we could agree almost overnight to change the hours of the House. Back home, factory workers start at 8 am, or perhaps 7 am or even earlier, so we could follow their example and perhaps finish at 7 pm so that hon. Members could attend public meetings and face their constituents to explain their political views and organise how to fight back against the Government. The real challenge will come from outside--from the working class--so the hours of the House will have to change for the benefit of hon. Members who represent the socialist point of view.

Mr. MacGregor : The hon. Gentleman cannot resist rambling off the point whenever he speaks. He has a very simple view of life if he thinks that one step could be taken straight away and that it would have the support of all hon. Members. It is clear that he has not listened to the exchanges that have taken place, which show that there is a wide variety of views.

Several Hon. Members rose--

Mr. Speaker : Order. May I say to the hon. Members whom I have not called that I shall bear them in mind during the debate on the motion that the Leader of the House is to table, even though they be Front Benchers, to give them the opportunity to make known their points of view.

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : There are only four of us.

Mr. Speaker : Order. It is always easy to go beyond the allotted time on these occasions, but other hon. Gentlemen who wish to participate in the debate will be disadvantaged if I call the four extra hon. Members. I shall in any event have to ask those hon. Members who wish to participate to shorten their speeches so that they may all be called.

Mr. Skinner : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker : A point of frustration, I expect.

Mr. Skinner : You cannot kid me with that, Mr. Speaker. As the inquiry will be wide-ranging, I want to know whether you, as Speaker of the House, have been consulted, because some of us were not. I wonder whether you will give evidence to the Committee, because it would not be a bad idea. If so, perhaps you might tell the Leader of the House that if we are to shorten the hours of the House, let us also introduce clocking on, let us stop the pairing system and organised truancy and let us also stop the moonlighting.

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Mr. Speaker : That will be an admirable contribution when we get to the debate. As for consultation, I am always ready to be consulted, should the Committee so wish.

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.

Ordered,

That the draft Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.-- [Mr. Boswell.]

Royal Assent

Mr. Speaker : I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified Her Royal Assent to the following Acts :

The Motor Vehicles (Safety Equipment for Children) Act 1991. The Local Government Finance (Publicity for Auditors' Reports) Act 1991.

The Overseas Superannuation Act 1991.

The Maintenance Enforcement Act 1991.

The Crofters Forestry (Scotland) Act 1991.

The Football (Offences) Act 1991.

The Registered Homes (Amendment) Act 1991.

The Disability Living Allowance and Disability Working Allowance Act 1991.

The New Roads and Streetworks Act 1991.

The Children and Young Persons (Protection from Tobacco) Act 1991.

The Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1991.

The Criminal Procedures (Insanity and Unfitness to Plead) Act 1991.

The Road Traffic (Temporary Restrictions) Act 1991.

The Radioactive Material (Road Transport) Act 1991.

The Natural Heritage (Scotland) Act 1991.

The Property Misdescriptions Act 1991.

The Welfare of Animals at Slaughter Act 1991.

The Killingholme Generating Stations (Ancillary Powers) Act 1991. The Heathrow Express Railway (No. 2) Act 1991.

The London Underground (Victoria) Act 1991.

The Llanelli Borough Council (Dafen Estuary) Act 1991.

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The Royal Navy

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.-- [Mr. Boswell.]

[Relevant documents : The First Report from the Defence Committee on Royal Navy Short-term Savings : HMS "Challenger" and Decommissioning of Nuclear Fleet Submarines, HC 69, the Third Special Report containing the Government's Reply thereto, HC 431, the Third Report on Options for Change : Royal Navy, HC 266 and the Sixth Report on Royal Navy Submarines, HC 369.]

Mr. Speaker : I repeat that there are a large number of hon. Members who wish to participate. I hope that we shall not have the situation that we had yesterday, when a number were frustrated as a result of having an additional statement, as we have had today. Could hon. Members please keep their speeches short?

5.4 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement (Mr. Kenneth Carlisle) : It is my privilege to open our annual debaton the Royal Navy after a year of momentous events. Later, I shall discuss the consequences for the service of the greatly changed circumstances in eastern and central Europe, but I am proud to begin by recalling the Royal Navy's part in allied operations to secure Iraq's withdrawal from Kuwait. As last year's London declaration of the North Atlantic council confirmed, we maintain our armed forces solely for defensive purposes. Events in the Gulf were a salutary reminder of how dangerous and uncertain the world remains ; and proved splendidly that our armed forces could act with vigour and skill against aggression.

The Royal Navy was well placed to respond at once after Iraq's unprovoked invasion of Kuwait. It has been continuously present in the Gulf since 1980, providing assurance to British shipping during the Iran-Iraq war, and had an unrivalled knowledge of the area, enabling it to play a major role in the different phases of the maritime operations which followed. In all, 21 Royal Navy surface ships and two submarines in support, as well as 11 ships of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary were deployed to the region.

After the United Nations introduced sanctions against Iraq, royal naval ships played a key part in sealing the embargo. In all, Royal Navy ships challenged merchant vessels on 3,171 occasions in the period up to the formal ceasefire on 11 April, and were involved in 36 boardings. Once hostilities had begun, the Royal Navy's type 42 destroyers, HMS Gloucester and HMS Cardiff, were at the very fore of the allied navies in the forward air defence line, while Her Majesty's ships London, Exeter and Brave provided air defence for the mine hunter group.

The effectiveness of this air cover was shown when, on 25 February, HMS Gloucester detected on radar an Iraqi Silkworm missile, which had been targeted at a line of allied warships, including the US battleship Missouri. With only seconds to react, Gloucester fired two Sea Dart missiles and destroyed the Iraqi missile. Helicopters which flew from our frigates and destroyers greatly extended our fighting range. Lynx helicopters from HMS Gloucester, HMS Cardiff, HMS Brazen and HMS Manchester all played their part and their Sea Skua missiles destroyed many Iraqi vessels.

Throughout the operations, Iraqi mines posed a significant threat to coalition navies. This threat was

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brought home on 18 February when two US ships, the Tripoli and the Princeton, struck mines and were severely damaged. The Royal Navy's skill in counter mine operations is unrivalled, and five of its minehunters, Her Majesty's ships Atherstone, Cattistock, Hurworth, Ledbury and Dulverton, together with their command ship HMS Herald, bore the brunt of the work to hunt and destroy mines during the final two weeks of hostilities.

Mr. Gareth Wardell (Gower) : What support did we have from the navies of other allied forces by way of anti-mine warfare ships in the Gulf? How many countries had anti-mine warfare ships in the Gulf when hostilities started, and did any run for cover when the war began?

Mr. Carlisle : We played the most significant role and we were undoubtedly the best in hunting mines. That was a tremendous achievement, and I shall say more about that.

As the climax of the conflict approached, the minehunters led the way for allied ships through extensive minefields to allow amphibious forces to threaten Kuwaiti coasts and to allow United States battleships to bombard the shore. Even with the conflict over, Her Majesty's ships Brecon, Brocklesby and Bicester, with their command ship Hecla, are still actively clearing mines in the Gulf. Royal Navy Sea King helicopters were deployed ashore in support of the 1st British Division, particularly in casualty evacuation and logistic roles. Detachments from the Royal Marines were involved in boarding operations during sanctions enforcement, and provided extra air defence cover for our ships. None of that could have been done without the logistic support at sea provided by the Royal Fleet Auxiliary.

At the height of operations, 10 RFAs were deployed within the Gulf, while between them, RFAs Olna, Orangeleaf and Bayleaf supplied over 40,000 tonnes of diesel and 2,000 tonnes of aviation fuel by the end of the campaign. RFA Argus was deployed as a primary casualty reception ship, while RFA Diligence acted as a forward repair ship. Four landing ships logistic provided support both to the 1st British Division and to Royal Navy ships in the area. That was all a formidable effort.

Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow) : While the Minister is talking about the post-war situation, will he reflect on the possibility of the Navy's helping to do something about the oil slick in the coral atolls of Al Maradem, Kubbar and Qaru? His Department and the Department of the Environment have frequently been asked to ascertain exactly what is happening there. I hope that Dr. Nigel Downing and other experts will be taken there. Does the Minister regard it as part of the job that the Navy could now do to look at the ecology of the Gulf and to help those who are experts in it?

Mr. Carlisle : The hon. Gentleman knows that we have given much help against oil slicks during the recent events. We will always consider points of that seriousness which the hon. Gentleman makes. When the conflict erupted, the task ahead of our armed forces was daunting and the outcome uncertain. Before we could achieve anything, we had to ensure supremacy at sea. There was a threat from mines and missiles, and our helicopter crews came under fire from Iraqi positions

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several times. Crews spent long hours closed down for action stations, scanning the horizon for any sign of mines or missiles and always living with the threat of chemical or biological attack. I had the honour in April to go to Portsmouth with the First Sea Lord to welcome home the three minehunters Atherstone, Cattistock and Hurworth. I found it a moving occasion. Generations of British sailors have sailed from the choppy Portsmouth waters to secure our sea lanes and to fight for freedom. The young men--mostly of an age to be our sons--on those three small ships had spent over 60 days on continuous duty at the head of the Gulf--six hours on duty and six hours off duty without rest. The great shells of the Missouri passed over their heads, as did the Silkworm missile aimed against us. They carried out this dangerous work with skill and tenacity.

On their return to Portsmouth, I sensed no boasting : all I could detect was a modest pride in a duty fulfilled. That conduct exemplified the unmatched quality of the men and women in the Royal Navy. The House will wish to join me in paying tribute to the skill, courage and determination of the men and women of the Royal Navy and of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary during the conflict. Those men and women would recognise that the highest praise is to say that they upheld the finest traditions of the Royal Navy. We say that with a great respect.

Mr. Paddy Ashdown (Yeovil) : I note that the Minister seemed to miss out the Royal Marines, and I am sure that that was an oversight. However, I want to draw his attention to another matter. Would he say a special word about the commando helicopter pilots? I ask that, because on the very day that the Prime Minister announced in the House that no person involved in Operation Granby would be involved in Operation Haven, the wives and families of those helicopter pilots were bidding their husbands goodbye. They had taken part in Granby and were being sent out again for Haven. There is a little, understandable misgiving among those wives and families that the pilots' special contribution to Granby and Haven has not been formally recognised.

Mr. Carlisle : The right hon. Gentleman has anticipated me. We know that those helicopter pilots undertook a further term of duty with great honour and we pay tribute to them. I have mentioned the marines and I will do so again, which I hope will please the right hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Cyril D. Townsend (Bexleyheath) : My hon. Friend paid a well- deserved tribute to the women in the Royal Navy who served so gallantly in the Gulf. Is his Department having any second thoughts about the desirability of having women members of the armed forces serving on our smaller ships and submarines? I suggest that the subject should be carefully considered within his Department.

Mr. Carlisle : Most certainly. I will return to that point in my winding-up speech.

In recalling the achievements of our forces, we do not forget the suffering of the Iraqi people. We have taken a leading role in the international efforts to relieve the plight of the Kurdish refugees in northern Iraq. In this, too, the Royal Navy, and especially the Royal Marines have played an important part. Since its deployment to northern Iraq, 3 Commando Brigade has been carrying out a range of tasks, such as assisting refugees in their

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journey back down from the border camps, providing security and reassurance at mountain transit stations and helping the Kurds to re-establish themselves in their towns and villages. They have accomplished these tasks with fortitude and humanity, and--dare I say-- humour, ably helped by air support from Sea King and Lynx helicopters of the Royal Navy. They, and all those deployed on Operation Haven, deserve our support.

Nor should we overlook the contribution made by RFA Fort Grange to disaster relief after April's devastating cyclone in Bangladesh. Fort Grange delivered almost 400 tonnes of relief supplies and carried hundreds of relief workers to remote communities during the two-week operation. Those operations illustrate the flexibility of naval forces in undertaking a wide range of tasks outside the NATO area. I could, given time, quote other examples. The conclusion is clear ; we intend to retain that flexibility, and I am pleased in that connection to announce that we are planning a major task group deployment to the Pacific and the far east in 1992.

Mr. George Foulkes (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) : The Minister is right to say that the Navy and the other services from the United Kingdom played an important role in Bangladesh. There is a clear role for the services in disaster relief, which is greatly appreciated and which provides useful training for the personnel concerned. The Minister knows that there is some concern that in the United Kingdom, the total cost of the operation is charged to the budget of the Overseas Development Administration, whereas in other countries, account is taken of the training value and a reduction is made accordingly. As a result of the accounting method adopted in the United Kingdom, a huge amount is taken out of the ODA budget unnecessarily. Will the Minister reconsider that? Such work is of great value to personnel of all services in training.

Mr. Carlisle : There are many charges to the defence budget. However, the hon. Gentleman raises an issue for discussion within government.

It is, however, the security of our NATO area which is central to our national defence and which must determine the structure of our armed forces. I now turn, therefore, to the effects of "Options for Change" on the Royal Navy, on which the Select Committee on Defence has recently reported.

Mr. Dalyell : Will the Minister give way?

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