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Minister is not prepared to give them freely, we shall have to draw the obvious conclusion--that what we thought was the case is so and that this is not a defence review. I, for one, do not think that it is a defence review because it does not seem to address defence priorities or to give us the information that we need about which of the activities of the troops are no longer to be undertaken by military personnel. That is what we need to know. We will want those answers and we will want them in detail.The nature of the decision to cut from 55 battalions to 38 seems to reflect considerations other than the viability of the units and the ability to recruit. My hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) made the point that the cuts in the Scottish Division, which is fully manned, and the cuts in the Coldstream Guards and the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, which recruit largely from the north, do not seem to be mirrored elsewhere--for example, in the lack of cuts in the Queen's Division. Perhaps that fact merely reflects the Government's projection of likely unemployment in the south as a result of their economic policies. Perhaps they think that there will be plenty of people to recruit to the Queen's Division ; I do not know. I do know, however, that the rationale behind the cuts appears politically skewed and I do notlike it.
Let me pick up on a point made by my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Houghton and Washington (Mr. Boyes) last night. What is wrong with reviving the old Durham Light Infantry tag for the Territorial Army in Durham ? Why cannot we do that for the territorials in other areas and revive the cap badges of the regiments that have been lost ? I do not want to see those regiments lost. My grandfather was a member of the King's Own Scottish Borderers and my father was a member of the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. I do not see why those regiments should be lost. At least their cap badges and traditions could be kept. After all, we do not know when we might have to recruit those battalions back up to regimental size. We do not know what will happen in the future.
I will tell the House something else that worries me. A number of hon. Members present this evening were fortunate enough to visit Nepal with the Defence Committee while it was considering the future of the Brigade of Gurkhas. I have already said that I do not want to lose recruitment to the Coldstreams or to the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, but such considerations pale into insignificance when looked at in the context of the loss of pensions and remittances in the hills of Nepal. We are talking about the fourth poorest country in the world and those remittances go exactly where they are needed--to the hills. They are not filtered by agencies or Governments. No one gets his sticky fingers on them. Those people have given loyal service to Britain for centuries and I think that to slap them in the face, as the review does, is an insult not only to them but to the many hon. Members who have served with the regiment. The Minister has made a serious mistake in adopting such an attitude to the Gurkhas and I hope that he will reconsider.
For some reason, the Government seem to want tactical air stand-off missiles. Will the Minister tell us in his reply exactly what threat TASMs are supposed to meet, given the effectiveness of the ALARM missile that was used in the Gulf to suppress anti-aircraft radars and anti-aircraft missile radars? It seems to me that the Government are again yearning for a system that does not exist and that is not really needed.
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I listened carefully to the comments of the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (Mr. Franks) who, unfortunately, is not here at present. If the Government believe that the fourth Trident boat is needed, when will the order be made? Is there any truth in the rumour that VSEL is trying to put pressure on the Government to get type 23 orders to take the place of Trident orders and to screw the price of the Trident order accordingly? If that is true, it will have the most serious consequences on Clydeside and Tyneside. I do not think that the House should conclude the debate tonight without first having heard the Minister announcing the order and stating the price--or not.Had the Labour party made such cuts, there would have been the most horrible headlines in The Sun , The Daily Telegraph and so on. Anyone who listened to my hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannan (Mr. O'Neill) will realise that the Labour party had no intention of making such cuts when it came to power. The cuts are wrong and the Labour party would not have introduced them.
6.28 pm
Mr. Robert Boscawen (Somerton and Frome) : I want to take this opportunity to associate myself closely with the tributes paid in the debate to Britain's armed forces of today and in particular to those who served us so well in the Gulf. I have not had the opportunity to do so before. Many of those service men were from the Fleet Air Arm base which I am proud to represent in this place.
The RAF and the coalition air forces did a fantastic job in maintaining air supremacy and, as a consequence, our casualties were, thank goodness, exceedingly low. It was, however, an unpleasant war and that is clearly revealed by the war diary of the battalion in which my son served. I read it this morning and its says : "We trained for and fully expected a dour and unpleasant fight with an enemy who was both dogged and well equipped. The prospect of chemical or even biological warfare was a daunting thought, let alone the prospect of close infantry work at the point of a bayonet." Our troops did well and they performed as their forebears have always performed. I believe that our Government, the Prime Minister and Ministers at the Ministry of Defence, performed well at that time, too, and they deserve credit for that.
After the changes in world politics no one recognises better than the service men whom I have mentioned and defence factory workers, of whom I represent a large number, that changes have to be made and that our forces have to be smaller. However, the Government have been cautious by not going too far in certain respects ; in particular I have in mind the Government's order for the best anti-submarine warfare helicopter that they could buy to protect the Royal Navy. That will keep the Royal Navy ahead in that field well into the next century. Ministers and the companies concerned that are developing that very expensive system deserve full credit for this. I know that Westlands is determined to meet the challenge.
Alas, I cannot continue my catalogue of praise when it comes to the Army. The balance of the reductions goes too deep in the case of the number of infantry battalions. There is, of course, no major commitment for our forces that can be envisaged which we do not share with one or other of our allies--principally the United States--or perhaps on behalf of the United Nations.
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However, our military experience and presence in significant numbers is very often essential in adding a restraining hand on such allies in out-of-area danger spots. We should not forget that. In his usual entertaining and interesting Punch and Judy show, the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) reminded us that we are not out of the woods yet with regard to contemplating and planning for disasters and unexpected threats to our security and to those of our friends and allies who might call for help.Yesterday my right hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery) posed a crucial question about another Falklands or another Gulf conflict and he received a considered answer today. However, that answer confirmed my worst fears. Should we regrettably have to take part in a similar operation, we would have nothing left in the locker, just like that awful day--15 September 1940--when we could not put another squadron into the air. The important point is the lack of reserves when a disaster occurs. We have been terribly lucky in recent conflicts not to meet a high attrition rate. That is what so concerns me.
The proposed reduction in the infantry to 38 battalions, two of which are somewhat limited in their deployment--the Gurkhas--goes to the heart of the problem that worries me and others. The worries are not simply felt by a rusty old firearm on the wall like myself, whether or not his is ill or well bred. The concerns are shared by many in the services today. Not just the senior brass at the peak of their careers may necessarily be worried, but the bright and up-and-coming middle rank officer who will have to see the changes through and the very respected long-serving senior non- commissioned officers are worried. They have seen and felt the overstretch of unaccompanied tours over recent years. They are aware of the shortage of troops and the extra numbers that are required from time to time as a result of the energency in Northern Ireland and they are aware of the effects on morale, on families and on recruitment. They believe that the changes to the infantry will make it much harder for them to do their proper jobs. Those are serious charges and I am afraid that the comments of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State yesterday did not give me real confidence that they are being answered.
I refer to two of the important reasons given yesterday for the reductions, one of which was warning time. Of course, the warning time of an assault on the central front or anything remotely of that order will be greatly extended and that makes planning and deployment easier. However, our tiny Army must be ready to repel or defeat the sudden unexpected emergency that arises out of the blue. Let us look at the book : wicked men still exist and intelligence has too often proved to be indifferent. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State drew attention to the failures of intelligence in the recent conflict and the same was true in the Falklands war. I implore the MOD not to lean too much on the belief that there is plenty of warning time on all such occasions.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said, too, that units of other arms will be better placed to share the infantry emergency tours. However, he is well aware that specialists and others are always in short supply in our services. It is no real answer for a vital job not to be carried out by people wholly trained for it, if that can possibly be avoided.
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I cannot allow the lamentable fate of the Household Division to go by default which, to a large extent, it has done. Under the proposals the division will simply no longer be able to carry out its dual job. In the original proposals it cannot have been foreseen or intended that its public ceremonial duties and role, largely in London, would have to be so severely curtailed. Senior officers are seriously warning us that, with the tiny additional increment that it is proposed to squeeze from the total strength of the Army, the five remaining battalions of the Foot Guards and the one battalion of the Household Cavalry simply will not be able to carry out the state duties that they perform at the moment. Some people may not agree with me and believe that the proposal is good, but I believe that the ceremonial duties set a standard far wider than just for all the armed forces. They add something special to the country and the country can ill afford to lose them.Several Hon. Members rose --
Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. I hope that the House will support the Chair in trying to implement the Standing Order.
6.38 pm
Mr. John Morris (Aberavon) : Lest I be thought churlish, once again I will say my thanks on behalf of Wales for the decisions on the Royal Welch Fusiliers.
I wish to deal briefly with one issue and one issue alone, and that is the housing of ex-service men. We have all had experience in our representations to local authorities over the years with homeless ex- service men and those about to be homeless. I have also seen the problem at the other end, both as a defence Minister and as a housing Minister. The plain fact is that hitherto there has been no concerted plan to house ex- service men. If something comes out of the current defence review--I look forward to the Minister's remarks--it will be a valuable and permanent bonus.
We are told in the press of proposals of a group of industry representatives, housebuilders and housing associations to offer serving members, first, 30 per cent. off the cost of their married quarters and, secondly, in the alternative some equity share deals in housing. I am sure that that is very welcome and that they will use part of the 70,000 married quarters, 10,000 of which are vacant. The danger, as with all house purchases, is that the best will be taken, leaving the worst for the remaining Army. I welcome that step as going some way to dealing with the problem.
One peculiarity of the consultations is that local authorities were excluded from them. The chairman of the Association of District Councils, Lady Anson, tells me that it asked for a meeting to discuss the MOD proposals, and that the MOD felt that no such meeting was necessary "at this stage." I read the letter with utter disbelief. It cannot be so. I am sure that the lady is not telling me an untruth. I shall be very interested in the Minister's explanation of why an important component of the provision of housing in this country--local authority associations--were not consulted. Local authorities, of course, are under great pressure. Many ex-service men do not want to buy their houses, are not able so to do, or do not know which
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area they want to live in. They have followed the drum in respect of joining the Army and they will want to follow their work when they come out. The Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen's Families Association tells me that the vast majority of local authorities have nothing to offer by way of housing and that there is a constant trickle of local authorities or housing associations which strike service families from their lists. Council pools are getting smaller. It is perhaps natural that those furthest from the door are most vulnerable. I am told that the most recent one--perhaps the Minister will confirm it--is Rushmoor, a council which includes Aldershot, the home of the British Army. I should like to know whether it is one of the councils that have struck service men from their lists.There is also great pressure on service families. There is more divorce in service families. Separation periods are bound to get longer with a smaller Army. Soldiers get married younger. Some of us have seen at first hand some of the problems of young wives posted to Germany, far away from the base, their husbands leaving for work early in the morning and returning home late in the evening. They are serious problems.
Over the years, service families tend to become institutionalised. I do not mean that in an offensive way, but they have been cocooned and looked after. Their housing and their furniture, for example, have been provided for them. In that sense, they are less well prepared to meet the problems of the outside world. We should recognise that fact.
I am told that 27 per cent. of soldiers, including officers, own their own homes. That is less than half the national average. On a quick calculation, a substantial number of alternative houses will be needed for service men who leave the services. Some will buy their own houses, some will not be able to do so, some will regard the location of existing Army homes as quite unsuitable, bearing in mind the place where they wish to enter the labour market. They will want to rent, given that so many of their families have been and are in council houses. Their kith and kin are in council homes. How can any plan be drawn up without consultation with the local authorities that eventually will be faced with the problem of homelessness? The Ministry of Defence, as part of its responsibility, should consider a direct infusion of resources to councils and housing associations. Housing associations are some of the Government's favourite children. They do good work. Therefore, why not earmark a proportion of their resources to be made available to ex-service families? Indeed, a SSAFA-sponsored housing association might be brought into being and resourced to renovate some of the homes that councils cannot repair at the moment. There should at least be communication among local authorities, housing associations and the Ministry. I just cannot understand how the chairman of that distinguished association was able to write to me in that way. Opposition Members will be very interested in the Minister's explanation.
We owe our soldiers and their families a great deal. We have created their way of life. We have given them an expectation that that way of life will continue for many years. We are now breaking that expectation. They are the salt of the earth and we owe them a great duty. The way not to provide for them is for soldiers to have to go through undignified and, for some families, maritally stressful periods when a possession order has to be obtained and served on them by the Army. Soldiers will
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then enter the ranks of the technically homeless in areas in which they want to work and live. I cannot think of anything worse than to end a military career in that way--the Army needing the home and asking for such an order on a service man.I hope that my few remarks will bear some fruit. Although my service was short, as an old soldier I understand some of the problems of the young service men whom I looked after many years ago. Service men will now face a very stressful period going into the outside world without the resources and support that they have hitherto enjoyed.
6.47 pm
Mr. John Wilkinson (Ruislip-Northwood) : We have all been moved in this two-day debate by the contributions of right hon. and hon. Members-- some of them demob happy, but none of them in any sense out of touch in what they said about our defence at this time. I refer in particular to the speeches of my right hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery), and my hon. Friends the Members for Windsor and Maidenhead (Sir A. Glyn) and for Eastleigh (Sir D. Price), my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Boscawen), and my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro).
In the next Parliament, probably more than half hon. Members will not have done national service. It is quite possible that, even now, more than half the members of the Cabinet have not done so. Although the "Options for Change" exercise may not be Treasury driven, the accumulated wisdom that comes with the profession of arms and the experience of serving under the colours is something that the House should hold very dear. It certainly was a formative experience in the careers of Harold Macmillan and Anthony Eden and many other distinguished servants of our country, including, of course, Sir Winston Churchill--
Sir Nicholas Fairbairn (Perth and Kinross) : And Clement Attlee.
Mr. Wilkinson : Of course, including Clement Attlee and many others.
We should look at the way in which we run our parliamentary procedures and processes and see whether we can better address the problems of defence. What we lack in personal experience we may to some extent be able to replace by better procedures in this House and better training of our Members. Some hon. Members go on parliamentary service fellowships and return all the better for the experience. I went on a parliamentary industrial fellowship with a major industrial company which supplies armed fighting vehicles to our armed forces. I almost learnt more in that time than in many years spent simply in the House. We should address defence issues here in a spirit of reform.
Let us take five key issues and see how the House has dealt with them. I turn first to the European component of our defences. For many a long year, and now, lucky hon. Members--I say "lucky" avowedly--have served in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Western European Union. They have written reports about industrial collaboration and about European intervention forces. Like members of the North Atlantic Assembly, such as the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Sir P. Duffy), they have written many
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other useful reports, all too many of which have accumulated dust in pigeonholes. Now, at long last, Her Majesty's Government claim to have recognised the importance of strengthening the European component of NATO. I hope that from now on the House and the Government will give the WEU and its Parliamentary Assembly the importance which they deserve.Secondly, I recall that in the 1970 Parliament Ministers insisted almost ad infinitum that the Invincible class carriers, which were called the "through-deck" cruisers then, were not to have fixed-wing aircraft such as Harriers. Several of us, including the former Member for Beverley, Sir Patrick Wall, argued, argued and argued that it was fatuous to introduce this category of vessel into the fleet without Harriers. Indeed, without the Harrier carriers we would not have won the Falklands war. This example shows that the House can be instructive and educative, as it should be on the question of helicopters for our armed forces. We can all recall the Falklands and how overstretched our helicopters were throughout the conflict. The same was true in the Gulf war, yet the Select Commmittee report on the EH101, and other relevant Select Committee reports, are added as a rag, tag and bobtail to the Order Paper, and their recommendations about the need for modern attack helicopters and for modern utility helicopters, such as the EH101, have still not been acted upon by Her Majesty's Government.
There is also the issue of our reserves. Heaven alone knows how we will cope with the uncertainties of the future if we reduce our regular forces and reduce the number of our reserves at the same time. We should at least be compensating for the reduction of regulars by augmenting our reserves in number as well as quality. The Air National Guard and the United States Air Force Reserves played a crucial part in the Gulf war. We should take their example to heart and follow it.
Turning to the infantry, I shall not follow the admirable speeches which we have heard about the Brigade of Guards, the Scottish and other county regiments, but, like the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr. McWilliam), I should like to refer to the Gurkhas. I initiated an Adjournment debate on this matter which, in 1989, also gave rise to one of the best Select Committee reports that the House has ever produced. Yet, flying wholly in the face of all the evidence that the Gurkhas are the most cost-effective troops, that they are fully recruited, that there are 250 applicants for every place and that their selection procedures are of the toughest, Her Majesty's Government have gone against the commitment--and it was more or less a commitment--to keep 4,000 and to go down from this minimum brigade strength to two battalions. It is extraordinary and shows the importance of the Government's taking note of Parliament's sensible suggestions.
Last but not least is the question of procurement. I have advocated for a long time that until the Select Committee on Defence acquires an appropriation function, as is the case with the United States Congress, it will remain a paper tiger and its reports will remain rag, tail and bobtail appendages on the Order Paper. It is important that the House itself takes note of that fact and acts upon it. Unless the collectivity of Parliament does so our Select Committees will remain relatively impotent.
I hope that all hon. Members have read today's first-class leader in The Times, which is headed "Mother of Word-Games". It exposes Parliament for what it is today
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--a place of party, of privilege and of patronage, where people's aspirations for public office get the better of their individual consciences and judgment far too often. This is also allowed to happen because our Select Committees cannot properly do their job of scrutiny. Therfore, when we are seeking to achieve what we wish to achieve in a debate such as this, we have to adopt all sorts of subterfuges, such as voting against a perfectly sensible reasoned amendment from Her Majesty's principal Opposition, but then voting against the defence estimates themselves. That cannot make sense. It cannot be right. We need to be able to focus on our particular dissatisfaction, such as the fact that it is irresponsible to reduce our infantry battalions to the extent that they are being reduced. We need to focus on that matter and to put it right. The Times leader states :"The committees are the nearest Parliament gets to a plausible role in modern British government, the nearest to independence of party, to competence in a subject and to scrutiny of legislation and decisions."
I hope that, at the very least, following this debate we will put that matter right so that a defence review will never again be discussed at the fag-end of a Session. The review should have been discussed in the early stages of our processes, as soon as the conclusions of the Gulf war could reasonably have been assessed, not tagged on to our proceedings at the end of the Session. I hope that we can put our Select Committee system and parliamentary processes right so that our defences can be better served.
6.56 pm
Sir Patrick Duffy (Sheffield, Attercliffe) : It is a pleasure for me to follow the hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson) in a defence debate. In my judgment, no hon. Member has a better feel for the subject or is better informed. I agree almost wholly with what he said and hope that hon. Members will ponder his speech. I also agree with the hon. Gentleman that the nature of the threat to the security of Europe is changing drastically. We are now moving from the era of a potentially big- war crisis to an era of multiple security risks. Considering the magnitude of such possible challenges, it is obvious that there is no single answer nor one single instrument that can provide the answers. Nor is this something that western Europe can be expected to cope with by itself. Hence the continued and vital need for transatlantic cohesion. So we must be thankful for all the new security structures that are coming along ; for the addition of over-arching east-west structures such as the CSCE, notably, as well as for an increasingly tight network of arms control agreements, the Western European Union, and the growing concern of the European Community for peace and stability in all of Europe.
When we are asked where do non-NATO EC members like Ireland and non-EC NATO members like Norway and Turkey fit in, we are reminded of how fortunate we are in the possession of NATO, for NATO remains the one structure that provides actual security to its members, and now even further afield, as was demonstrated in the Gulf.
But we are also reminded of how complex and even confusing European security tapestry has become. Yesterday the Secretary of State commendably picked his way through that maze and, at the same time, in this framework of evolution and uncertainty, sought to
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demonstrate the ability of British forces to defend the country and simultaneously to contribute to international security. I do not believe that you would expect me to say that he was as impressive on the second count as on the first, Madam Deputy Speaker, yet it is the second which the debate is all about.Furthermore, NATO is also rethinking its long-established strategy and operational concepts. Although the strategy is not expected to be available until next month, it has already revealed the ace rapid reaction force concept as the key crisis contingency element of the future NATO force structure. It thereby pre-empted some of the Secretary of State's options for change by assigning the corps to British command.
Therefore, the task of the Secretary of State and his colleagues has not been easy. But the measure of creating the rapid reaction force will not be enough by itself. NATO members, including Britain, will also have to develop more skilful techniques of command and control for surveillance and intelligence gathering if crises and conflicts are to be headed off. But all that will prove inordinately expensive--and they are quite apart from weapons systems.
Against that background, certain questions arise. First, has our defence review been well conducted, properly thought through and well presented, and what has been its impact on those who matter first and foremost--our armed services? Despite the Secretary of State's assertion at his party conference last week that the cuts are "based on a full strategic assessment"
rather than Treasury arithmetic, it was apparent yesterday afternoon that he had not yet convinced the House of Commons. Certainly the strategic implications of this year's White Paper are little clearer than in last year's "Options for Change" precursor. There is no strategic vision as yet. That is understandable. I still sympathise with the Secretary of State. As the White Paper says : "the risks we now face are far less obvious and monolithic." But when the White Paper reaffirms Britain's traditional commitments--they exist, but time does not permit me to rehearse them--it is saying that, given the cuts, the Government expect the armed forces to do the job that they are doing now, and have been doing, with a third less of everything. That has inevitably given rise to a fear on both sides of the House that the Government will yet find it impossible properly to meet any one of those commitments.
To turn to just one service--the House would expect me to look first to the Royal Navy--we cannot but notice how difficult is the position in which the Navy is placed. Short of money and of men, it does not know whether it is being asked to run a strategy aimed at the defence of the home base or a capability for intervention overseas. If the Government are intent on cutting off the long-term future of the Navy, in the words of captain Richard Sharpe, editor of "Jane's Fighting Ships",
"it would be more honest to say so, rather than continuing to pretend to commitments not matched by the required order rate of new ships."
It is difficult to avoid the feeling that the new policy, strategy and tactical doctrines for NATO forces in Europe have not been fully thought out. Even outside Europe, where the Secretary of State has left British military strategy as it is, is he sure that he is providing enough men and equipment? A drastic reduction in infantry battalions
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and armoured regiments is unavoidable. But is the Secretary of State satisfied that he is not sacrificing the ability to cope with the unexpected ; that the cuts will not lead to an over- stretching of forces in peacetime and a dangerous shortage in times of tension ; that postings will not become longer ; that service life will not become less interesting ; and that recruitment and retention will not suffer?This afternoon the Minister told the House that he was satisfied that high- intensity conflicts, at least one at a time, could be met successfully. But what of the impact on the services and their morale? Morale has already suffered in the past year. There has been so much uncertainty. The Americans have gone through the same exercise, but it has not had the same unsatisfactory impact on their service men.
If the strategic rationale for the Secretary of State's policy looks questionable and its presentational aspects and impact on services morale are also questionable, the budgetary sense of his proposals is even harder to assess. I believe that "smaller but better forces" is a worthy objective. Nevertheless, there is doubt, again on both sides of the House. The House is not yet convinced that that objective can be achieved. The Minister will recognise that there is a real danger that smaller could lead to much smaller, given economies of scale. It is his job above all to follow that one through. He will know that the overheads needed to support small forces are high and that the cuts may push forces below threshold levels of viability. But what about the equipment that goes with those men? In the less well defined security environment of the 1990s requiring mobility, flexibility and above all high technology, the systems that he will have to provide will prove increasingly expensive.
The most serious criticism that can be applied to the White Paper is that it is geared only to the transition from the cold war to whatever may succeed it. Yet it sets in motion a dramatic restructuring of Britain's armed forces without attempting to describe the circumstances in which they will be most likely to operate. The review can be complete only when that restructuring has been related to the emerging international system.
The Secretary of State has pleaded uncertainty. Yes. But if we face an uncertain future we may also face an unexpected threat. We have done so more than once in recent years alone. Therefore, we must plan against uncertainty, no matter how difficult that is. The structures that we choose must avoid rigidity and finality, however much the future remains wrapped in uncertainty and obscurity.
7.6 pm
Sir Nicholas Fairbairn (Perth and Kinross) : It is a privilege to follow the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Sir P. Duffy). The United Kingdom Parliament has sat here since 1707. Parliament is a forum for the discussion and debate of issues. We are supposed to be a parliamentary democracy. Where is democracy and debate when the Secretary of State says on television outside this Chamber half way through the debate that, whatever we say and whatever arguments are made, he will not change his mind? That is not government by Parliament, but government by diktat.
The Secretary of State made great play of the advance of democracy in Soviet Russia. Perhaps we have reversed
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our roles. Those are harsh words perhaps, but if soft words cannot prevent foolhardy decisions, harsh things must be said and I am compelled by duty and with sadness to say them.The first premise of the cosy picture of the safe and peaceful world that the Secretary of State painted last evening is surely odd when this morning President Gorbachev had to call a meeting to prevent the disintegration of Russia and has also had to call in the United States to prevent civil war with nuclear weapons in Russia itself. If we cannot find the nuclear weapons in Iraq under an international treaty, what chance do we have of controlling them in a disintegrating Soviet Union?
We did not foresee the Falklands. We did not foresee Grenada. We did not foresee Kuwait or the Berlin wall. We have not foreseen anything that has happened. I just ask what unexpected conflicts we will have to discuss if we have a debate in a year's time. The Secretary of State's second fallacy was his comparison of the artillery. It is false to compare Alamein with the Gulf war. A weapon is only as good as its user, as the Scuds and Tomahawks demonstrated. Far more people were killed by free-fall bombs dropped from old aeroplanes on Dresden in one night than were killed in Kabul or Beirut by thousands of rockets of modern construction falling on them night after night.
I know about that because I was in the artillery and fired the first corporal rockets, or missile rockets as they were called then. The first one went a bit askew. It went off towards St. Kilda, which is a bird sanctuary. That was in the days when Ministers did not come to the Dispatch Box to plead that the Ministry of Defence was environmentally friendly during a debate in which it was seen to be cussedly insensitive to its own forces.
The third fallacy is that we can meet our commitments. No infantry commander believes that. Even if we could, it overlooks that circle of decline which the hon. Member for Attercliffe mentioned : more duty, less training, less expertise, shorter service, the best go and, worst of all, more divorce and less morale.
The fourth fallacy concerns the proposed amalgamation, which means destruction, of the four Scottish regiments, which the Secretary of State described as "considerate and fair"--the authorised version in his speech on 23 July--or "careful and prudent"--the revised version of yesterday evening. It is not fair. Under the Goschen formula it is 10 : 1. If we are to lose four regiments, the English should lose 40. If they are to lose five regiments only, we should lose one bren group. That is a ridiculous concept of fairness. As a result we shall have 5,000 job losses. For those men in the highlands and the lowlands that will mean neither guns nor butter.
The Secretary of State misunderstands the regimental tradition in Scotland. It is entirely different from that of England. There is a weft and a weave- -I ask forgiveness of those in Cheshire, Staffordshire and so on--of the whole community and the whole concept of our society in Scotland. The kilt and the pipes are part of the military and civil traditions which are interwoven and inseparable. My ancestress founded the Gordon Highlanders--
Mr. Menzies Campbell (Fife, North-East) : She gave a kiss to every man who enlisted.
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Sir Nicholas Fairbairn : She did not do so by giving every man a kiss. She held the King's shilling in her lips and when the man took it he got it. All the Scottish regiments are fully recruited. The fifth fallacy is that there has been full consultation. The Army Board is itself. That is not full consultation. The council of colonels was given this consultation : "You will be hanged, drawn and quartered. Either you are hanged, drawn and quartered or you decide in which order you want to be quartered, hanged and drawn. Otherwise, we will decide it for you." That is not consultation.On 23 July the Secretary of State boasted :
"For more than 40 years the British Army has stood in the front line in Europe with our NATO allies."--[ Official Report, 23 July 1991 ; Vol. 195, c 1036.]
For 285 years the Scottish infantry regiments have been guarding the safety of the realm of the United Kingdom. They have served worldwide in wholly disproportionate numbers and with casualties in every engagement from Lucknow to Kuwait. The father of the colonel of the Queen's Own Highlanders, already an amalgamation of the Cameron and Seaforth Highlanders, and about to be amalgamated again if the Secretary of State does not see sense, then commanding the Seaforths on the first day of the Somme, went into battle with 600 Jocks and came back with 40. That is the sacrifice that Scotland has made. That is not an argument of sentimentality or of specialty. It is an argument and a warning--I am afraid, a terrible warning--of the consequences of ill-thought-out acts of obstinacy.
Bydand--I bide my time--is the motto of the Gordons. They will bide their time and the Secretary of State will be the victim. If he betrays those who have played the greatest part--the lion's share, or the unicorn's if hon. Members prefer--in the defence of the union of the realm since 1707 with ferocity, sacrifice and loyalty, and those who are most loyal to the union now and who would vote and fight for it, he may find that he has not only cut the Army but broken the union. "Nemo me impugne lacessit" is the motto of Scotland and means, essentially, "Don't affront the Jocks or they won't forget it"--and, by God, we won't.
7.15 pm
Mr. Dick Douglas (Dunfermline, West) : I shall deal later with some of the remarks of the hon. and learned Member for Perth and Kinross (Sir N. Fairbairn).
Parts of the procedures of this House disturb me and one, if I may speak with great humility, is the way that we pass over bereavements. I hope that the House will forgive me if I preface my remarks by saying how much I miss the late Member for Kincardine and Deeside, Mr. Buchanan-Smith. [ Hon. Members"-- : "Hear, hear."] He was certainly a right honourable gentleman. He stood up and made his views well known, occasionally against his party. Although we in the House can differ across the Floor, in other ways we are bound by friendship. I am speaking personally because I paired with him and I miss him a great deal.
There are great paradoxes in the debate. They are most profound in relation to the diminution of tension in east-west relations. We no longer behave as if the Soviet Union was worse than the Third Reich. Now we are concerned lest the Soviet Union disintegrates like a contemporary Austro-Hungarian empire.
The right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), who is not in his place but that is understandable, said that we should cut our defence expenditure even further ; but he
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did not say what he would cut. He made no suggestions. I will not fall into that trap. It is the Government's responsibility in putting forward "Options for Change" to promote their case. The onus of proof for what they are doing is in their hands. We in the Scottish National party say clearly that we cannot have adequate, appropriate, conventional defence and retain the posturing of being a strategic nuclear power.The old argument was that we needed these weapons because the Soviet Union had them and that, although we were friendly with the United States and they furnished these weapons, we could not be sure that they would use their strategic weapon in certain circumstances, which were never defined, in our defence. That is not the case now. The argument has shifted. Now there is no conceivable reason for suggesting that we would use our strategic nuclear weapon--Polaris if it is viable, and there are great questions about that--against the Soviet Union or its "disintegrating" component parts. Now the argument is that we need them because we have discovered that Saddam Hussein has them. If that argument is advanced to anyone in the international theatre or in any other nation state, the logical question is why should the newly united Germany not have such weapons? Why not Japan? That is a recipe for proliferation. One of the unmentionables in this debate in relation to the middle east--I do not applaud its omission--is the fact that Saddam Hussein tried to acquire a nuclear potential because Israel had such a potential and was developing it further. That development is still continuing, but what proposals do the Government or anyone else have to disarm Israel? There are no such proposals.
Let us be frank, I am speaking on behalf of the Scottish National party and our amendment makes it clear where we stand on this issue. The hon. and learned Member for Perth and Kinross made great protestations about how Scotland is being used and abused. Scotland is currently the nuclear dustbin and at the next general election we Scots will have to ask ourselves whether we are willing to have our nation used as the prime site from which strategic nuclear weapons could continue to be marshalled for probable use. Scottish Labour Members in particular will have to ask themselves that question. They are the same individuals who cheered when it was announced that the United States Poseidon fleet was being removed from Holy Loch. Will they be the same people who will cheer when the four Trident submarines come into Faslane from Coulport?
We have been told that the general election will be held within the next nine months and I believe that there will be overwhelming Scottish support for the stance that the SNP has taken tonight and will take at that election--I am willing to wage a bet on it. One cannot have Trident and adequate and appropriate conventional forces. Let us examine the Navy. The right hon. Member for Leeds, East said that the Army will be cut by one third. One could not cut the Navy any further. A realistic examination of the numbers in the Navy reveals that there are between 40,000 and 50,000
personnel--imagine a cut of one third. The Navy is already starved of adequate surface vessels and the ordering pattern for type 23s has been pushed to the right and diminished.
Mr. Roland Boyes (Houghton and Washington) : Dead right.
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Mr. Douglas : The Labour Front Bench spokesman may say that I am dead right, but what is the Labour party's commitment to conventional forces if it intends to keep four Trident submarines ? The hon. Member for Houghton and Washington (Mr. Boyes) should remember his own speeches. He said that we should not have SSNs butSSKs--conventional submarines. How can the Labour party have SSKs, order type 23s and keep up all the other requirements ? That cannot be done unless defence expenditure is increased and not subject to a cut.
I have some knowledge of Yarrow and I have had talks with Sir Robert Easton. It is not good enough for the Government to say that they have put out a tender for three vessels. The resources of the yard were called into being by the Government. The Government said that we needed a naval shipbuilding yard and Yarrow constructed a frigate factory. The Government, having called those resources into being, cannot simply walk away. The same argument applies to Ferranti.
Let us consider the Scottish battalions or what is euphemistically called the Scottish Division. We have spoken in general terms about numbers, but what are we talking about ? If we take all the Scottish regiments, the cuts mean a reduction from nine battalions to six, which is equivalent to 3,600 men. That is not even a good crowd at East End park. We are told that what will be left will be sufficient in terms of recruitment from Scotland--no wonder the hon. and learned Member for Perth and Kinross gets annoyed.
The hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) made great play about the discussions that have gone on with Scottish Enterprise. I do not want to claim any great credit for a defence diversification agency or fund, but when did the Labour party meet Scottish Enterprise to discuss this proposal ? We in the SNP met representatives from Scottish Enterprise on 26 June and put the proposals to them.
Mr. Rogers : Does the hon. Gentleman want an answer now?
Mr. Douglas : No doubt the hon. Gentleman will write to me. There is an excellent article in today's edition of the Financial Times which reveals the importance of defence procurement. The defence industry, called into being by the Government, has many diversification ideas and concepts that need to be underpinned. That should be done by the Government and should be part of their responsibility and it should be part of the options for change that the Government should accept.
7.25 pm
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