House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 Jul 1991

Mr. Thorne : It is important to introduce this measure as soon as possible to ensure that the fare-paying public are not left making a substantial contribution to providing free transport facilities for those who are defrauding their fellow passengers. A reduction in the amount of fraud will lead directly to a fall in fares for everyone else. I therefore urge the House to give the Bill a Second Reading. 7.37 pm

Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West) : I listened with rapt attention to the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Thorne). I hope that he will now answer the questions that he was unable to answer earlier. I asked him to provide a run of figures on fare evasion. We need to know

Column 838

when the problem first arose and when it assumed the critical proportions which he now describes and which have brought about the introduction of this Bill.

My hon. Friend the Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen) asked an equally pertinent question. On what basis were the figures that appear in the statement on behalf of the promoters--showing that fare evasion is estimated at £12 million a year on the underground and at £17 million a year on the buses--arrived at? I understand that estimates are made of the amount of money not paid in tax--by a fairly hit-and-miss method--and I should like to know the methodology that London Regional Transport employs to arrive at those figures.

The hon. Gentleman has suggested that they are produced by firms of reliable opinion pollsters. If I had decided to evade paying my fare--the House will understand that the thought would not cross my mind in normal circumstances--and I was asked by someone who clearly did not work for LRT whether I was a valid fare payer, I would be stupid to admit that I was not. It may be that the figures given by the Bill's sponsor understate the case, but if the House is to be persuaded of the need for such legislation, it ought to be provided with an accurate assessment of the level of fare evasion and information on how it was arrived at.

I was intrigued by the hon. Gentleman's claim that ticket machines are available 99.9 per cent. of the time. That sounded like a Stalinist electoral turnout figure. Most of us took such claims with a large pinch of salt and we must do the same in respect of the sponsor's statistics. He scarcely bears any resemblance to Stalin, either in terms of his appearance or his ways, but he attempts to employ Stalin's techniques. The hon. Gentleman may have been telling the absolute truth. If so, I wonder why I am so unlucky so often--because I frequently find myself among those who try to use ticket machines during the 0.1 per cent. of the time when they are not working properly.

Incidentally, I recently attempted to travel on the District line from Upton Park, and when I put money into the ticket machine, I received in my change what appeared to be a 50p coin, but which was in fact a 10p piece that one of my constructive and adept constituents had somehow converted. I understand that that happens a lot. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can say what attempts LRT is making to thwart those who doctor coins to use in ticket machines. I relate that fascinating anecdote to illustrate that even machines that work 99.9 per cent. of the time are not always used by people who are honest 99.9 per cent. of the time.

The hon. Gentleman spoke of the problems of ticket inspection at peak times, particularly on the docklands light railway. My hon. Friend the Member for Leyton asked about ticket inspection on the Central line, which passes through his constituency. We in Newham dream about travelling on the Central line in the style that one can from Leyton. One can well imagine how crowded the trains are by the time that they reach Stratford. When the Central line is working well, it works very well and provides a regular service. However, if trains are cancelled, those remaining in service become very crowded, and that is true on many other London Underground services. It is futile to suggest that inspectors could operate at peak periods. It is difficult enough to breathe on a tube train during the rush hour. For inspectors to squeeze their way through crowded carriages may prove a very exciting experience for some, but it would be a slow operation --

Column 839

and I doubt that an inspector could proceed very far along a carriage. In any event, the furore that such an attempt would create would allow many a fare evader to nip off the train before being asked to produce a ticket.

When we have accurate figures on fare evasion and details of the methodology used to calculate them, we can make a better assessment of the need for the Bill. We ought to ask ourselves if there is a high level of fare evasion, why that is so. London has the highest urban transport fares in the world. I would not mind so much if it also had the most efficient urban transportation system, when such high fares would be commensurate with the benefits. However, anyone who uses LRT's buses or tube trains knows that they are not part of the most efficient urban transportation system in the world. Its shortcomings cannot be blamed on the inefficiency of the staff. I would not want to work on LRT. Every day of the year, irate passengers turn up at bus stops and underground stations to seek out uniformed staff on whom they can expiate their annoyance. It is quite a dangerous job working for LRT, and on behalf of all my right hon. and hon. Friends--including my hon. Friends the Members for Leyton and for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape)--I pay tribute to all LRT's hard-working staff, who are badly served by the Government and their own senior management.

When one realises the lack of capital and revenue investment in LRT in recent years, it is clear why its service is so bad. The Minister for Public Transport, for whom I have a lot of time and who has visited my constituency on many occasions, may argue that the Government recently announced various schemes for large-scale capital investment. That is true, and I pay tribute to him for those improvements, but it took the Government a long time to make them. The Government belatedly realised what an appalling mess they had on their hands, particularly in respect of the level of fare evasion. If they are now punching some money into LRT, it is only because they realise what a big issue the capital's public transport system will be in the coming general election. Nevertheless, past years of neglect have contributed to the service's inefficiency.

That inefficiency is another reason why some people are not inclined to pay their fares. Although I could not possibly condone law-breaking, one can understand people growing so annoyed at the awful service that LRT provides that they become determined not to pay their fares. They almost seem to anticipate the Prime Minister's charter of rights, which will apparently allow us to sue everyone who fails to deliver a proper service. I hope that we will also be able to sue the Government for having delivered a crappy service to the country as a whole, but I will let that pass.

It appears that people are taking the law into their own hands and saying, "If London Regional Transport treats me so badly on a regular basis, why the hell should I pay my fare? If I can get out of this system without putting a penny piece into it, that is exactly what I shall do." When, in the past, Londoners had to pay a levy anyway, they could also say, "I am already making a contribution, so why should I also have to pay inflated fares?" The reasons for fare evasion can sometimes be fairly sophisticated. It is not always a case of someone wanting literally a free ride.

We must give consideration to changing to a flat-fare system, such as operates in most of Europe, whereby travellers could purchase books of tickets at newsagents or

Column 840

kiosks, as they can in Paris. That is the kind of system that the Greater London council tried to pioneer all those years ago. I am sure that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, remember the GLC. It is soon to re-emerge as the Greater London authority--though I hasten to add that it will be not the son of GLC, but a completely new, slimline body, as members of my Front Bench constantly remind everyone. When the GLC ran London's transport system, it thought that a flat-fare system was needed.

Some argue that the best way of defeating fare evasion is to provide a free transport system. That makes a great deal of sense, because the more people one can get to use a public transport system, who therefore do not use their private vehicles on the roads, the better the industry and commerce of a city can operate.

I am convinced that, if one were to go into the social cost of accounting for a genuinely free fare system in London, one would find that it would benefit everyone enormously in economic and social terms. Although I do not expect the Government to go for such a system, I hope that one day when we have a progressive Government, with a Department of Transport led by my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, East, we shall think in terms of having a free fare system.

Mr. Peter Snape (West Bromwich, East) : Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Banks : I give way to my right hon. Friend.

Mr. Snape : I do not need promotion to the Privy Council. If one of the terms of my employment as Secretary of State for Transport were that I should introduce free travel in London, I would regretfully have to decline the post.

Mr. Banks : If travel were free, it would not make any difference whether my hon. Friend declined or accepted. There would be no deprivation.

I thought that my hon. Friend was going to make the valid point that a free fare system would mean the loss of jobs, as the unions have always said it would. However, that should not be so under a good progressive transport policy led by my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, East, for the simple reason that service would be stressed. That is how other modes of transportation are sold. Airlines are sold by virtue of the fact not that everything is done on a shoestring and a prayer, but that there is good service and there are people to look after the passenger when he gets on the plane. Why should there not be people to look after passengers as they get on to a bus or an underground train, whether or not they have paid the fare? I am assuming that we have a wholly free fare system.

Let us move away from that policy, which is for a future Labour Government to implement. Let us concentrate on fare evasion, although we do not accurately know at what level it occurs. Another reason for it is that there are not enough uniformed staff at stations or on buses to ensure that people pay when they travel. The movement towards one-person-operated trains and buses has exacerbated fare evasion.

There is a recession and many people are unemployed. I have already said, and there is no gainsaying it, that we have the most expensive transportation system in the world. It is not surprising that people fall foul of temptation and save themselves 40p or 50p, not because

Column 841

they are natural crooks but because that money can be spent on something else that is just as essential as travelling. I am not condoning that, but I would at least understand the rationale behind it. That problem would not arise if we had low or free fares. Equally, temptation would not arise if there were more staff around because people would feel that, even if they could not afford the monstrously high fares imposed on LRT by the Government's economic policies and imposed on the traveller by the unfeeling management at 55 Broadway, they would have to pay, because if they did not, their collar would be felt.

The Minister for Public Transport (Mr. Roger Freeman) : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Banks : I see that my collar is about to be felt, so I shall give way.

Mr. Freeman : I have been listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman's cogent argument. I am sure that the House would be grateful if he could explain why, if his main concern is the level of fares, he opposes a measure that will allow LRT to recover more revenue and therefore to reduce the average level of fares.

Mr. Banks : That is a good point. If we knew accurately--we are taking it on say-so at the moment--what the level of fare evasion was, the Minister's argument would be enhanced. If the Minister is saying that the recovery of the full amount lost--the £12 million on the underground and the £17 million on the buses--will be directly applied to the reduction of fares, I can see a point for supporting the Bill. I shall be honest with the Minister, as I hope that he is always honest with me, and say that I am not opposed to the Bill. I object to what has been happening with public transport. If we had done this differently, we might not have those problems. We need to examine the reasons for the level of fare evasion, before we deal with it. I am trying to pose a few possible ways to make sure that these problems will not arise in future. I have suggested a low flat fare or a free fare system. I am not opposed to the Bill, but the Minister and the hon. Member for Ilford, South owe the House an explanation why LRT feels that it is necessary to introduce the Bill. We are told that it is because of fare evasion, but why is that so prevalent? We need to explore the reasons.

Mr. Cohen : My hon. Friend is making some excellent points, but will he turn his mind to the Government's attitude to those they call criminals? Do not the Government have a strange attitude in that they regard people who do not pay their fares as wicked criminals, however much money they have in their pocket or have to live on for a week, yet Gerald Ronson, a crook who was in prison, yesterday shook hands with the Queen Mother at the Royal Opera house? He seems to be acceptable in society and to the establishment, but he is a criminal.

Mr. Banks : My hon. Friend points out the hypocrisy that surrounds this issue. Yesterday, I asked the Attorney-General a question about the level of white collar crime and I said that I did not think that the Government took it seriously. I was aghast at the picture of the criminal Gerald Ronson shaking hands with the Queen Mother. Did she know that her hand was being

Column 842

shaken by this dasterdly, evil, wicked, wretched man who had robbed decent, honest people of £5 million? I do not know, but I felt for her. It was scandalous.

Mr. Snape : My hon. Friend may be able to help us by telling us whether Mr. Gerald Ronson had committed another dasterdly crime. Did he pay his fare on the underground on his way to the opera?

Mr. Banks : To judge from Mr. Gerald Ronson's track record, I doubt whether he did, but then I doubt whether he used the underground. He is not the sort of person one bumps into on the Central line with a, "Hello, Gerald, I see that they let you out already." Many of my constituents can be met in such circumstances, but not Mr. Gerald Ronson.

I do not often say this, but my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton has got this slightly wrong. Many of those who go in for fare evasion are not the sort of people I was describing--people at the sharp end of the recession, caught out by the Government's inept and malign economic and social policies. Often, they are fairly affluent. Some people who turn up in court for evading fares are lawyers. That should not surprise any of us, because lawyers are quick to charge and slow to pay. Some well-heeled people practise fare evasion, and most of them probably vote Tory. The offence is not limited to people who cannot afford to pay ; those who can clearly refuse to do so. I am all for such people being dealt with in an exemplary way. The diminution in staffing is one of the most obvious reasons for fare evasion. I regularly travel on the London underground and Network SouthEast and I have a fairly convoluted journey from the House to Forest Gate. When the Jubilee line is extended I shall have a much easier journey because I shall be able to go from Westminster to Stratford and from there to Forest Gate. Often when I arrive at Forest Gate there are no station staff, although it depends on the time at which one travels. All the staff at Forest Gate station are good acquaintances of mine.

There are problems when changing from London Regional Transport to Network SouthEast at stations such as Stratford because of the requirement for people to put their tickets into the machines--the automatic rottweilers, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton described them. There are no such machines at Forest Gate and no staff either. In many ways you are encouraging people to evade fares. I do not mean you personally, Mr. Deputy Speaker. If you turned up as an inspector on the Central line, I would willingly show you my ticket, with some surprise.

If there is no mechanism for checking tickets on the London underground when people move from the underground to British Rail, it is almost encouraging them not to bother with a ticket because no one will ask for it. When they arrive at Forest Gate, there will be no one there anyway. The hon. Member for Ilford, South should tell us whether LRT plans to put more uniformed staff at stations, especially after about 6 o'clock in the evening, because after that time, one is surprised to see British Rail or LRT inspectors at outlying stations.

I am suggesting methods that LRT could use to minimise fare evasion. LRT is guilty of complicity in its own downfall because its policies, which have been encouraged or demanded by the Government, have led to an easy ride for fare evaders, who aggravate the frustration

Column 843

of regular travellers. They are frustrated not just because the service does not operate properly, but because they see people evading fares, which makes them feel like mugs. They say, "Why should I pay my fare for this rotten, lousy service when other people are not paying?"

The Bill is worthy of more critical examination. We should not simply accept it from the hon. Member for Ilford, South on behalf of the promoters that this is the way to solve the problem. As good legislators, we must always ask how the situation arose in the first place, who is responsible for it and how will it be dealt with. Rather than dealing with symptoms, we must deal with causes. When we do that, we address the genuine problem rather than its manifestation, which in this instance is fare evasion.

Earlier, I spoke about service levels. I hate one-person-operated buses, which constitute one of the biggest reasons for fare evasion. I have seen people getting on and off at the exit door. What can the bus driver do about that? Does he stop the bus and walk back to the exit door? Of course not. He or she just drives on because one-person-operated buses already cause enough congestion on London's roads without the driver adding to the problem in that way. I again blame LRT and the Government for their insistence on OPO buses and OPO trains. The same problems do not arise with trains, which is probably why the amount lost on the buses is much higher than the amount lost each year on the underground, even though more people use the underground. The opportunity for fare evasion on the buses is greater because of OPO. When the GLC was responsible for LRT, it warned the Government and LRT about that, but LRT and the Government were determined to have OPO buses.

Travellers do not like OPO buses and the people who travel behind them do not like them either, as anyone who has been stuck behind such a bus in a congested road will testify. The Government are not interested in what the consumer wants, and I do not think that the management of LRT are interested either. If it were, it would not have insisted on OPO buses.

The hon. Member for Ilford, South should explain why fare evasion on buses is so much greater than it is on the underground even though more people use the underground than use the buses. I say that it is because of OPO buses, but if I have got that wrong, I will apologise to the hon. Gentleman and to the Minister. I suspect that, on this occasion at least, I have got it right. London's transportation system is being sold on a low level of service, whereas other transport systems opt for a high level of service. InterCity rightly opts for service. It is expensive, but it is a good way to travel. The airlines go for service for broke and compete on the basis of the service that they provide. No regular air traveller would be happy to climb the stairs of a Jumbo and find that it was one-person operated. He would not like to be welcomed by the captain who would show him to his seat and come round with a hot towel and a barber's shop and say, "I have to go to the front row now because we are about to take off. If you want something to eat during the journey, come along and have a word with me." We know that that is absurd. It is mainly working-class people who use London's buses. If business executives used them, there would be waiters and people summoning passengers to their seats. It is probably apocryphal, but it is well rumoured that, when

Column 844

the right hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) was Secretary of State for Transport, he threw a tantrum on the Central line when he found out that the train did not have a restaurant car. That is the sort of attitude we expect from Ministers, because they are not in touch with reality. They take the view, that since working-class Londoners use buses, one-person operation is suitable, and that if the passengers dodge on and off without paying, what the hell.

On the docklands light railway, the conductors are called captains. I do not know why that term was chosen. We have Captain Soames, although that is probably not a good advertisement for the rank. I was always told that anyone who made only captain in the army was a bit of a failure, but that is another matter. I do not know why the conductors are not called train brigadiers or generals. We could at least do something better for our buses than give the staff fancy names.

My hon. Friend the Member for Leyton spoke about the many people who use the buses. I use them and I am no toff. [Interruption.] Snappy dresser, yes ; toff, no.

The docklands light railway is used by many business people. Notwithstanding that it is a new investment, that is one reason why the service is better. There is a class aspect to the Bill and to the proposals that come from the Government. One-person-operated buses are part of the class-based approach to transportation in London. I know that the Minister would hardly agree with me, but my assertion is held to be self-evident on the Opposition Benches. If we were talking about different people, we would be talking about a different service.

If this evening the Minister were to announce that the Government were prepared to reconsider the use of OPO buses, which are condemned throughout London by those who have to use them and by those in other vehicles who have to queue behind them, he would be able to deal with fare evasion at a stroke. I am sure that OPO buses have led to a great deal of alleged fare evasion. We do not know the exact figures, but it would seem that fare evasion on the buses is greater than that on the underground system.

Flat, reasonable fares are wanted. If we had an efficient LRT service and adequate staffing levels on buses and at stations, fare evasion would dwindle to almost nothing and there would be no need for the Bill. I am prepared to support the Bill, but it is an admission of failure by the Government and by LRT. I deplore the fact that it is in front of us. I hope that the Minister will take to heart some of the lessons that I have outlined.

8.11 pm

The Minister for Public Transport (Mr. Roger Freeman) : It might be helpful to the House if at this stage I briefly set out the Government's attitude to the Bill, a measure which my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Thorne) has described clearly, succinctly and efficiently.

The Government support the Bill, as they have supported London Regional Transport's previous Bills. It is surely right that those who travel on London Transport's services without paying the correct fare should be discouraged from doing so. We have heard that fare evasion is estimated to cost LT about £12 million on the underground system and about £17 million on the buses. I fully accept, as I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South would, that those figures are estimates. How

Column 845

can we know the figures unless the fares are collected? Nevertheless, the estimates are based upon professional advice, and the total sum is about £29 million--call it £30 million--in lost revenue. That is a huge burden, which has to be carried by honest passengers and by taxpayers, who in this financial year will contribute £722 million in grant to the costs of London Transport. London Regional Transport already has powers to operate penalty fares under the London Regional Transport Act 1984, and specifically on the docklands light railway under the London Docklands Railways Acts of 1984, 1985 and 1986. As there was some dissatisfaction with the powers, the Government established a working group on penalty fares in May 1986 to review the principles that should apply to penalty fares schemes on public transport and to look at the existing provisions concerning LT services. The Bill has been closely based on the recommendations of the working group. The Bill benefits also from the considerable scrutiny to which the first LRT penalty fares Bill was subjected in another place.

Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Port Glasgow) : I am extremely grateful to the Minister for showing his characteristic courtesy in allowing me to intervene. As someone who represents a constituency about 420 miles north-north-west of the Piccadilly line, I hesitated before intervening. However, I travel occasionally between Heathrow and Westminster underground station by way of the Piccadilly and District lines. On that basis, I ask the Minister whether he is satisfied that the sanctions that will be introduced by way of the Bill will not lead in any way to an increase in instances of assaults upon members of London Regional Transport.

Mr. Freeman : The hon. Gentleman's constituents, as United Kingdom taxpayers, have an interest in the Bill, because they are subsidising through grant each year the operations of LRT. Therefore, his constituents have a direct interest in ensuring that revenue is maximised.

I should like to reflect on what the hon. Gentleman said and write subsequently. I can tell him, however, that British Rail has powers similar to those that are sought by means of the Bill, and they are using them with the Secretary of State's agreement on the London to Tilbury and Southend service. The evidence that is so far available to me--I shall check it again--is that about 90 per cent. of fare evasion has been eliminated on that service. I am not aware of any evidence of assaults on British Transport police or assaults or acts of violence involving other passengers. I shall check the figures and write to the hon. Gentleman.

The House will know that other Bills with penalty fare provisions have been approved by Parliament and received Royal Assent. I have in mind what was the British Rail (Penalty Fares) Bill and also what were Bills from the South Yorkshire passenger transport executive in respect of the South Yorkshire supertram and from the West Midlands passenger transport executive in respect of the Midland Metro. The House will rightly be concerned to ensure that the principles of a fair and reasonable penalty system are properly reflected in the Bill that is before it and that honest passengers are fully protected. The promoters will respond to specific comments that are made about the Bill this evening. There will be an

Column 846

opportunity for further consideration in Committee. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South has already said, there is a very important aspect of the penalty fares system which the House should keep in mind, and I ask it to do so. An activating order issued by the Secretary of State for Transport will be required to bring the powers in the Bill into effect, and I must stress that no activating order will be issued unless the scheme that is proposed is fair and workable. It will be for London Transport to convince us of that.

Before any activating order is made, we shall wish to ensure that all the necessary arrangements are in place to operate the scheme and to protect honest passengers from being penalised if no opportunity to buy a ticket has been provided. The Secretary of State will also need to be satisfied that there are adequate publicity arrangements to inform passengers about the rules, and that procedures for disputes and appeals are in place. I understand that some concerns have been expressed by the Transport Users Consultative Committee about how the trial scheme has worked on the London to Tilbury and Southend service, and I shall be interested to read its comments. I understand that, while there are no major problems, the association has suggestions that it claims would enable the operation to be carried out more smoothly.

In addition, the Secretary of State will need to be assured that satisfactory arrangements exist for staffing ticket offices and for monitoring and repairing ticket machines. It will be necessary that he be assured also that ticket inspectors are properly trained to operate the scheme, that they are deployed appropriately and that they have proper identification. One of the great advantages of the scheme--I think that the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) will agree with this --is that, on the

London-Tilbury-Southend line, British Rail and British Transport police have deployed staff on the trains and at the intermediate stations between the two termini. Rather than have staff standing at ticket gates, and therefore having nothing to do between trains, more staff have been deployed where the passengers are. That is good for safety and for reducing fare evasion.

As I have said, the experience gained from the pilot scheme on British Rail will be taken into account. It would be a curious situation, and one that would be difficult to justify to passengers and to taxpayers, if this latest penalty fares Bill from London Regional Transport were to be blocked when Parliament has approved similar provisions for other operators. Tomorrow, with the hon. Member for Vauxall (Ms. Hoey), I shall be visiting the underground stations of Stockwell and Oval in her constituency. I venture to suggest that, if I were to ask a random sample of tube passengers whether they supported the principle of the Bill, I would find that an overwhelming majority were prepared to do so. Honest passengers are not prepared to pay for the fare dodger, and I hope the House will support the Bill tonight.

8.18 pm

Mr. Peter Snape (West Bromwich, East) : I too will be brief. The Opposition have traditionally cast a jaundiced eye on penalty fare Bills, particularly those which first came before us five or six years ago. Since then, there have been some signs that British Rail and London Underground management have been more prepared to listen to the views of hon. Members and the trade unions

Column 847

representing those who are responsible for collecting fares. At least in this Bill passengers travelling without a ticket have up to 21 days to pay the penalty. That is an important move away from the original concept when no ticket meant an on-the-spot fine, which, understandably, led to concerns among those responsible for ticket collection and examination that the sort of situation outlined by my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) might arise.

At various times in my railway career, I have collected tickets, and it is not the easiest of jobs on a Saturday night. I listend with interest to my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) who entertained us in his customary manner, as he is wont to do. A couple of late Saturday stints at various suburban stations might make him slightly less idealistic --if I can put it that way--about the motivation of some of those who travel on public transport without a ticket.

However, I agree with what my hon. Friend said about the somewhat cavalier attitude to fare collection by the management of London Buses and London Underground in recent years. I feel strongly that, all too often, when these Bills have been introduced, the burden of collecting fares has been placed on either the lowest-paid within the railway industry or those hon. Members who take an interest in these matters.

Dr. Godman : In my observations to the Minister, I failed to say that the tube sevice between Heathrow and Westminster is a disgrace, especially for visitors to the United Kingdom. In his examination of the problem of fare evasion, has my hon. Friend seen any comparative evidence from other systems? I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Rutherglen (Mr. McAvoy) will agree that there is little fare evasion on the Glasgow subway system. As my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape) knows, the Glasgow subway system is tiny compared with the London system. It could be put in one corner of the circle line. Nevertheless, there is little or no fare evasion in Glasgow. That may be due to the innate honesty of the Glasgow traveller.

Mr. Snape : That innate honesty is renowned worldwide. I am interested to hear my hon. Friend's experience on the Glasgow underground. It was a Glasgow underground railwayman who once passed on to me the best excuse that he had ever heard for fare evasion. As my hon. Friend will be aware, the Glasgow underground is a small version of the Circle line. When asked why he was travelling with a three-day old ticket, an astute railway passenger claimed that he was waiting to get to the terminus--an excuse that did not go down too well with those responsible for collecting the fare. However, that was before the days of penalty fares.

Mr. Tony Banks rose--

Mr. Snape : My hon. Friend is about to entertain us once more, so, with your permission, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall allow him to do just that.

Mr. Banks : It is sweet of my hon. Friend to say such a nice thing about me. I am glad that my hon. Friend reminded us of his distinguished former career as a ticket collector. I understand that he was a world famous ticket collector ; a veritable Pavarotti of ticket collectors. But he is wrong to assume that I do not know the problems of

Column 848

travelling late on Saturday coming back in a carriage full of vomit and empty beer cans, with various yobbos hanging around.

Mr. Snape : My hon. Friend is a Chelsea supporter.

Mr. Banks : My hon. Friend is right to point out that I am a Chelsea supporter, but that is almost a way of life in my area of east London. I have almost come to love it. Swimming through vomit is another skill that I have acquired during my years in this House. However, the presence of more uniformed officers, British Transport police and underground staff on those trains at that time of night is surely the best way of ensuring that we all travel safely and vomit-free.

Mr. Snape : I think that we would all agree with that. I was merely trying to point out that, both as a booking clerk and as a railway guard-- two jobs which, despite what my hon. Friend said, I held with complete lack of distinction throughout my long and undistinguished railway career--I was probably more apt to come into contact with the sort of undesirable characters that my hon. Friend mentioned than I would have been had I been the assistant general secretary of the Association of Broadcasting and Allied Staffs, which I think was one of my hon. Friend's more distinguished earlier occupations. Before I was so politely interrupted, I was talking about the cavalier attitude of London Underground and London Buses management to fare collection. My hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North- West mentioned the difficulties of the one-person operation of buses. There is no doubt that the fact that Britain's transport systems, particularly those in London, have fallen into the hands of accountants rather than operators has led to the sort of decline in service about which he and other hon. Members frequently complain. The ability to balance budgets, although it is not practised by London Underground management in particular at present, appears to be of far more value and importance when it comes to installing people in top jobs than the ability to properly run a transport system. Twice before during debates on the Bill--I said that London Underground has tried to introduce a similar Bill--hon. Members have regaled us with stories about how difficult it is to purchase a ticket or to hand it in at the completion of a journey when travelling on London Underground late at night. That made me inquire from staff at the sharp end why that should be so. The view among many of those responsible for that job is that the current management of London Underground would rather leave stations unstaffed and ticket barriers wide open than pay the premium payments for the overtime necessary to staff the stations adequately.

We are being asked to pass this legislation without hearing from the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Thorne), who represents the promoters, exactly what London Underground is prepared to do to see that adequate staff are provided. He said that, where people transfer from British Rail to London Underground, providing that a board was exhibited saying that it was impossible to purchase a ticket and so on at the commencement of the journey, the penalty fare would not be payable. But that overlooks the reality of late night travel. If there are any staff at all on stations, whether on British Rail or London Underground, it is usually a small

Column 849

number, and if they are called away for any other purpose in connection with their duties and responsibilities, there is often no opportunity to purchase a ticket. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that, in those circumstances with no board exhibited, the passengers--the customers, as we are laughably known as these days--are still liable to the penalty payment? If so, Opposition Members will be extremely concerned.

We heard from the hon. Gentleman about the efficiency of London Underground and its new ticket machines, but by all accounts they are not efficient enough to take 50p pieces, and about £250,000--one of the rough estimates given in these circumstances--has already been lost as a result of the passion for such machines. The more adroit non-payers in our society have been clever enough to work out that a coin of another denomination and a piece of silver paper does the job at least as well as, if not better than, the authentic Bank of England 50p piece.

Mr. Tony Banks : My hon. Friend has raised an important point. Clearly, anyone who boards a train without a ticket at an unstaffed station which, however, contains ticket machines will be deemed to be liable for the penalty : he will be told that he should have used one of the machines. What if the machines are not working?

At Forest Gate station, I recently tried desperately to feed a pound note into one of the machines, which simply refused to accept it. I was not prepared to stand there all day feeding a pound note into the machine, which the machine would then return ; after all, my train was about to arrive.

Although the ticket was valid, had I got on the train without a ticket I would presumably have been liable for the penalty. What I should like to know--my hon. Friend may not be able to enlighten me, but perhaps he will redirect my question to those who can--is whether the inspectors will accept the fact that a machine was not working as a reason for travelling without a ticket. The fact that 99.9 per cent. of the machines may work will not help the person who happens to have encountered the 0.1 per cent.

Mr. Snape : If my hon. Friend really tried to purchase a ticket with a pound note, I am not surprised that he experienced some difficulty. As far as I am aware, pound notes are no longer legal tender.

Dr. Godman : Except Scottish pound notes.

Mr. Banks : Well, a five-pound note, then.

Mr. Snape : My hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) is beginning to confuse his denominations.

Mr. Banks : Obviously I meant a five-pound note. Inflation had left me breathless. It should have been a one-pound note, but it was a five- pound note.

Mr. Snape : I hope that the Accountant is not listening, and will pay my hon. Friend's salary in the equivalent currency at the end of this month.

Although I would not for a moment cast doubt on the scenario outlined so graphically by my hon. Friend, another scenario strikes me as likely to occur rather more often. The ticket machines of which the hon. Member for Ilford, South spoke in such glowing terms frequently bear

Column 850

the legend "Exact money only". Not long ago, at Euston, eight out of nine or 10 machines bore that legend, and only one appeared to be working. Would declining the opportunity to wait for 15 minutes in a growing queue--including, perhaps, my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-West, waving a pound note--be considered a valid reason for failing to purchase a ticket, and for subsequently refusing to pay the penalty? All too often, a touching faith is displayed in those machines ; given the standard of their performance, that faith is generally not merited.

Mr. Cohen : Earlier, my hon. Friend raised a good point about staffing levels on the underground, especially late at night. Could not this be yet another instance of the inadequacy of the fare evasion figures? Much of the evasion probably takes place late at night in unstaffed stations. Unless a good many inspectors are introduced in such stations, violence will increase at such times. London Regional Transport has not thought out the Bill properly : there could be a massive surge of violence.

Mr. Snape : I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North- West is not sure how the statistics--£12 million a year on the underground and £17 million a year on the buses--were arrived at ; I am not sure either, and I do not think anyone else is. By its very nature, quantifying fare evasion is an inexact science. Perhaps the hon. Member for Ilford, South can exercise his customary diligence and thoroughness to give us the answer, and tell us whether my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen) is right about the times at which the bulk of fare evasion takes place.

In my view, the Bill is much better than it was. Clause 8 of the statement on behalf of the promoters not only states that the Bill "has the support of the Department of Transport",

but adds the welcome phrase :

"there has been consultation with the Unions representing those who would have to implement the penalty fares scheme ; further discussions will be held if the Bill is enacted."

That is certainly an advance. No such promise was made in respect of earlier Bills, which led to understandable expressions of concern and outrage on the part of those responsible for collecting penalty fares--or, at least, for cautioning the passenger-customer who travels without a ticket.

I hope that the hon. Member for Ilford, South will be able to answer some of our questions. If he cannot do so tonight, I trust that he will ensure that many of the justifiable fears expressed by Opposition Members are answered properly in Committee.

8.35 pm

Mr. Harry Cohen (Leyton) : Some interesting points have been raised, especially by my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks). He made some perceptive remarks--not least that he is a snappy dresser, although he also made it clear that the Bill was a case of the emperor's new clothes. It cannot be justified in any way that will stand up to interrogation.

My hon. Friend also went into the psychology of fare evasion. Of course no hon. Member supports such behaviour, but my hon. Friend contrasted it effectively with the naive simplicity of London Regional Transport that lies behind the Bill. As he pointed out, the level of fare

Next Section

Home Page