House of Commons Hansard Debates for 17 Jul 1991

Mr. Bill Walker : Does my right hon. Friend find it astonishing that Scottish local authorities should claim that they are strapped for cash and are having to cut programmes while at the same time they are able to invest large sums? Does he agree that highly paid officials are responsible for investments, especially when they are bad investments?

Mr. Lang : I certainly agree with my hon. Friend that local authorities should control their public expenditure programmes in accordance with the resources available to them. To some extent, that depends on their efficiency in using the powers that are available to them to collect local taxation.

Mr. Macdonald : I understand that Scottish Office officials will be meeting the Western Isles council later this week to discuss the financial crisis in which that council finds itself. Notwithstanding the Government's general policy on the collapse of BCCI, will the Secretary of State instruct his officials to take as constructive and as positive approach as possible in discussions with the Western Isles council so that we can find some way of resolving the crisis without the full burden falling on ordinary people in the Western Isles who had no part in the decision which led to the crisis--the schoolchildren, the old folk and others who still have to rely on council services?

Mr. Lang : Of course I understand the hon. Gentleman's great concern about the circumstances of the Western Isles council. My officials have been in touch with the council and they have also had meetings with the three other district councils affected by the closure of BCCI. We shall examine carefully any proposition put to us by the Western Isles council, but I must emphasise that the responsibility for what has happened lies with the council, not with the Government, and there can be no question of the Government stepping in to bail it out.

Mr. Burns : Will my right hon. Friend reiterate, and make plain his views to English Ministers, that there can be no question of the Government's bailing out the foolish local authorities that invested their money in BCCI in order to make what they hoped would be a quick buck?

Mr. Lang : I understand my hon. Friend's concern about the matter. He will have heard what I have said and what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said last week on the subject.

Mr. Wilson : In spite of the rather unsubtle blandishments that the Secretary of State will receive from his hon. Friends, such as those from the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns), will he act in this matter with some social compassion and concern for the people who will ultimately be the victims of what has happened? Does

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he accept that it is unreasonable to expect that if highly paid officials--as the hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) referred to them--of the Bank of England and the Department of the Environment cannot spot any rottenness in a financial institution when they are sitting in the heart of London, it is just a little more difficult for local authority officials in far-flung parts of Scotland to do so? Will he particularly bear in mind that single-tier authorities, by their nature, although covering small populations, have heavy financial burdens because they are responsible for social work, education and so on which would usually be the preserve of regions? In other contexts, that may be a good thing, but in this case it has exposed the council, and, more importantly the people of the Western Isles, to a disproportionate budget. In short, will the Minister not close any doors and deal with the matter as humanely, sympathetically and understandingly as is possible?

Mr. Lang : The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the Bank of England's powers are based on statute. It acted at the appropriate time and at the earliest possible time that it could have acted. With regard to the Western Isles council, I have nothing to add to what I have already said in answer to the hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Macdonald).

Employment Initiatives

8. Mr. Ernie Ross : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what initiatives he intends taking to reduce unemployment in Scotland.

14. Mr. Strang : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he plans any new measures to reduce unemployment.

Mr. Allan Stewart : My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State recently announced a package of measures amounting to some £40 million to help unemployed people in Scotland back to work. That is on top of the substantial funding for Scottish Enterprise, Highlands and Islands Enterprise and the local enterprise companies, which is already more than £ billion in the current year. In the final analysis, it is a productive economy which provides new jobs and we are vigorously removing barriers to economic growth.

Mr. Ross : As the Minister has identified the need for industry to be healthy and given the drubbing that he and the Secretary of State for Scotland took yesterday in the Scottish Grand Committee, I am sure that the House will think that they should have read the proceedings of that Committee and come forward with a better response. Will we have to wait until the Prime Minister comes to the House on Friday to report on the G7 meeting to see some stimulus for investment given Scotland's heavy reliance on capital goods?

Mr. Stewart : I was not able to respond to all the points made by the hon. Gentleman in that debate because he did not sit down until about nine minutes to one. I am disappointed in his supplementary question. I thought that he would say how pleased he was that General Accident has invested £3.75 million in an office complex in the Dundee technology park in his constituency which will result in 350 locally recruited jobs. That is just one example of the health and dynamism of the Scottish economy.

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Mr. Strang : Is the Minister aware that the Secretary of State's recitation in the Scottish Grand Committee yesterday of selective, spurious statistics about the Scottish economy demeans the debate about Scotland? Everyone who lives in Scotland knows that unemployment there is serious and getting worse. The Secretary of State partially excuses the run down in the steel industry on the ground that heavy engineering, shipbuilding, car manufacturing at Linwood, and vehicle production at Bathgate have all been closed--but that was done by the present Government. It is now wholly unacceptable for them to shut down the steel industry itself, because that will make it impossible to attract steel-using industries back to Scotland.

Mr. Stewart : The Government do not propose to shut down the steel industry in Scotland and, as Labour does not propose to nationalise it, a Labour Government would have no power to intervene either. I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that the number employed in business and financial services--which are of great importance to Edinburgh, where the hon. Gentleman himself represents a constituency--increased by 50 per cent. since 1979. Between 1986 and 1989 the Scottish economy grew by about 12 per cent., which contrasts markedly with the miserable average growth rate achieved under the last Labour Government of less than1 per cent.

Mr. Andy Stewart : Does my hon. Friend the Minister agree that if Labour's plans for a minimum wage were implemented, it would have a catastrophic effect on employment in Scotland?

Mr. Allan Stewart : My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and a whole list of independent commentators agrees with him.

Mr. Wilson indicated dissent.

Mr. Stewart : Does the hon. Gentleman want me to read out the list, because it is quite long? Gavin Laird, who I understand is greatly respected by Labour Members, described Labour's proposals for a national minimum wage as "a nonsense". He said :

"It has never worked in the past. There is no logic for it. It does not work in any other country, and it will certainly not work in Great Britain."

Labour could do the unemployed a great service by heeding Gavin Laird's wise words.

Mr. Dewar : How can the Minister ignore the fact that when the Conservatives came to power, unemployment in Scotland--comparing like with like--was 140,000, but is now 220,000 and rising? How can the Minister be so criminally complacent, when already this year another 20,000 Scots have joined the dole queue? In the last six months, bankruptcies in Scotland have risen by 80 per cent., and liquidations by more than 50 per cent. Has the hon. Gentleman forgotten the hammer blows dealt to the Scottish steel industry, and yesterday's grim news that 900 jobs are to go at Rosyth and that 1,000 naval personnel there are to be withdrawn? When will the Government learn that problems cannot be solved by pretending that they do not exist?

Mr. Stewart : Over the past 10 years, the number of companies in Scotland has increased by 25,000, or by 68 per cent.-- [Interruption.] Just listen. Every independent

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commentator has pointed out that Scotland is coming through the present economic downturn--and yes, there is an economic downturn--relatively well.

Mr. Dewar indicated dissent.

Mr. Stewart : I refer the hon. Gentleman to Cambridge Econometrics and to the Fraser of Allander Institute, which have conveyed the same message. I am not suggesting that there are no problems--of course there are. However, they would be a great deal worse if there were a Labour Government, who would allow local authorities to spend as much as they liked at the expense of business ratepayers. They would also be a great deal worse off if the hon. Gentleman's plans for a Scottish Assembly with tax-raising powers were imposed on the Scottish people, and if Labour imposed a statutory national minimum wage. That could cost Scotland as many as 174,000 jobs.

Greater Glasgow Health Board

9. Mr. Watson : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he intends to meet the Greater Glasgow health board to discuss the board's underspend on salaries for the year ending 31 March.

Mr. Michael Forsyth : The Greater Glasgow health board is the best- funded health board in Scotland. Its record on patient care and financial management is excellent.

Mr. Watson : According to the board's own figures, there was an underspend of more than £5 million in the salaries bill for the year ending 31 March 1991. How can the Minister reconcile that with the board's record of driving down staff costs by a variety of means--including delaying regrading exercises for technicians and nurses, and, when it gets round to regrading them, placing them on lower grades than other health boards would? The board has also delayed the filling of vacant posts, sometimes not filling them at all. As a result, the Richmond Park special needs school, which is in my constituency, does not have enough speech and occupational therapists to teach children with problems.

Will the Minister remind the Greater Glasgow health board of its duty to deliver services efficiently to the people of Glasgow, and to ensure that it fully utilises its already inadequate resources to that end?

Mr. Forsyth : The hon. Gentleman will recall that he was told in May about the background to the position that has arisen in the school. It has nothing to do with financial circumstances, and everything to do with circumstances resulting from--if I remember rightly--maternity leave. [Interruption.] I was talking about the school. As for the hon. Gentleman's point about speech therapists, he will know of the initiative that we have taken. That initiative which affects all health boards, not just the Greater Glasgow health board--will provide for a system of contracts between health boards and education authorities.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned a 5 per cent. underspend on salaries. He might also have mentioned the additional money committed by the board for services and supplies. Boards are allowed to carry over up to 1 per cent. of their total spending from one financial year into the next. That is what Greater Glasgow health board has

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done, no doubt in order to fund some of the splendid improvements in service from which the Glasgow people will benefit in the coming year.

Mr. David Marshall : Is it not an absolute scandal that the board should have such an underspend on salaries when, for example, the ophthalmic surgery waiting list for patients in the east end of Glasgow is in a sorry mess? In a letter sent to me only this week, the chairman of the board told me how long the three categories of patients were having to wait. Urgent cases must wait for up to three months, "soon" cases for 12 to 18 months and routine cases for 18 months to two years.

Should not the board have used some of that underspend to employ additional ophthalmic surgeons to treat people with eyesight problems--or does the Minister feel that such problems do not deserve to be given priority by either the Government or the board?

Mr. Forsyth : If the hon. Gentleman had been listening, he would have heard me say that the underspend was part of the money that is being carried forward into this year's budget. As the Government are setting targets on waiting times which are to be agreed with all health boards, including the Greater Glasgow health board, the board will be able to deploy the money to achieve the quality of service that we are determined to see.

I agree with the hon. Gentleman : if the information that he has given is accurate, the position is unacceptable, and the board will certainly not meet the target set for it.

Mr. Galbraith : Does the Minister not realise that the reason why the Greater Glasgow health board is having to carry over £5 million from last year's budget is the need partly to offset the £13 million cuts required in this year's budget? Is he aware that the board itself predicts that it will require cuts of £40 million in the next two years? That can lead only to a significant deterioration in patient care.

The Minister's chief executive has already met the board, and dismissed its request for additional funds. Will the Minister himself now meet the board to discuss the crisis and avert further damage to the health service in Glasgow and the surrounding area?

Mr. Forsyth : I am sure that everyone who lives in Paisley, Ayr and the surrounding areas of Glasgow will be interested to learn that Labour policy apparently does not support the idea that money should follow patients out to the new hospitals that we have built in those areas to reflect the movement of population. The hon. Gentleman knows full well that resources are being transferred to boards that have been population-gainers and that those boards have benefited from the brand-new hospitals that the Government have built. The Government believe that care should be available where people are and that money should follow the patient. The hon. Gentleman is making a debating point which is unworthy of anyone who seeks to sit on the Government Benches.

British Steel

10. Mr. Salmond : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent meetings he has had with the chairman of British Steel to discuss investment in Scottish plants.

Mr. Lang : I last met the chairman of British Steel on4 June this year.

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Mr. Salmond : Now that the Secretary of State for Scotland has finally come out to play on this question after dodging his responsibilities for the last two weeks, will he confirm the contents of the Scottish Office briefing note, which I have in my hand, which says that he was briefed to go to a meeting on 4 June, knowing of the anticipated closure of the Dalzell plate mill, and to say, in response to the chairman of British Steel, that it was entirely a matter for him, subject to competition law? All that was simultaneous with the Prime Minister's letter of support to the Dalzell shop stewards. How does the Secretary of State for Scotland reconcile that public posture of support with the private reality of sell out?

Mr. Lang : Over the last two weeks the hon. Gentleman has repeatedly and authoritatively attributed to me words that I did not use and has based upon them a number of deeply offensive remarks. I have now ascertained that the words that the hon. Gentleman has attributed to me derive from a briefing for another Minister. The other Minister is a Minister in another Department. The words in question were not said by that Minister. The briefing in question was not submitted to that Minister. The meeting for which that briefing was prepared did not take place. I believe that the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) must have known that that was so. Therefore, he now stands exposed, caught out in a cheap and contemptible ruse. He was wrong about the briefing ; he was wrong about the meeting ; he was wrong about the Minister ; he was wrong about the Department. I invite him to withdraw all the contemptible and unfounded allegations that he has made and to apologise.

Dr. Bray : Is the Secretary of State aware that British Steel's plate mill strategy was to reject the cheaper option of developing the Dalzell works? Nevertheless, there are a few months during which British Steel will try to find the additional £300 million that is required for a new plate mill on Teesside before any contracts are placed. Will he therefore keep up the maximum pressure on British Steel, during the few months in which he will remain a member of the Government, to make sure that the cheaper and more effective option of developing the Dalzell works is fully considered? Will he extend his representations beyond the obviously lame duck chairman of British Steel, who only has a few months to go? Will he approach immediately the management of British Steel and discuss the issue?

Mr. Lang : I do not know how right the hon. Gentleman is about the longevity of the chairman of British Steel's tenure of office, but he does not sound very confident about the likelihood of his own party's coming to office. He knows that British Steel will continue to need the products of Dalzell, subject to market conditions, for several years. It is likely that British Steel will continue to need the products of Dalzell beyond the present guarantee period--to the end of 1994. The hon. Gentleman also knows how hard my predecessor and I, and other Ministers in my Department, have sought to persuade British Steel of the desirability of locating their single plate mill at Dalzell. Furthermore, he knows that if any additional opportunities arise for us to put that case in an effective, successful and positive way, we shall take them.

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Mr. Dewar : Will the Secretary of State note that we are not interested in the endless pursuit of the unimportant, where the only aim appears to be to secure party political points at the expense of the industry? The Opposition expect him to continue to put every pressure that he can upon British Steel to reconsider its decision that the Scottish industry is not worthy of investment. We believe--and I understand that the Secretary of State for Scotland believes--that there is a very strong case for investment in Dalzell and Ravenscraig. In those circumstances, the Government should not throw in the towel and withdraw from the fight.

May I also ask the Secretary of State to exert constant pressure regarding the offering for sale of redundant plant--redundant from the point of view of British Steel? He told the Select Committee on Trade and Industry that there had been expressions of interest in that plant. It would be a complete tragedy if people who might be interested in buying it were unable to pursue that interest. Finally, does the Secretary of State accept that we are particularly interested that there should be a decent, realistic and practical package to help the Lanarkshire economy to recover from its present troubles? The existing offer, totalling £29 million, does not meet that description.

Mr. Lang : The hon. Gentleman will have heard my answer to the question asked by the hon. Member for Motherwell, South (Dr. Bray) which also answers his first point. As for the future of Lanarkshire, the hon. Gentleman will also be aware that the Lanarkshire working group produced a series of proposals to be developed over a period of years. We have already made substantial resources available sufficient to cover the immediate needs for the development of the working group's proposals. We have given an undertaking that Lanarkshire will feature highly in our priorities in the public expenditure round for the next financial year. I share the hon. Gentleman's wish for Lanarkshire's economy to be regenerated. It has already made considerable strides in the past few years towards diversification and a strengthening of its economic base. I should like that to continue and I have no doubt that the best chance for it to do so will be the return of a Conservative Government.

Teachers

12. Mrs. Margaret Ewing : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what specific allocation of funding has been made to regional councils to increase the number and training of learning support teachers in the next academic session ; and what was the position in the previous five years.

Mr. Michael Forsyth : I have invited the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to let me have its views on how we can improve learning support for the three Rs.

Mrs. Ewing : Does the Minister recall that on at least three occasions in late February and in early March he made public statements to the effect that there would be an increase in learning support funding in the near future? Against the background of a rise in general reading standards does not the Minister think that it would now be appropriate before the start of the next academic year to state clearly what additional funding will be available in a much-needed and much-appreciated service?

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Mr. Forsyth : As I said to the hon. Lady, I have asked the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to let me have its views on how we can best target resources for learning support. The hon. Lady said that she believed that there has been an improvement in reading standards. We are especially concerned about children who have difficulties with reading, writing and arithmetic, and I am ready to consider the proposals that the convention will make in the context of the proposals for primary testing on which we expect to make an announcement shortly.

Government of Scotland

13. Mrs. Ray Michie : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received from the Campaign for a Scottish Assembly on the future government of Scotland.

Mr. Lang : Representations on the future Government of Scotland from the Campaign for a Scottish Assembly are now reduced to a pre-printed postcard campaign.

Mrs. Michie : As the majority of people in Scotland have made clear their demand for a Scottish Parliament, does not the Secretary of state demean his office by his reactionary attitude and does not he denigrate and insult the Scottish nation by implying that it is too poor and too stupid to look after its own affairs?

Mr. Lang : I should never dream of making such a suggestion. The last time that the Scottish people were asked to pass judgment on whether they wanted an Assembly, they did not support the idea--only about one third voted in favour. As for the present opinion of the Scottish people, an authoritative Mori poll has shown that since June 1989 there has been a steady fall in support for a Scottish Assembly from 49 per cent. two years ago to 33 per cent. now. I hardly think that that is a ringing endorsement for a policy which happens to find favour with the hon. Lady.

Local Government Finance

15. Mr. Eadie : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what projections he has done of the estimated loss of revenue local authorities will suffer by uncollected poll tax ; and if he will list his estimates for each regional council in Scotland.

Mr. Allan Stewart : My right hon. Friend has made no estimates of the income which local authorities will lose through non-collection of the community charge. Charge collection is the responsibility of local authorities who have a wide range of recovery measures at their disposal.

Mr. Eadie : The Government should make estimates of what is happening. The Minister must be aware that the Scottish Office is responsible for the absolute shambles of the poll tax in Scotland. More than 40 per cent. of the people who should pay it are not paying it and, despite what the Minister said, that will not change. Is not he aware that Scottish local government is reaching a crisis and that very soon councils might not be able to discharge their statutory obligations?

Mr. Stewart : That is simply not the case. Local authorities have a statutory duty to collect outstanding charges. A wide range of powers are available to them. Again, I ask the hon. Gentleman and the House why some

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authorities, such as Grampian, Fife and Central, have collected well over 90 per cent. of budget income for 1989-90 and more than 85 per cent. for 1990-91. The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the Scottish Office will jointly monitor the collection position in coming months.

Aberdeen Royal Infirmary

16. Mr. Doran : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the annual budget and total number of staff of the Aberdeen Royal infirmary.

Mr. Michael Forsyth : Aberdeen Royal infirmary costs about £68 million a year to run and employs 2,346 staff.

Mr. Doran : The Minister will be aware that the consultation period is under way. There is great apprehension because the consultation period is taking place during the local holidays and while Parliament is in recess. There are already signs of fundamental changes in the application that has been submitted to the Scottish

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Office on the privatisation of the hyperbaric centre. Will the Minister consider an extension of the period of consultation to allow us to gather the facts on that change of plan? Failing that, will he give me an assurance today that factual questions will be answered by his Department and by the applicants?

Mr. Forsyth : The hon. Gentleman is wrong to associate the decision in respect of the hyperbaric centre with the application for NHS trust status from Foresterhill. The decision on the hyperbaric centre was taken by the health board because it believed that it would result in more research and a better quality of care being available to divers in the North sea and to others.

The consultation period has been set out clearly and the criteria by which the application will be judged are set out clearly. I am sure that Grampian health board will be happy to respond to requests for information from the hon. Gentleman. I have noticed that the hon. Gentleman's invitations to attend Labour party meetings have been circulating in the internal mail of the health board--a matter which I very much deprecate.

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