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personnel are dealing with that at Faslane. The Select Committee has had a busy Session, and I am grateful for this opportunity to speak in the debate.9.6 pm
Mr. Peter Griffiths (Portsmouth, North) : I thank the Under- Secretary of State for Defence Procurement for his kind words about Portsmouth. The Gulf conflict was the second time in a decade that people from the Hot Walls had to count service men going out. Thank God this time the number of people coming back tallied with the number who left. The Falklands conflict and the Gulf war showed that the Royal Navy had insufficient ships to be on station for a long time, including the time that it takes to reach a centre of operations. In its careful analysis of the Gulf war, the Ministry of Defence should look not only at the effectiveness of the weapons, the weapons system, the ships and the men but at the strain that the conflict placed upon the naval reserves. None of us expected Iraq to collapse as soon as the offensive began, but if the war had gone on much longer, our naval forces could have faced difficulties. The threat from the east has been reduced, but we must make sure that the Royal Navy has the ability to respond to future commitments. The Minister spoke about putting three new type 23 frigates out to tender. I hope that he did not think that I was being aggressive when I interrupted his speech to ask about the possibility of building one of those ships on the south coast. We all know why major shipbuilding orders in recent years have been directed to the north, but the economic circumstances which led to that have changed and we need a level playing field--or perhaps I should say a level, calm sea. I was grateful for my hon. Friend's straightforward answer that the competition will be open and fair, which is all that anyone can ask. The fleet, especially the surface fleet, will be smaller. Therefore, our vessels must be more ready for operations and more capable in service. The modernisation of the fleet and the reduction in the average age of service vessels will be an important feature of the next decade. As we reduce the number of ships on active service, we must ensure that the average age of vessels falls. The obvious advantage is that more modern vessels are usually more able and powerful and require smaller crews. It is important to remember that important savings can be made by reducing not only manpower but vessels.
We shall need extreme flexibility and skill in the management of the uniformed service men and non-uniformed back-up services in dockyards, especially at the fleet maintenance and repair base at Portsmouth. We have such flexibility between blue jackets and civilians at the naval base, but I want the widest possible flexibility at sea, which is why I was disturbed to hear a comment that appeared to disparage the role of women at sea. The Wrens should be judged on their ability to perform any duty on land or sea according to their technical competence, not some imaginary basis linked to their gender.
Young women in the Royal Navy do not expect to be protected from the harsh realities of naval life. They want to be accepted as equal partners. I trust that we shall use
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their skills to the full and will not take a patronising view, which is sometimes taken by the press, of the role that they can play in the sea-going ships of the Royal Navy.Flexibility is necessary on shore. I know that the Minister will not announce his decisions about the naval bases at Devonport, Portsmouth or Rosyth, but it is important that he reaches an early decision on management of the fleet maintenance and repair organisation at Portsmouth. Management need flexibility to show that they can effectively and efficiently use the capacity that must be maintained at all times to deal with problems in crises, but maintenance and repair facilities cannot be sufficient only for peace time beause they would be inadequate in a crisis.
There must be a way of maintaining and using those facilities. If the opportunity to tender for jobs that management such as at FMRO recognise are available, the Minister could retain capacity at places such as the naval base at Portsmouth and ensure that it is effective not only in a crisis but in more peaceful circumstances.
The naval base at Portsmouth is a great haven for the Royal Navy. There is no reason why it should not be a place where work is carried out on other countries' warships and on civil vessels. If the capacity exists, it should be possible for us to tender for that work. Never again should a British warship be taken from Portsmouth naval base to be repaired elsewhere when there is the capacity and the ability to work on her at Portsmouth, as there was with HMS Southampton.
The time has come for flexibility and for management on the spot to judge what Portsmouth has the capacity to do, to tender and to show its efficiency. In that way, the smaller, leaner fleets will be backed up effectively.
9.14 pm
Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow) : I shall share the time remaining, because I strongly believe that hon. Members who have sat through the debate should have time to speak.
First, there should be a two-day debate, as there was after the Crimean war, the Jameson raid, the first world war, the second world war and the Falklands war, summing up the pros and cons of what this country did in the Gulf.
Secondly, I ask the Minister to investigate the health of people on our ships. I received a letter stating :
"My son is out there with the RFA"--
Royal Fleet Auxiliary--
"and has had a chest infection and a rash on his face". If there were more time, I would read out more. Health is an urgent matter. The Minister of State for the Armed Forces said that the problem was equivalent to the effect of only "20 cigarettes a day", as I repeated in a question at column 419 of Hansard of 6 June this year. The Under-Secretary of State for Health referred me to the following as consequences of that number of cigarettes per day : cerebrovascular disease ; cancer of the lip, oral cavity and pharynx ; cancer of the oesophagus ; cancer of the larynx ; cancer of the pancreas ; and peripheral vascular disease. They are the threats to our people out there.
Thirdly, I repeat my question about Dr. Downing. The Government have done nothing since my visits to Ministers to get the major expert to look at the coral atolls. If only they would put the same effort into considering the ecological consequences as they did into Operation Desert Storm, things would be that much better.
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Before talking about the Navy's role, we should know what the perceived threat is. In particular, what is the perceived threat from Iraq's so-called nuclear capacity? We have heard a great deal about Tuleitha and the lack of monitoring. Will the Government investigate?If time permitted, I would have gone into the issue of Samarra and chemical weapons. If one is to have a force, especially a rapid reaction force, one had better understand what the perceived threat is. We should be given an explanation of what is happening with the rapid reaction force.
Finally, I hope that the Navy will do something in the light of a Harvard medical report on what is happening in Iraq. The Americans say that 170,000 children under five will die this year because of waterborne diseases. It is high time we lifted sanctions. The Navy should be used to bring medical supplies to kids. It is not their fault that Saddam Hussein leads their country.
I said that I would share the time, and I shall keep my promise. 9.17 pm
Dame Janet Fookes (Plymouth, Drake) : I shall condense my remarks considerably owing to the short time available.
I am increasingly disenchanted with the "Options for Change" exercise. I am not confident that it reflects our needs for our armed services, and I see the hand of the Treasury coming down more heavily than I would like. It means that there is considerable uncertainty among the armed forces and the support staff behind them. That is extremely bad for morale, and I hope that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State makes the final decisions as soon as possible. If he does not, I fear that the best will show the way with their feet--they will go out--and we shall have the devastating prospect of losing our best and most experienced men and women just when we need to retain them.
I wish to refer to the support staff. Hon. Members will know of my interest in and concern about Devonport dockyard. My hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers) said, more or less, "If it's there already, keep it." That is what he meant, although I have stripped the phrase of its elegance. However, I can also use that phrase. We are confident that we have a long- established dockyard which has had a great deal of capital injected into it, and which has, above all, an excellent work force. The work force did not wish to go into private contract management, but they have sustained the change and the shock very well. They have had no industrial strife, and they have given loyally and of their best under the new dispensation. The dockyard management, Devonport Management Ltd., have produced what I regard as a brilliant exposition of the role that they anticipate for the dockyard now and in the future. I hope that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement will take due account of that. The dockyard has a great deal to offer, and I have every confidence that, when making his final decision, my hon. Friend will see that for himself.
9.20 pm
Mr. Roland Boyes (Houghton and Washington) : We have had a long but important debate. I am sorry that the Chairman of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs is
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not in his place, but nevertheless, I want to thank him for ensuring that some essential documentation was made available to us for the debate.There was much of interest in the Minister's speech, especially in what he had to say about the Royal Navy's involvement in the Gulf. I shall deal with that in a moment. Supremacy in the sea was soon established and that proved to be a vital element in the war. It is invidious to pick out bits and pieces, but he rightly paid tribute to the super performance of our minehunters.
I am also glad that the Minister took the opportunity to inform us that he has invited tenders for three further type 23 frigates and that tenders are expected by October from shipyards which, wherever they are, would welcome the work that the orders would bring. The Government's attitude to the future of HMS Fearless and HMS Intrepid has been raised. I hope that the Minister will have an opportunity to comment on that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, West and Penistone (Mr. McKay) asked about HMS Endurance, and I shall comment on that matter later. I give the Minister notice of that so that he can prepare an answer for us.
My hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannan (Mr. O'Neill and the hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Mr. Douglas) mentioned naval bases. There are issues that need to be resolved extremely quickly, and the decision should be reported in Parliament but not in the sneaky way used for the decision on Challenger 2. That was announced on Friday morning without any warning to those of us who live in or represent areas where Challenger is manufactured.
The hon. and learned Member for Colchester, North (Sir A. Buck), who is not in his place, asked whether Labour would maintain a nuclear deterrent. The answer is, emphatically, yes. I am glad to see that the hon. Member for Harborough (Sir J. Farr) is in his place. I am sure that all hon. Members hope that he is recovering. I may be about to misquote him, although I tried to write down carefully what he said, and I hope that I have done so correctly. He said that there was a delicate balance between building the fourth Trident boat and--as he said later when weighing the issue, although I am not clear about this--cancelling the Trident programme altogether. However, if he was referring only to the fourth boat, that is what I shall put on the record for him. He can nod, thus avoiding the necessity for standing.
The right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) made a strong case for the EH101 helicopter and gave a strong warning, with which I agree, that if an order was not placed quickly, there could be difficulties for the company. He also asked for a defence review, for which the Opposition have been asking for a long time.
The hon. Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers) made a plea for Portsmouth and Gosport. We expect such pleas from hon. Members for their constituencies. My hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) made a passionate speech about the sinking of the fishing boat and explained what could be done to prevent such incidents in future. The hon. Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates) talked about the importance of the amphibious force, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannan. We want to know the Government's intentions on Fearless and Intrepid.
My hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton (Mr. McFall), who is not in his place, talked about the contract
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for construction of the Trident base. He went into detail about the financial implications, but it is not necessary for me to go into them now.The hon. Member for Portsmouth, North (Mr. Griffiths), who also seems to have nipped off, spoke about the reduced threat from the east and said that we must measure the worldwide commitments of the Royal Navy. He also mentioned the type 23 frigates and the possibility of building one on the south coast. It is not my position, especially as my constituency is quite near Newcastle, to determine how and when the contracts are given, or who gets them.
My hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell), in what I thought was a supportive speech, stressed the urgency of the health question, and he especially mentioned the Harvard medical report which said that there was a risk that up to 70,000 children in Iraq might die in the near future.
Mr. Boyes : My hon. Friend corrects me ; the figure is 170,000. The hon. Member for Plymouth, Drake (Dame J. Fookes), in two minutes, mentioned two important points. The first was her disenchantment with "Options for Change". She referred, as hon. Members have done many times, to the heavy hand of the Treasury interfering a bit too much in defence matters.
I put on record my attitude and that of my hon. Friends to the Gulf war. Last week, we saw the march past and the fly past of the forces who had participated in the Gulf war. It was right that the tone was one of gratitude that so many of our soldiers, sailors and airmen had returned safely, and of respect for those who were prepared to lay down their lives.
We must remind ourselves in the post-cold-war world that our military forces may increasingly be called to fight in wars far away which do not directly threaten Britain. That requires even greater courage and commitment from our forces, and those resources should not be squandered. I mention as an aside the quiet and considered words of Prince Charles, and I am sure that everyone thought that he had found exactly the right mood for the occasion.
The Navy's part in the Gulf war is frequently overlooked, but its importance was established long before the war began and continues to this day. The United Nations imposed trade sanctions against Iraq which involved a major naval policing operation in the Persian gulf and in the Red sea. Royal Navy destroyers and frigates were heavily involved in that operation, which was a classic demonstration of the use of naval forces in practical action short of the use of force. It is a sad commentary on the war that we have now returned to a strategy of sanctions as the principal lever on Saddam Hussein. Another aspect of the Navy's operations in the Gulf has been the continuing effort to clear the many hundreds of sea mines laid by the Iraqis. The benefits of multinational co-operation have been especially apparent here. The long experience of joint mine counter-measures work in the NATO standing naval force channel has paid dividends. Mine-clearing operations in the Gulf may take many more months, so it is important that we remember the personnel
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who are still out there clearing up the mess and that we also remember that the Government are set to reward many of those mine counter-measures personnel by closing their base at Rosyth. Because of the trickiness of the situation, I want to say only a few words about naval base closures. The proposed cuts in naval bases in the United Kingdom are a further example of tragic incompetence on the part of the Government. If our forces are to be cut, clearly some shore bases will close, but the tragedy is that the Government's hostility to planning, and their use of public money to ease painful economic transitions, have prevented them from establishing a clear policy and mechanism for dealing with the effects of base closures. Several years ago it became obvious that there would be some major changes in international relations, and there was every opportunity for the Government to set up a diversification agency--as the Labour party will, when we gain power in a few months' time. A diversification agency could improve alternative investment opportunities and provide training for workers moving out of declining defence activities. But the Government ploughed on as if nothing was happening, blinded by their faith in the market. I am afraid that it is already too late to cushion the blow for many workers and naval personnel who will be thrown on to the scrap heap by this Government's obsession with market forces.That blow could not have come at a worse time. Unemployment is again soaring, and in the Rosyth area there is the added problem that private sector manufacturing employment is also heavily dependent on military work, which means that private sector companies are also laying off workers because of defence cuts. Moreover, at Rosyth, Ministers have clearly not been in control of the agenda. Countless leaks have shown that Rosyth was, indeed, the favourite for closure. The remark of the Minister for Defence Procurement that his own local naval base, Devonport, was definitely not intended for closure exacerbated the situation. As I said, I fear that it may now be too late to make any serious efforts to provide alternative work and training opportunities for those made redundant by base closures. The Prime Minister's competence is at stake here. We have been told in newspaper reports that he has taken command of the Rosyth naval base closure problem since he became fed up with the poor co-ordination between the Navy, the MOD staffs and the Scottish Office. If that is true, and not just a piece of Downing street press office hype, he had better have something to show for it, and soon. We should be told now what is to happen at Rosyth, the Portland training base, Devonport and Portsmouth, to put an end to damaging speculation and leaks.
I have visited Rosyth and Portland. The question that we must ask ourselves about Portland is whether we want a training base for naval ships. If so, there is no-tide, instant access water at Portland and revenue from the ships coming in. I make those remarks about Rosyth and Portland because I have just been to both bases, but that does not mean that I am placing more emphasis on them than on Devonport and Portsmouth. All the bases must be considered equally, on the basis of their special attributes.
The hon. Member for Portsmouth, North mentioned women at sea, and I should like to respond to his comments. There has been much publicity about the recent court martial of a Wren and a naval officer who had an
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affair on HMS Brilliant while it was deployed in the Gulf. The episode has been cited by some as evidence that the Navy's new policy of sending Wrens to sea does not work.It is important to realise that there are two entirely separate issues at stake here. The first is the question whether having Wrens on combat ships leads to distraction of personnel from their duties and adversely affects the efficient operation of the ship. The second is the effect of any offshore liaison on morale among dependants ashore.
I believe that the first question is a red herring. Many other countries now have mixed crews on their combat vessels, and there is no evidence of degraded operational capabilities. If anything, the presence of women in combat posts at sea improves morale and sharpens commitment. Moreover, even in this era of cuts in force levels, there remains a shortage of skilled personnel in the Navy. One of the simplest and most effective ways of overcoming that shortage is to open the force to women. The Navy would now find it very difficult to get along without Wrens serving at sea in such specialisms as navigation, engineering and the operation of radar and sonar equipment.
The second criticism, which is that the prospect of offshore liaisons adds to the stresses and strains of life for Navy wives, is more difficult to address. Two things can be said about that. First, I am not convinced that the problem is significantly greater in the Navy than in any other service. Where men and women are deployed away from home for lengthy periods, whether on land or at sea, a certain amount of "interaction" is bound to occur. The Navy's problem is that it has taken the lead in placing women in combat posts and has therefore put itself in the spotlight.
I do not want to belittle the problem. The tensions of life at home for those who have spouses at sea for months at a time are immense. Some Navy marriages founder for those reasons. It is therefore vital that the Government learn from the adverse publicity given to the HMS Brilliant affair. They should take the opportunity of "Options for Change" to create much more stability for Navy personnel. Reduced combat readiness and a decline in personnel shortages due in part to the deployment of Wrens at sea should allow the Navy to increase the time spent by sailors at home and to reduce the frequency of posting which may be a major factor in domestic disruption.
There is a second, broader point. In future, as the armed forces becomes smaller and the immediate military threats to Britain subside, it will be more important to ensure that the forces are not isolated from society by the perpetuation of anachronistic traditions and prejudices.
A Navy in which men and women play equally important professional roles is more likely to attract respect and appreciation than one from which half the population are automatically excluded from the most important jobs. The "Newsview" editorial of the July edition of Navy News addresses that problem. It states :
"Yet it remains unlikely whether any of this has altered the entrenched views--whether for or against--expressed when the women-at-sea policy was announced anyone ever imagined that you could take a group of healthy young men and women and lock them up together for weeks at a time without a few of them succumbing to the temptation to jump into bed with each other."
I want to refer briefly once more to HMS Endurance. I have been on board that vessel, although I have not been
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to sea on it when I was in the Falklands. The Falkland islanders think that the vessel is very special. If we had lived in that area and witnessed the arrival of the Argentines after the Endurance had sailed away, we would understand how they felt. They do not want that to happen again. It has long been accepted that the decision to withdraw HMS Endurance from the south Atlantic in 1982 was a major factor in the Argentine's decision to invade the Falklands. Another attempt is now being made to scrap HMS Endurance, this time at the behest of the MOD as part of the overall cuts being imposed on the Navy. I hope that the Minister will consider that point most carefully because it is important to many people, and many of us feel strongly about it. Again, Navy News carries an excellent article about HMS Endurance and its role in the south Atlantic. It refers to the significance of the vessel's presence in the area and states that it has--Mr. Mates : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Boyes : I have only a few minutes left, but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman. However, I must point out that I did not ask any hon. Member to give way to me this evening.
Mr. Mates : If there is to be a Labour Government, will it be Labour policy to replace HMS Endurance?
Mr. Boyes : Labour has not been in government for a very long time and there are a host of issues that we would have to address, and HMS Endurance would certainly be one of them. I am sure that we would find a role for the vessel in the south Atlantic.
We can justify and be proud of our service men and women who serve this country and who have been prepared to lay down their lives to protect our democracy. We owe them much. If we ask people to go into most dangerous situations, often at short notice, we must ensure that, as a minimum, their weapons systems are as good as any that a potential adversary may possess. We have a duty and an obligation to make that necessary provision for our forces.
9.39 pm
Mr. Kenneth Carlisle : It is a great pleasure to reply to the debate. I shall try to respond to as many points as possible in the time available. I should like first to say something about the people in the Royal Navy.
Mr. Douglas : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not the custom for a Minister, if he speaks twice in a debate, to ask the leave of the House?
Mr. Carlisle : I beg the House's pardon. With the leave of the House, I will speak again.
I am delighted that hon. Members have praised the people who served in the Gulf so magnificently. I also pay tribute to those who were at home on the support side--for example, in the bases, dockyards, research establishments and elsewhere. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers) reminded us, we must pay respect also to their families. The whole House joins in praise for all those who were involved in any way in the Gulf conflict.
As people are the core of our Navy, we should never forget, even in this age of high technology, how much we owe to the skills and dedication of our people in the Navy.
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I am very glad to say that recruitment is generally buoyant, although recruitment targets in future will be lower in order to stay within the manning levels required post-"Options". The high outflow levels experienced in 1990-91 have eased. The challenge that faces us in the period ahead is to improve retention rates among the officers and ratings whom we need and to manage the gradual reduction in overall numbers that is necessary under "Options for Change", without serious disruption either to individuals or to career and branch structures. We intend to do that as carefully and as sensitively as possible.I should like also to say a word about the Wrens. My hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, North (Mr. Griffiths) rightly reminded us of that matter. In last year's debate, my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Armed Forces announced that members of the Wrens were to serve at sea in surface ships. We can now usefully take stock of how that decision is working out in practice.
Wrens are now being recruited and trained alongside male ratings in almost all branches. The exceptions are submarines and small ship branches, but only because of the difficulties of providing a reasonable level of privacy for both men and women in the restricted accommodation areas in those vessels. We are, however, looking to see what might be done on that in the future. We are also considering the feasibility of women serving in the Royal Fleet Auxiliary and in the Royal Marine Corps. As was announced earlier this year, we have already opened employment opportunities for women as naval air crew.
Mr. Douglas : Will the Minister give way on that point?
Mr. Carlisle : No, I shall not give way--I have very little time to answer the points.
Women are serving in 10 major ships, and we are encouraged by the result. As an illustration, I cite a letter which the commanding officer of HMS Brilliant, whose ship was the subject of some quite scurrilous press reports, wrote to The Daily Telegraph. In his letter, Captain Elliott describes a gruelling 17-hour battle undertaken by his mixed crew during service in the Gulf to put out fires in a merchant vessel which had suffered a major engine room and superstructure fire. He describes the scene on board as a burning, blacked-out, flooded and smoke-filled jagged mass of metal, and ended by saying :
"so to all you doubting Thomases--stop doubting. There is no need to. From where I have had the privilege of seeing it during my time in Command, this mixed manning has been a dramatic success and I will stand up and say that to any man with my ship's company right behind me."
Captain Elliott's words provide a necessary corrective to the disproportionate publicity that was given to the one or two isolated problems that occurred.
Many points have been raised in this wide-ranging debate and as I shall be unable to cover them all now, I shall write to those hon. Members whom I do not answer directly. There has been some wide-ranging questioning of "Options for Change". As I said when I opened the debate, "Options" and our framework for the Navy are based on assessment of strategic need and on the threat that we face. The House will remember that, in 1980 and 1981, when we were also facing a squeeze on public expenditure, spending on the armed forces increased because of the threat that we faced. At the present time of difficulties with public
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spending, we can contemplate with tranquillity a small decline in our spending on defence because the threat is different. Our strategy and framework depend on the threat.I am glad that the House generally, including the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) and my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, North, welcomed our order for type 23 destroyers. There will, of course, be a fair competition for the orders for the ships. We hope to get the tenders back by October. We shall look at them carefully and order as we feel fit. I confirm that those orders will be placed.
On the other hand, I am sorry that we do not see any need at present for more orders this year for the Sandown class of minehunter. However, I welcome the praise for the minehunter's performance in the Gulf, and especially that from my hon. Friends the Members for Davyhulme (Mr. Churchill) and for Harborough (Sir J. Farr). It is a delight to have my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough back in his place so pertinent, lucid and clear. He is an example to us all. The quality of our minehunters and of the crews who man them is supreme. My hon. Friends were right to say that they rescued minehunters from other countries when they were surrounded by mines in the Gulf. Our quality is unrivalled. We can be truly proud of it.
I have not yet had the time to read the Select Committee's report on submarines, which was produced only today. Obviously, we shall read it with great interest, and reply to it in due course. I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates) has returned to the debate. I was interested in his comments about collaboration with the French. As he knows, we hope to collaborate with them on the anti-warfare frigate which will replace the type 42 destroyer at the turn of the century. We have already signed a joint collaboration agreement over the local area missile system. Those are two examples of the way in which we are starting to collaborate. I hope that we shall expand those efforts.
A central issue in the debate was submarines. I was glad to be able to announce the studies that will take forward the SSN classes. The studies will last about a year. The Select Committee envisages that we shall be able to meet our commitments if we start building by 1996 or 1997, which is certainly our aim.
My hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (Mr. Franks) made a clear speech about his constituency and submarines. Our aim is to preserve our skills in building submarines. The fourth Trident will take up some of the slack at the Barrow yard. We envisage that, after the fourth Trident, the new submarines--the development of the Trafalgar class--will retain VSEL's capacity to build submarines. We believe that our ability to build such submarines is of strategic necessity and we intend to preserve that capacity at VSEL. The new SSNs are not second-class submarines--they are the most sensible way to use our existing skills, and on them we can apply the most up-to-date technology, so they will be the best such submarines in the world, if not world beaters.
Mr. Ian Bruce rose --
Mr. Churchill (Davyhulme) rose --
Mr. Carlisle : No. I am afraid that I do not have time to give way. I hope that my hon. Friends will forgive me.
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Some hon. Members criticised the number of SSKs. These new SSKs are advanced ships, but we believe that four is sufficient at present. It is the first new SSK for 30 years. We decided after careful consideration that we had the right balance between the SSKs and SSNs.While we are on the subject of submarines, I was challenged about the safety of Polaris. I can confirm to the House that we continue to deploy our nuclear deterrent. Obviously, I cannot discuss operational details but I can confirm to the House that the submarines go to sea only if they are considered safe and we follow carefully the independent advice on safety proffered by the Nuclear Powered Warship Safety Committee.
The right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown), who explained why he could not be here for the reply to the debate, was anxious about the EH101. Nine prototypes are already built. We are evaluating the tenders for the prime contractorship for the EH101. We certainly hope to make an announcement before the end of July, as the right hon. Gentleman particularly wanted. However, we shall decide on any orders in due course when we consider that the time is right.
The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mrs. Michie) was anxious about the submarine movement notification scheme. I can advise her that the extension of the Clyde area submarine movement notification scheme announced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Epson and Ewell (Mr. Hamilton) on 24 June covers the coastal sea areas in which dived submarine operations are most prevalent. I understand that the extension has been warmly welcomed by the Scottish and Clyde fishermens associations. While we have no plans at present for a further extension of the scheme, I can inform the hon. Lady that we are considering the possibility of operating the notification scheme in other waters.
I am also aware of the great interest in fisheries protection. The Royal Navy fisheries protection squadron continues to perform its tasks with great skill. Currently, 15 Royal Naval vessels are deployed in the fisheries protection task and we consult closely with the relevant fisheries department about requirements.
Considerable anxiety was expressed during the debate about the future of the bases. That is understandable. It is generally recognised that a smaller Navy leads to a smaller support area. That is self-evident. Therefore, we are considering the future of all our naval bases and other establishments. I have to advise the House that no decisions have yet been taken. [Interruption.] We shall consider carefully all the arguments before coming to any decisions. I recognise that uncertainty is undesirable and we wish to bring it to an end. [Interruption.] Will the hon. Member for Clackmannan please contain himself?
I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Mr. Bruce) did not have a chance to put in his bid for his naval base at Portland. However, I can advise the House that he constantly badgers me about the excellence of Portland, and we listen to what he says. There is great concern about HMS Endurance. I can confirm that Endurance has not been decomissioned. She has entered her routine maintenance period in Portsmouth on return from the Antarctic, as normal. As hon. Members will know, Endurance is a relatively old ship, operating in a demanding environment. She will have an extensive structural survey during this maintenance period and deployment this winter will obviously depend on the results of that survey.
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The question of amphibiosity is considered to be important by many hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Davyhulme. We have reconfirmed our commitment to amphibiosity and it might be encouraging for my hon. Friend to know something which is public knowledge already, though not widely recognised--that we have invited tenders for design studies for replacements of the LPD, the Fearless and the Intrepid. So we are taking the first steps towards replacing those ships.I restate the Government's commitment to the Royal Navy and our recognition of the central role that it plays in our defence. Hon. Members in all parts of the House have today demonstrated the respect that we have for the Royal Navy, and we saw in the Gulf what it can do when stretched to the limit, with the excellence, courage and skill of the people involved operating their first-rate equipment. Our commitment for the Royal Navy contrasts starkly with the obscure and grudging muddle which is the defence policy of the Opposition. The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) put the Opposition's defence policy more honestly and clearly than most when he called for a cut in spending. He was only putting into words the implied policy of the Labour party--of a cut of £9 billion or one third in the defence budget.
The hon. Gentleman said that we should get rid of the nuclear deterrent. As we know, the Labour party refuses to give a commitment to preserve our deterrent should the Russians or any third world country continue to possess nuclear weapons. Opposition Members fail time and again to come up with any clear decision or statement on that issue. So from our point of view, the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish stated true Labour party policy on defence.
Labour, by default, has declared, as I understand it, one-sided nuclear disarmament. By contrast, we are facing the future with an open and sensible defence policy, and my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport said in an interesting speech that we must always keep the nuclear deterrent, not only against Russia but against tyrants on the make. We must always meet a changing threat.
The importance that we attach to maintaining strong naval forces is reflected in our investment in new equipment and manpower for the future. I have referred to some of the new equipment and have answered some of the points that were raised in the debate about manpower and equipment. I have not been able to answer various other matters, but I shall reply to hon. Members by letter as soon as possible.
The clear message is that with us in office in the coming years, the Royal Navy will continue to play its proud part in meeting our commitments to NATO and further afield and in protecting British interests wherever they need to be protected.
It being Ten o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
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