| Home Page |
Column 333
House of Commons
Wednesday 17 July 1991
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
London Underground (Safety Measures) Bill
[Lords] (By Order) Order for Third Reading read.
To be read the Third time tomorrow.
Llanelli Borough Council (Burry Port Harbour) Bill
[Lords] Ordered,
That the Promoters of the Llanelli Borough Council (Burry Port Harbour) Bill [Lords] shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office of their intention to suspend further proceedings not later than the day before the close of the present Session and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid ;
Ordered,
That, if the Bill is brought from the Lords in the next Session, the Agents for the Bill shall deposit in the Private Bill Office a declaration signed by them stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill which was brought from the Lords in the present Session ;
Ordered,
That, as soon as a certificate by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office, that such a declaration has been so deposited, has been laid upon the Table of the House, the Bill shall be deemed to have been read the first and shall be ordered to be read a second time ; Ordered,
That the Petitions against the Bill presented in the present Session which stand referred to the Committee on the Bill shall stand referred to the Committee on the Bill in the next Session ; Ordered,
That no Petitioners shall be heard before the Committee on the Bill, unless their Petition has been presented within the
Column 334
time limited within the present Session or deposited pursuant to paragraph (b) of Standing Order 126 relating to Private Business ; Ordered,That, in relation to the Bill, Standing Order 127 relating to Private Business shall have effect as if the words under Standing Order 126 (Reference to committee of petitions against Bill)' were omitted ;
Ordered,
That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session ;
Ordered,
That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.
King's Cross Railways Bill
Motion made,
That the Promoters of the King's Cross Railways Bill shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office not later than the day before the close of the present Session of their intention to suspend further proceedings and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid ;
That on the fifth day on which the House sits in the next Session the Bill shall be presented to the House ;
That there shall be deposited with the Bill a declaration signed by the Agents for the Bill, stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill at the last stage of its proceedings in this House in the present Session ;
That the Bill shall be laid upon the Table of the House by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office on the next meeting of the House after the day on which the Bill has been presented and, when so laid, shall be read the first and second time (and shall be recorded in the Journal of this House as having been so read) and, having been amended by the Committee in the present Session, shall be ordered to lie upon the Table ;
That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session ;
That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Column 335
Oral Answers to Questions
SCOTLAND
Housing Finance, Glasgow
1. Mrs. Fyfe : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is his total consent for Glasgow district council to meet capital expenses on the non-housing revenue account block of housing in 1991-92 ; how much of that total he requires the council to borrow, and at what anticipated rate of interest ; and how much he expects to be raised from (a) the disposal of capital assets, (b) the repayment of principal on loans, (c) insurance claims, (d) leases in specified categories and (e) any other non-HRA receipts.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton) : The gross non-HRA allocation issued to the City of Glasgow district council for capital investment in private housing in 1991- 92 is £24.1 million. Estimated non-HRA capital receipts in 1991-92 are £766,000, all of which is expected to be generated by the repayment of principal on loans. Capital receipts from other sources are estimated to be nil. Details of the extent, terms and conditions of proposed borrowing by the council in 1991-92 are not held centrally.
Mrs. Fyfe : Will the Minister explain why, when Glasgow district council, the housing associations and the co-operatives have been so successful in restoring Glasgow's tenements, the permission to borrow money is limited to £24 million this year when even four years ago it was £55 million? Does he realise that, as a result, no fewer than 1, 500 tenement owners have been turned down by the council for repair grants this year and the housing associations' programmes are being held up irrevocably until the problem is solved? Will the Minister commit himself to improving those resources forthwith?
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : I am aware of the problems in Glasgow that the hon. Lady mentions. Similar problems arise in Edinburgh. They will be borne in mind and if there is a possibility of making supplementary allocations later in the year, the points that she made will be fully considered. About £500 million has been spent by housing associations in Glasgow, which is almost half the total for Scotland. That has made an enormous impact on the tenements in the hon. Lady's constituency as well as elsewhere in Glasgow. In addition, 40 per cent. of the housing support grant is spent in Glasgow, so Glasgow receives the lion's share of the funding.
Mr. Nigel Griffiths : The Minister mentioned Edinburgh. Will he come clean with the House and the people of Edinburgh and admit that hundreds of homeowners are on the waiting list for repair grants? Why does not the Minister put his money where his mouth is and clear that backlog?
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : We allocated to Edinburgh district council £8.25 million for this year to enable the repairs grant backlog to be cleared. That was precisely the sum requested by the district council. We later discovered that the estimates were inaccurate, in contrast to those given by Glasgow officials. We shall bear in mind the points that the hon. Gentleman makes.
Column 336
Infertility Treatment
2. Mr. Thurnham : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what are the in vitro fertilisation success rates in Scottish hospitals ; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Mr. Michael Forsyth) : The Interim Licensing Authority publishes information on a United Kingdom basis about the outcome of in vitro fertilisation treatment programmes in its annual reports.
Mr. Ernie Ross : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker : What has arisen as a result of what the Minister said?
Mr. Ernie Ross : Can we honestly start Scottish questions without a single Scottish Tory Back-Bench Member being present?
Mr. Speaker : That is not a matter for me.
Mr. Forsyth : Perhaps I may repeat the answer. The Interim Licensing Authority publishes information on a United Kingdom basis about the outcome of in vitro fertilisation treatment programmes in its annual reports. That information is grouped according to the number of treatment cycles attempted by each clinic.
Mr. Thurnham : I hope that the success rates will be published. We can all take pride in the fact that Britain leads the world in this area. Will my hon. Friend press for strict control of costs in the new licensing authority? Surely £1 million should be enough for the budget in the first year if clinics are paying half the costs.
Mr. Forsyth : I agree with my hon. Friend about the quality of the work being done in this area in the United Kingdom. I will certainly ensure that his point about the publication of the information is drawn to the attention of the authority. I share his views that it is important that the costs of the authority are kept well under control, because, as he points out, half the costs will need to be met through licensing fees, which are raised by the authority.
Dr. Godman : Will the Minister give the House an assurance that no married couples will be denied access to such treatment because of where they live in Scotland? Does he agree that there should be equality of access to such treatment?
Mr. Forsyth : I hesitate to make too much of a habit of agreeing with the hon. Gentleman at Scottish questions. As he knows, provision is made according to health boards and the priorities that they set for this service, particularly IVF services. I think that the hon. Gentleman is pressing me to consider the need for an overall Scotland approach to the provision of these services and I am happy to undertake to look at that matter later this year, once I have had the results from an in-house working party which is considering the question.
Strathclyde (Finance)
3. Mr. Michael J. Martin : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he will next meet Strathclyde region to discuss its financial situation ; and if he will make a statement.
Column 337
11. Mr. McAvoy : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has to meet representatives of Strathclyde regional council to discuss the council's financial position.The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Allan Stewart) : The leader of Strathclyde regional council was among representatives of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities whom I met on 8 July to discuss local government finance issues.
Mr. Martin : The Minister will know that at that meeting Strathclyde conveyed that it used to cost £8 million to collect the rates and that it collected 90 per cent. of them, whereas it is costing £28 million to collect the poll tax and there is a shortfall of £70 million. Does he agree that Strathclyde is a responsible local authority? It has embarked on advertising campaigns to try to get the revenue in. How will the Minister resolve the problem and assist Strathclyde to get the £70 million?
Mr. Stewart : A slowdown in payment levels was inevitable while re- billing took place to reflect the £140 reduction in the headline community charge. Strathclyde issued its revised bills for 1991-92 [Interruption.] [ Hon. Members :-- "Hear, hear."] I am grateful to hon. Members for cheering this important information about Strathclyde regional council. I shall repeat it. Strathclyde issued its revised 1991-92 bills only in mid-June. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we have taken full account of the cash flow position and that Strathclyde regional council and the district councils in Strathclyde have received front-loaded grant payments of £125 million--that is extra grant that they would not otherwise have received until the end of June.
Mr. McAvoy : Strathclyde is facing a financial crisis due to the administrative nightmare of collecting the poll tax. I remind the Under- Secretary of State that the Prime Minister himself said that the poll tax was uncollectable. Does the Under-Secretary accept that he and his Government are responsible for the crisis facing local authorities and will he at least try to ease the burden on councils and people by abolishing the 20 per cent. contribution?
Mr. Stewart : The House has taken a view on this matter and the legislation stands. The authorities have a statutory duty to collect outstanding charges and they have a wide range of powers available to them to do so. I remind the hon. Gentleman that the report of the Public Accounts Commission confirmed the view that authorities have not made full and effective use of their powers.
The House must ask why it is that some authorities, for example Grampian, Fife and Central--all Labour controlled--have collected more than 90 per cent. of their budgeted income for 1989 and more than 85 per cent. for 1991. Unfortunately, those figures have not been repeated by other councils.
Mr. McKelvey : Nevertheless, will the Minister believe me when I tell him that I have just had a panic phone call from my secretary in Kilmarnock to tell me that she is inundated with people telephoning and sending letters because they are desperately worried about the poll tax and the new figures that have just been produced? That anxiety is particularly felt by the elderly. Can the Minister
Column 338
advise the House and me, so that I can advise those people, about precisely what the formula means for the reduction scheme? For a single person household the formula is :B (S £52)
For multiple persons it is :
(B C (S [(C 1) £52])
All that followed by the poll tax.
Mr. Stewart : I am very sorry to learn that the hon. Gentleman is receiving panic phone calls, particularly over such a simple, straightforward formula. These are matters for the community charge registration officer, but if the hon. Gentleman is in any doubt about some of the details of the formula I shall be happy, of course, to arrange a meeting with him when I can explain it to him further.
Mr. Maxton : When will the Minister accept that it was he and his Government who created the shambles of the poll tax and that it is he and his Government who have the responsibility to clear up the mess that they created? They should stop trying to pass the buck on to everyone else but themselves.
Will the Minister take two immediate courses of action? First, will he now explain to the House why, if it is right to abolish the 20 per cent. payment for the new tax, it is wrong to abolish that payment now? Secondly, will he accept his own liabilities in terms of the tax by paying to Strathclyde region and other regional authorities £140 for every person eligible to pay the poll tax and not just £140 for those who have paid it?
Mr. Stewart : On the hon. Gentleman's first point, the 20 per cent. rule will not apply to the new tax. I have told the House repeatedly that that is a new tax and that the existing legislation stands for the present tax. The hon. Gentleman should start asking why the collection levels vary so much throughout Scotland.
On the hon. Gentleman's final point, I recognise that COSLA desires that the community charge grant should be based on an authority's original payment assumptions rather than on the actual collection rate. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we shall take that into account when we are considering the arrangements for finalising grant payments.
Lanarkshire Economy
4. Mr. Tom Clarke : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what specific objectives the Government have in mind for the regeneration of Lanarkshire's economy.
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Ian Lang) : Our objective for the regeneration of Lanarkshire's economy is the creation of new jobs in Lanarkshire. That will best be done by increasing private sector investment in the area.
Mr. Clarke : Since not a word of that answer was new, will the Secretary of State tell us precisely what Scottish Enterprise is doing to encourage the establishment of the paper recycling plant at Gartcosh? What action is the Scottish Office taking on the great problem of derelict land in Monklands district? What is the Scottish Office doing about the need to reinvigorate land for industry and about training and transport links? In view of the devastation that we are witnessing in Monklands, Strathkelvin and Lanarkshire generally, will the right hon. Gentleman encourage the Prime Minister to respond to the request from my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for
Column 339
Monklands, East (Mr. Smith) and agree to a meeting with my Lanarkshire colleagues, if necessary before the recess, so that we can establish urgently that Lanarkshire will see the difference between action and mere rhetoric?Mr. Lang : Action is precisely what Lanarkshire development agency is embarked on with the full support of, and resources provided by, the Government. Some 16 sites that have been identified for immediate action can now be proceeded with as a result of the working group report and the funds made available by central Government. This year, we have made available to district councils £4 million of capital consents for factory building, and £3.9 million, including allowances, for training --about which the hon. Gentleman also asked--has been added to Lanarkshire Development Agency's baseline budget. The hon. Gentleman will know that we are looking closely at the transport problems and have asked Strathclyde to carry out an urgent study of the A8-M8 arrangements with a view to improving the infrastructure in Lanarkshire.
Mr. Speaker : I call Sir Nicholas Fairbairn.
Sir Nicholas Fairbairn : I hope that I can ask as many questions as I have had cheers. I am grateful for those cheers.
Before we get into the "fantasie" that Lanarkshire has suffered under this Government. I remind the House of the great advances that have been made at Hamilton with the great country park and at Chatelherault ; the regeneration of the entire city centre of Glasgow ; and the enormous investment that has been made in Lanarkshire by new as opposed to out-of- date industries.
Mr. Lang : My hon. and learned Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to those important environmental improvements and he could have drawn attention to many more. The House might also like to know that one in five of the substantial number of inward investments brought to Scotland in the past decade has gone to Lanarkshire. More than 100 new manufacturing enterprises have started in Lanarkshire since the Government came to office.
Mr. Worthington : When will the Government act to solve the growing crisis in youth training and employment in Lanarkshire and rest of Scotland? This year in Strathclyde, there has been a 62 per cent. fall in the number of job offers, and youth training places have been cut by 4,000. In almost all of Scotland there has been a similar fall. In Lanarkshire it is particularly severe. It is estimated that there will be between 1,300 and 1,500 fewer youth training places this year. There has been a massive fall in the number of youth training places. The Government cut the youth training budget by nearly 20 per cent. this year. When will they restore those cuts in youth training in Lanarkshire and elsewhere?
Mr. Lang : I have already given the hon. Gentleman the figures for the Lanarkshire development agency's resources, which have been added to its baseline budget for training. As for youth training and employment training generally, the hon. Gentleman knows that we have created vast new resources and schemes for training which were unheard of under the last Labour Government. He also knows that there was a 20 per cent. underspend on the
Column 340
employment training budget last year. We are spending about five times more than the last Labour Government on training.Dental Anaesthetics
5. Mr. Canavan : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will now take steps to ensure adequate safety standards for children who receive a general anaesthetic for dental surgery.
Mr. Michael Forsyth : I share the hon. Gentleman's concern about the risks associated with general anaesthesia, especially in children's dentistry. I hope that we will be in a position to issue further guidance shortly.
Mr. Canavan : In view of recent incidents, including the tragic case of four-year-old Jenna Smith, who died after receiving a general anaesthetic in a dental surgery in Falkirk, and the evidence at the fatal accident inquiry that the anaesthetic equipment and the drugs available were out of date, will the Minister bear in mind the reported comments of Dr. Donald Braid--Scotland's top specialist in anaesthesia--that too many dentists are trying to administer anaesthetics on the cheap? Will the Minister intervene to stop the practice of administering general anaesthetics without adequate equipment and training and provide facilities in general hospitals for the administration of general anaesthetics for dental patients who require it, especially young children?
Mr. Forsyth : I understand that at the fatal accident inquiry the sheriff determined that Jenna's death was the result of a rare blood disorder and that no blame attached to either the dentist or the consultant anaesthetist. On the provision of facilities in hospital, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be delighted to know that it is proposed to have facilities in Falkirk by the turn of the year.
Mr. Dickens : Does my hon. Friend agree that many children in Scotland, and indeed throughout the world, are nervous when they go to the dentist--welcome to the club, because I think that we all are? Does he agree that the days of gas, when parents sat in an anteroom listening to their children screaming next door, have gone and that anaesthetics are much more sophisticated these days? However, in the light of the sad tragedies that have happened throughout the United Kingdom--I am not referring to the one mentioned earlier--will my hon. Friend ensure that urgency is attached to issuing the new guidelines and ensuring that they are strictly adhered to?
Mr. Forsyth : My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health has taken the lead on that matter and I am sure that he will want to move as speedily as possible. My hon. Friend the Member for Littleborough and Saddleworth (Mr. Dickens) is right to draw attention to the importance of the matter. In dentistry, particularly children's dental health, we are trying to put more effort and resources into prevention. As a result of the new contract for dentists, I believe that children's dental health will improve and the need for extractions and treatment of the sort requiring anaesthesia will be much reduced.
Mr. Harry Ewing : Is the Minister aware that the dental surgery in question was in my constituency? Will the Minister condemn the practice of using drugs and other materials which, in that case, were not just marginally out
Column 341
of date, but years out of date? Will the Minister issue a circular to dentists to ensure that when a drug becomes out of date it is returned either to the health board or the manufacturer and in no circumstances is used on patients? If he did so, he would be doing a favour to everyone who uses dentists.Mr. Forsyth : It would not be right for me to comment on that case. There was a fatal accident inquiry, which concluded that the death was the result of a rare blood disorder ; it would be wrong for me to go beyond that. I shall certainly draw the hon. Gentleman's general point about the use of time-expired drugs to the attention of officials in the Department and write to him.
Sunday Trading
6. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many representations he has received in the last six months about the law in respect of Sunday trading in Scotland.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : In the past six months, letters from two people have been received advocating the imposition of restrictions on Sunday trading in Scotland.
Mr. Marshall : Does my hon. Friend accept that the fact that so few people have written in suggests that the vast majority of Scottish people are satisfied with the present law, under which there are no restrictions on Sunday trading? Does he agree that it is high time that the people of England enjoyed similar benefits? Is he aware that in 1986, 43 Scottish Labour, SNP and Liberal Members voted against the people of England enjoying benefits similar to those in Scotland? Does not it illustrate the humbug talked by those hon. Members? They object to English Members coming to Scottish Question Time, but are willing to vote on legislation that affects the people of England and Wales.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : My hon. Friend is correct that the current arrangements in Scotland are operating satisfactorily. The hon. Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Ewing) introduced the original Bill on licensing, the terms of which were warmly welcomed. It was supplemented with recent measures in the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland)--Act 1990. There is one minor exception to the Sunday trading laws in Scotland which relates to hairdressers and barbers. The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall) is, in the first instance, a matter for the Home Secretary and, ultimately, as far as it relates to England and Wales, for the House of Commons. The House will have noted what my hon. Friend said.
Mr. Foulkes : I was one of the Members who voted against the wholesale extension of Sunday trading to England because at present Sunday trading in Scotland is fairly limited. If it were extended to England it is believed that all the multiples throughout the United Kingdom would open. If the retail trade presented a compromise proposal for limited opening-- and such a proposal is being discussed--some Opposition Members and some Conservative Members might be willing to reconsider the issue.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : Sunday trading in Scotland is limited to areas in which the communities have
Column 342
made it clear that Sunday opening is welcome. There has been considerable sensitivity to the wishes of the communities concerned. I think that the majority of people take the view that collecting a bottle of milk or a newspaper on Sunday from the local shop does not impair the sanctity of the Sabbath.Miss Emma Nicholson : I am delighted to hear the Minister say that there are some sensitivities in Scotland on Sunday trading. As I have significant Scottish blood stretching back over 980 years, I am glad to have the opportunity to express the views of people in western Scotland. Does the Minister agree that the success of Sunday trading in areas of Scotland where people want it is due to the exceptional economic boom in Scotland under a Conservative Government?
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : I agree with my hon. Friend that we have brought substantial economic advantages to Scotland. I welcome her view, especially as a few days ago in Glasgow city chambers she made a good speech on behalf of ADAPT, access for disabled people to arts premises. These issues should be borne in mind, and I have no doubt that in due course the House will wish to consider them.
Convention of Scottish Local Authorities
7. Mr. Harry Ewing : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has to meet with COSLA to discuss the financial position of Scottish local authorities.
Mr. Lang : My hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for industry and local government in Scotland met the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities on 8 July, and I hope to meet the president later this month.
Mr. Ewing : In a constructive vein, may I suggest to the Secretary of State a way in which he could help some Scottish local authorities to develop their spending programmes? He could ensure that funds from the European regional development fund for coal mining communities, which have suffered as a result of the demise of the coal industry, are released to areas such as Central region. Will he use his powers under the Local Government Acts to set aside the spending limits imposed on such authorities so that they may accept money from the ERDF and get on with their planned programmes?
Mr. Lang : The hon. Gentleman was a member of a Government--a comparatively rare event nowadays for members of the Labour party--and therefore knows the importance of managing public expenditure in a way that ensures that there is no overspend giving rise to the danger of increasing inflation. The Government have been extremely successful in securing grants for Scotland from the various European funds. About £1.25 billion has been secured for Scotland over the years, and we shall continue to be as effective and successful as we can in taking advantage of all the funds that are available for Scotland.
Sir David Steel : Has the Secretary of State yet made a total assessment of the cost to Scottish local authorities and, therefore, to the Scottish people of the poll tax fiasco--the introduction of the tax, the score or so of amendments and its abolition and replacement? If he has
Column 343
made that assessment, will he produce the figure so that everybody will know the total cost of the Government's incompetence?Mr. Lang : As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the poll tax exists to raise resources for spending by local authorities. The fact that those authorities now have to raise more than they did a few years ago shows that local authorities have continued substantially to increase their spending, despite substantially increased grants from the Government. Let us hope that the council tax is more effective in controlling high spending.
| Next Section
| Home Page |