House of Commons Hansard Debates for 15 Oct 1991

Ms. Quin : We know that one way of simplifying the system and making it cost less money is to allow the regions to have much more direct links with Brussels over the allocation of the money. Because of the Government's insistence on everything having to go through the Treasury, even when they act contrary to the rules in Brussels which they originally accepted, the present situation is very unsatisfactory. The Government are helping to waste some of the money on unnecessary administrative burdens.

The Government's attitude to the ECSC treaty is a clear example of the way in which they have failed not only the regions but the United Kingdom as a whole. It will be left to an incoming Labour Government to repair the damage and put us on the road to regional and industrial recovery.

11.20 pm

Sir Teddy Taylor (Southend, East) : I wish to say a few brief words on which I hope hon. Members will reflect.

I am sure that, if I represented a steel or coal area and if there were the slightest chance of getting more money under any guise, I would support it. Opposition Members have fought bravely and sincerely in the interests of their constituents. They are quite right, and I am sure that their constituents would be glad to do it also. However, they must realise that we are not talking just about cash for industry and commerce. We are talking about a fundamental right of the United Kingdom Government. If people do not like what the Government are doing, they can chuck them out at the election. They can elect the Labour party and they can change things. At least we have the power to decide.

The Department of Trade and Industry has achieved a victory on a fundamental point, and we are proud of it. It has said that the Government will stand firm on the basic principle that cash coming from Europe is indeed additional cash and that we, as a democratic Government,

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decide how it is then parcelled out. If we say that commissioners will decide how the cash is to be spent in Britain, what the blazes is the point of Opposition Members trying to be elected to Government? If we say that the Brussels machine will decide how the cash is allocated and how it is spent on top of Government money, we will throw away a huge section of decision making.

Opposition Members fight sincerely and valiantly for their constituents. What do they do if they do not like what the Euros are doing? What do they do if they think that they are wasting money--throwing good money after bad? They can do nothing whatsoever about it. It is an essential issue of democracy.

For the first time in a long time I am delighted to support a Government motion on a Euro issue. There is no doubt that there has been a change. If Opposition Members had come to the Conservative party conference they would have seen a significant change of opinion, just as if I had gone to the Labour party conference I would have been aware of a change. After some of the crazy undemocratic actions of the EEC, there is now a desire on the part of the Government to try to fight some battles. At least we are fighting one here. The hon. Member for Gateshead, East (Ms. Quin) said that we are out of step--the other countries do not bother about it. If they are offered money by Commissioner Millan, the other countries say, "All right, we will take it, and shove it on top of our policies." Of course, the other countries are doing that. We must remember that most of those countries are net recipients of EEC funds. The difference is that Britain and one other are massive contributors. Last year, despite all the glories of the changes made by the former Prime Minister, who got refunds and rebates, the net contribution by the United Kingdom was £2.3 billion. That is an underestimate, because, on top of that, much of the money was given to traders to dump food, and that was expected to be receipts.

Mr. Hardy : The hon. Gentleman has always been consistent and tonight he has let the cat out of the bag in giving us his assessment of the Government's approach. As he has long been critical of the EC, will he not at least be sufficiently generous to congratulate Commissioner Millan on seeking to ensure that the rules that he has to apply are applied fairly and properly to Britain and to everywhere else? In making sure that the funding is being properly applied, he has discovered that it is not being properly applied here because the Government have agreed with the hon. Gentleman and are in breach of their own commitments as well as the rules of the Community.

Sir Teddy Taylor : If the hon. Gentleman looks back into history, he will find that that is the consistent view of United Kingdom Governments-- that cash given from Brussels under these aids is added to the investment total. It is, of course, additional and the Government then determine its distribution. If we did not do that, we would be throwing away a huge section of the decision-making powers of any democratic Government.

Despite what Ministers say--we know that they have denied this--we are aware that there has been a battle over this. The easy way would be to say, "Okay, we'll take Mr. Millan's cash and quietly hand over this power." It would be easy to do that because every other member state does

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it--except the United Kingdom. It is not true that the law or the obligations are clear and precise. There are different

interpretations, but this is a battle worth fighting.

Mr. Cash : I agree with 90 per cent. of what my hon. Friend is saying, but will he make it absolutely clear that he would not in any way want to see the wrapping up of the ECSC treaty in favour of an EEC treaty combined with economic and monetary union, which is implicit in the proposals? In other words, does he agree that he would reject that aspect also?

Sir Teddy Taylor : I should, if I were--

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. The hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash) is rather wide of the mark. Perhaps the hon. Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor) will come back to the treaty under discussion.

Sir Teddy Taylor : It would be an insult to you and to the House, Madam Deputy Speaker, if I were to be drawn into all the business about EMU. The ECSC is complicated enough without straying into other areas.

My second point to hon. Members is, "Please, please don't think that there are no conditions attached to taking easy cash." We should think about the problems facing many of our constituents. I am sure that many people in the constituencies of Opposition Members will have got into trouble by taking easy cash. Well, this would be easy cash. We could simply knock on Mr. Millan's door and say, "Right, we'll take it," and then piles of money would flow into the United Kingdom as a result of the administrative hold- up. But what would we be giving up in exchange? We are giving up the democratic rights of the Government. If the Government make a mess of things, they can be thrown out. If there is a by-election, people will give the Government a warning. I advise Opposition Members who have fought hard for their constituents--and some of them fought in the war for democracy-- not to throw away this additional freedom of action of Governments. Opposition Members should remember that if the Government are doing something that they do not like, they can fight to chuck them out.

Mr. Jimmy Hood (Clydesdale) : Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if Bruce Millan had £300 million to give away to farmers Conservative Members would be turning somersaults to get hold of that money? Are we not seeing another example of an attack on the mining communities and are not these objections simply because the money is for those mining communities?

Sir Teddy Taylor : I am sure that, on reflection, the hon. Gentleman will realise that I accept--most Conservatives think this privately although we cannot talk about it--that the common agricultural policy is a load of rubbish, a waste of money and that it damages the third world. If we look at the figures, we find that for the money that we give there, we could give every farmer a cheque for £127,000 and say, "Good luck. Do as you like. Go on your way." But because the system is wasteful and bureaucratic, they do not get it. I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I am not talking about farmers or miners because both farmers and miners are decent people, whom we must protect. That is why we should talk not about them and their respective merits, but about democracy.

My second and final point which I hope that hon. Members will think about is, "Please, please don't think

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that everything spent by the EEC is good and that everything spent on research is good and is not wasteful." Let us think for a moment about the recent decision.

Way back in 1975 I recall listening to hon. Members such as the Minister for Transport when it was made abundantly clear that, come what may, there would be no question of any EEC or Government funding for anything that was then called the channel tunnel. We had advertisements all over the newspapers saying--

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. I have given the hon. Gentleman a good run, but he is now widening the debate considerably.

Sir Teddy Taylor : I am coming right back to the ECSC. I do not think that you will have heard, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I know that hon. Members will be shocked to hear that, believe it or not, the ECSC, which was set up to defend coal and steel, has given a £300 million cheap loan to the channel tunnel in addition to the £1.3 billion given by the European investment bank. Now the Government's latest plans are to pretend that the line is partly a commuter line and put piles of money into it.

The funds are being used in a bogus way to give backstairs Government money to promote and keep going white elephants such as the channel tunnel and others. I ask hon. Members please to remember that this is not an issue of giving or not giving cash to miners. The fact is that if Bruce Millan had kept to the rule that the Commission has abided by until now--it had never broken it until recently--the money would be coming from Brussels. It is not coming because there has been a change of policy in the EEC, not on the part of the Government. The Government have not changed the rules or their policies. We have always proposed the idea of additionality. The Commission has changed its mind. It is saying, "We are not sending the cash because you will not agree to our decision making." It is a huge democratic issue. Therefore, I hope that Opposition Members will not go through all the nonsense of saying that the Government are denying the cash. Opposition Members know what the facts are. They know that Mr. Millan has changed the rules and is now saying, "You agree to my rules, the rules which other members accept, or you will not get the cash." It is absolutely disgraceful -- Mr. Dalyell rose --

Sir Teddy Taylor : I have a high regard for the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell). He has always supported the right things. But he knows what the facts are. The rules have been changed.

Mr. Dalyell : In what way has Commissioner Millan changed the rules?

Sir Teddy Taylor : Previously the Commission accepted the policy of the United Kingdom that the funds would come to us, that we would add them to the total and that we would make our decision about distribution. That is a fact. The Minister may be able to clarify the issue further, but the facts are clear and precise. Opposition Members know what the issues are. Therefore, I hope that while they fight valiantly for their constituencies, their coal miners and the steel industry, they remember the democratic issue and the rights of a democratic Parliament.

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If the Government do things that people do not like, we can get rid of them. If the people do not like what Mr. Millan and the Commission do, they are utterly powerless.

11.31 pm

Mr. Alexander Eadie (Midlothian) : As the debate progresses we can probably conclude that the No Turning Back group is very much alive in the Department of Trade and Industry. The hon. Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor) had better realise that this is not a question of democracy. It is not even a question of decision-making. It is a question of the money that we will throw away if we subscribe to the bogus democratic arguments that the hon. Gentleman sought to advance.

I found it a bit rich when the Minister talked about

non-intervention and taxes. In Britain an energy tax is being applied. There is an energy tax on the coal industry to subsidise the nuclear power industry. That is the policy of the Government. So it is clear that the Government pursue interventionist policies. The Minister talked about a less interventionist approach. We listened yesterday to an interventionist approach when the Secretary of State for Transport talked about subsidising the Huntingdon line. There may be a good argument for it but I simply suggest that it is bogus for the Minister to talk at the Dispatch Box about non-intervention, taxes and subsidies when his Government pursue such policies. Commissioner Bruce Millan has been attacked in the debate tonight for holding back the money. The argument of the hon. Member for Southend, East is not so much that the miners should get the money. He wants to get his hands on the money too. He uses the bogus argument that the Treasury has the right to decide even though the Government came to an agreement about how the money should be allocated. It is no use trying to say that the rules were changed ; they were not. Her Majesty's Government entered into a binding agreement on how the funds should be allocated. Money was earmarked for mining areas, such as mine which is job hungry, and such deprived areas are waiting for it now. Yet the Government argue that it is Mr. Millan who is holding them back.

We in the House are always arguing about additionality. Mr. Millan has made it perfectly clear that every other country in the EEC has carried out the decisions. This Government entered into a binding agreement and all the other countries have agreed, but this Government want to go back on their word. They want the money that is earmarked for mining areas to be buried in the Treasury, which would then decide on its allocation. The House must decide whether the mining areas are to be deprived of the money that was specifically earmarked to deal with the contraction of the mining industry. This is not a question of sovereignty. Tory Members have advanced a bogus argument. It is a question whether the Government are still so prejudiced against miners that they want to deprive mining areas of the money allocated to them. We deprecate that.

The Minister spoke of the Government's record on assistance for mining areas. All I say to him is give them time. If the Rothschild report is implemented, there will be no mining industry left. As a supporter of the No Turning Back group and as part author of a pamphlet of it, the hon. Gentleman will be happy about that.

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Having listened to the debate, I can understand why the Government are facing defeat at the general election. I understand from the attitude of hon. Gentlemen. They want to hold on to money that is earmarked for areas that have suffered from the contraction of the mining industry. It is a disgrace that a Minister should come to the Dispatch Box and make such a case when he knows that his Government entered into a binding agreement, yet will betray it.

11.37 pm

Mr. William Cash (Stafford) : I shall speak briefly in support of the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor). He is right about sovereignty for the very reason mentioned by the hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie), who touched on the question of taxation in relation to these proposals.

The documents make it clear that one of the main ingredients of the proposals in the treaty is the provision of a genuine and direct tax. As the explanatory memorandum states :

"the Commission points out that the levy on the ECSC industries used to fund redeployment aid, is the sole example of a genuine Community tax."

Now we have the proposal for an energy tax which will compound the problem, but I shall not stray into that this evening. The memorandum continues by saying that the Commission advocates the retention of these proposals precisely because this is a genuine Community tax. That is at the heart of the sovereignty question and why I agree 100 per cent. with the Government and my hon. Friend. The reality is that we are dealing with a matter that goes to the heart of the functions of this House.

I mentioned the control of state aids when I intervened in the speech of the hon. Member for Gateshead, East (Ms. Quin). The Commissions's document states :

"Control of State aids is more restrictive in the ECSC Treaty than in the EEC Treaty."

It is precisely because of the misuse of state aids to France and Germany, through the derogations that have been conceded, that our coal and steel workers are put at such a disadvantage. They should be supporting us, not vice versa.

Mr. Hood : The hon. Gentleman appears to be against regional aid and he seems to have the support of the hon. Member for Sherwood (Mr. Stewart), who has a mining community in his constituency. The hon. Members seem to be against regional aid, in particular aid to mining communities. However, the Government have already agreed to that policy, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie) has said, they are now welching on that agreement. As a result, the millions of pounds that could be spent in deprived areas will no longer be available. The hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash) supports that policy.

Mr. Cash : The hon. Gentleman does not appear to have comprehended the point about regional aid. The problem with regional aid is that it distorts economies in a way that ensures that the money goes on resources that are not properly used. It would be far better to have effective economies through competition that would be able to compete with one another. That is what the European Community is supposed to be all about. The hon. Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood) will not, of course, agree with me because he is a socialist, if not a marxist.

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Mr. Hood : Thank you.

Mr. Cash: The hon. Gentleman may thank me because that is what he is.

The whole problem about state aid is that it distorts the market and militates against the interests of the very people who Opposition Members are supposed to represent. That is the problem and one of the reasons why the Government are completely right in their policy.

Mr. Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) : Is the logic of the hon. Gentleman's argument--

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. Is the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash) giving way or has he finished his speech?

Mr. Cash : I gave way because the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) is so persuasive.

Madam Deputy Speaker : It would be nice if that were indicated to me.

Mr. Salmond : Since the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash) is against all forms of state aid, is the logic of his argument that he is against the billions of pounds spent in London docklands in the past three years?

Mr. Cash : Where state aids are used in a manner that is contrary to the provisions of the EEC treaty--that is where the problem arises--they are unlawful and they should be dispensed with. There are occasions when within the context of treaties they are allowable and that would be acceptable in the docklands case. When dealing with state aids which are unlawful and which should not be used, they should be dispensed with. That is what Commissioner Brittan is trying to do, and he is running into a lot of difficulty with the French and the Germans for precisely that reason.

11.41 pm

Mr. Alex Carlile (Montgomery) : The ECSC treaty played a considerable part in the rebuilding of the manufacturing industry in Europe. One should not look upon it as though it were a dreadful error, as seems the implication from some Conservative Members' speeches. However, it must be accepted that today the ECSC treaty looks outdated. and out of context in modern Europe. Change is overdue. An obvious example is that the levy that cannot logically be regarded as appropriate in today's liberal economic democracies of Europe and in their common market.

The long-term question is whether, and if so how, the two important industries of steel and coal should still be supported by special financial provisions and to what extent they should be integrated into the post-1992 market. With the sole exception of agriculture--I make that exception because of its universal distribution across the Community countries--it seems sensible and logical that all the industries of Europe, including steel and coal, properly be regarded by the same standard within the Community.

Another important issue that arises was not considered in the 1950 treaty because it was not a subject for debate at that time--the environment. The ECSC treaty fails to take into account any of the urgent environmental imperatives which we understand today, but did not understand 40 years ago. It fails to mirror the commitment that the European Commission has made in the past two

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years in favour of tough carbon and desulphurisation ceilings to be imposed on heavy manufacturing industry and the energy industry. Modern European economics mean that we must end local protectionism of industries, including coal and steel, in terms of direct state aid and subsidies. Primarily, that too means that the EC must create an equal standard for the treatment of industries in all member states. In some member states--I cite Italy as an example because the evidence is clear--the Government have enabled the steel industry to be underpinned by large subsidies, despite obvious inefficiencies. I hope that we all agree that any new legislation to emanate from the EC must ensure that no member state permanently subsidises inefficient producers elsewhere in the Community, particularly when the British steel industry has made significant productivity gains during the last 10 years. Whether it was right to achieve those gains in the way it occurred is open to debate. Nevertheless, we in the United Kingdom have taken the medicine prescribed by world markets. Others have still to face up to it, and it is not right that we should pay for their recalcitrance.

While we appreciate that many provisions in the ECSC treaty are anachronistic in many respects, there is still an overwhelming need for policies that address the industrial development and future of the industries themselves and, perhaps more particularly, of the geographical areas in which they are set.

The areas where coal and steel were predominant in employment terms are now in transition from dependence on those industries. Nowhere in the United Kingdom is that more obvious than in north Wales, where a successful transition has been made from almost total dependence on coal and steel to coal and steel being part of a much wider range of productive industry.

The circumstances of coal and steel decline, especially as, hopefully, we see the countries of east and central Europe joining the EC, either with associate or full member status, mean that we must concentrate policy on regenerating the regions where the industries are dying or have died. Funding must be made available in future, though probably not through ECSC machinery, to enable stronger regional governments to facilitate measures such as retraining for laid-off workers and seed-corn capital initiatives. The Government's determination to terminate the ECSC treaty at an early stage and to regulate the two industries through the broader provisions of the treaty of Rome risks sacrificing the urgency of the transitional regional development that needs to be achieved. If the commitment by the EC on environmental regulations is to mean anything, any new treaty or amendment to the treaty of Rome must entrench the targets for carbon emissions and desulphurisation. My party believes that such commitments should have constitutional force. There should be the certainty of enforcement and the Government should say that, whatever happens to the ECSC treaty, a high priority will be given not only to regional regeneration but, with that constitutional force, to protecting the environment. There must be devised and agreed a new EC energy strategy with much stronger commitments to the environment than the British Government have ever been prepared to make.

While these EC documents are silent on those environmental issues, their balanced conclusions on other matters are sensibly cautious and a practical and correct

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part of what we can properly regard as the evolution of the economic and monetary union to which I aspire. My party regrets that the Government do not show the same level of commitment. That is why, I believe, Commissioner Millan looks with a suspicion shared by many on the Government's attitude to additionality. The Government know, I am sure, that their reputation on the additionality question is worse than that of any other Government in the Community--although that may be something on which the hon. Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor) would congratulate them.

It is a matter of regret to my party that the Government are not prepared to recognise that the gradual approach represented by the European Community documents is a reasonable and proper one ; and that they adopt such a grudging approach to change in the Community. 11.49 pm

Mr. Gerald Howarth (Cannock and Burntwood) : The attitude taken by the Opposition tonight suggests that they have lost none of their enthusiasm for levies and taxes. The speech of the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Carlile) showed that at least there is a constructive view in his party, and that the Commission's proposal was out of date. It is unfortunate, however, that the Labour party should choose to side with the institutions of the EEC against our own domestic interests.

There is no doubt that all hon. Members who represent coalfield areas have a common interest in ensuring that the £100 million of RECHAR money wends its way to our constituencies as quickly as possible. I find it extraordinary that the hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie) can so breathtakingly dismiss the massive amounts of public funding that have been given to our industry by the Government. According to my hon. Friend the Minister, the industry has received some £14,000 million of taxpayers' money. No one in his right mind could accuse the Government of having done anything other than support the industry most generously. My own constituency has seen the effects of derelict land grant. In the past eight years or so, it has received some £6 million and areas that were formerly derelict have been transformed.

I believe that Commissioner Millan is the man who is being thoroughly bloody-minded. It is most unfortunate that the Opposition have chosen to support him, and the institutions of the EEC, against domestic and constituency interests. As a former Minister, Commissioner Millan knows as well as anyone the way in which the United Kingdom organises its public finances. He knows that the Treasury maintains control over all aspects of public expenditure and that it must so do.

We must bear in mind the fact that the Government have acknowledged that the question of additionality exists. That is why, in the attempt to reach an accommodation with Commissioner Millan, nearly £100 million has already been committed to ensure that the RECHAR money can be released. Some £45 million of top-slicing has been agreed, along with £22 million of derelict land grant, £25 million for British Coal Enterprise Ltd. and £6 million in rural coalfield grant. That shows

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that the British Government have sought to do a deal with Mr. Millan--but he is not interested ; he is only prepared to be bloody-minded.

Mr. Andy Stewart (Sherwood) : May I reinforce what my hon. Friend has just said? Before doing so, however, may I nail the lie attributed by the hon. Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood)--

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. I do not think that any hon. Members have been exchanging lies here this evening.

Mr. Stewart : The view attributed to me is not my view. I have always supported the additional money coming to the areas that I represent. This year, under the stage 2 funding from the EEC, Newark and Sherwood district council is having three projects funded to the tune of £500,000 each. We are disgusted that the further help through RECHAR that is earmarked for my constituency, and for part of Ashfield district council, is being blocked by Mr. Millan.

Mr. Howarth : My hon. Friend makes a fair point.

As the hon. Member for Gateshead, East (Ms. Quin) was so courteous in giving way to me earlier, she enabled me to refer to a number of issues. All that I would say to her and to her colleagues is that we have common cause to make, which is to persuade Commissioner Millan that he is the villain of the piece.

11.54 pm

Mr. Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) : The Opposition are not surprised that the Government have tabled this motion, although it was done without much notice. They have shown constant disregard for the effects of their policies on areas that depend on coal and steel. Since they came to office in 1979, 220,000 jobs in the coal industry have been lost, as well as thousands of jobs in the steel industry. They have all been assisted by redundancy payments from ECSC funds. It is also not surprising that the Government stubbornly refuse to pass on the full £100 million of RECHAR aid to coalfield communities. Earlier this year I went to the Department of the Environment with a delegation from the Coalfield Communities Campaign. We were told plainly by a Tory Minister that the Government agreed with the arguments made by us and by Bruce Millan, but that it was the Treasury and the Department of Trade and Industry who were stopping it being passed on. That shows the division in Whitehall regarding this money. The £100 million has not been paid out. Other member states who are eligible have met the rules that these people think are offensive. If we do not meet those rules pretty quick, I have no doubt that that £100 million designated for this country, to provide assistance in areas where it is very much needed, will end up in France, Spain and other member states that are meeting the rules laid down by the Commission. Those who sit on the Treasury Bench are not telling the truth if they say that that money has been stopped by the Commission.

Many points have been made about this issue. Even the European Parliament found time to debate a resolution asking the United Kingdom Government to adhere to the additionality rules of the European Community to which they were a party in the first place. Once again we are out of step with the 11 other member states, yet Ministers

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argue that the 11 others are out of step with this Government. It is about time that they put their house in order so that we can get assistance for the regions.

The context of the debate is the future of the ECSC treaty. The amendment tabled in the names of my right hon. and hon. Friends puts our case. We believe that the treaty should run its course through to 2002. We also believe that the levy that provides the funds for loans and interest rate subsidies should remain in place. With the Government's dismantling of any real semblance of regional policy, the only place to turn to has been the EC. With their record on regional aid and RECHAR, it is no wonder that the Government would like to see the levy abolished.

We agree with the Commission that these provisions would be useful as social flanking measures, but the Government apparently believe that this is far too much an interventionist approach. Such an ideological debate does not look well when it is compared with the common agricultural policy, which I assume Conservative Members support. I do not expect that the Minister disagrees that the farmers in Gainsborough and neighbouring areas should get assistance from the CAP. If it is good enough for farmers to be paid on occasion for doing nothing, it is also good enough for ex-miners and ex-steel workers. They should get assistance when their industries are being run down.

The guidelines on production and capacity that can be issued under the provisions of the ECSC treaty are rarely used. When they are used, as they were in the early 1980s, it is to get rid of the "manifest crisis" in the coal and steel industries. From what we have heard during the past seven days about the Government's plans for the British coal industry, once again there is going to be a "manifest crisis" in the not-too-distant future--a Government-sponsored crisis, since they are bent on privatising the British coal industry. However, they say little about privatisation. In fact, the "p" word is not to be used about the national health service.

We see a need for the ECSC treaty to be used in the future. When the treaty finally runs out in the year 2002, other industries that are not covered by such help and protection may be needed. That is what the Commission is saying. It does not agree with the ideological claptrap that we have heard from the Department of Trade and Industry and the Government. A lot more sense is coming from the Commission than from Whitehall.

We shall press our amendment to a Division because we feel that it is in the national interest to do so.

11.59 pm

Mr. Leigh : I am grateful to all the hon. Members who have taken part in the debate, including the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Carlile) and my hon. Friends the Members for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor), for Cannock and Burntwood (Mr. Howarth) and for Stafford (Mr. Cash). They have all debated the RECHAR money. I explained my position clearly and fairly. The Government believe that these moneys are genuinely additional. We regret that Commissioner Millan is choosing to withhold them. If coal mining communities are being denied the moneys, it is the fault not of the Government but of Commissioner Millan. The Government are interpreting the rules correctly. I regret

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that Opposition Members have not taken this opportunity to remind Commissioner Millan of his duty to coal mining areas.

Mr. Peter Hain (Neath) : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Leigh : No. I gave way 10 or 12 times in my opening speech. I was surprised by the comment of the hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Barron). I think that I heard him correctly when he said that is was possible, and perhaps desirable, that Commissioner Millan should decide not to give the funds to this country but should divert them to other European countries.

Mr. Barron : I did not say that.

Mr. Leigh : I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman because it is important to set the record straight. That was my understanding and that of some of my hon. Friends.

Mr. Barron : I did not say that that was desirable. I said that it was likely to happen, given that the Government, unlike other member states who are eligible for the money, will not take notice of the rules. In those circumstances, it is likely that we could lose the money. Ministers have told me that they disagree with what has been said tonight. When will the Government put their house in order, as have other member states, and get this much needed help to areas that have had a massive rundown in basic industries?

Mr. Leigh : If the money is to go to those areas, the decision lies with Commissioner Millan. We are interpreting the rules correctly. We pay £1,800 million into the structural funds and receive £900 million back--£600 million via the Fontainebleau agreement--hence it costs us £300 million per annum. That is our money. We pay it in. The Government will decide how the funds are disbursed.

The treaty is outmoded and out of date. I asked the hon. Member for Gateshead, East (Ms. Quin) whether she would explain the Labour party's position. Under the treaty, the Commission can levy a discriminatory tax on the coal and steel industries. It is significant and interesting that the hon. Lady would give no indication of the Labour party's view on the levy. It is a discriminatory levy.

This is the first industry debate after the party conferences. We heard much about the Labour party's new industrial policy. It seems that the Labour party is still wedded to the past. It alone is committed to retaining the treaty, which places a discriminatory levy on the industry.

Mr. Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) : Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Leigh : No. I do not have time.

The treaty results in rules and regulations being made which govern investment in the industry. The Labour party has built its socialist rock and will not be moved from it. It will stay in opposition because it alone wants to keep the treaty as it is. It wants to live in the past. We want to take the coal and steel industries into the future. We have put massive investment into the coal industry. The steel industry is now profitable. Under the Labour party it lost £1 billion. We are producing twice as much steel with half as many men employed. We can be proud of the coal and steel industries.

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