House of Commons Hansard Debates for 24 Jul 1991

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : Naturally, we listen to the advice of our embassy in Peking. We are concerned deeply about human rights violations and we take the opportunity to make our concern clear to the Chinese on all suitable occasions and at the United Nations.

Dr. Godman : Is it the Government's considered view that the Dalai Lama will never be allowed to return to his country? Is it not time that the United Nations, the European Community and the leaders of the advanced industrial nations stood up to the nasty, vicious old men in China who have inflicted such brutal outrages against the people whom that man so nobly leads?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : Of course, the question of the Dalai Lama's return to Tibet must be a matter for discussion between the Dalai Lama and the Chinese. The Chinese have offered to talk to the Dalai Lama, but, at present, they have set conditions with which the Dalai Lama is not happy. That impasse has to be resolved. We continue to encourage the Chinese to talk and we believe that dialogue offers the best solution.

Mr. Foulkes : Is it not sad that although you, Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition, the Prince of Wales, the Pope and now--

Mr. Hurd : And the Lord Chancellor.

Mr. Foulkes : All right, and the Lord Chancellor, and now President Bush have met the Dalai Lama that the Prime Minister had neither the sense nor the courtesy to do so? Will the Minister ensure that when the Prime Minister goes to Beijing as the first European head of state to do so

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since Tiananmen square he protests not only about violations of human rights in China, but about the clear violations of human rights in Tibet?

Mr. Adley indicated dissent.

Mr. Foulkes : The hon. Gentleman denies it, but The Guardian on Monday quotes the American ambassador in Beijing as saying during his visit to Lhasa that the Government's presentation of prison conditions in Tibet was as phoney as a $3 bill. We must protest about that.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has been in touch with the Dalai Lama who wrote a letter of congratulation to him on his election as leader of the Conservative party. The programme of my right hon. Friend's visit to China has not yet been finalised, but I have no doubt that human rights will form a part of his discussions with the Chinese leaders.

Sir David Steel : Is the Minister aware that when the Dalai Lama was here he reiterated to those of us who met him that his wish was merely to return to Tibet as the spiritual leader of his people without any claim for international autonomy for Tibet? In those circumstances, why do Ministers continue to refuse to meet him?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : The Dalai Lama is not planning to visit the United Kingdom at present. The hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes) said that President Bush had met the Dalai Lama. When President Bush did so, he emphasised the fact that the Americans regard Tibet as part of China. Those who press for such a meeting should consider whether it should be on the same terms.

Iraq

10. Mr. Strang : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he has made of the number of children under the age of five in Iraq who are likely to die of starvation or disease in the absence of additional humanitarian assistance.

Mr. Douglas Hogg : The report of the latest United Nations mission to Iraq estimates that 300,000 children below the age of six are malnourished. We have repeatedly stated that we have no quarrel with the Iraqi population. It is, however, the responsibility of the Iraqi regime to co-operate fully with the United Nations and thereby ensure that relief is brought to those in need.

Mr. Strang : But surely the Government are not going to turn their back on the dying children in Iraq? The Minister and his right hon. Friend are humane men and they well know that the British Government have United Nations authority to unfreeze Iraqi assets in this country. Why do they not do so and establish with the United Nations agencies on the ground in Iraq a mechanism to ensure that the money is used to avoid human starvation, suffering and death?

Mr. Hogg : There are two issues wrapped in that question. The first is that of Iraqi assets in United Kingdom jurisdiction. We have made it plain that while Mr. Richter is held in custody in Baghdad we can not agree to a release of the assets held in the United Kingdom. As

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for the report of Prince Sadruddin, he is recommending that there be a sale of oil under the provisions of article 23 of resolution 687. We shall reflect on that.

There are two important points to be dealt with : first, that the money goes into a United Nations account and is disbursed in accordance with the wishes of the Security Council and, secondly, that if food is purchased it is distributed in an even-handed way. We shall come to a final conclusion when we determine whether those specific provisos are capable of being met.

Mr. Ian Taylor : Will my hon. and learned Friend remind the House that if there is any suffering among the children in Iraq it is because of the brutality of Saddam Hussein and his complete insensitivity to the well- being of his people? If there were to be any arrangement which would allow the Iraqis to purchase foodstuffs and other supplies for their people, could my hon. and learned Friend assure the House that it would be done within the organisation of the United Nations so that no money purported to be destined for the children gets into Saddam Hussein's hands?

Mr. Hogg : My hon. Friend makes an important point. We have quite a lot of evidence about the state of affairs in Iraq, and I can tell the House that one group of people that is not suffering from malnutrition is Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath party. Privation is focused on the ordinary people of Iraq. Resolution 687 relaxed restrictions on the import of food, humanitarian necessities and medicines--which were never covered by the sanction regime. It is important to ensure that if oil is sold moneys thus released are used only for purposes of humanitarian relief and, to some extent, for other approved purposes, such as the special commission, the demarcation commission and the compensation fund.

Mr. Sillars : How long will the United Kingdom take to reflect on the sale of oil, bearing in mind that every day probably costs the lives not only of children but of men and women as well? What is the position of other members of the Security Council on this period of reflection?

Mr. Hogg : We shall come to a very early conclusion.

Sri Lanka

11. Mr. Pawsey : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on relations with Sri Lanka.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : We have supported the Sri Lankan Government in their efforts to overcome terrorism, but have also made very clear our concerns that all parties must respect human rights. Our response to Sri Lanka's unwarranted expulsion of our high commissioner has been to cancel high-level visits, further restrict arms sales and delay consideration of major new aid commitments. We will review these policies once a new high commissioner is in place.

Mr. Pawsey : I thank my hon. Friend for that typically helpful and detailed response. I take on board what he says about the importance of human rights, but can he suggest when a high commissioner will be reappointed to Sri Lanka? Can he also say when we might resume the provision of development aid to that island?

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Mr. Lennox-Boyd : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his support for our human rights policies. A new high commissioner will be appointed in the very near future, but I cannot say when. He will, of course, continue to make representations of the kind made by Mr. Gladstone. We have not cut off aid ; we have merely reconsidered one £3 million tranche of aid that was under consideration. Aid already in the pipeline, and already being spent in Sri Lanka, continues.

Mr. Faulds : Would not it be appropriate if hon. Members expressed their strong approval of the stand taken by David Gladstone, our former high commissioner, on the appalling abuses of human rights in Sri Lanka? I hope that the House will endorse that.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman and very much support what he says.

Middle East

12. Mr. Cyril D. Townsend : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on Britain's contribution to finding a diplomatic and peaceful solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict acceptable to the international community.

Mr. Hurd : We have been second to none in our support for Mr. Baker's initiative. We have urged all concerned to show flexibility. We welcome the constructive Arab responses to President Bush and Mr. Baker, and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister had an excellent discussion on the subject with President Mubarak this morning. I encouraged the Israeli Foreign Minister, Mr. Levy, when I met him on 18 July, to seize this opportunity for progress towards peace.

Mr. Townsend : Does my right hon. Friend agree that we have the best opportunity for settling the vexed Palestinian-Israeli problem that we have had since the previous round of fighting between the Israelis and the Arabs, and that it is therefore essential for the United Kingdom and our European Community partners to pull out all the stops to encourage a long- term peaceful settlement? Does my right hon. Friend also accept that the Syrians, several other Arab countries and the Palestine Liberation Organisation have made genuine concessions, and that the international community is entitled to look to the Israelis to make similar concessions shortly?

Mr. Hurd : I agree with my hon. Friend. We are now waiting for the considered Israeli response to the new situation and, in particular, to the Syrian President's response to President Bush. There is a chance here. The Israelis have within their grasp something for which, quite legitimately, they have been aiming for 40 years--an opportunity to sit down and talk peace and negotiate their disputes with those of their Arab neighbours who are still at war--still belligerent--with them. But of course, at the same time, the Israelis have to discuss with representatives of the Palestinians the problems of the occupied territories.

Mr. Janner : Has the Minister seen the reports this morning to the effect that Prime Minister Shamir compared President Assad's response to the Baker initiative with the response of the late President of Egypt when he came to Jerusalem? There is therefore hope of movement. Recognising that President Assad has total

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control in his country and is in fact a military dictator making his own decisions, whereas the Israeli Government is democratically elected--even if some of us would not have voted for them, just as we would not have voted for the Government here--does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the best way that we can help is by understanding the sensitivities of the Israeli Government and of the people who desperately want peace?

Mr. Hurd : I have always tried to do that, and the talk I had with the Israeli Foreign Minister last week was an example of both of us trying constructively to understand the view of the other. The hon. and learned Gentleman makes a fair point.

Mr. Temple-Morris : Will my right hon. Friend accept

congratulations thus far and will he further commend Secretary of State Baker for his painstaking shuttling in an effort to achieve peace in the region? Does my right hon. Friend agree that, to get Israel to the conference table--and, more important, to keep her there--the continuing application of United States pressure is absolutely essential?

Mr. Hurd : I am accepting no congratulations, but I agree with what my hon. Friend said about James Baker. The energy and persistence that he has shown in the face of occasional discouragement are not only worth praising but, as my hon. Friend said, absolutely essential. I have never supposed that other pressures--whether by Europe or by Arab countries--can be an adequate substitute for the sustained energetic interest of the United States in achieving a settlement.

Mr. Ernie Ross : Has the Foreign Secretary had a chance to study the report of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs that came out this morning? If he has--as I have--was he shocked to read, in part IV, which is headed "Obstacles to Regional Stability" that the Committee identified Islam as such an obstacle without in any way separating Islam from fundamentalism? Does he not think that, given that the report will be studied, that is at least a regrettable mistake, and that it will be compounded by the fact that there is no mention of Jewish fundamentalism which clearly threatens the area and the Israeli Government?

Mr. Hurd : I looked quickly at the report, but I did not happen on that particular phrase. It is not a matter for me. The hon. Gentleman will have to take it up with the Chairman and members of the Select Committee.

Mr. Dykes : May I thank my right hon. Friend for his robust efforts in trying to bring the Israelis and the Palestinians together at long last under a true peace treaty, which is now within their grasp and within the grasp of the whole international community? Does my right hon. Friend agree that money does, indeed, come into it, in the sense that the entire world community would, I am sure, favourably and positively consider the question of economic assistance to a near-eastern common market of all those countries if a true peace treaty were eventually attained?

Mr. Hurd : Yes, indeed, and of course the tragedy is that, although this is an area rich in resources, those resources are not properly used for the benefit of the people, not least because of the persistence of this poisonous dispute. Although particular help may be

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needed in particular matters, once the dispute is settled, the resources are there to make the area one of the most prosperous parts of the world.

Mr. Kaufman : I pay the warmest tribute to the efforts of Mr. James Baker, which have been indefatigable and determined and which have quite certainly brought about the greatest possibility of a middle eastern peace settlement since the 1940s, but does the right hon. Gentleman agree with me that it is important quickly to solve the outstanding issue of the representation of the Palestinians at the talks--because represented at the talks they must be? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with me that Mr. Shamir is right to draw attention to the enormous concessions and progress made by the Syrians and that it is now for Mr. Shamir to make a similar advance on behalf of Israel, because it is the state of Israel perhaps more than any other country or people in the region that stands to benefit from the ending of a dispute which has bedevilled and impoverished the region?

Mr. Hurd : The right hon. Gentleman puts it well. We are waiting for the considered response of the Government of Israel. The first response of the Prime Minister was encouraging, as the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner) and the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) have pointed out. We hope that that will develop into a positive response. Of course the Palestinians must be properly represented and a great deal of work has been devoted to overcoming that obstacle. The idea of having a joint Jordanian-Palestinian delegation seems to have gathered strength and support. We very much hope that that will happen. I also very much hope that it may be possible to suspend the building of settlements in the occupied territories at this time. There is no doubt that the building of settlements by Israel in the occupied territories constitutes a very considerable obstacle to peace.

New Zealand

13. Mr. Amos : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will meet the New Zealand Foreign Minister.

Mr. Hurd : We met in April and again in May in Washington. There are no present plans for a further meeting.

Mr. Amos : In view of the still close cultural, historical and political links between the two countries, will my right hon. Friend continue to ensure that New Zealand has open and fair access to the United Kingdom market and to other markets in the EEC? Will he also do his best to support New Zealand in the next round of the GATT talks so that our friends on the other side of the world know that we have not forgotten them?

Mr. Hurd : I am glad to say that my talks with my New Zealand colleague and the talks of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister with his New Zealand colleague show that our dealings and relations are in excellent shape. Of course New Zealand, perhaps as much as any other country, stands to benefit from an open European Community and from success in the GATT talks. That is one of the matters that we discuss most often with New Zealand and in which it has a wholly legitimate interest.

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Baltic States

14. Mr. Flynn : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what new initiatives he has recently taken to strengthen links between this country and the Baltic states.

Mr. Douglas Hogg : Since new authorities were elected in the Baltic republics our contacts with them have developed steadily. Baltic leaders have paid several visits to London over the past year. British diplomats have been frequent visitors to the Baltic capitals. We keep in touch with the Estonia and Lithuania information offices in London. We are already backing projects in the Baltic republics through the know-how fund. We hope to add to these and to expand cultural and educational contacts through the British Council.

Mr. Flynn : As the attacks on the Baltic states by the Soviet Union have continued relentlessly with attacks on border stations and the present attempt to impose on the Baltic states the sale of all union factories at ruinously disadvantageous prices to those states, will the Minister assure us that the increased aid to the Soviet Union under the G7 agreement will be conditional on respect for the legitimate aspirations of the Baltic states, one of which is full independence?

Mr. Hogg : The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. We have taken every opportunity, including the opportunity last week, to impress upon the Soviet Union the vital importance of getting down to meaningful negotiations with the Baltic republics. That is the only way forward and we will continue to stress that at every opportunity.

Mr. Wolfson : May I thank my hon. and learned Friend for his positive response on both points? May I encourage him to ensure that the Soviet Union is continually reminded of Britain's long-standing view about the illegitimate occupation of those lands and that we believe that their opportunity for economic growth will be much greater if they are allowed to pursue their own destinies?

Mr. Hogg : My hon. Friend is right to say that the British Government have never recognised the de jure integration of the three Baltic republics into the Soviet Union. He is also right to stress that it is absolutely vital that there are negotiations between the Baltic republics and the Soviet Government with a view to determining the future of those republics.

Middle East

15. Mr. Canavan : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had about solving the outstanding problems in the middle east ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Douglas Hogg : My right hon. Friend keeps in close touch with all concerned. He discussed those issues with our G7 colleagues during the recent economic summit. The political declaration issued by the summit contained a substantive passage on the middle east. He raised the peace process with the Israeli Foreign Minister on 18 July.

Mr. Canavan : Does the Minister agree that Mr. Shamir's latest response to the Baker initiative is a welcome indication that the Israeli Government are at last

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beginning to shift from their intransigent position? Will the Minister, along with the Secretary of State, try to use his influence to pursue the point that was made in the Foreign Affairs Select Committee report, which was published earlier today, that a comprehensive peace plan should be based on United Nations Security Council resolutions 242 and 338, which provide for the recognition and security of Isreal as well as the recognition of the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination?

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Mr. Hogg : I suppose that this is the first time that I have agreed with every single point that the hon. Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan) has made. I agree that Mr. Shamir's response is important. I agree, too, that any discussions must be on the basis of resolutions 242 and 338. I agree further that it is essential that the participating Arab states recognise the need to maintain the security and the sovereignty of the state of Israel.

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