House of Commons Hansard Debates for 14 Oct 1991

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Army. Where are those helicopters, and why were they never ordered? They would have been worth their weight in gold in the Gulf, and I am very distressed to see today, in the Government's reply to the Select Committee's seventh report--at paragraph 18--that they are still prevaricating, still studying and still indecisive on this vital matter.

There were few, if any, operational helicopters left in Germany while the Gulf conflict was on. It is well known that the air mobile brigade has no air mobility, and the continuing error in spending more and more money on armoured vehicles is reminiscent of the reluctance of the cavalry to give up its horses at the end of the first world war.

After 10 years or more of making such pleas, I despair of the way in which Ministers are overridden by the military. As to attack helicopters, one has only to point to the Americans to recognise that their appreciation of the modern battlefield has been infinitely superior to our own, and I am told that the flexibility, speed and power of the Apaches in action was awesome.

The Army still seems quite unable to decide its philosophy for mobility in the battlefield in the 1990s and, by default, we are still left with an organisation that owes more to second world war thinking than to a proper appreciation of the new factors that make the battlefield a very different place nearly 50 years later. The announcement of a cut of nearly one quarter in the strength of the British Army by way of answer to an oral question was in itself a revelation of the Government's attitude to these matters, but on that occasion I was grateful for the opportunity to ask a supplementary question on the future of the Territorial Army and I have to say that I received a friendly answer. I was delighted to hear the speech of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin). I have been attending debates such as this for many years and I do not remember a speech from a retired territorial on the Opposition Benches. The hon. Gentleman had many sensible things to say.

At this time, there seems an overwhelming argument--not addressed this afternoon--for enhancing the Territorial Army and, indeed, all the reserves, and, whatever numbers may be proposed, for ensuring that it receives at least the same, if not more, in real terms as it receives at present. It was my privilege when at the Ministry of Defence to produce a programme for the expansion of the TA, although I readily acknowledge that at no time has the TA achieved the numbers that we then proposed, largely because of very high wastage. I therefore have some sympathy for the decision to set the numbers at a realistic figure, but I am far from convinced that everything possible has been done to recruit more fully and increase retention. I am in no doubt that, if the Regular Army were responsible for TA recruiting--by "responsible", I mean both physically and financially--some substantial measures would be taken to improve retention and make the training more attractive. I was suspicious of the figure produced earlier this afternoon--60,000 or

thereabouts--remembering that, when I first joined the TA, it was over 130,000 strong.

I particularly hope that there will be a firm commitment to all our reserve forces, and I find it appalling to learn that

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training restrictions and other economies are yet again being imposed on these unfortunate volunteers at a time when it is so vital to improve morale and encourage recruiting for the future. I expect and hope for an early announcement on the future shape of the reserve, and I find it wrong that, despite all the talk about a single Army and the one-Army concept, it is months after the Army's future has been debated and announced before the Government have even given proper and full thought to the future of the Territorial Army. It comes as no great pleasure to me to tell my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench that, after loyally supporting the Conservative party's defence policies in the House for 22 years, I shall find myself unable to do so tomorrow night.

8.53 pm

Mr. Bruce George (Walsall, North) : The remarks that we have just heard from the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Wiggin), a former junior defence Minister, need to be taken very seriously. I find myself in the somewhat embarrassing position of being wholeheartedly in favour of the defence policies that have been emerging from the Opposition Benches over the past few months. Many people have delivered lectures to us over the years--in some cases, deservedly--but, in general, it must be accepted that the Labour party has now returned to the principles that it has espoused for most of its history. To argue that the Labour party must be judged simply on the basis of the 1980s is to do less than justice to people such as Ernie Bevin and Clem Attlee and to many people in the Labour movement who have alway regarded defence as the essential component of any country's, and any political party's, policies. I hope that we shall be judged on the basis of our party's contribution from the second world war to the present and not simply during a period that I would regard as something of an aberration.

There is now much more agreement on security issues, and that is warmly welcomed. However, as the Select Committee on Defence pointed out, the defence White Paper is seriously deficient. It has not provided a strategic rationale for the decisions that are being made, and I am afraid that the Secretary of State's addendum to the security rationale was rather unsatisfactory. The Defence Committee pointed to another deficiency of the White Paper : it does not give a proper financial rationale for what is proposed. The view of the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare, a former Defence Minister, that perhaps public procurement has not been adequate is not surprising because the Government were spending the peace dividend before it was available to be spent. Given declining defence expenditure since 1985, it is not difficult to understand why the Government have been totally unable to match commitments and resources. And with defence expenditure falling to the estimated 1993-94 level of 3.4 per cent., supporters of CND will be placed in something of a dilemma as to which party to support in the months that lie ahead.

The strategic rationale for the Government's policy is inadequate. The first part of the Secretary of State's speech appeared to suggest that there was no threat at all. Whoever wrote the second part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, however, saw that there was a threat. Although I am delighted that communism has been

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expunged from eastern Europe and the Soviet Union and that the Soviet military has been pushed further back, giving us more and more warning time, I ask hon. Members to consider the debit side of the argument : the Soviet--or Russian--military will still be that of a super-power. I spoke at a conference last week in Washington and was preceded by Colin Powell, who said that Russia still has the capability of destroying the western world in 30 minutes. What happens if that country, which looks increasingly like the Weimar republic, collapses in failure? Will some house painter in Russia regard himself as the man on horseback? That is eminently possible. There are now four or five nuclear powers deriving from what was the Soviet Union. We have not even begun to consider the implications of the story that appeared in the press a couple of days ago to the effect that dictatorships in the middle and far east may be scouring the Soviet Union for unemployed or disenchanted nuclear scientists and offering them big bucks to go to their countries.

By the turn of the century, we could have 20 nuclear powers in the world. The possible disintegration of the Soviet Union, the existence of all those nuclear powers and the possible--although, it is to be hoped, unlikely-- resurgence of militarism should surely give the Government grounds for being rather more prudent than they are being at present. The right hon. Member for Blackpool, South (Sir P. Blaker) treated us to a little lecture on history, and talked about a sea change. We have heard such talk before. Take the treaty of Utrecht in 1713 and, before that, the treaty of Westphalia. We had the treaties of Vienna and Versailles. We had Yalta and, a year ago, the treaty of Paris. All of them supposedly ushered in new eras. All those treaty-makers said that the world had changed. They said that we were moving to a new world and that a new order had been created. We should consider the statistics about wars that occurred after those epoch-making treaties. The world was damned by conflict after those treaties.

Are we absolutely certain that this new order will be peaceful? It is said that there are 30 wars around the world today. The absence of super-power conflict will accelerate regional conflict, not diminish it. I hope that we are moving to an era about which the Government's perception is correct. However, I am not certain that we have moved into that period yet.

The Soviet Union is still building 10 submarines a year. In two years of continuous production, it will produce more than the Royal Navy will possess. The Royal Navy's capability will be reduced from 28 to 16.

Why are we reducing our Army to 116,000, a point at which it will be unable to meet its domestic commitments? The soldiers in the rapid reaction force are supposed to be trained to a high degree of professionalism, but they will be spending much of their time in Northern Ireland. In order to eke out our infantry battalions, soldiers will be sent to Northern Ireland who are not trained to a level commensurate with fighting a skilled force such as the IRA. What will the Minister or a commanding officer write to the parents of a soldier in a tank regiment who has been given a little extra training and then sent off to bandit country? Is he to write, "I'm sorry your son died. He wasn't quite up to the task"? I very much fear that that might happen.

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I have a parochial point to make. My constituency in the west midlands is no longer in Staffordshire. However, the Staffordshire regiment recruits heavily from my area. I disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton, North (Mr. Cook) : there is an enormous sense of pride in a local regiment and a greater efficiency can accrue from one. I am aware of the campaigns that have been mounted about the Staffordshire and Cheshire regiments. As someone pointed out to me today, the liaison between a Staffordshire bull terrier and a Cheshire cat is likely to produce something of an aberration. I hope that the Government will reconsider. I would not defend a Staffordshire regiment simply on the criterion of history. I would defend it and want to see it survive because it is efficient, recruits well and is needed for the foreseeable future.

Perhaps in the next five or 10 years the cuts that the Government have announced will appear to have been inadequate. Perhaps we are moving to a new dawn in history when we will need to "beat swords into plowshares" and Isaiah, who did not know much about the concept of defence conversion, may be proved to be right. However, until the situation is clearer, we should cut, but do it prudently. I urgently request the Government to give the matter more consideration than has hitherto been presented to us in the House.

There is a greater defence consensus and I welcome all that is happening in the positive side of international relations. However, history and experience should teach us that sometimes new dawns fail to be achieved. We should be rather more careful than the Government are being with regard to this issue.

9.1 pm

Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury) : It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George), who expressed robust and interesting views. Sadly, his views are not shared by Labour Front-Bench spokesmen, and certainly not by the Labour party leader, who is a former member of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. We must not forget that we have a double responsibility to preserve the defence of this country. We are the Government of the day and the Conservative party remains the only political party in Britain which is firmly convinced about the importance of defence, both nuclear and conventional.

I want to tackle two themes today, the first of which is the infantry problem. I am sure that we can solve that problem by an attack on the MoD's overheads. The second theme is the need for a more imaginative approach to our reserves.

I am sure that all Conservative Members welcome the MoD's cornering of the rapid reaction corps concept for the British Army. That concept is exciting, but before a concept can become a reality certain preconditions must be met. Friends of mine in the Army have said again and again that it is simply not realistic to believe that we can have a rapid reaction corps if the proportion of the infantry that is away from its duties in that corps, serving in, training for or recovering from Ulster, is even higher than it already is in the British Army of the Rhine.

Of course the problem goes beyond that. The Armed Forces Pay Review Body has identified the overstretch on service families. The infantry and to some extent the

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seagoing element of the Navy are the two most overstretched portions of our armed forces. We could solve that problem and provide the comparatively small number of extra posts that are needed in the Army to keep those vital three or four extra infantry battalions if we were to attack the overheads in the MoD. Time permits me to give just two examples.

First, it frankly defies belief that, when we are reducing our surface Navy by 20 per cent. and our submarines by 40 per cent., we should choose to keep all four of our overmanned and underworked naval bases in being. I shall not argue which are the best and which are the least good, but the announcement in July of a few cuts across the board in them is not enough. At least one and possibly two of them should go.

A second example is the announcement of a £250 million purchase of integrated computing and office systems equipment supposedly to revitalise our defence procurement system. As a former management consultant, I must tell the House that one does not computerise a system before one has made it work efficiently. One gets it working efficiently first and then one computerises it. Our present defence procurement effort is not in a right state for computerisation. It will get worse rather than better, and it will cost the price of a squadron of Tornados to do it.

We can have an adequate number of infantry battalions if we are willing to grasp the nettle and cut the companies of computer operators, the battalions of bean counters and the divisions of dockyard workers. If we can provide those extra three or four infantry battalions that would reduce the overstretch so much on the infantry, and hence on the Army as a whole, then as the Member of Parliament for Canterbury, the home of the Queen's Regiment, I must say that top of the list for cancellation should be the planned amalgamation between the Queen's and the Hampshires. Our regiment is the only regiment in the British Army which is threatened with both amalgamation and reduction, and that in a regiment that is already formed from amalgamating six famous regiments with the highest number of Victoria Crosses of any regiment in the British Army.

My second theme is the future of the reserve forces. It is the wrong time to be cutting the reserves, but, whatever we do with the reserve forces, there are certain things which plain common sense suggests we should do. I should like to suggest five of them. First, one cannot move a Territorial Army unit ; one can only disband it. We should focus our future reserves, if we are to reduce the number, on the best reserve units. I find in horror, looking at the provisional lists, that we are proposing to disband some of the best-recruited and some of the most efficient units in the TA while others are being kept--it is invidious to mention names, but I could mention one or two units that can barely produce a company strength on a weekend. Secondly, we are the only country in the English-speaking world whose director of reserves is not a reservist. That is one reason why some of the proposals for the future of the reserves are not based on a full understanding of the reserves.

My third point is that one of the weaknesses in our reserve forces is that we put much less emphasis on officer training than, for example, the Australians and the

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American National Guard, who both have much more cost-effective reserve forces than we have, as evidenced, for example, in their much higher retention rates. I firmly believe that we should extend the Sandhurst course for reservists from two weeks to, say, seven or eight weeks, which is the period for which its equivalent in Australia lasts. Far from putting people off becoming reserve Army officers, we would have a really good product that we could sell to civilian employers as an effective form of management training. My fourth point on the reserve forces is that we must be quite clear when we look at the future size of the reserves that the pledges that we have had--they were very welcome--to expand the planned strengths from 50,000 to around 65,000 are pledges on strengths and not on establishment. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be able to put to rest the ugly rumour that is spreading that we are now looking at an establishment of 63,000 and a planned strength for next year of only 55,000.

My fifth point is that if our reserve forces are to feel confident in themselves, and if their morale is to be restored following their disappointments last year when so few of our reserve units were called out and they saw 78,000 American National Guardsmen and other reserve force personnel go to the Gulf, it is essential that we make it clear that in future conflicts our reserve forces will play a much more prominent part. That, above all, would convince the ordinary reservist that he has a real role to play as a part-time soldier. That would be best achieved by giving our reservists something to do in peacetime and by a greater willingness to use them for disaster relief operations, which is something that the Americans tend to do a lot.

I end where I began. The Conservative party is the party which firmly believes in strong defences. At this time of great changes, the Conservative party has a vital duty as the party in government to ensure that we continue to have strong armed forces. The basic concept is there, but a great deal of the detail needs working out. We must get the infantry question right and be much more imaginative in our ideas about our reserve forces.

9.9 pm

Mr. George Galloway (Glasgow, Hillhead) : The Secretary of State took a long time to shed a lot more heat than light on the thinking behind the decisions that we are debating. If I had the time, I should like to travel down several avenues of strategy, one of which was dealt with by my hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannan (Mr. O'Neill) when he asked why, at a time of what is, according to the Secretary of State, a greatly reduced threat, we are going ahead with a massive escalation of our nuclear punching power. The right hon. Gentleman said that that was necessary because we need to penetrate the anti-missile systems of our potential enemies and to ensure that our nuclear deterrent is credible. He was apparently oblivious to the implication of those remarks--that for many years we have spent billions of pounds on nuclear weapons that were incredible and incapable of penetrating our enemies' shield. However, as I have said, time does not allow me to pass down such avenues.

The fog of concern has never cleared from the battlefield of whether the Government's motivation has been the voodoo economics of the Treasury rather than

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the military logic of Britain's real defence requirements. I listened in vain for an explanation of why we are currently dismantling our Navy. In the short time that I have been a Member of the House, we have moved from being in favour of a surface fleet of "about 50" to favouring one of "about 30". That makes us the only island nation in history that has progressively dismantled its shipbuilding industry, decimated its Merchant Navy and now, for economic reasons, is about to destroy the capability of its Royal Navy.

As the Minister knows, I have the privilege of representing the flagship enterprise of Yarrow Shipbuilders, which built 10 of the 14 type 22 frigates and won six of the 10 contracts for the type 23s. Almost 10,000 jobs in Strathclyde depend on Yarrow's ability to continue to do the job that it does so well. Tonight or tomorrow I hope to hear assurances from the Minister that the order date for the next batch of type 23s, which has already been delayed for more than one year, will be the spring of next year at the latest. I am looking for assurances tonight or tomorrow that the order will be for the three ships that were orginally mentioned and that they will be issued in a batch. If that order is placed on the basis of the proper competition in which the Government say that they believe, and on the basis of quality, price and reliability, I believe that Yarrow Shipbuilders will win the order.

I also represent the headquarters of 15 Para TA, which is based at Yorkhill in my constituency. Like other hon. Members, I have been inundated with letters from members, supporters and former soldiers of the paratroop TA in my constituency who cannot believe that, in the situation that the Secretary of State outlined--with our country's changed military needs and with the changed perception of the threat facing us, its direction and it character--we are proposing to abolish a unit of the Territorial Army that contains exactly the type of soldier who is most required to meet the new military needs. What could be more flexible? Who is better trained, fitter, leaner and hungrier than the elite parachute forces of a country to meet these new military requirements?

We should contemplate the national dimension. Many speakers have said that if the proposals go through, there will not be a parachute TA north of Liverpool. It is simply monstrous and unacceptable. I hope that, even if nothing else changes the Government's mind, the sheer lunacy of the abolition of 15 Para will be brought home to Ministers. If the period of consultation is genuine, we shall see that decision reversed.

In the last few minutes available to me, I want to touch on the national question, as other speakers on both sides of the House have movingly done. I beg the Government not to underestimate the deep well of bitterness in Scotland at the extent to which we are being given a raw deal in this affair. There is a deep well of bitterness in Scotland, that most martial of all the nations of the United Kingdom. Its soldiers have been on the front line throughout the centuries and across all the continents. They have left their bones in the carnage of British imperial history in country after country and war after war.

That our regiments should be again so cavalierly amalgamated, disbanded and disregarded is a matter of deeply felt national insult. If the Government do not believe me, they should read the runes of the oncoming defeat for the Conservative party in the by-election in Kincardine and Deeside. Many issues will be at play, but

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the abolition or amalgamation of the local regiment will be one of the most powerful reasons why the Conservative party will be annihilated.

Believe me, Mr. Speaker, that deep well of bitterness is felt no more keenly than among the families and individuals of the Scottish regiments who were sent only a few months ago in disproportionate number to the front line of Britain's contribution in the Gulf war. We now know that when those soldiers were fighting, killing and, yes, dying in pursuit of the Government's policy, the fat cats of the Tory Cabinet and the mandarins in Whitehall, whose jobs are by and large safe, were conspiring to consign those very regiments, those very soldiers and their families to the dustbin of history.

I beg the Government to listen to perhaps not the reasons that have been given by hon. Members on this side of the House but the voices of their own people behind them and to think again on "Options for Change".

9.17 pm

Sir Alan Glyn (Windsor and Maidenhead) : Before the recess, we had the "Options for Change". I consider that there were three grave mistakes in the Secretary of State's speech. First, the cuts were too early and too drastic, even in view of the changes in Europe. It seems that my right hon. Friend was influenced by the ending of the Warsaw pact. But many other considerations come into the decisions. Secondly, the cuts were too drastic and too soon to meet our NATO commitments and our own overseas obligations. In particular, we failed to appreciate the role of the infantry in war.

I shall not go into the merits of the amalgamations because that is for the constituency Members themselves to do. However, the facts are that we have reduced to an untenable level the total number of infantry in our Army. The Secretary of State also referred to the loss of regimental spirit. He did not realise or appreciate the importance that the entire House has been able to identify. The third point was that the Territorial Army should be reduced. It should not. If the regular Army is being reduced, we need a TA as a second line. We needed that in the last war. How many territorials fell in the last war? They were a second line of defence. Moreover, as other hon. Members have pointed out, the training given to them is invaluable not only to the nation but to themselves. It gives them discipline and allows them good jobs. They are a credit to the country. The TA has a feeling almost of regimental pride. It is a tradition that we should not give up. Indeed, I should like a citizens' army. It would be difficult to organise. I envisage not national service but a far bigger Territorial Army.

The Secretary of State also talked about fire power at El Alamein and I was interested in his comparison, but he did not realise that our enemies had the same fire power as we had. I am talking not of Iraq but of our main enemies.

Everybody says that the collapse of the Soviet Union and communism is marvellous, but if we look closely we see that it strengthens the Russian army. It is not now saddled with a lot of unreliable allies. Poland has gone, and the Balkans. Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia and all Russia's satellites, except one or two, would have been unreliable in battle. Certainly the Mohammedan people could not have been relied on. The Soviet army is better off without these peoples. Yeltsin's Russia has sufficient soldiers, arms and ammunition to become and remain a

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first-class power. Only two or three provinces remain difficult and, of course, we do not know what they will do. There are rapid changes which we cannot ignore and we cannot rely on Gorbachev's promises. In any event, everything could change. If, for example, Yeltsin and Gorbachev went as quickly as they appeared, the position would be wholly different. Our old necessity for a large Army would exist. We are taking too short a view. Saddam Hussein, China, Israel and India all have atomic weapons, so we must keep Trident which is our only form of nuclear defence. The world is by no means safer. The uninevitable and unknown may easily arise with a Europe which is so disorganised and prone to change.

Finally, I turn to the Household Cavalry. I have served in the armoured regiment and the mounted regiment and I just do not believe that we can possibly run the armoured and mounted regiments without more sabre squadrons or some sort of training squadron from which to draw recruits.

9.23 pm

Mr. Roland Boyes (Houghton and Washington) : I have sat through all the speeches except a couple, and I apologise to those whose speeches I did not hear. The debate has been a good one, with strong feelings and passion on both sides of the House, particularly from those calling for loyalty to their local regiments. I hope that, when he reads the Official Report, the Secretary of State will take note of the many good points made. I can mention only briefly some of those who spoke because of the short time available to me. They include the right hon. Member for Hertfordshire, North (Sir I. Stewart), the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash), my hon. Friends the Members for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin), and for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galloway), and the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier). The hon. Member for Weston-super- Mare (Mr. Wiggin) declared tonight, with some passion, that he would not vote with the Government on this issue.

A number of hon. Members mentioned the Territorial Army. I agree with the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) about tactical air-to-surface missiles, of which we are not in favour. I also agree with him that we should keep the D5 warheads at the same level as our Polaris fleet. The hon. Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates) asked how decisions were made, and I am sure that the Secretary of State will reply directly to him. The hon. Gentleman made it clear that he was not asking for all cuts to be restored, only whether we had the size right. My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley, East (Dr. Gilbert) referred to nuclear depth bombs, and asked how we would take out submarines if we did not have such a weapon.

The Opposition agreed that no Front-Bench spokesman would show favour for one regiment against another. However, I want to raise one minor point about a change of name. During the recess I had a meeting with Lieutenant- Colonel Simon Furness and Major Bowers at the Light Infantry office in Durham. I support their view that there must be a complete Territorial battalion in the old County Durham from the Tyne to the Tees. There is

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great support among the military and from many others that the battalion should be renamed the Durham Light Infantry (7LI). I strongly desire that the link with Durham should be maintained, and I hope that soon we can headline the phrase, "The Durhams are back". That would be the cause of great pride among many former soldiers. Lieutenant-Colonel Furness has asked me to remind the Secretary of State that he was a member of the Somerset LI. I think that he expects some favour because of that.

I want to say a few words about the Navy. In the confused background to "Options for Change" it is little wonder that the detailed force structure proposals for the Navy are confusing. Let us first consider submarines. Only five years ago the Navy had a fleet of 15 diesel patrol submarines. Under "Options for Change", there will be only four Upholder class. What commitments are being dropped? Will there be sufficient vessels to meet all the demands of basic training, NATO exercises, operational training and support of special operations, or is it simply a fait accompli caused by the inevitable withdrawal of the aging Oberon and Porpoise boats, and Treasury dislike of the rising costs, delays and technical problems of the Upholder programme?

In the debate on the Navy last June, the Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement said that the cancellation of the fifth and subsequent Upholder class boats was decided after careful consideration and that the Government believed that they

"had the right balance between the SSKs and SSNs."--[ Official Report, 27 June 1991 ; Vol. 193, c. 1234.]

I was not convinced then, and I am not convinced now.

The thinking about Britain's contribution to submarine warfare has been dominated for too long by what I call the Rickover factor. As many hon. Members will recall, Admiral Rickover was the architect of the US navy's nuclear submarine programmes in the 1950s and 1960s. His unflinching devotion to nuclear propulsion still dominates US thinking. When the design for the Oberon-Porpoise class SSKs was being drawn up, the automatic assumption was that Britain had to think big, and to try to squeeze into a diesel submarine as many as possible of the deep ocean-going, anti- submarine capabilities of the SSN. As a result, we have ended up with a vessel that is so costly and over-complex that it does not work. We cannot afford it, and it is increasingly ill-suited to our real security needs. The need for the capacity for all-out nuclear and conventional warfare in arctic waters, under the ice and around the Kola peninsula, is receding daily into an historical fairyland, yet "Options for Change" restructuring of the Royal Navy will leave a navy increasingly geared to just such a fantasy. The real needs of shallow-water, anti-submarine warfare-- intelligence gathering, coastal protection, and low intensity warfare, for which the SSK is better suited--are being neglected. Instead, we persist with a mini-navy that is expensive to run and irrelevant to most of the conflicts in which we may be involved.

In the surface fleet, there is equal confusion about the basis for the future force structures and levels. The Minister said in last June's Navy debate :

"The force levels envisaged in Options for Change' were arrived at after careful analysis of the threat that Britain now faces it has been the threat against us that has shaped our work."--[ Official Report, 27 June 1991 ; Vol. 193, c. 1176.]

Mr. Franks : What about Trident?

Mr. Boyes : I will mention Trident in due course.

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However, there has been no clearly stated rationale for the planned reductions to "about 40" destroyers and frigates. Which tasks are to be dropped or altered? Will exercise participation be reduced? Is there a discussion in NATO about changing escort requirements and levels of declaration to NATO?

The Government should not be afraid to open a debate on the military rationale for cuts. Although we recognise the importance of retaining strategically vital industries and of limiting increases in unemployment, no one seriously believes that weapons and forces should be maintained when there is no military rationale for so doing. At the same time, if cuts are Treasury-led, we are in serious danger of abandoning capabilities when there has been no agreement to drop the role for which that capability exists.

The confusion surrounding Navy options for change is further illustrated by the marked contrast between planned cuts of between 20 and 40 per cent. in surface ships and submarines and the apparent immunity of maritime air forces from any significant reductions. Last year, a 15 per cent. cut in the Nimrod anti-submarine force was talked about. We are now told that only three of the 34 aircraft will be retired--barely 9 per cent. Last year, the Royal Aeronautical Society journal, Aerospace Magazine, reported that at least two RAF Nimrods had suffered so much salt water corrosion that the cost of repairing them was probably not affordable. Is that small reduction in the Nimrod fleet simply a measure that would have been implemented irrespective of "Options for Change"?

Ship ordering is another hardy perennial in any defence debate, and I refer now to orders for frigates. Warship yards continue to feel deep uncertainty about the future of type 23 orders. Will the Minister comment on the timing, financing, scale, and international work-shares of the proposed Anglo-French anti-air destroyer that is to replace the type 42? I understand that yards have been invited to tender for three more type 23 frigates, but that the Government have not yet decided whether to order them. That creates uncertainty in the yards where those ships would be built. I hope that over the next two days the Minister will say whether the invitation to tender will turn into orders. I am glad to see the Secretary of State back in his place, because he will fully understand what it means to the workers in those yards not to know whether those orders will materialise. We still do not know what is to replace Fearless and Intrepid. It is time that the Government made an announcement. There is no clear timetable for the refitting and return of Illustrious, and a cloud still hangs over the future of HMS Endurance. Much of the Government's talk about competitive tendering is just hot air. Recently, I suggest, Ministry of Defence officials were convincing the management at Devonport that they were in with a chance of competing for Trident refits when hundreds of millions of pounds are already committed to building up Rosyth for precisely that purpose. Recently I have been to Rosyth to see the big hole in the ground which is where the Trident submarines will be refitted.

We need to inject greater stability into warship ordering. With the declining number of yards, it makes sense to accept the argument for specialisation. Pretending that all yards can do all kinds of work is a recipe for unprotected investment and for keeping workers and management in a state of permanent uncertainty.

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Everyone knows and accepts that there will be fewer ship orders. We need more vision in the design of some of our ships to take account of the fact that presence missions are likely to be more important than the ability to fight and survive a nuclear war at sea. In the case of HMS Endurance--we have named it HMS Endurance II as a code-- we should be considering not merely the security needs of the south Atlantic but a wide range of environmental protection tasks to which HMS Endurance or its replacement could contribute, with more emphasis on co- operation with other countries and with a wide variety of non-governmental research interests. The work already done with the British Antarctic Survey is excellent, but a new ship to replace HMS Endurance would be a positive commitment by Britain to the protection and study of the world's last great wilderness. Again I hope that there will be a statement about HMS Endurance. I remember the hon. Member for East Hampshire asking me whether I would favour ordering a replacement for HMS Endurance, and I said categorically that there should be a replacement. I only hope that at some time during this two-day debate replies will be given. It is all right for the Secretary of State to make petty jokes--not very funny jokes--when workers are dependent on orders from the Ministry of Defence. Many of our shipyards are in areas of high unemployment. Instead of mumbling on and making petty and trivial jokes, it is about time that the Government told us that there will be orders for type 23 frigates and whether HMS Endurance is to be replaced. What about the other two ships that I mentioned?

Mr. Franks : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Boyes : I am following time constraints determined by the Under- Secretary of State for Defence Procurement.

Mr. Franks : What about Trident?

Mr. Boyes : The Under-Secretary asked for a certain amount of time to wind up and I promised to give him that time. I have always kept my word whenever we have offered time to each other in the House. Inevitably there have to be reductions in all our services because of changing global circumstances, especially following the Bush-Gorbachev initiative. However, if Opposition Members have to ask young men to fight for us--as a father and a grandfather I hope that that will never arise--we should supply our soldiers with weapon systems which are as good as, and preferably superior to, the weapons of our enemy. That at least we owe them.

9.33 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement (Mr. Kenneth Carlisle) : As we expected, there has been a wide rangeof contributions from right hon. and hon. Members during the first day of this debate. I think that we can agree that we have listened to some heartfelt and sincere arguments today. I have shortened my speech to allow more hon. Members to take part but I shall ensure that answers, where needed, are provided, even though I cannot answer myself in the short time remaining. However before answering certain questions, in the short time available I wish to mention three issues.

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First, given the many letters that I receive on the subject, I certainly understand the worries about low flying. I know that matters of flight safety are of great concern to many hon. Members. We share that concern, and, for the aircrews, safety is of paramount importance : they, after all, have the most to lose. At the same time, our aircrews must have the necessary training. Regrettably, every year sees a number of major accidents involving military aircraft. In some cases, tragically, aircrew members are killed. This year there was a particularly distressing mid-air collision over Carno in central Wales, in which a civilian pilot also died.

I stress that all such accidents are thoroughly investigated to establish the causes. Following the collision at Carno which involved both a civil and a military aircraft, the air accident investigation branch of the Department of Transport is also conducting an investigation. We are determined to learn any lessons that can be learnt in order to minimise the risk of recurrence. No accident level is acceptable to the armed forces, and we continually strive to make military flying as safe as possible.

Mr. Rogers : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Carlisle : No ; I have a lot to cover.

I stress, however--I know that there is a wide understanding of this--that such training is essential if we are to have an effective and modern Royal Air Force. The Secretary of State rightly welcomed a more peaceful world, but recent events have shown how tenuous that peace can be.

Rightly, the House and the public have paid great tribute to the skill and sheer courage of the RAF aircrews who flew low in the Gulf, and helped us to win that early and vital air dominance. They could not have done that without rigorous training. However, we are also very conscious of the environmental impact of that training in the United Kingdom.

On our small and crowded island, aircraft flying fast at low level are bound to upset some people. We therefore limit the amount of low flying to an absolute minimum, based on a rigorous assessment of what is specifically needed to build and maintain the skills required of our aircrew. Low flying is permitted only when it meets that training need, and there are strict regulations to minimise any nuisance caused. I give my pledge that we will continue to allow only the minimum low flying that is also compatible with keeping the quality of defence that we must have.

I have just reviewed the position, taking into account the reductions and changes that will flow from our plans in "Britain's Defence for the 90s", and the reductions proposed in United States Air Force aircraft based in this country. Although our planning continues, I can tell the House that we expect to cut the amount of jet low flying in this country by about 30 per cent.--nearly one third--over the next three years. That will be partly offset by some increases in other forms of flying, reflecting the introduction of the quieter non-jet Tucano for basic training, and changes being considered in the deployment of Army helicopters. But the total amount of low flying, in particular by the noisiest aircraft, will fall. I know that that news will be welcome to the House. Wherever possible, we

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will use simulators and train abroad. I am grateful to the United States and Canada for the facilities that they provide.

Let me also thank the House and the public for their tolerance and understanding of our low flying. Without that training, we certainly could not have a fully effective air force. [Interruption.] I know that the hon. Member for East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) is not particularly interested in an effective air force ; the truth is, however, that without low flying we could not have one. Let me emphasise that, over the coming year, we shall conduct our low flying in as considerate and sensible a way as possible.

Mr. Rogers : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Carlisle : No. The hon. Gentleman will have his opportunity tomorrow.

The fate of the ice patrol ship, HMS Endurance, has been a matter of great concern to many hon. Members, as it has been to the Ministry of Defence. HMS Endurance is 35 years old. It was expected that she would be able to operate as an ice patrol ship until the mid-1990s. However, she was damaged by an iceberg in the south Atlantic in 1989. Following that collision and the higher safety standards that now exist for ships that operate in ice, the Ministry of Defence has been undertaking an annual survey of the ship. The latest survey and new scientific evidence has revealed a risk of hull failure in Antarctic conditions. The Secretary of State for Defence has therefore been advised that it is not safe to deploy her in very cold temperatures, or in areas where ice might be present. HMS Endurance will therefore be decommissioned.

No suitable Royal Navy or Royal Fleet Auxiliary ship was available to fulfil HMS Endurance's role this winter. After a full market survey of the vessels available, MV Polar Circle was found to be the most capable replacement. I am happy to be able to announce to the House today that we have chartered this Norwegian icebreaker, MV Polar Circle, which will sail to the south Atlantic this winter to carry out the tasks of HMS Endurance. I know that Opposition Members are not happy about that. They would prefer to see us remove ourselves entirely from our global responsibilities. MV Polar Circle will set sail at the end of November flying the--

Mr. Michael Shersby (Uxbridge) : Is my hon. Friend aware that his announcement of the replacement of the present vessel with a modern vessel is most welcome news to the House and to the Falkland islanders. However, can he tell us whether he contemplates providing a longer term replacement vessel, and is he aware that it is the desire of many Falkland islanders that that vessel should be renamed HMS Endurance to continue a long- standing naval tradition?

Mr. Carlisle : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I can advise him that the requirement for a longer-term replacement for HMS Endurance is being considered separately. No decision has yet been taken but the Government are committed to maintaining the programme previously carried out by HMS Endurance.

Mr. O'Neill : Will the lease of MV Polar Circle be for only seven months? How much would it cost if the ship were to be purchased rather than leased?

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Mr. Carlisle : If the hon. Gentleman had done his homework, he would know that HMS Endurance served in the southern seas for only certain months of the year. MV Polar Circle will carry out the programme that HMS Endurance was to have carried out.

MV Polar Circle will set sail at the end of November flying the white ensign and carrying a Royal Navy crew. She will be taken into commission with the Royal Navy for the period of her charter. She will undertake tasks in support of the British Antarctic Survey and will also carry out hydrographic survey and meteorological work. We are confident that she will be able to meet HMS Endurance's commitments this winter. I hope that this news will be welcome to right hon. and hon. Members.

Mr. Amery : What those of us who, under Lord Shackleton's leadership, have been advocating is a long-term commitment to a British presence not just in the Falklands but in the Antarctic area. I did not catch whether the Minister committed us to that. I hope that he did.

Mr. Carlisle : I understand my right hon. Friend's commitment to that but, as I said, the Government are committed to maintaining the programmes previously carried out by HMS Endurance.

The third issue that I should like to raise is the response of the Ministry of Defence to the citizens charter. Unlike other Departments, the Ministry of Defence does not provide a service direct to the public. One understands from the reaction of Labour Members that the Labour party has no commitment to a citizens charter. It wishes to serve not the public but only the unions.

Our charter's aim is to improve quality and standards, which is central to everything that we are trying to do in defence. Our principal response to the charter will be to continue to provide a formidable defence of our country. Indeed, in terms of quality, our armed forces showed in the Gulf that they are second to none. But because of the size and nature of our defence we come into direct contact with the public in a number of ways. Where this happens, we shall strive to be good citizens and we are taking several initiatives to achieve that. Our relationship with the environment gives us such scope. The public are rightly entitled to expect that we should conserve and care for that natural environment. Our charter is to do so and to give a lead on environmental matters. In the past year, we have produced an environment manual--the first of its kind in Government--that contains practical advice on a wide range of environmental issues, including the prevention and control of pollution, the minimisation of waste, energy efficiency, recycling and compliance with the Environmental Protection Act 1990. The manual is becoming a working document on environmental practice in the Ministry of Defence.

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