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Points of Order

3.32 pm

Mr. Martin O'Neill (Clackmannan) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A press conference is taking place at the moment to amplify an answer to Question 98 on today's Order Paper. It concerns the relocation or redistribution of responsibilities within naval bases in this country. It is of particular interest to Scottish Members and to Members in the south- west. The matter is sufficiently important to require the presence at the press conference of the Secretary of State for Defence and the Secretary of State for Scotland. They have already declined to come to the House to advise hon. Members of what is being said at the press conference. Do you consider that they should be required to come to the Dispatch Box to explain their actions?

Mr. Speaker : The whole House knows that I deprecate press conferences given in amplification of answers to questions. If I had had that knowledge before midday, I might have taken a different view when making my decision on this matter.

Mr. O'Neill : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Following up your helpful remarks, would you instruct the Leader of the House, who has answered questions today, to require his colleagues to come to the House? This is not a matter of party advantage. We do not know what the outcome of the question will be. The House is entitled to know and to have the same access to Ministers which members of the press have.

Mr. Bill Walker (Tayside, North) rose--

Mr. Speaker : Order. I am dealing with a point of order already. The question was to me. I have no authority today to do what the hon. Member for Clackmannan (Mr. O'Neill) asks, but I will look sympathetically at the matter tomorrow.

Mr. Bill Walker : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. If you examine today's Order Paper, you will see that the question is in my name. That will not surprise anyone because I have been campaigning in Scotland about the importance of the Scottish input in the defence infrastructure of the United Kingdom. It is quite proper that I, among others, should take an interest in having the question answered.

Mr. Speaker : That was not the thrust of the point of order. It is perfectly in order to answer a written question. The purpose of the hon. Member for Clackmannan was to seek my view about a press conference being given to amplify the answer. I have made my views clear.

Mr. Tom Clarke (Monklands, West) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I draw to your attention the fact that in the Scottish Grand Committee this morning, which did not finish until 1 pm, the Secretary of State for Scotland was pressed precisely on this issue and refused to give a reply? Does that not show contempt for the Scottish Grand Committee as well as for the House?

Mr. Speaker : I must ask the hon. Gentleman to repeat his last comment ; I am afraid that I did not hear it.

Mr. Clarke : Several times this morning in the Scottish Grand Committee the Secretary of State for Scotland was

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asked a precise question. He refused to reply. He refused even to say whether a press conference would take place, although the Committee sitting finished as recently as 1 o'clock today. Does that not display contempt both for the Scottish Grand Committee and for the House?

Mr. Speaker : I do not know whether the Secretary of State had heard about the press conference ; I certainly have not.

Mr. Ian Bruce (South Dorset) : Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will know that in the last year or so hon. Members on both sides of the House have attempted to get an answer about naval bases. I understand from members of the press, who seem to have been told at about 12 o'clock today, that all the naval bases are mentioned. I wonder whether you, Mr. Speaker, have any power to ensure that an early statement is made to the House so that we can question Ministers. I understand that the news is good ; Ministers may have felt that they had to come to the House only if the news was bad. We could offer them our congratulations--or, at least, we could find out where we are.

Several Hon. Members rose--

Mr. Speaker : Order. Allow me to deal with this matter first. The whole House knows my view that, if press conferences are to be held, a statement should first be made in the House. I feel strongly about that, and I have already made my views plain. I cannot do anything about the matter today, but I may seek to do so tomorrow.

Mr. Dick Douglas (Dunfermline, West) : Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will recall that I raised this very point with the Leader of the House during business questions on Thursday. The right hon. Gentleman suggested that matters would be delayed--in effect, until the return of the House in October. I have no complaint about the use of written questions, but I have complained--and I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to take my complaint on board--that when hon. Members, assiduous in their duties, timeously ask during business questions what is likely to happen, it shows gross disrespect to the House if the Leader of the House does not exercise his

responsibilities to the House as a whole and ensure that Ministers give us the information rather than giving it to the press. I am not being wise after the event. I raised the question on Thursday. We need a strict undertaking from you, Mr. Speaker, that you will use your good offices on behalf of the House to speak to the Leader of the House, who has responsibilities to the House.

Mr. Speaker : I cannot say any more than I have said. I have already made it plain that tomorrow I shall look sympathetically upon any requests made to me.

Mr. Donald Dewar (Glasgow, Garscadden) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am sorry to prolong the points of order, but it is important to draw to your attention the fact that there were exchanges with the Secretary of State for Scotland on the subject during the Scottish Grand Committee this morning--they were most unrewarding in terms of information given. I should also draw to your attention the fact that I have just received a copy of a letter delivered today to the convener of Fife region from Vice Admiral Sir Hugo White, the flag officer, Scotland and Northern Ireland, which says :

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"I am therefore writing to let you know that the Secretary of State for Defence will today announce a proposal to reduce progressively the base's capability"--

that is, Rosyth base--

"and that it will eventually support only minor war vessels. The base infrastructure will therefore be subject to a planned rundown related to the dates to be agreed for the changes to Type 42 Destroyer base ports. This will sadly but inevitably lead to significant job losses and the prospect of accompanying redundancies."

That information is being bandied about and supplied to people outside the House, which makes it doubly important that the House should be informed. We must be given the chance to hear the information today and to cross- question Ministers about what it means and why so many competing stories are being put about concerning the future of the base.

Mr. Speaker : I cannot say more than I have already said about it. If the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman thinks that the matter is so urgent that we must have a statement today, I remind him that that can be achieved only through the usual channels. I share the hon. Gentleman's view that the equivalent of press conferences should be given to the House by the Secretary of State, and not to outside bodies before us. If the Minister does not make a statement tomorrow, I shall look sympathetically on a private notice question.

Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. These are vital matters of national security and public defence. I understand that there is a possibility that, when President Gorbachev comes here, he will be accompanied by members of the KGB. In view of the recent evidence of KGB-type activities in the people's republic of Liverpool, where political dissidents have been subjected to clandestine photography and worse, if any statement is to be made, would it be possible to establish that these witch hunts are purely part of the digestive system of the Labour party and have nothing to do with the old guard in the entourage of President Gorbachev?

Mr. Menzies Campbell (Fife, North-East) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In the light of what you have heard and the way in which you have responded to it, will you entertain the moving of a motion under Standing Order 20 so that the matter can now be properly debated on the Floor of the House?

Mr. Speaker : Not today.

Mr. Alan Williams (Swansea, West) : Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. We all understand that you have repeatedly said that you deplore such situations and, equally, that you have no power to force Ministers to come before the House and make a statement, but may I ask you, Sir, to bear in mind the fact that you have powers that could influence Ministers' thinking very strongly? Ministers might well feel that a PNQ alone is an easier option than a full statement. But if you said now that you would consider sympathetically not just an application for a PNQ but an application under Standing Order 20 for an emergency debate the following day, it might have an effect on the Minister's disposition to come here tomorrow.

Mr. Speaker : That is hypothetical at the moment.

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Mr. Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) : Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. We hear a great deal about parliamentary sovereignty and about how you are here to protect hon. Members. We fully accept that you are not responsible for Government business. However, we had the Leader of the House here a few moments ago, and he has now left. Would it not be appropriate to have some discussion behind the Chair that resulted in a statement being made on this matter at 7 o'clock tonight?

Mr. Speaker : I have already made my views about that clear. The hon. Gentleman is merely repeating what I have just said.

Several Hon. Members rose--

Mr. Speaker : Order. I remind hon. Members that we have a heavy day ahead of us on the Finance Bill.

Mr. Dewar : Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am sorry to prolong the points of order, but this is a matter of importance. Opposition Members are naturally reluctant to let the matter drift away without any firm understanding of what will happen. It seems to me that there is a firm view--which I think will be shared by Conservative Members with defence interests--that there should be a statement today, particularly in view of the letter that I read to the House from the flag officer. Would it not be possible to get some indication now--I know that the Leader of the House is not here--from a responsible Minister that there will be a statement later today, perhaps most conveniently at 7 o'clock?

Mr. Speaker : That would certainly be a possibility, but, as I have already said, it is a matter for the usual channels and not for me. I cannot force the issue.

Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West) : Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) told the House that he had for a long time expressed a close interest in the developing plans for the rationalisation of the Royal Navy support infrastructure. No one would dispute that, Sir, but the hon. Gentleman happened to table last night the question that has been used as the reason for the press conference.

I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to look at the Order Paper. Questions 94, 95, 96, 97 and 98 were all tabled before 10.30 pm yesterday. All of them were tabled by Conservative Back Benchers and all of them call for statements from Ministers. I understand, Sir, that this is perhaps more appropriately a matter for the Procedure Committee, but it would greatly assist those of us on the Procedure Committee, and all those interested in good order, if you expressed your opinion about clearly planted questions being tabled the previous night, thus making it very difficult for Opposition Members to put in their four penn'orth.

Mr. Speaker : The hon. Gentleman is a member of the Procedure Committee and he can do that himself.

Mr. Brian Wilson (Cunninghame, North) : Further to the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke), may I say that I had to be in Scotland this morning. At the same time that the Scottish Grand Committee meeting was held in this House, the news was broadcast at 12 o'clock in Scotland that the Government had confirmed, not the factual situation about Rosyth, but what we now know is a

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version of events. We are dealing not simply with contempt of the Scottish Grand Committee or contempt of the House, but with news management in order to present what by any standards is a partisan account of events to mislead the House and the public. There must be a statement at 7 o'clock to clarify matters.

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will know that in order to run this show there has to be a careful balance between yourself, the usual channels and the House as a whole. It has been obvious for some time that the Government are trying to upset that balance by the use of planted questions, not only at Prime Minister's Question Time, which has been commented upon in most of the newspapers lately, but also in questions to the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food a fortnight ago, who planted a question with a Conservative Member from Lancashire about the state of dioxin in milk in my constituency and nowhere else in Britain. We have seen a further usurpation of that balance today. There are occasions when Mr. Speaker must restore the balance Far from just deprecating what is happening, it would make a great deal of sense today if the Speaker of the House of Commons made it clear to that bunch on the Treasury Bench that they should get someone to the Dispatch Box later today. You could say that, and it would help to restore the balance.

Mr. Speaker : I have already said it.

Mr. Bill Walker : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. As it is obvious from questions put to you that I am under attack, I must stress that my interest in the matter arose primarily because we knew that we would be debating in the Scottish Grand Committee this morning the Scottish economy and employment prospects in Fife, which are tied up with the naval base and its future. Therefore, I deemed it prudent to approach my colleagues in the Ministry of Defence to see whether I could have an early response to my many requests about the decision on the future of the Royal Navy support, and they gladly agreed that that should be done today.

Several Hon. Members rose --

Mr. Speaker : Order. Time was when Ministers always made statements to the House before they made them outside. I hope that we can get back to that practice. This Chamber is the forum of the nation. This is where statements should always first be made, not to those outside.

Mr. James Wallace (Orkney and Shetland) : You have made your views perfectly clear, Mr. Speaker, and you have dropped the broadest of hints. In order that there may be some time for mature reflection on what you have said, I beg to move, That strangers do withdraw. Notice being taken that strangers were present, Mr. Speaker,-- pursuant to Standing Order No. 143 (Withdrawal of strangers from House), put the Question, That strangers do withdraw :--

The House divided : Ayes 23, Noes 235.

Division No. 212] [3.47 pm

AYES

Alton, David

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)

Beggs, Roy

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

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Carr, Michael

Cartwright, John

Douglas, Dick

Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)

Fearn, Ronald

Howells, Geraint

Johnston, Sir Russell

Kennedy, Charles

Maclennan, Robert

Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute)

Molyneaux, Rt Hon James

Salmond, Alex

Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

Steel, Rt Hon Sir David

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Trimble, David

Wigley, Dafydd

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mr. James Wallace and

Mr. Andrew Welsh.

NOES

Adley, Robert

Alison, Rt Hon Michael

Allason, Rupert

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Ashby, David

Aspinwall, Jack

Atkinson, David

Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

Batiste, Spencer

Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

Bevan, David Gilroy

Blackburn, Dr John G.

Body, Sir Richard

Boscawen, Hon Robert

Boswell, Tim

Bottomley, Peter

Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

Bowis, John

Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes

Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard

Brazier, Julian

Bright, Graham

Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

Browne, John (Winchester)

Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)

Buck, Sir Antony

Budgen, Nicholas

Burns, Simon

Burt, Alistair

Butler, Chris

Butterfill, John

Campbell-Savours, D. N.

Canavan, Dennis

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Carrington, Matthew

Cash, William

Channon, Rt Hon Paul

Chope, Christopher

Clark, Rt Hon Alan (Plymouth)

Clark, Rt Hon Sir William

Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Cormack, Patrick

Cox, Tom

Cryer, Bob

Currie, Mrs Edwina

Curry, David

Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Day, Stephen

Devlin, Tim

Dickens, Geoffrey

Dicks, Terry

Dixon, Don

Dorrell, Stephen

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Dover, Den

Dunn, Bob

Durant, Sir Anthony

Eggar, Tim

Emery, Sir Peter

Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)

Evennett, David

Farr, Sir John

Favell, Tony

Fenner, Dame Peggy

Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey

Fookes, Dame Janet

Forth, Eric

Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman

Franks, Cecil

Freeman, Roger

Fry, Peter

Gale, Roger

Gardiner, Sir George

Gill, Christopher

Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

Glyn, Dr Sir Alan

Godman, Dr Norman A.

Goodhart, Sir Philip

Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

Gorst, John

Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW)

Greenway, John (Ryedale)

Gregory, Conal

Griffiths, Sir Eldon (Bury St E')

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

Grist, Ian

Grylls, Michael

Hague, William

Hanley, Jeremy

Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr')

Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

Harris, David

Haselhurst, Alan

Hawkins, Christopher

Hayes, Jerry

Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney

Heath, Rt Hon Edward

Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)

Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

Hill, James

Hind, Kenneth

Home Robertson, John

Hood, Jimmy

Hordern, Sir Peter

Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)

Irvine, Michael

Jack, Michael

Jessel, Toby

Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

Jones, Robert B (Herts W)

Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

Kilfedder, James

King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

Kirkhope, Timothy

Knapman, Roger

Knight, Greg (Derby North)

Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

Lamond, James

Latham, Michael

Lawrence, Ivan

Lee, John (Pendle)

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