House of Commons Hansard Debates for 15 Jul 1991

Mr. Douglas : Will the Minister exercise some care in examining the internal market within Britain? Would he care to comment on the progress that has been made on the interconnector between Scotland and England? That would facilitate the use of Scottish energy generated from coal and other means in England.

Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : I cannot comment on specific proposals, because my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State may be required to authorise such developments in due course. It is a sign of the developing market in electricity in the United Kingdom that trade from one part of the United Kingdom to another is an increasing possibility.

Photovoltaic Electricity

13. Mr. Page : To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what is his estimate of the potential for photovoltaic electricity generation in the United Kingdom.

Mr. Moynihan : I have recently reviewed the scope for photovoltaic electricity generation in the United Kingdom and concluded that there is a significant opportunity for photovoltaic power to contribute to United Kingdom

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energy needs in certain applications. For that reason I recently announced a new research programme into the technology.

Mr. Page : I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. It is obvious that that form of energy production has considerable usage not only for stand- alone purposes, but as an environmentally clean form of energy. So that we can get a handle on the size of the power that could be generated, can my hon. Friend tell the House and the nation what volumes of energy in gigawatts could be produced by that form of electricity generation into the early years of the next century?

Mr. Moynihan : I assume that my hon. Friend is including consumer products--it is estimated that 170 GW hours could be produced by the year 2025.

Nuclear Power Stations

14. Mr. Alan W. Williams : To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will make a further statement on the decommissioning of nuclear power stations.

Mr. Wakeham : Decommissioning is a matter for nuclear power station operators to consider within the guidelines on safety and environmental protection set by the Health and Safety Executive's nuclear installations inspectorate and Her Majesty's inspectorate of pollution.

Mr. Williams : In its proposals for "deferred dry store", is it right that Nuclear Electric should consider postponing the decommissioning of nuclear power stations by 30 years, which would leave the problem to future generations to tackle? Is not the idea of simply "mounding over" spent nuclear power stations to create massive nuclear tombs environmentally irresponsible? Does the Minister agree that Nuclear Electric's proposals amount to an admission of defeat, because it simply does not know how to dismantle nuclear power stations and is terrified of the cost?

Mr. Wakeham : I do not accept that. When considering

decommissioning it is important to ensure the continued safety of the workers, the public and the environment. That will be ensured by continued control by the regulators. Nuclear Electric's proposals demonstrate its commitment to seeking the most cost-effective strategy, which takes account of safety and environmental concerns.

Mr. Ian Bruce : Will my right hon. Friend reflect that, when those nuclear power stations, particularly the Magnox power stations, were first built, it was intended--it was Government policy--that the sites should be mounded in that way? Does he agree that to do anything other than that would be a total waste of what will probably become taxpayers' rather than private operators' money?

Mr. Wakeham : I always listen to my hon. Friend with considerable care when he is talking about such matters. However, the nuclear installations inspectorate is considering those proposals and it would not be right for me to comment further.

Mr. Barron : When the Government privatised the electricity supply industry they agreed that a levy of 10.6 per cent. would be added to people's electricity bills to pay

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for the difference between the cost of expensive nuclear power and fossil fuel. That levy has now increased to 11 per cent. Given that, at that stage, it was meant to cover the total decommissioning of power stations over 100 years and that the nuclear industry now talks about decommissioning over 130 years, why has there been no decrease in electricity bills?

Mr. Wakeham : The levy was set for the first five years on a declining basis. It has gone up from 10.6 to 11 per cent. because of estimated differences in the take off. However, I confirm that there is still a trend downwards over the eight years.

British Coal (Output)

15. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will make a statement about the change in output per man shift in British Coal since 1984.

Mr. Wakeham : In 1983-84, British Coal's putput per manshift was 2.43 tonnes. Figures just received for the year to 29 June 1991 indicate that this has more than doubled to 4.87 tonnes.

Mr. Marshall : Does my hon. Friend agree that those magnificent figures underline the great benefits to the country from winning the coal strike in 1984-85? Does he also agree that they underline the potential for the speedy privatisation of that industry?

Mr. Wakeham : I agree with my hon. Friend. the improvements in productivity have been remarkable, and they must continue if the industry is to have a long-term, competitive base. I remind my hon. Friend that since 1979 the Government have approved more than £7 billion of new investments and grant aid of about £17 billion, including provision of more than £6 billion in deficiency grants under last year's Coal Industry Act. Improvements in productivity, financial support and long-term contracts with the generators are all part of the improvements to the coal industry.

Mr. Eadie : Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that those output figures in a publicly controlled industry far surpass the productivity rate in, for example, Germany, which has a privatised coal industry? Although the right hon. Gentleman said that he had high hopes that the coal industry would win contracts from the power companies, is he aware that a statement was made this weekend to the effect that the power companies are reluctant to give long-term contracts? Indeed, they are still hell bent on importing 50 per cent. of their coal.

Mr. Wakeham : I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not falling into the same trap as some of his colleagues who, whenever a discouraging statement is made by the electricity generators in the run up to a renegotiation, treat it as the gospel truth according to St. Neil. The renegotiation for the coal industry is extremely important and the generators will take into account all the factors to which I have referred many times from the Dispatch Box. They include security of supply and questions of exchange rate risks. It is not a question of contract based purely on price and British Coal has a great deal to offer in those contracts.

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Electricity Disconnections

Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : In the year ending 31 March 1976, disconnections for domestic electricity debt in England and Wales totalled 125,000. In the year to 31 March 1986, they had dropped to 102,000. In the year to 31 March 1991, they had fallen to 51,637--the lowest recorded level.

Mr. Carrington : Does my hon. Friend agree that that significant drop in disconnections demonstrates the success of the privatised electricity companies in looking after customers who can, temporarily, least afford to pay their bills? Does my hon. Friend agree that the privatised electricity companies should be congratulated on their efforts to assist people who get into financial trouble? Will he encourage those companies to continue that policy in future?

Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : Yes, Sir. The fact remains that, under Labour, more than twice as many people were having their supplies cut off because of electricity debts. That shows that the privatisation programme that we have pushed through is good for the customer, particularly low-income households that would otherwise be disconnected. I can confirm that, under the codes of practice agreed between the newly privatised companies and the regulator, the figures should drop even further.

DUCHY OF LANCASTER

Duchy Visit

31. Mr. Hayward : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he next intends to visit the county palatine.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Chris Patten) : I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I have no plans to visit the county palatine in the near future.

Mr. Hayward : When my right hon. Friend next goes to the county palatine, will he visit Blackburn? When he does so, will he go via Newham and Marlow, where the Conservatives recently took seats off the Labour party, Clwyd where last week the Labour party was denied control of the county council, and so arrive at Blackburn, where the Conservatives also recently took a seat off the Labour party? Are not those results a clear sign that the public at large are seeing through Labour party proposals, particularly on issues such as defence--today, the Government announced an invitation to tender for a fourth Trident nuclear submarine.

Mr. Patten : I am sure that one reason that we have done so well in recent local government by-elections is because the public do not trust the Labour party on either the economy or defence. I am equally sure that people in Barrow will have been delighted by today's announcement that we are going ahead with building the fourth Trident which is essential to the credibility of our deterrent. The public will know that the Labour party is opposed to the building of that Trident vessel and will be interested to

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know what Labour's overall defence policy is. I am sure that the public can look forward to an intensely interesting discussion at the Labour party conference.

Mr. Grocott : Can the Minister confirm that, in view of his disastrous record since taking up his present job, he must be pretty nervous about visiting the north-west or anywhere else, when part of the reason for his visit is to manage a Tory party by-election campaign? May I ask him the following question termed in his own colourful language : which of the two results in the north-west left him feeling the most gobsmacked-- the Tory party's performance in Ribble Valley, where it lost a safe Tory seat, or its performance in the Walton division of Liverpool, where its candidate lost his deposit?

Mr. Patten : I think that the television coverage of events in Liverpool reminded people throughout the country that, as the Labour party could not run Liverpool, it certainly would not be able to run Britain. The result in Walton reminded us that extremism in the Labour party, which we were told years ago had been wiped out, is still rife. I look forward to securing the same 10.9 per cent. swing in our favour as we achieved in Blackburn the other day.

32. Mr. Simon Coombs : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he next intends to visit the Duchy on official business.

Mr. Chris Patten : I refer my hon. Friend to the answer that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Coombs : May I urge my right hon. Friend to consider an early visit to the Duchy to tell his tenants about the disastrous consequences of a national minimum wage policy? Is it not extraordinary that there was no mention whatever of that policy by the Leader of the Opposition on his recent visit to Blackpool to the Transport and General Workers Union conference?

Mr. Patten : As I understand it, before the Leader of the Opposition went to Blackpool his office was telling people that in his speech he would make strong references to a national minimum wage because he was so proud of Labour's policy on that. In the event he kept mum, and one can only draw one's own conclusions.

Parliamentary Questions

33. Mr. Winnick : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how many parliamentary questions he has answered since he last answered questions orally in the House.

Mr. Chris Patten : Five, Sir.

Mr. Winnick : That must have kept the right hon. Gentleman pretty busy. Although the Tory vote in Walton was the lowest Tory percentage vote this century--a new record--is it not of some consolation to the right hon. Gentleman that at least the Tory candidate in that by-election got a few more votes than Lord Sutch?

Mr. Patten : It was a great comfort to us that all Conservative Members who were asked supported the Conservative candidate in Walton. I understand that that was not the case for the Opposition.

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PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION

National Audit Office

39. Mr. Dickens : To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission what representations he has received regarding the sufficiency of the National Audit Office's funding to ensure adequate coverage of all Government Departments.

Sir Peter Hordern (on behalf of the Public Accounts Commission) : In considering the adequacy of funding for the National Audit office, the Public Accounts Commission takes into account the proposals of the Comptroller and Auditor General as set out in the National Audit Office corporate plan, together with the views of the Public Accounts Committee and the Treasury. The Commission has received no other representations.

Mr. Dickens : I am obliged to my hon. Friend for that answer. Will he confirm that the quality of audits is beyond dispute and that they are absolutely first class? Nowadays shoppers and everybody else seek value for money. Is my hon. Friend satisfied that sufficient value-for-money audits take place? Are people getting value for money from Government Departments, and is my hon. Friend satisfied that they have sufficient audits?

Sir Peter Hordern : I agree with my hon. Friend that value for money from Government Departments is at least as important for Government Departments as it is for the consumer. I am happy to tell him that there were 43 value-for-money exercises last year and 47 this year, and that there will be 50 next year and each year thereafter. The House can be grateful to the Comptroller and Auditor General, his staff and other firms for the time and experience that they devote to value-for-money exercises in Government Departments.

Mr. Franks : Will my right hon. Friend inquire of the Audit Commission whether it has recently investigated the activities of a well- known firm of local bookmakers in Cumbria called Barrow city council? This organisation

Mr. Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman must ask questions relating to the Public Accounts Commission.

Mr. Franks : I am asking my hon. Friend to inquire of the Audit Commission about this firm of bookmakers which has managed--

Mr. Speaker : Order. Questions must relate to the Public Accounts Commission.

Mr. Franks : Surely the Public Accounts Commission has an interest in this firm of bookmakers which over the past three years has managed to blow £4.5 million, including recently £1.2 million on the Bank of Credit and Commerce International. Perhaps that firm of bookmakers did not realise that a horse which was doped in the United States should not be running in local races in Cumbria.

Sir Peter Horden : I have to tell my hon. Friend, with some disappointment, that the Public Accounts Commission has no authority over the Audit Commission, which looks after local government. We are responsible for

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the National Audit Office. Much as I think that the Public Accounts Commission would like to look at a firm of bookmakers, that does not come within its ambit.

Mr. Butler : Does the National Audit Office have enough money to look into the premature closure of the nuclear structure facility at Daresbury, which seems to involve a scandalous waste of taxpayers' money?

Sir Peter Horden : I have not heard about this one, but I shall draw the attention of the Comptroller and Audit General to it, and write to my hon. Friend.

DUCHY OF LANCASTER

Duchy Business

34. Mr. Cohen : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what proportion of his time he spent on official Duchy business in the last month.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Chris Patten) : I spend up to a quarter of my time carrying out my duties as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. Thanks to the hon. Gentleman getting in with his question, the percentage has increased slightly.

Mr. Cohen : As part of those duties, the Chancellor must be getting lots of representations about saving the regiment in his area. What about the regiments that run our hospitals and schools, work on our buses and trains and manufacture our goods and products? Has not the Conservative party shown that it is incapable of saving those regiments? Even without the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) at the helm, are not the Conservatives still a monstrous regiment?

Mr. Patten : I hope that that is the end of regimental metaphors for the time being. I have had none of the representations that the hon. Gentleman suggests I have, although I have had some representations that the country should be saved from Labour's defence policy, whatever that may be.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

Telephone Directory

41. Dr. Goodson-Wickes : To ask the Lord President of the Council when the design and lay-out of the Palace of Westminster telephone directory was last revised for the benefit of its users.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. John MacGregor) : The present design and layout of the Palace of Westminster telephone directory have not changed substantially for a number of years, but the format and content are reviewed and modified on each occasion it is published.

Dr. Goodson-Wickes : I hope that my right hon. Friend does not feel that this is a trivial matter, because I know that I am not alone in finding the document physically unwieldy and appallingly indexed and laid out, to the extent that many colleagues telephone the operator rather than wade through it. Is this not a ridiculous state of affairs? Will my right hon. Friend initiate a redesign of the document, preferably by a user?

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Mr. MacGregor : My hon. Friend may have ideas of his own and I shall ask the Serjeant at Arms to consult him about the improvements that he may wish to suggest for future editions.

Mr. Dykes : On the design and layout of the European destination envelopes, will my right hon. Friend confirm that they are commencing today, that supplies are available and that they are properly designed?

Mr. Speaker : Order. The question is about telephone directories.

Palace of Westminster (Access)

42. Mr. Simon Coombs : To ask the Lord President of the Council what plans he has to extend public access to the Palace during recesses.

Mr. MacGregor : I have no plans to extend the present arrangements that enable parties of visitors sponsored by Members of both Houses to tour the Line of Route during recesses.

Mr. Coombs : Will my right hon. Friend give some consideration to the fact that the Palace of Westminster is a most attractive proposition for all tourists who come to London during the summer? Will he consider the implications of making access to the Palace during the summer recess available on a commercial basis so that some of the costs of the upkeep of the Palace can be defrayed by the substantial income that would be received?

Mr. MacGregor : My hon. Friend will know that there are security implications about general access. Any decision to reopen the Line of Route to the general public, other than under the arrangements that we have at present, would have security implications that would need to be considered by the relevant Committees of both Houses before being put to the three authorities responsible for Westminster Hall. Succesive Administrations have accepted that the costs of upkeep of the Palace should be a charge on public funds. I understand the Accommodation and Administration Sub- Committee, when it last looked at the proposal that my hon. Friend made, rejected it. However, I accept that it could look at the suggestion again.

Mr. Corbyn : When the recess comes, will the Leader of the House spend some time finding out why so little has been done to improve access to the building for those with disabilities, particularly those in wheelchairs or using crutches and those with sight difficulities? Will he also look at the lack of Braille editions of the guides and other literature available for visitors? Does he accept that, until we can give people with disabilities full access to this building, we cannot say this is truly a public place, as it ought to be?

Mr. MacGregor : A number of improvements have recently been agreed by the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee. It is proposed that a comprehensive study should be carried out to identify other practicable and acceptable proposals for further access for the disabled.

Sir John Stokes : Before my right hon. Friend considers making further proposals for access to the Palace of

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Westminster, will he find time to consider the standard of dress of visitors who are now coming in here? Recently some of them have appeared to be practically naked.

Mr. MacGregor : I assume that my hon. Friend is not referring to hon. Members in this place. I do not know what proposals he has in mind. If there are any particular matters that he wishes to raise, I shall be happy to consider them.

Natural Heritage (Scotland) Bill

44. Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Lord President of the Council how many hours were spent on each of Second Reading, Committee stage, Third Reading, and consideration of Lords amendments of the Natural Heritage (Scotland) Bill.

Mr. MacGregor : The time spent on each stage of the House of Commons consideration of the Natural Heritage (Scotland) Bill [ Lords ] was as follows : Second Reading, six hours and three minutes ; Standing Committee, 19 hours and 43 minutes ; Report, four hours and 50 minutes ; Third Reading, one hour and 23 minutes, and consideration of a Lords amendment to a Commons amendment and Lords amendments in lieu of Commons amendments, four hours and six minutes.

Mr. Dalyell : And what squandering of parliamentary time it proved to be after a group of self-interested peers had inserted an amendment into the Bill that changed its very nature at the 11th hour and 59th minute. Does not the Leader of the House feel just a tinge of shame that he could not even get the hon. Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) to vote for it and that Sir Fred Holliday, who was appointed by the Government during April of this year--a man whom the right hon. Gentleman must have known when he was Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and Secretary of State for Education and Science--resigned on a point of principle? What has happened is appalling.

Mr. MacGregor : I do not accept that the Lords amendment changed the very nature of the Bill as it was introduced on Second Reading.

Air Conditioning

45. Mr. Butler : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he has any plans to improve the air conditioning system of the House.

Mr. MacGregor : I have no plans to make any immediate improvements.

Mr. Butler : I have to report to my right hon. Friend that there is great stuffiness in Commons Court, especially for the new boys who do not have a window. I have had to buy an auxiliary unit. Can my right hon. Friend offer any comfort?

Mr. MacGregor : I am aware of the problem that arose recently for my hon. Friend and for other hon. Members on both sides of the House in what is known as the Tea Room block, where my hon. Friend's office lies. The compressor is in a hermetically sealed unit and so there are access problems. A new compressor was installed last year and it failed in early June of this year. The specialist firm

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failed to meet the timetable for manufacturing a replacement unit. I am glad to say that the equipment is now working again.

Premium Rate Telephone Services

48. Mr. Flynn : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make it his policy to bar House of Commons telephones from connections to premium rate services.

Mr. MacGregor : Access to premium rate telephone services will be barred for the duration of the summer recess, and the issue will be considered again by the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee when the House returns.

Mr. Flynn : Does the Leader of the House think that much will be achieved by barring the services during the summer recess? Will he give us a guarantee that like most Government Departments that already have a bar on these services, the bar will continue when we return? Surely it is right that the House shows its disapproval of the majority of the services, which are extremely damaging and run by soft pornographers.

Mr. MacGregor : In view of the hon. Gentleman's request, I thought that he would welcome the fact that the chairman of the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee has decided to bar access to the services during the summer recess. It is a matter for the Committee to reconsider and then to take a full decision.

Victoria Tower

49. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Lord President of the Council when he expects the cleaning of Victoria Tower to be completed ; at what cost ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. MacGregor : In 1994, at an estimated cost of £7.5 million.

Mr. Greenway : Will my right hon. Friend confirm that some years ago we could have had Victoria Tower cleaned for £3 million? It is sad that the cleaning will now cost £7.5 million. Will he ensure that when it is cleaned, the Union Jack that flies proudly on top of the Tower is always a clean one. Sometimes we have a dirty flag.

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Mr. MacGregor : On my hon. Friend's second point, I shall ensure that his request is noted. On the first point, of course the cost has increased, partly because the scope of the work has changed and partly because of noise problems. However, it is a major undertaking : for example, the scaffolding weighs more than 700 tonnes, the bars measure about 70 miles and the piling had to go down 21 m. It is a major undertaking and by far the largest phase of the project of cleaning the Palace.

Mr. Grocott : Do not the towers of this building represent some of the last few unused wasted spaces? I refer in particular to the tower above the Central Lobby which would be an ideal location for a central control room for television cameras. Now that cameras are an integral part of our democracy, should not the location for television crews and for the House's own facilities be somewhere central within the Palace of Westminster?

Mr. MacGregor : That question goes wider than the cleaning of the Victoria Tower, but, as the hon. Gentleman knows, the issue was discussed by a Committee on which we both served and it will come before the Services Committee this week. Speed and cost must be considered in relation to whether that part of the Palace should be used for the central control room for the broadcasting of the House, as he knows, but I agree that it is right to make full use of every available space in the Palace.

Mr. Jopling : Does the Leader of the House realise that the restoration of Victoria Tower will mark the completion of the fundamental and far-reaching changes instigated by the late Sir Robin Cooke, many of which have been hugely to the advantage of hon. Members, of those who work here and those who merely pass by? Does he accept that the changes are comparable to the work done by Harcourt which has been commemorated by part of the Palace being named after him? Does not the Leader of the House think that it would be appropriate for the work of Sir Robin Cooke to be given similar recognition?

Mr. MacGregor : I agree that the outside and the inside of the Palace have been vastly improved and I think that the improvements are widely welcomed by all hon. Members and by those outside. I also agree that the work of the late Sir Robin Cooke deserves the highest praise for the improvements that it has achieved and which we all enjoy. I shall bear in mind the point that my right hon. Friend made in the last part of his question.

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