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House of Commons
Thursday 4 July 1991
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
Midland Metro Bill
(By Order)
Read the Third time, and passed.
King's Cross Railways Bill
(By Order)
British Railways Bill
(By Order)
Orders for consideration, as amended, read.
To be considered on Thursday 11 July.
London Regional Transport (Penalty Fares) Bill
(By Order) Order for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time on Tuesday 9 July at Seven o'clock.
East Coast Main Line (Safety) Bill
(By Order) Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [13 May], That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Debate further adjourned till Thursday 11 July.
Mr. Speaker : As the next two Bills have blocking motions, with the leave of the House I shall put them together.
British Railways
(No. 3) Bill-- [Lords] (By Order)
Commercial and Private Bank Bill
[Lords](By Order) Orders for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time on Thursday 11 July.
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Oral Answers to Questions
HOME DEPARTMENT
Television Licences
1. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what proposals he has to introduce a progressive method of charging for television licences.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peter Lloyd) : We have no proposals to change the present methods of charging for television licences.
Mr. Skinner : The Government and the Prime Minister reckon to believe in a classless society--right? Yet some pensioners on one side of the street get free TV licences while some on the other side do not and some pensioners in warden accommodation get free licences while some in other warden accommodation do not. A rich pensioner living in The Savoy hotel gets a licence free, so I do not want the Minister to give me any of that crap about-- [Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker : Order. It is not an unparliamentary word, but it is distasteful.
Mr. Skinner : So I do not want any of that crap coming from the Government. If the Minister says to me, "Where is the money to come from?" I say, "Tax the Queen."
Mr. Lloyd : The hon. Gentleman makes his usual point, but in slightly different words. As he well knows, the Government believe that the right way to help pensioners is through the social security system, not by complicated and bureaucratic adjustments to the licence fee. That is why pensioner rates for those on income support were increased by an additional £200 million in 1989 and a further £80 million earlier this year, over and above the increase in inflation.
Mr. Holt : Does my hon. Friend believe that we in the Conservative group of northern Members are getting good value for their television licences when they have been trying for months to get an appointment with the director general of the BBC, who finds himself too busy to meet us?
Mr. Lloyd : I do not believe that that point has any relevance to the question, unless it involves the collection of the concessionary licence fee. If so, that is entirely a matter for the BBC and I am sure that its management will see this exchange in Hansard.
Mr. Battle : Does the Minister accept that the rules on concessionary television licences seem to be arbitrary and a shambles because pensioners in identical housing and income circumstances, living next door to each other, may find that one has a concessionary licence and the other does not? They find that an unfair rule. When will the Government sort out the shambles?
Mr. Lloyd : The Government have sorted out the rules, which are crystal clear. If the hon. Gentleman read through them, he would find them easy to follow. The rules are that pensioners of more than 60 years of age in local
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authority or housing association homes with their own secure border with a warden on the premises for more than 30 hours a week qualify.Juvenile Crime
2. Mr. Anthony Coombs : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what measures his Department is currently taking to encourage greater respect for the law in young people and to reduce juvenile crime.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. John Patten) : In addition to the widely welcomed Criminal Justice Bill, we are funding projects to tackle offending by young people through the probation service and the safer cities progamme, as well as encouraging junior crime prevention panels.
Mr. Coombs : I welcome those initiatives, but is my right hon. Friend aware of the overwhelming conclusions of the conference set up this week by the Institute of Economic Affairs and attended by Professor Halsey, one of my right hon. Friend's constituents, which links juvenile crime and delinquency with irresponsible parenting and the instability of families? Does he agree that the time is right for an initiative from Government for a code of parenting, which will not only point out to parents their rights and responsibilities, but give practical ideas on how to fulfil them?
Mr. Patten : I am delighted to hear of the late conversion to common sense of my distinguished constituent, Professor Halsey, for long a socialist guru in these matters. What my hon. Friend has said deserves the closest attention. Our most important job is to attempt to steer young people away from the temptation of crime in the first place. That is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State recently met the Secretaries of State for the Environment, for Health and for Education and Science to discuss exactly the sort of issue to which my hon. Friend referred. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary hopes to make an announcement about this quite soon.
Sir Patrick Duffy : Does the Minister agree that for a depressingly increasing number of ever-younger people the first activity that puts them outside the law is under-age drinking?
Mr. Patten : It is one of the activities that do. Thieving by those under the age of criminal consent--nine--is another. In the last year for which figures are available 8,000 such acts were committed by those under the age of criminal consent.
I always listen with care to the hon. Gentleman. I would add to his analysis only the fact that the roots of the process of stopping young people turning to crime are to be found in two places : the family and schools.
Mr. Shersby : Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the most effective ways of preventing juvenile crime is for local authorities to provide adequate secure accommodation? Is he aware that one of the principal reasons why so many young people are able to re-offend is that they quickly abscond from their accommodation and then commit the same crimes again and again? Will he discuss these matters with the Secretaries of State for the Environment and for Health?
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Mr. Patten : We are doing that at the moment. I agree that in some parts of the county local authorities are, unfortunately, not keen on providing secure accommodation and although I think that some social workers are too often and too freely criticised, some of them, alas, in some parts of the country, are refusing their duty to keep young people under close surveillance. That in turn sometimes contributes to their going out and offending and then ending up in a real prison--and that is a mistake.
Mr. Winnick : Would not it encourage young people as well as others to respect the law if a notorous fascist agitator such as Le Pen was kept out of Britain? Why is that poisonous man being allowed in?
Mr. Speaker : Order. He is not a juvenile, so the point does not seem to arise.
Immigration
3. Mr. Janman : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has any proposals to repeal the primary purpose rule ; and if he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Kenneth Baker) : I have no plans to repeal the primary purpose rule, which I regard as an important safeguard against abuse.
Mr. Janman : My right hon. Friend will be aware that if the Labour party was elected to govern this country it would do exactly what he has said that he will not do. Does he agree that if the primary purpose rule were abolished that would result in a massive increase in secondary immgration to this country which the British people would abhor? Does he agree that that would be disastrous?
Mr. Baker : The primary purpose test prevents abuse by those prepared to enter into marriage solely to settle in the United Kingdom. It continues to be our policy that genuine spouses should be allowed to join their partners in this country, but any objective person knows that marriage can be and sometimes is exploited as a route to settlement in the United Kingdom and that there must be some protective rules. We intend to retain them.
Rev. Martin Smyth : I welcome the right hon. Gentleman's statement that genuine cases will still be considered. Does he accept that those who abuse the rules and who, by playing the system, are allowed to remain in this country damage the cause of people who have genuine reasons for coming and who do not know how to get in?
Mr. Baker : I agree with the hon. Gentleman. Officers in my immigration service try to seek out those who abuse the rules who often, by so doing, keep others out. I remind the hon. Gentleman that about 27,000 spouses are allowed in each year, 7,000 of them from the Indian sub- continent, and that 2,500 are ejected. The rule by no means relates only to the Indian sub-continent. For example, it also applies to mail order brides from Thailand and the Philippines.
Mr. Budgen : Does my right hon. Friend recognise that any controls on immigration are bound to be resented by those who fall on the wrong side of them? None the less, strict controls are necessary so that the indigenous population is not subjected to massive new immigration. That is the precondition for good race relations.
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Mr. Baker : My hon. Friend has put it very well. The rule is an important safeguard against abuse by those who are prepared to consider marriage as a device for securing admittance. My hon. Friend may recall that when a Labour Government were elected in 1974 they abolished the restrictions on spouses, but three years later they were so concerned about the numbers coming in that they introduced the marriage of convenience test, which is the forerunner of the primary purpose rule. I am disappointed that Labour now wishes to repeal that rule.Mr. Darling : Does the Home Secretary accept that, while we must guard against abuses, it is absurd that a French citizen can enter this country with his non-EC spouse and their dependants under the age of 21 whereas a British citizen cannot marry a non-EC spouse without having to prove a negative under the primary purpose rule? Does not that absurdity merit some revision so that at least a British citizen and a French citizen are placed on an equal footing in this country?
Mr. Baker : That example does not lead me to the position of the hon. Gentleman's party--that one should scrap the primary purpose rule. If that was done, I am sure that marriage would be exploited, not only by people from the Indian sub-continent but by people in other parts of the world. It is prudent to retain the rule.
Prisons (Staffing)
4. Mr. Hinchliffe : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on staffing levels in prisons.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mrs. Angela Rumbold) : At the beginning of June there were about 21,550 prison officers and just over 10,400 other staff in post in establishments. That represents 24 per cent. more prison officers and 22 per cent. more other staff than when "fresh start" was introduced in 1987.
Mr. Hinchliffe : Is the Minister aware that Wakefield prison is still 23 officers short of the figure agreed under "fresh start"? Does she agree that it is worrying that the governor of that prison has said that next year could be the prison service's Armageddon because of staffing problems in prisons such as Wakefield? Do we have to wait for another Strangeways before we get proper staffing?
Mrs. Rumbold : There are 4,200 more prison officers than there were before the introduction of "fresh start" in 1987. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will listen to the facts rather than to his local prison officers. Wakefield prison has had a drop of about 13 per cent. in its inmate population and an increase of about 18 per cent. in its prison officer population.
Mr. Moss : Following my right hon. Friend's recent announcement of her wish to see sports facilities at prisons made available for public use- -a change of policy which I heartily welcome in connection with the new Whitemoor prison at March in my constituency--does she foresee any implications for changes in staffing levels to accommodate that new policy?
Mrs. Rumbold : My hon. Friend is referring to the custom of prisons allowing people from the community to
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use their sports facilities. We welcome that and it is now common practice throughout the prison service. It has not necessitated more prison officers.Mr. Sheerman : Does not the Minister realise that the director general of prisons action in effectively freezing staffing levels in April has led to deteriorating regimes in some prisons? The position is serious and the Government's mishandling of "fresh start" means that there are fewer officers on duty than there were before 1987. The Minister knows that there are deteriorating regimes in many of the prisons that are most likely to cause problems. In the spirit of Woolf, should not something be done to make sure that those regimes are improved rather than letting them go downhill rapidly? If action is not taken, there will be another crisis in British prisons.
Mrs. Rumbold : I remind the hon. Gentleman that, as I said earlier, we have 4,200 more prison officers in the system. Prison officers work far fewer hours than hitherto because of the introduction of "fresh start". It is an excellent scheme which has greatly benefited both prison officers and the prisons.
I remind the hon. Gentleman also that, in his report, Lord Justice Woolf suggested to the Prison Officers Association that it should work hard to implement his recommendations. That must include working with headquarters and management to ensure that the best possible regimes can be introduced in our prisons.
Sir John Wheeler : Does my right hon. Friend agree that there would be even more prison officers available for duty at no extra cost to the taxpayer if there was a significant reduction in sick leave? Will she look at that part of prisons department management and examine the causes of sick leave and the administration of it, for the obvious benefit of the service as well as that of the taxpayer?
Mrs. Rumbold : It is true, as my hon. Friend said, that sick leave causes pressure in prisons. It is something which we are investigating with prison officers and governors to ascertain what can be done to minimise it.
Independent Television Franchises
5. Mr. Grocott : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is planning any review of the new system of dealing with independent television franchise applications.
Mr. Grocott : Has the Minister not been advised by his officials--he certainly should have been--that it is the near-unanimous view of everyone who cares about broadcasting that the franchise allocation system is a complete and utter farce? Is he aware that one of the most damaging aspects of the system has been the loss of about 2,000 jobs--especially in the regions--and the loss of production facilities and skills, largely to London and the south-east, but, taken as a whole, throughout the industry? Surely the Minister owes it to us to undertake a thorough review of the system, to stop listening to advertisers and the Treasury and to start listening to viewers and programme-makers.
Mr. Lloyd : The proof of the tendering system for licences will be in the results of that process, which we have yet to see. I am encouraged that about 40 excellent
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contestants have entered the ring. The hon. Gentleman's remarks about job losses in some independent television companies that are bidding should be set against the views of those who are responsible for the companies. If the hon. Gentleman spoke to them they would acknowledge that the time had come when it was necessary to run their operations more cost effectively. If the bidding system has helped to that end, that is one of its benefits.Mrs. Currie : Does my hon. Friend agree that it is about time that we put all the television companies, including the BBC, on the same basis? Should not we consider in the next few years getting rid of the paraphernalia of the licensing system, detector vans and people being taken to court, along with all the other nonsenses that have been involved in raising finance for the BBC? Cannot the BBC stand on its own two feet along with all the other television companies?
Mr. Lloyd : My hon. Friend is well ahead of herself. We shall examine the structure of the BBC when the charter comes up for renewal in 1996. I accept, of course, that the way in which the BBC will be financed is a matter of intense debate and interest. If we abolish the licence fee, I do not know what the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) will ask about during Home Office Questions.
Mr. Corbett : Does not the Minister recognise the potential damage to the quality and diversity of programming that the loss of thousands of skilled staff jobs and production facilities in every region is likely to cause under the mad and blind auction system? In the run-up to the new Channel 3, will he respond to a plea from the television companies to reconsider the Treasury take, which, under the levy system, is being unfairly inflated because of a decline in advertising? There are dire warnings about the inflated take jeopardising the ability of the companies to deliver on their programme promises.
Mr. Lloyd : On the contrary, the process of tendering ensures that each contestant company has to show that it has the resources, the management skills and the capacity to produce the programmes that it says will be produced so as to cross the quality threshold. The system underpins what the hon. Gentleman wishes to ensure.
Mr. John Greenway : Is my hon. Friend aware that there is concern within ITV that some franchise applicants are still actively seeking financial backing for their bids and are now free to show the programme proposals of their competitors? Does not that undermine the integrity of the bidding process? Will he confirm again to the House this afternoon that the intention of the legislation was that applicants should have their programme proposals and business plans, soundly backed with finance, already in place when their applications were submitted?
Mr. Lloyd : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Act requires bidders to show that they can carry out what they say they will do. Whether any additional piece of information is acceptable at a later date is entirely a matter for the Independent Television Commission, but I am sure that it will read what my hon. Friend has said about the matter and take note of it.
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Phone Tapping
6. Mr. McFall : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department on how many telephone lines on the same number an interception can be made when he authorises a warrant under the Interception of Communications Act 1985.
Mr. Kenneth Baker : The scope of warrants issued under the Interception of Communications Act 1985 is governed by section 3 of that Act. It does not specify the number of lines on the same telephone number which may be the subject of a warrant.
Mr. McFall : How many phone taps did the Home Secretary authorise last year? Does he agree that a court warrant should be obtained before each phone is tapped? Will he undertake to have a Select Committee consider the issue of phone tapping in general?
Mr. Baker : The figures are announced in the annex to the 1990 report of the Interception Commissioner which was published earlier this year. Some 515 warrants were in force on 31 December 1990 or issued during the course of the year and 68 were issued on the authority of the Secretary of State for Scotland. The Act requires that I issue a warrant only in particular well-defined circumstances and the use of that power is subject to review by the Interception Commissioner, who can look into the circumstances of each individual case. His report is published and is a public document, as this one was, and that is an appropriate and sensible method of regulation.
Shops (Unauthorised Occupation)
7. Mr. Hannam : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has any plans to give local authorities greater powers to deal with unauthorised occupation of high street properties.
Mr. John Patten : The unauthorised occupation of any property is primarily a matter for the owner or lawful occupier of that property. I would be a bit cautious about giving local authorities greater power to deal with other people's property. But shop squatters who break the criminal law can be dealt with. I know that this is a matter of great concern to my hon. Friend.
Mr. Hannam : Is my right hon. Friend aware that the incidence of empty high street shops being occupied by unlawful traders is on the increase and that, as things stand, neither the local authority nor the police can evict them? It takes weeks and months to get hold of the absentee landlord in order to obtain a court action. Should not the Government do as they did with the hippy convoys some time ago and bring those squatters within the criminal law?
Mr. Patten : My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has recently issued guidance about section 39 of the Public Order Act 1986 concerning hippy convoys and others, and that has been widely welcomed. Those who squat in shops, use electricity, trade falsely and perhaps sell without declaring their VAT returns can be prosecuted under the criminal law. I encourage local authorities and owners of vacant property to use the expedited process through the county court which should make it possible to have squatters removed within about seven or eight days.
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Dame Jill Knight : Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is not just in the high streets where protection is needed from squatters? Does he recall the case of my constituent, Dr. Adam Fraise, who has had to spend some £4,000, including paying a large gas bill incurred by the squatters, to get his own home back? Does he agree that that is grossly unjust? My right hon. Friend told me that the Government were considering making unauthorised entry of a person's private home a criminal offence. When will he stop considering it and act?Mr. Patten : I always take very seriously any injunction from my hon. Friend to act, as she knows. I know also how seriously she and my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) view that issue. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department is conducting a review, and he hopes to make an announcement as soon as possible.
Naturalisation
9. Mr. Evennett : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many applications for naturalisation are currently being processed ; and what is the average time taken.
Mr. Peter Lloyd : At 24 June 1991, there were 68,315 applications for citizenship outstanding. The average processing times for those certificates issued in May were 34 months for certificates of naturalisation, and 26 months for certificates of registration.
Mr. Evennett : The delays that my hon. Friend's reply reveal are naturally a matter of considerable distress and disappointment to applicants. When does my hon. Friend expect the process to be speeded up and the backlog to be cleared?
Mr. Lloyd : The process is speeding up, and the average waiting time has started to fall. In April, it was 36 weeks
Mr. Corbett : Thirty six months.
Mr. Lloyd : The hon. Gentleman is right--36 months. I expect the downward trend to continue--until, I hope, it is a matter of weeks. We are seeing the benefit of moving the nationality department to Liverpool, as the Government would like to create employment there. The staff have taken over the work quickly and effectively, and I believe that the waiting time will fall rapidly over the coming months--and weeks.
Mr. Vaz : The Minister might think that it is an amusing problem, but it is disgraceful that the waiting time has escalated. The Minister will know that the Select Committee on Home Affairs published a report last year that described a delay of 27 months as indefensible. The Minister will know also that I have reported him to the parliamentary commissioner over the delays in his Department. Does not the Minister realise that if it was any other Department, he would have been sacked by now? When will the Minister make available the resources necessary to clear the backlog immediately?
Mr. Lloyd : Of course I know that the hon. Gentleman has said those things, because he said them to me several times. I know also that the hon. Gentleman knows very well the reason for the backlog. In 1987, applications
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equivalent to six years' work were received. More than half of them came from applicants who had been in this country since 1973, and who therefore could have registered in any of those 14 years. Although the waiting list is being rapidly reduced, the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that those applying for citizenship are already resident in this country and that there is no doubt of their right to be here--so the inconvenience caused to most of them is small, if real.Policemen
10. Mr. David Evans : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many policemen there were in post in 1979 and in 1990.
Mr. Kenneth Baker : On 31 December 1979, there were 113,309 police officers, which increased to 127,090 on 31 December 1990--a gain during those years of 13,781.
Mr. Evans : Does not my right hon. Friend's reply show that ours is the party of law and order? Is that not in stark contrast to the lot opposite, who would not condemn brutality in the 1984 miners' strike or on the Wapping picket line, or those Labour Members who refuse to pay their community charge? Is it not a fact that the Leader of the Opposition, who once embroiled himself in a fight outside his house, will, after the next general election, land flat on his back--as he did then, in a prickly hedge?
Mr. Baker : I am astonished at my hon. Friend's moderation in contemplating Labour's record. When we came to office in 1979, we found a police force that was undervalued, under strength, under-resourced, and underfunded. During the last 12 years, we have made it our first priority. There has been an increase in expenditure of 50 per cent., in real terms. As the shadow spokesman is not in his place today--[ Hon. Members :-- "Where is he?"] It may be that he is bolstering up the Labour party in Liverpool. Whoever is in charge, perhaps he could get up and tell us how many more police officers Labour would recruit if, by any chance, Labour wins the next election.
Mr. Rees : If the present Home Secretary is so pleased about law and order, will he consider the fact that in 1979 the Conservative manifesto promised that the crime rate would fall, and that it would go on falling, but that it has gone up and up since then?
Mr. Baker : The crime rate would be even higher if we had not given high priority to law and order. Not only have we increased the size of the police force but we have increased the level of sentencing very substantially and we have brought in new crimes-- [Interruption.] Sorry, we have brought in new sentences. We have also brought in heavier sentences for very old crimes. For example, we introduced life sentences for people who are convicted of attempted rape. I can assure the House that if we had not supported the law and the courts in this way, the level of crime would be even higher.
Mr. Colin Shepherd : Does my right hon. Friend agree that in parallel with the very substantial and welcome increase in the number of police officers, there has been a very substantial increase in public confidence in those police officers and their professional ability? Will my right hon. Friend also bear in mind that the thin stretch of police
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--and their apparent invisibility, sometimes, on the beat--is causing concern in both rural and town areas? Will he ask the chief constables to look carefully at their policies, especially with regard to civilianisation, so that we obtain the maximum possible profile of individual policemen in front of the citizens of this country?Mr. Baker : As well as increasing the number of uniformed officers by 13,000, we have increased the civilian force supporting the police by 15,000. We have civilianised many jobs, which means that more uniformed officers, both men and women, are available for policing on the beat and for policing in the community. That is another very important priority, but I am still waiting to hear from the Labour party what its increase would be.
Mr. Sheerman : Apart from introducing new crimes, the Home Secretary has been a member of a Government who have seen astronomic increases in crime rates--up by another 17.6 per cent. this year, announced only last week. Can he estimate how many more duties have been imposed on the police since 1979? Is it not a fact that although there has been a net increase in the number of police, the number of police where the public want them--on the streets, on the beat--has declined? When will the Home Secretary start to back the police of this country and give them the resources that they deserve to fight crime?
Mr. Baker : When we came into office, the police force that we inherited was under strength, under-resourced and undervalued. I was waiting to hear about the Labour party's priority. It has priority for all sorts of expenditure. The Leader of the Opposition is giving priority to education and to pensioners. What priority does he intend to give to the police? His spokesman has just refused to give a pledge to increase the number of police, so the Leader of the Opposition will have the chance to do so later. He may like to give it.
Mr. Patrick Thompson : Does my right hon. Friend agree that however many police men there are in post, they need the admirable support of men and women who are working as special constables and volunteers? Can he announce today that he is planning further measures to support the excellent work that our special constables do?
Mr. Baker : I can give that assurance. There are about 15,000 special constables in the United Kingdom. We are undertaking a recruitment campaign to increase that number to about 25,000. I am glad to say that that campaign is well under way. Many young people, both men and women, are coming forward to serve as specials. Many of them go on to become full-time police officers. They make a very valuable contribution to the policing of our country.
Mr. Maclennan : Against the background of inexorably rising crime, does the Home Secretary really believe that his inane partisan bellowing enhances the reputation of the Government on law and order?
Mr. Baker : The essential element in improving law and order in Britain is to support the forces of law and order : our courts and our police force. We have an impeccable record in that as we have increased expenditure by more than 50 per cent. in real terms and we are committed to increasing it again in the lifetime of the next Government.
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