House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 Jul 1991

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House of Commons

Tuesday 9 July 1991

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]

PRIVATE BUSINESS

North Yorkshire County Council Bill

[Lords] Read the Third time, and passed, with amendments.

British Railways

(No. 3) Bill-- [Lords]

Motion made,

That the Promoters of the British Railways (No. 3) Bill [Lords] shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office of their intention to suspend further proceedings not later than the day before the close of the present Session and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid ; That if the Bill is brought from the Lords in the next Session, the Agents for the Bill shall deposit in the Private Bill Office a declaration signed by them stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill which was brought from the Lords in the present Session ;

That as soon as a certificate by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office, that such a declaration has been so deposited, has been laid upon the Table of the House, the Bill shall be deemed to have been read the first and shall be ordered to be read a second time ; That the Petitions against the Bill presented in the present Session which stand referred to the Committee on the Bill shall stand referred to the Committee on the Bill in the next Session ; That no Petitioners shall be heard before the Committee on the Bill, unless their Petition has been presented within the time limited within the present Session or deposited pursuant to paragraph (b) of Standing Order 126 relating to Private Business ;

That, in relation to the Bill, Standing Order 127 relating to Private Business shall have effect as if the words under Standing Order 126 (Reference to committee of petitions against Bill)' were omitted ;

That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session ;

That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.-- [The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

(Hon. Members :) Object.

British Railways Bill

Motion made,

That the Promoters of the British Railways Bill shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office not later than the day before the close of the present Session of their intention to suspend further proceedings and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid ;

That on the fifth day on which the House sits in the next Session the Bill shall be presented to the House ;

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That there shall be deposited with the Bill a declaration signed by the Agents for the Bill, stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill at the last stage of its proceedings in this House in the present Session ;

That the Bill shall be laid upon the Table of the House by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office on the next meeting of the House after the day on which the Bill has been presented and, when so laid, shall be read the first and second time (and shall be recorded in the Journal of this House as having been so read) and, having been amended by the Committee in the present Session, shall be ordered to lie upon the Table ;

That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session ;

That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.-- [The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Hon. Members : Object.

Mersey Docks and Harbour Bill [Lords]

Ordered,

That the Promoters of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Bill [Lords] shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office no later than the day before the close of the present Session of their intention to suspend further proceedings and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid ;

Ordered,

That, if that Bill is brought from the Lords in the next Session, the Agents for the Bill shall deposit in the Private Bill Office a declaration signed by them stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill which was brought from the Lords in the present Session ;

Ordered,

That, as soon as a certificate by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office, that such a declaration has been so deposited, has been laid upon the Table of the House, the Bill shall be read the first and second time and committed (and shall be recorded in the Journal of this House as having been so read and committed) ;

Ordered,

That the Petitions relating to the Bill presented in the present Session which stand referred to the Committee on the Bill shall stand referred to the Committee on the Bill in the next Session ; Ordered,

That no Petitioners shall be heard before the Committee on the Bill, unless their Petition has been presented within the time limited within the present Session or deposited pursuant to paragraph (b) of Standing Order 126 relating to Private Business ;

Ordered,

That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session ;

Ordered,

That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.-- [The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.

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Oral Answers to Questions

EMPLOYMENT

EC Social Action Programme

1. Mr. Conway : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what assessment has been made of the cost to British employers of immediate implementation of all provisions of the European Commission's social action programme.

The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Michael Howard) : It is not possible to estimate the cost of implementation of all the social action programme as only half the proposals have so far been published. However, it is estimated that the implementation of the directives on working time, part-time work and pregnant women would alone cost United Kingdom employers at least £3.5 billion.

Mr. Conway : I am sure that the House would wish to join me in congratulating my right hon. and learned Friend on his 50th birthday which he celebrated on Sunday. He is wearing considerably better than many of us. While my right hon. and learned Friend is reflecting on that milestone in his life and on future policy, will he tell us whether under these proposals nearly 2 million of our low-paid citizens would be forced to pay national insurance contributions? Would not that be a retrograde step and is it not surprising that Labour would support such a policy?

Mr. Howard : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind wishes. One might have thought it surprising for Labour to support a measure that would place such a burden on those on low pay, but nothing about Labour's attitude to those on low incomes or low pay any longer surprises me. Later today we shall debate some of Labour's proposals which would wreak havoc on those on low incomes and low pay, and would lead to the destruction of hundreds of thousands of jobs.

Mr. Harry Ewing : Is the Secretary of State aware that many men in my constituency who are celebrating their 50th birthday are not anywhere near being in the same happy circumstances as the right hon. and learned Gentleman because his policies have put many of them out of jobs? Is he further aware that of all the post-war holders of his office he has the worst record on unemployment? Did that fact help him to celebrate his 50th birthday?

Mr. Howard : The original question is about the social action programme. The hon. Gentleman should appreciate that that programme, which is fully supported by his party, would add to the ranks of the unemployed. If the hon. Gentleman is seriously concerned about the plight of the unemployed, which I am sure he is, as am I, he should start persuading his right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench to stop pursuing policies which would gratuitously make unemployment worse.

Mr. Irvine : Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that the European Commission has introduced the social action programme under the provisions of article 100A with a view to making it possible for the programme to be enacted by a qualified majority only?

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Does he agree that article 100A is not the appropriate article? What steps is he taking to challenge the European Commission on that point?

Mr. Howard : Not all the proposals in the social action programme are being brought forward under article 100A, but my hon. Friend is right to say that some are, and they are being introduced on the most tenuous basis. I make it quite clear in the Social Affairs Council of Ministers that that is the case. If necessary, at the end of the day we shall not hesitate to take these matters to the European Court of Justice.

Mr. Tony Lloyd : Is the Secretary of State aware that the only figure that he has quoted today that has any credibility is that of his 50th birthday, and even that we shall check? Is he aware also that, as with the minimum wage, the figures that he has quoted about the cost of the social action programme are completely bogus? Why is it that the Government stand alone within the Community in setting their face steadfastly against any progress being made for employees at their places of work? Why are they so determined to undermine the conditions of Britons only? Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman realise that the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) is no longer Prime Minister?

Mr. Howard : The hon. Gentleman is entirely wrong. It never ceases to amaze me that the Labour party clings to such myths. Why does not the hon. Gentleman try to ascertain what really happens at the Council of Ministers, including what happened at its last meeting? We were not isolated. We were not alone. Other member states are finding it increasingly difficult to sign up for directives. They are becoming increasingly aware of the problems that will be posed for them. They are frequently grateful to the United Kingdom Government for the constructive role that we consistently play in the Council's deliberations.

Executive Job Clubs

2. Mr. Colvin : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what further measures he will take to increase the number of executive job clubs ; and if he will make a statement.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Robert Jackson) : On 19 June my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Employment announced a further 40,000 places this year in job clubs. My right hon. and learned Friend has asked the Employment Service to take the needs of unemployed white-collar workers and executives into account when it puts this extra provision into effect.

Mr. Colvin : That is, indeed, good news. The evidence from the Southampton executive job club, which serves my constituency, is that it is doing well. Perhaps my hon. Friend will tell us a little more about the national picture. How many people will be able to enrol in job clubs and how many have done so? What is the percentage of placements back in employment? Has the Department undertaken any research to judge the cost- effectiveness of executive job clubs compared with Professional and Executive Recruitment, PER, which they replaced?

Mr. Jackson : My hon. Friend is right about the success of the Southampton executive job club. There was a 68 per

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cent. positive outcome in that job club during 1990-91. Overall, there are more than 1,000 job clubs with 156,000 people making use of them. Of those who have gone through the clubs, 16 per cent. have gone into professional and managerial jobs. There are 30 executive clubs throughout the country and they are proving to be extremely successful. We shall, obviously, monitor the progress of the clubs. We are conducting research to see how and in what way we should expand the provision. As I have said, the clubs seem to have been extremely successful.

Mr. Madden : What emergency action is the Department of Employment taking to give advice and help to the staff of BICC, the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, who face redundancy and great uncertainty about their future? What other help and advice is being given to safeguard the employment of those employed by small businesses who are dependent on the bank?

Mr. Jackson : The hon. Gentleman seems to have his initials wrong. Obviously, it is extremely serious when something takes place of the sort to which he has referred. He is right to draw attention to the full range of facilities that are operated by the Employment Service, which can help many people who find themselves in difficulties with employment. The hon. Gentleman's advice, that they should make use of the service, should be taken.

Mr. Burns : Will my hon. Friend join me in welcoming the fact that a new job club is shortly to be opened in Chelmsford? Does he agree-- [Interruption.] --that job clubs have an extremely good record on successfully helping people back into jobs?

Mr. Jackson : I congratulate my hon. Friend on his positive attitude to job clubs. I noticed that it attracted some derision from Opposition Members. They should reflect on the considerable help that has been given to people through job clubs. Before they laugh and sneer at the clubs, they should consider the serious contribution that job clubs are making.

Terms and Conditions of Employment

3. Mr. Jack Thompson : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will introduce legislation to ensure that all employees have a right to a written statement of terms and conditions within 13 weeks of commencement of employment.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Eric Forth) : Employees already have such a right under current employmenprotection legislation.

Mr. Thompson : Is the Minister aware that citizens advice bureaux throughout Britain have evidence that not only are employers ignoring the requirement to give a written statement of terms and conditions, but some are deliberately not meeting that requirement? Is it not time for those who are employed for 16 hours a week also to have such a written statement?

Mr. Forth : If, as the hon. Gentleman alleges, there is widespread breaching of the requirement, employees should go to industrial tribunals which are well equipped to deal with such problems. I hope that citizens advice bureaux are giving the correct advice in that regard. The

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hon. Gentleman may be aware that there is an EC directive covering that point which, regrettably, has not yet been passed because the European Parliament could not give an opinion. However, it is almost certain that that directive will become EC law in the foreseeable future. It will make certain changes, including the one that the hon. Gentleman suggested.

Mr. Knapman : Is my hon. Friend aware that 151 Members of the House are sponsored by trade unions? Does that make them delegates rather than representatives and are they entitled to a written contract of employment?

Mr. Forth : My hon. Friend makes an interesting point which I shall consider and take due account of.

Mr. Skinner : But what about the 250 Tory Members of Parliament who are lining their pockets with directorships, 62 of whom are Lloyd's names and wanted to be bailed out by the taxpayer? What about their terms and conditions? At the next general election the Tories had better set up a training agency to search for jobs for all those Tory Members who will lose their seats, because they will need one.

Mr. Forth : I am impressed with the hon. Gentleman's care and concern for the categories of people whom he has just mentioned. Any people who find themselves in difficult circumstances should go to him because, obviously, he is anxious to help them.

Training (Young People)

4. Mr. Brandon-Bravo : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many Government training places for young people were available in (a) 1978-79 and (b) the last year for which he has figures.

Mr. Jackson : In 1978-79 there were on average about 7,000 young people receiving training in the youth opportunities programme compared with more than 300,000 now in youth training.

Mr. Brandon-Bravo : Those figures clearly show a real commitment to training. Does my hon. Friend recall that when we first gave young people a guarantee that at 16 they could have a job, a place in higher education or a place on a training scheme, the Opposition wanted young people to continue to have the option of voluntary idleness? Will my hon. Friend confirm that the Opposition and the trade unions have consistently blocked every move that the Government have ever made to provide for our young people? Will he further confirm that they have never given the kind of guarantees or brought forward the initiatives that have come from the Government Front Bench?

Mr. Jackson : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We saw an exhibition of that in the Opposition's sneering during an answer to a question about job clubs a few minutes ago. The Government have substantially increased expenditure on youth training, with positive results. Of those who complete youth training, 89 per cent. go into jobs, further education or further training, and 67 per cent. of them obtain vocational qualifications. It is time to stop knocking youth training and it would be useful if the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) took

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this opportunity to condemn yesterday's vote at the Transport and General Workers Union to boycott youth training.

Mr. Leighton : Does the Under-Secretary of State realise that he loses all credibility when he sounds so complacent? Does he realise that yesterday the British Printing Industries Federation pulled out of youth training and that two clearing banks and many large companies, such as Mothercare, have pulled out? There is now a crisis in youth training. As I told the Minister two months ago, hundreds of young people are leaving school in the London borough of Newham and the east end of London without jobs and without youth training places. As everyone, including the local training and enterprise councils, says, we need more cash now. What will the Under-Secretary of State do about it?

Mr. Jackson : Everyone agrees that the local character of the training and enterprise councils is one of their great strengths, but clearly that constitutes some problems for training providers that are organised on a national basis, of which there are some 140. That is why the Department installed the training national providers unit which has been helping to broker the relations between the national providers and the TECs. Only 5 per cent. of the national providers, 10 out of 140, have failed to establish a new relationship with the TECs, but they are all continuing with their training. We regret losing them, but the benefits that come from the localisation of the TECs are considerable.

Mr. Harris : I welcome those figures, which show that there has been truly spectacular progress. Does my hon. Friend accept, however, that a problem is beginning to develop? Some young people are unable to obtain training, simply because they cannot find placements. The problem is especially bad in my constituency, St. Ives in west Cornwall, where young people cannot find employers to give them training. Will my hon. Friend consult the TECs about that problem, which, I fear, will worsen over the next few months?

Mr. Jackson : My hon. Friend is right, as, indeed, was the hon. Member for Newham, North-East (Mr. Leighton). We are firmly committed to the YT guarantee, although we do not yet know how many school leavers there will be or how many people will enter the programme. Placements will, obviously, be affected by the current economic situation. We are, however, keeping the position under review and we are already in contact with the TECs.

Mr. Fatchett : Was not the Under-Secretary of State's response to my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-East (Mr. Leighton) remarkably complacent? When large organisations, such as the British Printing Industries Federation, the Midland bank and Mothercare, are pulling out of YT schemes, should not the Government do more than simply express concern, as the hon. Gentleman did? He washed his hands of the problem. Is it not time for action and for the Under-Secretary of State to recognise the difficulties to which those employers have drawn attention? Does he appreciate that it is impossible for them to negotiate with the 82 TECs? Or is he happy to allow YT to wither on the vine as a result of the cuts that have already been made in the budget?

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Mr. Jackson : That was quite a routine. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to accuse anyone of complacency, he should take account of the complacency that he is exhibiting in the face of yesterday's vote by the Transport and General Workers Union, and of his failure to take the opportunity that I offered him to dissociate himself from it. The Government are now spending £844 million on youth training. In 1979, when Labour was last in power, it spent £7.4 million. Labour Members are in no position to lecture us.

Mr. Marland : Does my hon. Friend agree that the reason for the small number of training places that were available in the late 1970s was because industry had been subjected to so many years of Labour Government? The Government of those days sought to support restrictive practices, to restrict prices and interfere with company management. Does my hon. Friend agree that the worst news on earth for any trainee would be news of the return of a Labour Government?

Mr. Jackson : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Indeed, the position was even worse than he suggested : the Labour Government paid no attention whatever to the need for youth training.

Employment Action Programme

5. Mr. Foulkes : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what is his estimate of the number of places available per parliamentary constituency through his employment action programme.

Mr. Howard : Training and enterprise councils and local enterprise companies in Scotland will shortly be invited to submit proposals to deliver employment action in their local areas. As parliamentary constituency boundaries and TEC and LEC boundaries are not the same, it will not be possible to say what the distribution of employment action places will be within parliamentary constituencies.

Mr. Foulkes : I thought that the Secretary of State would shy away from answering my question. Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that in my constituency and, indeed, throughout the country many projects exist that could benefit from an employment action programme? Many more places are needed, however, and those involved in the programme need to be paid the rate for the job, instead of being used as slave labour.

Mr. Howard : The hon. Gentleman may care to reflect on the utter inconsistency of the two points that he has made. If the scheme were introduced with those involved being paid the rate for the job, it would be possible to provide roughly one third of the number of places that we shall provide next year.

Sir Michael Marshall : Will my right hon. and learned Friend take this opportunity to support the moves being made through the programme to combat agism? Does he agree that, given the current demographic changes, it is important to look for opportunities to employ the over-50s, as well as to carry out the necessary work for the youth training scheme?

Mr. Howard : I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. Jobcentres and the Employment Service generally are playing a full part in countering the difficulties that those

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who are over 50 experience in finding jobs. I now have a personal interest in that matter. The private sector is becoming increasingly aware of the importance of its role and it is taking its responsibilities increasingly seriously.

Mr. McLeish : Why is it that, when faced with 965,000 people unemployed for over 26 weeks, the Government can find in this financial year 30,000 places only? Why is it, when faced with a bill for £16.4 billion to support the unemployed, the Government can provide only £110 million to get the unemployed back to work? Is the Secretary of State happy with that or will he continue to be the apologist for poverty pay in Britain?

Mr. Howard : The hon. Gentleman knows, or should know, full well that in this financial year we will provide through our various programmes help for an additional 190,000 people, over and above the 650,000 we are already helping. Next year we shall help a quarter of a million people in addition to those 650,000 whom we would be helping anyway--that is a total of 900,000 people. We will not take any lectures on the funding of these programmes from the Labour party when we know that none of these matters comes within the two immediate spending priorities that are the only things to which the shadow Chief Secretary will commit herself and her party.

EC Employment Directives

6. Mr. Simon Coombs : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement on the progress of negotiations over the EC's draft directives on employment.

Mr. Howard : Steady progress is being made on certain aspects of the European Commission's social action programme, particularly in the areas of health and safety, and free movement of workers. However, many member states continue to have major difficulties with the substance and proposed legal base of other proposals, notably in the area of employee rights.

Mr. Coombs : Can my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that there is a growing awareness among the Governments of the European Community member states that the implications of several of the draft directives, including those on working time and part-time work, need to be studied extremely carefully before any approval can be given? Does he think it strange that the only part of Europe where there appears to be a continuing willingness to sign up to anything and everything is the Opposition Front Bench?

Mr. Howard : My hon. Friend is entirely right, but, of course, what he describes is entirely typical of the Labour party's blind attitude to such matters. It is significant that neither of the draft directives that my hon. Friend mentioned was even discussed at the last meeting of the Social Affairs Council.

Mrs. Mahon : Will the Secretary of State confirm that no EC directive on employment contains a clause that would allow the sacking of a nurse or doctor who spoke up for a patient rather than in support of management cuts? Will he now take the opportunity to condemn the sacking of Graham Pink, a nurse who spoke out for patient care rather than for cuts in hospital services?

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Mr. Howard : I am afraid that I am not familiar with the facts and circumstances of that particular case. It is only a person as irresponsible as someone sitting on the Labour Benches who would expect anyone to comment on the circumstances of a particular case without having full knowledge of them. It was a Conservative Government who first introduced the right for workers to take a complaint for unfair dismissal to an industrial tribunal, so we shall not take any lectures from the Labour party on that matter either.

Mr. Bevan : Can my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that the social action programme could threaten 100,000 jobs in this country?

Mr. Howard : I fear that my hon. Friend's estimate is a considerable underestimate. The damage that the social action programme would do to employment would be much graver than my hon. Friend suggests, but, of course, that matter is regarded as of no consequence by the employment vandals on the Labour Benches.

EC Unemployment

7. Mr. Arbuthnot : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what is the average rate of unemployment in the EC ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Jackson : Using the latest available internationally comparable unemployment rates, the average rate of unemployment in the European Community was 8.7 per cent. in May 1991.

Mr. Arbuthnot : Will my hon. Friend confirm that the only large European Community countries that have a statutory national minimum wage, which the Labour party seems to want, are France and Spain, which both have higher unemployment than us?

Mr. Jackson : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is part of the evidence of the job destruction effects of a minimum wage policy. The only people who doubt those effects are Opposition spokesmen, who display an attitude of blithe unconcern about the obvious consequence of the policy that they are following. Unemployment in Britain is below the EC average.

Mr. James Lamond : Is not it remarkable that after 12 years of Tory Administration the economy of this great prosperous industrial nation is so fragile that, on the Government's admission, it cannot sustain the basic human right of a minimum wage?

Mr. Jackson : I hear what the hon. Gentleman says. Perhaps he might like to reflect on the implications of a 15.4 per cent. unemployment rate in Spain.

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