House of Commons Hansard Debates for 14 Oct 1991

Mr. John Home Robertson (East Lothian) : I speak as a member of the Select Committee on Defence which, among other things, concluded that the Government are

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providing no "coherent strategic overview" and that they have made no attempt to provide a military rationale for what, to many of us, seems to be a rather crude Treasury carve-up. but, we should never underestimate the Government's ability to make a crisis out of a windfall. Since Scotland is, as ever, getting the worst deal under those circumstances, I make no apology for concentrating on the impact of Government defence policy in Scotland.

The Rosyth naval base is being savaged. Our high-tech defence industries are being left floundering in impossible circumstances, and now our Territorial Army's parachute regiment is being axed and five first class infantry regiments face amalgamation or suspension. Later this evening I shall join with other hon. Members from both sides of the House representing Scottish constituencies to present a petition signed by no fewer than 800,000 people in Scotland who oppose the cuts and amalgamations.

May I make a quick plea for the work force at GEC Ferranti Defence Systems Ltd., most of whom are in the Lothian and Edinburgh area. They have an unparalleled record in radar and avionics manufacture and it is not their fault that their management dug itself into a hole which led to the GEC takeover not so long ago. We are now left with a highly specialist division of GEC with very limited scope for diversification away from defence products. Two years ago there were 7,000 jobs ; now there are just 4,000, and a further 800 redundancies have just been announced.

That sort of high-tech, precision engineering firm is what Britain requires if we are to have any future in quality manufacturing and the Government should be actively helping diversification projects in that field. I welcome the fact that the Labour Opposition are committed to introducing a defence diversification agency. We should not be skimping on equipment for our slimmed-down armed forces. The Minister of State for Defence Procurement justified his recent decision not to go ahead with the purchase of Ferranti's FIN 1155 inertial navigation system for the new Challenger tank on the grounds that the system is "too sophisticated" and

"could not be justified on cost grounds".

If we ever send British tank crews into action again, we must always ensure that they have the best equipment that we can get for them. Therefore, I urge the Government to reconsider that decision, as well as the case for helping firms such as Ferranti to develop new products and alternative markets.

I turn to the important but vexed question of the future of the Royal Scots, the Gordons, the King's Own Scottish Borderers and the Queen's Own Highlanders. My personal feelings, as the son of a KOSB and as the Member of Parliament for many Royal Scots, are reinforced by my concern as a member of the Defence Select Committee that we must do justice to our armed forces by keeping their strength up to what is required to meet the tasks which we expect them to carry out. The disappearance of the threat of a massive land war in central Europe is a matter for great rejoicing and clearly justifies appropriate adjustment to military forces. However, it should not be taken as an excuse for Ministers to turn the British Army into a sort of military sweatshop which is intolerably overstretched. The Government and the Treasury must not be allowed to cut the strength of the Army beyond the reduction in the Army's allotted task. I can imagine the hue and cry if a Labour Government were to try to pull a fast one like this.

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I welcome the fact that my hon. Friend on the Opposition Front Bench, the Member for Clackmannan (Mr. O'Neill), has undertaken to base decisions on future force sizes on a proper assessment of the tasks of those forces in new world circumstances. But what are the Government doing? They have shed 14 battalion-scale commitments--fair enough--but they are cutting the number of battalions by 17. So the remaining 39 battalions will be left to take on the extra duties as best they can.

For example, troops allocated to specialist roles in the new NATO rapid reaction corps, which will demand a high state of readiness and complicated training, may be required to patrol the streets of Derry and Belfast at the same time. These infantry cuts go too far, and I agree with the Chairman of the Defence Select Committee about that. How have units been selected for amalgamation or suspension? I do not necessarily suggest that the fact that the Royal Scots is the oldest infantry regiment in the Army--it is the first of the line--should carry too much weight, although it is obviously important. However, it was a bit much to send it into action in very dangerous circumstances in Iraq last year when at the same time Ministry of Defence civil servants were planning to wind up the regiment and to destroy up to 2,000 Army jobs in Scotland. The military issue should be the need to build on the strength of regiments which have a proven record of recruiting and retaining first-class soldiers. What is the sense of retaining regiments, for example, in the Queen's division, which is 18.5 per cent. undermanned because of recruiting and retention problems, while sacrificing the Gordons, the Royal Scots, the KOSBs and the Queen's Own Highlanders, which, to all intents and purposes, are up to strength?

I have been trying hard to understand the motives of the Secretary of State for Defence in taking such irrational decisions. He has said repeatedly that the amalgamations were the decision of the Army Board following consultation with the regiments. We know that colonels of the Scottish division refused to submit to that game of Russian roulette--probably rightly so--which brings us back to the Army Board. I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannan managed to get that on record from the Secretary of State for Defence, who confirmed that the Army Board consists of all the Tory Ministers in the Ministry of Defence plus a senior civil servant and four generals. The generals are comprehensively outgunned by the politicians by five to four and it is contemptible humbug for the Secretary of State to suggest otherwise and to say that it was a purely military decision. It was not. It was a political decision and one that the Government will have to live with.

The decisions relating to the Scottish division are irrational. They can be explained only as malice on the part of the Government towards Scotland. Shortly they will receive a petition signed by 800, 000 people in Scotland who oppose the amalgamations and they ought to be aware of the strength of feeling throughout Scotland, even among what is left of the Tory party there. They have made a political decision, and if they stick to it they should not complain too much if they receive a political backlash as a consequence.

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7.57 pm

Mr. William Cash (Stafford) : I speak on behalf of my constituents in Stafford, where there is grave disquiet about the proposals for the amalgamation between the Staffordshire and Cheshire Regiments. The Director of Infantry laid down clear criteria that regiments would have to meet to avoid the possibility of amalgamation. They included such considerations as whether regiments would be compatible on a like-for-like basis, manpower sustainability and recruitment. On all the essential criteria, the Staffordshire Regiment should be retained in its integrity and should not be amalgamated.

During the Gulf war who was in the front line? The Staffords. Everyone with any experience of that war knows how brilliantly they performed. There is absolutely no justification for the regiment to be amalgamated in this round.

The Director of Infantry's guidelines clearly state that no regiment that has already been amalgamated--as the Staffordshire Regiment was in 1959-- should be re-amalgamated while there are regiments that have remained unamalgamated since 1945. Several regiments fall into that category and are not being amalgamated. I do not want to impute bad faith, but people can draw their own conclusions from what I have to say. There are those who were, and are, in a position to make these decisions whose connections with their own regiments have enabled those regiments to remain unamalgamated. It is proposed, however, that the Staffords be amalgamated with the Cheshires, when neither regiment wants that to happen.

It is vital for a proper system of kinship to be retained within the regimental system. Regiments that are expected, as the Staffords were, to go into the front line in the Gulf war and to engage in hand-to-hand fighting need to know that their members are part of a community, and are responding together. It is simply not on to imagine that there is a degree of compatibility between people who, generally speaking, come from the Merseyside area, and those who come from Staffordshire, the black country and the like. There is not sufficient compatibility to enable them to perform effectively in future. When the crunch comes, the Staffords will be needed in the infantry front line. In my view, a serious mistake has been made in the proposals.

On 4 January, the Foreign Secretary had a meeting with, among others, the French Defence Minister, Mr. Chevenement, who said that, if there was majority voting on a common defence policy, there would be no Gulf war. The plain fact was that the French were not prepared they had not the political will--to go to war in the Gulf. We know that the Germans declined to take part, for entirely spurious reasons ; we know that the Belgians were not prepared to supply us with ammunition.

Mr. Tim Devlin (Stockton, South) : Constitutionally, that was not possible.

Mr. Cash : My hon. Friend says that, for constitutional reasons, the Germans could not take part in the Gulf war. I have never heard such tosh in all my life. As has been admitted by the constitutional commission set up in Germany to look into the matter, there is no reason why the Germans should not engage in out-of-area activities in future ; and, indeed, there is no reason why they should not have engaged in such activities under articles 24 and 25 of

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their constitution. My hon. Friend should look up the details before making such remarks from a sedentary position.

The fact remains that we in Britain were there, in the Gulf. What worries me about the proposals is that, under "Options for Change", it may be impossible for us to come up with the same degree of effective action if we are called upon, in unexpected circumstances, to perform the role that we had to perform then. At the heart of that role is the infantry. It is essential not only to maintain the effectiveness of the infantry regiments as a whole--and we have heard much, and will hear more, about whether there are enough battalions of infantry regiments--but the effectiveness of the Deserts Rats, who are, in their turn, at the heart of those regiments. The Staffords have performed brilliantly in the past, and they should be allowed to continue as a regiment on their own terms in the future.

According to The Sunday Telegraph of 6 October, the Ministry of Defence, when asked about the Anglo-Italian proposals, said : "Britain's smaller, more flexible forces emerging from the Options for Change defence review ideally fitted the plan."

For me, that raises serious questions. We have seen the Dutch proposals that came before the intergovernmental conferences recently. Those proposals would have moved us further and further towards a common defence policy ; but do not let us imagine that the same provisions are not also included in the Luxembourg proposals. The fact remains that what has been done constitutes a

rationalisation of our own Army plans to fit in with a future common defence policy in Europe, which will not work.

The Anglo-Italian declaration clearly states that the European reaction force would be autonomous, separate from the NATO structure, and would have its own

"peacetime planning cell to develop contingency plans and organise exercises".

The fact remains that at the heart of "Options for Change" is a gearing towards a common defence policy in Europe, which will not work.

It is fundamental to the future security and defence of this country that we retain not only our own effective infantry regiments but, within those regiments, the Staffords, with their separate identity. Furthermore, it is essential that we make certain--in terms of this country's future military commitment--that we do not allow ourselves to be drawn into a European defence policy that will not work. It did not work in the Gulf ; it will not work if there is any overspill from Yugoslavia. Our entire future military and defence policy must not be subordinated and hijacked by people like Mr. Delors, who are quoted as saying that they hope for

"a full-blooded European defence identity, with Washington excluded".

We must retain our NATO connection. We must make sure that the European alliance is combined with an Atlantic alliance, and we must make sure that the best regiments are retained in their integrity. That includes the Staffords.

8.5 pm

Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe and Nantwich) : I have been here long enough not always to subscribe to the theory of deliberate conspiracy in political decisions. I believe that, occasionally, the present Government have a tremendous ability simply to get into a chaotic situation--not necessarily because of any evil intent, but because

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they just happen to be magnificently incompetent. I think that we should give the Government sufficient credit for their incompetence ; I am convinced that the decisions that have been made about the regiments owe themselves to exactly that.

There is an historical reason why the British Army operates so well : the traditional involvement of fighting units with their own backgrounds. Although I find myself in disagreement with the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash), it is true that there are ethnic differences between Cheshire and Staffordshire. Those differences are very clear.

Following the tremendous roar of anguish that issued from the people of Cheshire at the suggestion that, somehow or other, they should lose their traditional Army identity, it has become clear that what concerns them is this. In times of war and stress, it is always much safer to operate within, and surrounded by, a body of people who understand one's problems and with whom one identifies closely. The Cheshires have a long and honourable tradition, and have been able to recruit members because of that --because they were viewed as a group of men and women with a specific character, arising from the area in which they were born, an area that I have the honour to represent. My real fear, however, is that, as our forces become more and more technically adept--as more and more is spent on high- tech weapons--the confidence that they need to feel will not be there. The people who operate such weapons must have two basic kinds of confidence : confidence in those who command them, the way in which the weapons are being used and the reason for which they are being used, and confidence in the personalities of those who make decisions at Ministry of Defence level.

I am ashamed to say that the lack of such confidence is now very clear. People do not believe that the decision to amalgamate the regiments has been made on the basis of need ; they do not believe that it is connected with a lack of expertise, or with putting extra money into high-tech equipment. They believe that a political decision was made at the top, which then had to be matched up with Britain's commitments across the world. That is the wrong way for management decisions to be taken. No organisation can operate successfully if the people within it have no faith in those who take the decisions, or if our commitments, as a democratic society, do not match the needs and the use of Army units. That is what happened on this occasion.

I have had time throughout my life to learn the lesson that unfortunately we need a professional and highly trained and committed Army. No man or woman will give of their best if they are eternally worried about the way in which Governments, and above all Parliaments, treat them and their families. We have seen in our surgeries what happens to those who are forced out of the forces without any clear commitment having been given to them regarding housing or employment. This amalgamation alone would result in 500 redundancies within the Cheshires. Those people know that no one will rehouse them, or find them alternative jobs, or give them the emotional claptrap support that they have been given in the past : "We need you when there is a war ; we need you when there is a situation like the Gulf." Just try to get the support of the same authorities when, for any reason, people are forced out of the professional Army.

It is hypocrisy of the deepest hue to pretend that, somehow or other, one can ask people to make what

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ultimately may be the final sacrifice--I saw at close quarters what happened to many young people who went to the Gulf and found it difficult to deal with their return to civilian life--if they feel that to the Ministry of Defence they are no more than pawns on a board, to be swept aside when occasion demands--not even pawns in a very intelligent game of chess.

It must be a long time since the Secretary of State for Defence has had to face not just the anger but the contempt of Members of Parliament on both sides of the House. I hope that he will rapidly reconsider the decision that he has taken. Above all, I hope that he will have enough confidence to change his mind. Only then shall we believe that he is fit to hold his present office.

8.11 pm

Sir Peter Blaker (Blackpool, South) : I wish to make three points, the first of which concerns many constituencies in the north-west of England. The future of the military aircraft division of British Aerospace is a matter of very great concern to all my Conservative colleagues in the area, among whom I include my hon. Friends the Members for Fylde (Mr. Jack) and for South Ribble (Mr. Atkins) who are unable to take part in the debate because they are junior Ministers. However, they have been extremely active, as have the rest of us, in pursuing the interests of British Aerospace. In the next few days, we are to meet my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence to discuss the future of the company. We have been in touch with the management and the trade union leaders. We shall persist in our efforts to support the company. I wish that I could say that there was more evidence of a similar commitment to British Aerospace from Labour Members of Parliament in the area.

Not long ago British Aerospace announced 3,000 job losses as a result of the closure of the Strand road plant in Preston. My colleagues and I believe that it is important that everything should be done to keep in Lancashire the skilled men and women who will lose their jobs. We do not want them to leave Lancashire for other parts of the country. We are glad that British Aerospace has commissioned an independent company to concern itself with the retraining, resettlement and training for self-employment of those who are going to lose their jobs.

We are interested, of course, not only in those who will lose their jobs but in the 11,000 who will continue to be employed by British Aerospace's military aircraft division in Lancashire. I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure me about its future. In particular, I hope that he will be able to say something about the prospect of future orders for Tornado aircraft and about future orders for the Hawk aircraft, for which there has recently been a welcome new order. It is a very successful aircraft in overseas markets. I hope that he will also say something about the prospects for a mid-life update of the Tornado and in particular about our continued commitment to the European fighter aircraft. As a former Army Minister and as a former Minister for the Armed Forces, the Army amalgamations and reductions are a matter of deep interest to me. Nobody would say that I have been soft on defence. I am a former infantryman--what is more, in a Scottish regiment. Indeed, it was a Canadian Scottish regiment. Anybody who knows Canada knows that a Canadian Scottish regiment is equally as Scottish as a Scottish-Scottish regiment. Therefore, I understand

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particularly closely the concern and dismay of members of regiments that are to be amalgamated, particularly the members of Scottish regiments. If there is to be a rethink about the number of regiments that are to be maintained, I hope that the Government will bear the Scottish regiments particularly in mind.

I do not want to enter the debate about the exact number of battalions that should be retained. I thought that the Secretary of State made some powerful arguments in favour of the number that he has chosen. However, I want to try to put the question into perspective. I believe that we are at a major turning point in history. I do not mean simply the history of the second part of the 20th century ; I mean the history of the last 200 years. I am not sure that everyone who has spoken in the debate has fully perceived the magnitude of the international changes that we are seeing, with the disappearance of the Soviet Union and the democratisation of eastern Europe.

These changes are at least as great as those that occurred at the end of the first world war and the second world war when there had to be a massive reconstruction of the armed forces. Every regiment in the British Army-- certainly the infantry regiments--is the product of one or more amalgamations. Yet morale is high. I believe that it has never been higher.

Now we face the end of another war, the cold war, in which we have been successful. The consequence of that will certainly be turbulence in Europe, but hostility will not be directed particularly at the west. There will be turbulence inside what was the Soviet Union and perhaps inside the countries of eastern Europe, but the threat to the west from the east has been massively reduced. Therefore, it would be indefensible not to make substantial reductions in defence, in financial terms. It would also be indefensible if we adopted the alternative course, which has been suggested, of keeping the same number of regiments and reducing the numbers in each. Such an alternative, if adopted, would be indefensible militarily. My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash) and the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody)--who, sadly, has left the Chamber--made the point that it is essential that people who fight in the same infantry regiment should come from the same part of the world. My experience does not demonstrate that. I had the experience in the Canadian army of being in a regiment that was disbanded. We were fully up to strength. We had trained together for 15 months. We expected to go to France together. Suddenly we were disbanded. We were sent as individuals to different units of the Canadian army. What is interesting is that I do not think that anyone suggested that those who went to join other regiments fought any less well than those who had been members of those regiments for a very long time. We absorbed the traditions of the regiments that we joined, just like those who had been members of those regiments for several years. While we regret the need for these amalgamations, we should be wrong to imagine that they are going to affect the fighting quality of our infantry regiments.

My third point relates to Trident. I wholeheartedly support the emphasis that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State puts on the retention of Trident and on retaining four boats. I believe that we need to have other

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sub-strategic nuclear weapons, too. There will be other nuclear threats from around the world for which those weapons would be more appropriate than Trident.

Conservative policy on nuclear weapons is clear. Despite all the tergiversations of the Labour party, its policy is still unclear. Its mental and verbal gymnastics in the past year have been such that its intention to retain nuclear weapons cannot be trusted. It is not enough simply to have nuclear weapons--one must be seen to have the will to use them if necessary. I cannot believe that, with all the amazing changes in Labour policy and the different votes at the Labour party's conferences, a Labour Government's willingness to use nuclear weapons if necessary would carry credibility with a potential opponent.

We must have four Trident boats and a sub-strategic nuclear capability.

8.20 pm

Mr. Michael J. Martin (Glasgow, Springburn) : I was interested to hear the experience of the right hon. Member for Blackpool, South (Sir P. Blaker) with the Canadian Scottish regiments.

The point that many Scottish Members want to make is that for hundreds of years Governments have encouraged family and city ties with regiments. Three of the sons of my constituent, Mrs. Jean Macey, who is a delegate to the local constituency Labour party, are members of the Gordon Highlanders and served in the Gulf. It was not easy for me to tell her of the House's decision to send that regiment and many others to the Gulf. It is not easy to listen to a Minister telling us that everything is fine because we are living at peace with the Russians when he knows full well that the Gulf and the Falklands were unexpected. Who knows what is around the corner?

It is right and fitting for Scottish Members to say that Scotland has not done well from these amalgamations. The Minister knows that the Queen's Own Highlanders is an amalgamation of the Seaforth Highlanders and the Cameron Highlanders and that the King's Own Scottish Borderers, the Royal Scots and the Gordon Highlanders have a fine tradition.

Scotland is losing not only regiments but a battalion of the Scots Guards. It is all very well to speak of suspended animation, but what does that mean? It means that the battalion will disappear. Pals of mine who were in the cadets and TA with me joined the 4th Royal Tank Regiment because its recruiting slogan was, "Join the 4th Royal Tank Regiment, it is Scotland's Tank Regiment." On 23 July, the Minister announced that the tank regiments must amalgamate. Scotland's tank regiment will disappear.

We were glad that the medical young men and women of the Territorial Army were prepared to leave their civilian jobs and go to the Gulf to tend to the sick and wounded. Some of them faced difficulties. One of my constituents received letters from the electricity board threatening to cut off her electricity while she was serving this country in the Gulf. Have we forgotten what the TA was prepared to do?

We had voluntary regiments long before we had professional regiments. The Minister knows full well that he does not have to provide housing for their members. He has to pay them only when they turn up at the weekends

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and for drills. He knows that they are heavily committed and that in many inner-city areas TA regiments give up much time to train cadets and to get youngsters out at the weekends to give them some pride in themselves and to teach them some discipline. It is a source of comfort to parents that they are prepared to do that.

I say to those who do not believe in the armed services that we get a dividend from the training that we give our soldiers, because when many of them leave the forces they join the police and security firms and protect our property. The training that is given to bandsmen is such that many of our young service men have become accomplished musicians in civvy street.

The Minister should think again. It is all very well for him to say that he has made no decision about the Territorial Army, but Scottish Members have received letters from serving members of the 15th Parachute Regiment. We have high regard for the Territorial Army and for the Parachute Regiment. The Minister knows that its selection process is such that one has to be fitter than the average person to be selected for it. It is a pity that, if the Minister gets his way, people from north of Liverpool will not have an opportunity to join that regiment.

Many young men, and now women because of the laws on discrimination, join the Territorial Army because they do not want to take the jump into the Regulars but want to find out what the Army is like. Often the TA is used as a recruiting force for the Regular Army. We shall lose that if the Minister has his way. The Scottish regiments have been hit badly, and I plead with the Government to think again. 8.26 pm

Sir Hector Monro (Dumfries) : The hon. Member for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin) spoke much good sense and I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister listened to him.

I have been as strong a supporter as anyone of Conservative defence policy in the past 27 years and have warmly paid tribute to the Royal Air Force, the Royal Navy and Army for their outstanding work in the Gulf, the Falklands and all over the world. I want to pay a further personal tribute to my old close friend and everybody's colleague, Alick Buchanan-Smith. He was a wonderful constituency Member, whether the issue was farming, fishing, education or health. His last campaign was to save the Gordon Highlanders. To the last day of his life, he was asking how the campaign was going. Were he alive, he would be with us this evening.

Fifteen months ago, I begged my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence to move slowly until the world settled down from turmoil and before he reached final conclusions on "Options for Change". Since then, we have had the Gulf war and upheaval in Russia and eastern Europe. If ever there were a time for caution and to think again, this is it.

We all want the peace dividend, and I made it clear that I accept that the planned reduction in defence expenditure is essential, but the question is how is that to be achieved? I accept that the main threat has diminished, but it has not disappeared altogether. It is an interesting statistic that since 1945 there have been 37 clasps to the general service medal that so many of our service people wear proudly. None of those bars was awarded for action involving

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Russia or eastern bloc countries. That shows how frequently our service men have been deployed around the world in war- time conditions.

I hope that the savings that we have made over the past month or two on tactical nuclear weapons will provide the additional resources that we require for the infantry. The cut in the number of battalions from 55 to 38 is far too great because our commitment has remained much the same. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was over-optimistic in his view of foreign affairs and in thinking that we could make a substantial reduction in our commitment. The consensus of the staff college, the national defence college and many defence experts is that a force of 116,000 is too small. We should aim for perhaps 120,000, to ease the effect in the coming months of controversial regimental amalgamations.

I welcome the concept of a rapid reaction corps in NATO. Will the battalions that are tied into the RRC be available for service in Northern Ireland? That is a crucial part of the equation. In effect, it takes a battalion one year to train, to serve in Northern Ireland and to retrain to fulfil its original role.

Hon. Members on both sides of the House have been involved in the presentation of a petition with 800,000 signatures showing how strongly the Scottish people feel about retaining the four Scottish regiments that have been told to amalgamate. Those signatories are a large proportion of the adult population of Scotland. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will bear in mind that, if democracy means anything, he must listen carefully to the clear views of such an enormous number of people. Many people would congratulate Lieutenant-General Sir John MacMillan and his colleagues on their wonderful campaign to collect so many signatures in such a short time.

The Army Board has made the decision ; Ministers must take the responsibility. The decision has been taken without the agreement of the colonels or colonels-in-chief of the regiments. It is wrong for the Ministry of Defence to imply in the letters that it has been sending to my constituents, and no doubt to others, that the colonels were consulted and agreed with the decision. My right hon. and hon. Friends have not taken account of the repercussions of their decisions on Scotland. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State believes that the Army wants a quick decision, but I believe that it really wants us to have a Conservative Government after the general election, or it will face much more massive cuts under Labour. Why is Scotland in uproar? There are 800,000 signatures on the petition. Does my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State appreciate that that means that five of the eight infantry regiments recruiting in Scotland are affected, including--as the hon. Member for Springburn said--the Scots Guards. That means four of the seven Scottish Division infantry battalions, yet the guidelines laid down by the Director of Infantry and confirmed by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in the House showed that the three criteria would be recruitment, retention-- including training--and the fact that, if a regiment had been amalgamated previously, it would not be amalgamated again. All three guidelines seem to have been breached in the dealings with the Scottish Division. Does my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State

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appreciate that 35 Army battalions are under- establishment by 70 or more men, yet none of those battalions is in the Scottish Division? That shows the strength of recruiting and retention in Scotland. I have the highest regard for the King's Division, our immediate neighbours across the border. Its members are as well-recruited and retained as members of the Scottish Division, yet none of the English infantry battalions has been affected by amalgamation or "Options for Change". It is therefore reasonable for Scotland to say, "Is this fair to us?" We deserve an answer.

I hope that I will not be too unpopular if I mention the Gurkhas. They are great fighting soldiers and have a wonderful tradition. During the first world war, my father was seriously wounded while he was with the Gurkhas. How can Gurkha battalions be retained while British battalions are disbanded or amalgamated? That is a difficult equation for any hon. Member to accept.

The decision will have economic repercussions in Scotland. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will bear in mind the effect on housing of so many soldiers leaving the Army. Local authority housing in Scotland is hard to come by and some local authorities show little sympathy for soldiers leaving the Army. We must have from Ministers an explanation of the reason for the Army Board's decisions. The oldest regiment in the Army, the Royal Scots--the First Foot--has not been told why it was chosen. The King's Own Scottish Borderers, which is more than 300 years old, has not heard a word about why it has been affected. The Gordon Highlanders and the Queen's Own Highlanders, which are more than 200 years old, have not been told why. The officers and men of those battalions need to know why they have been singled out for amalgamation.

I have kept clear of emotion and arguments about tradition and excellence because I believe that the regiments have a good case on military grounds alone. The Army Board must explain the position. I do not see this as a security or secrecy issue or as one that should be kept from the regiments. I ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to rethink and to find a positive way forward. In that way, we shall reach a reasonable solution. I ask him to bear in mind the last line of a successful song at Murrayfield and "Tae think again". 8.36 pm

Mr. Frank Cook (Stockton, North) : It is particularly galling to have to confine one's remarks to 10 minutes when the range of perspectives is so numerous. I have taken part in many defence debates and been disappointed at the knee-jerk and disjointed nature of such exchanges and at the relentlessly partisan arguments issuing from the Mexican stand-off character of the cold war concept of mutually assured destruction and flexible response.

Hope for an improvement in the exchanges sprang from the thaw in east-west relations. Sadly, it seems that only the Opposition parties are prepared to reach out realistically for a constructive response to the changing scenario resulting from the Gorbachev-Reagan and Gorbachev-Bush initiatives. That is not only sad but dangerous. "Options for Change" was placed on the table without any clear declaration of our defence requirements in the

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light of existing and future foreign relations and

responsibilities. The 38 infantry battalions which the Secretary of State seems to feel are adequate are unjustifiable if we take into account our total commitments in Northern Ireland and central Europe and our existing outposts in Belize, Brunei, Hong Kong, Korea and the like. It is a figure plucked from the air--I suspect in some Treasury inner sanctum. The size of the manpower requirement retained should surely be based on the levels of operational need to meet the demands placed on our forces by our declared foreign policy and perhaps, in some cases, undeclared needs.

Independent and informed opinion on the adequacy of the Government's proposals seems unanimous in the view that they just will not do. Following the attempted coup in the Soviet Union and in the light of the potential bushfire in Yugoslavia and the ever-present threat of international terrorism, such comments cannot go unheeded. The only sensible action is to review the Government's decision, which is clearly wrong.

It does not make sense to argue that the defence budget should be reduced to the average budget of our European allies. How does it make sense to equate our levels of defence spending with those of countries such as Norway or Denmark? We ask our forces to bear a different burden of responsibility and a wider range of tasks in a broader spectrum of an operational theatre. The level of our commitment at home and abroad forbids the application of such easy arithmetical solutions. Our newly accepted role as lead nation in the recently conceived rapid deployment force adds emphasis to the invalidity of such a simplistic argument.

If the Government are determined to show proof positive of the peace dividend to improve the Conservative party's polling position, as a unilateral nuclear disarmer I suggest that they apply their axe to a resource that is clearly not justifiable, and that is our so-called independent nuclear deterrent. The only useful reason for having the deterrent, as Nye Bevan implied, is to provide us with a place at the disarmament conference table.

The Soviet arms reduction team would gladly put our weapons reduction to use in justifying to its own military further disarmament on its part. Instead of approaching reduction and assessment in such a clinical fashion, we have hysterical exchanges on the frantic and frankly trivial arguments over regimental identity and cap badging. Many of these arguments are frankly claptrap. Units of the Navy and Air Force manage to operate most effectively without regional identity, as do the various corps of the Army, including the medical, engineers and transport corps. Within the Royal Marines' three brigades there are three commando forces, which are designated 40, 42 and 45. Their personnel are triple drafted according to unit requirements, so nourishing individual training and the need for promotion potential. Thereby the career cul-de-sac is avoided and the operational effectiveness of the units as active forces is consequently enhanced by the flexibility that ensues. Who will try to convince me that the Royal Marines is a force that does not function effectively, despite the sniggering on the Government Front Bench?

The same is true of our airborne forces. If we consider that regional or regimental identities are worth preserving--in historical, sentimental or emotional terms that may be so, and clearly the petition that has been presented suggests that that is so--that argument would be more

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properly applied to the units that we hold in reserve, the Territorial Army. I enter a plea that we preserve the identity of the Durham Light Infantry within the territorial units in the north-east. It is-- [Interruption.] I am talking about our reserve units. It is sad that some Conservative Members seem to be unaware of the nature of the units to which I am referring. The retention of such identity for a reserve unit within a geographical region could be justified. That is what is commonly called the qualification.

It is ironic that such a case is easy to make when we consider the questionable decision to cut both companies of the Parachute Regiment in the north-east, thereby leaving that part of the country and Scotland without provision for airborne training. Many young men--many of them presently unemployed--on Teesside at Norton and on Tyneside and at Gateshead will be bitterly disappointed and not a little disillusioned by such a cynical measure.

I urge the Secretary of State to think again, and I hope that on this occasion he will respond to my argument. I ask for a specific response. During the most recent Army debate I posed a question and the Secretary of State promised to consider my remarks. I still await his reaction. My question concerned the staff at the military corrective training centre at Colchester, who will find themselves soaked up into the Adjutant-General corps, together with the Royal Military Police. I am sure that the House will recognise that that would be an unfortunate juxtaposition. Surely the respective staffs should be kept apart, or are we next to consider joining the police and the prison service? That would be just as lunatic a proposal. Such a proposal would be considered mad in civilian life, so why should it be good sense in a military context?

The Government's proposals have been hastily cobbled. They are ill- conceived, badly developed and poorly presented. If the House shows sense when the Division takes place tomorrow evening, the Secretary of State will be sentenced to be confined to barracks and will be kept on report until he comes up with more sensible proposals that are in line with our total requirements, which are based on defence and foreign policy demands. In other words, if there are options for change, for pity's sake let us know what they are, let us consider them and let us debate them rationally.

8.44 pm

Mr. Jerry Wiggin (Weston-super-Mare) : I fully appreciate Ministers' difficulties in implementing the machinery of government. I must start, however, by expressing my strong concern about the way in which the Government are proceeding with material changes in the size, shape and structure of our armed forces without first seeking the approval of the House.

The size of the Royal Navy was determined and announced in July. The size of the Army and the changes that will take place within it were published shortly afterwards. The fate of the Royal Air Force was resolved at the beginning of July. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State reminded the House, at least three squadrons have already been disbanded. Redundancy terms were announced in August. There can be no doubt that the Gulf war held up announcements for the period of the conflict, but as soon as that inconvenience was over the

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programme returned to top gear. It is not unprecedented to ignore this place, but to do so blatantly on such important matters is to be strongly regretted.

Had anyone suggested 15 months ago that the British armed forces were about to embark on the largest expeditionary force since the second world war, I have no doubt that his sanity would have been questioned. But was the fall of communism, along with the August coup and civil war in Yugoslavia, predicted by our military planners? It is the unexpected for which we have to be ready. The only good thing that can be said about Saddam Hussein is that he reminded us of that fact. Why do we never learn?

Despite all the events that have taken place and the current instability in large parts of Europe, the Ministry of Defence has not even paused in considering "Options for Change". Driven along by the Treasury--I find it ludicrous to expect anyone to believe that the Treasury is not the driving force behind the proposed changes--the Ministry has served up the options in dribs and drabs in the hope that no one will notice the global effect on our defence capabilities.

When the Russian coup took place, many of my constituents telephoned me immediately and asked, "Can we hold the cuts in defence? Why are our memories so short? Why are our Ministers so confident that they can guarantee no unforeseen emergency? How can they conduct this exercise and at the same time promise that our defences are adequate? They cannot do so and they should not be doing so."

I have, of course, heard the Government's song. It is said that, because of the changes in Europe, the threat to our safety has been much reduced and that there has, therefore, to be a peace dividend. The serious flaw in the argument is the basic assumption that we ever had sufficient forces to counter the then threat. I believe that the current level of expenditure is close to the bare minimum to deal with whatever unknown crisis may arise. I accept, however, that that will mean some reduction in size and a change in shape.

The Gulf enterprise was a massive success and all involved deserve the warmest gratitude and congratulation from the nation. By world war standards, the force size would have been measured at one division. I recognise that such a comparison shows clearly the amazing multiplier of modern technology, but in the same breath I have to observe that all three services were stretched to the limit in providing even that size of force so far from home.

I was surprised to hear my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State say that one of the lessons from the Gulf was the importance of logistics. I thought that every historian knew that that had been the case since Caesar wrote the history of the Gallic wars. The fact remains that logistics are crucial. Our forces must have a substantial enhancement in their helicopter capacity as a matter of priority. There was a great shortage of helicopters in the Gulf. Although only approximately one fifth of the British Army was deployed, half of all the RAF support helicopters were in use and they were not adequate and had to be supplemented by 18 Sea Kings, normally in use by the Royal Marines. We were short of helicopters in the Falklands and, 10 years later, nothing material has been done. My right hon. Friend the Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger), when Secretary of State, announced that he would buy 25 utility EH101s for the RAF to support the

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