House of Commons Hansard Debates for 15 Oct 1991

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"As dredging was taking place alongside the new berthing there could be a serious leaching of asbestos from an underground dump at the locus arising from the possible removal of a retaining wall which had been built to enclose the dump."

That was the view of a district council which is made up of all political parties. The Ministry of Defence should be courteous in replying to the council on that point.

My constituents have raised the issue of empty Ministry of Defence houses. The other day, a Rhu constituent said that 30 to 40 houses were lying empty. The Ministry should undertake fruitful negotiations with the district council. The homeless of Dumbarton district, whether service people or ordinary constituents, would be better served if the houses were utilised. That is an important point. Several of my constituents are involved in the Yarrow shipyard. One of them, the vice-convenor of the trade union side, wrote to me. Yarrow is the largest employer in Strathclyde, employing 5,000 people. The last batch of orders was lost in December 1989 and 645 people will be made redundant this December. The type 23 case for Yarrow is strong, because Yarrow designed the frigate for the Ministry of Defence, specifically to meet British needs. The yard is at a critical point.

Over the past 15 years, £55 million has been invested, £8.5 million of it in a modular construction facility, and £1.7 million on upgrading design and drafting computer graphics. The work force is skilled, with only 5 per cent. being declared unskilled. Yarrow is the largest manufacturer in Strathclyde. As the company with the largest skills base in Strathclyde, we can ill-afford it if that yard loses contracts. I make this case on behalf of my constituents and those employed by the yard, in the light of the good work that Yarrow has done in the past.

During the past year, several issues were raised before the Defence Select Committee. Will the Minister explain the continuing rationale for a United Kingdom tactical air-to-surface missile? For whom is it intended? Let me put the question simply : is it intended for use against the Poles, the Ukrainians or the Russians under Yeltsin, or is it intended for resolving regional disputes in the Balkans or for a future Saddam Hussein? I put those questions because there has been no adequate explanation of why, if there has been a de-escalation in nuclear weapons, the Government are determined to go ahead with TASM.

If the Government say that they are withdrawing TASM, they will make a crucial political point. If TASM were used, it would be indefensible in terms of the Chernobyl-style poisoning of the continent that would result, affecting innocent and guilty alike. It is said that it is intended for use on the mainland of Europe. Given the tremendous strides that have been made in nuclear disarmament in Europe, aided and abetted by Presidents Bush and Gorbachev, it ill-behoves the Government to maintain that they will go ahead. All the evidence points to the opposite conclusion from that reached by the Government.

In paragraph 322 of the "Statement on the Defence Estimates 1991", the Government say that they would not support amending the partial test ban treaty because they believe that

"effective deterrence is necessary to prevent war",

and that

"our nuclear weapons must be kept up to date."

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I quote two of many experts, Hans Bethe and Noris Bradbury, both former directors of the United States nuclear testing laboratory at Los Alamos. They contest the assertion that nuclear weapons need to be tested to the point of nuclear explosion. They say that it is sufficient to test all the non-nuclear components of a nuclear weapon to ensure that it will function effectively. Those critics maintain that the need to conduct nuclear explosions derives from a desire to develop new types of nuclear warheads, "third generation" weapons, including, for example, the strategic defence initiative's X-ray laser. If the intention is simply to maintain assured nuclear deterrence, nuclear test explosions are not essential. Again, the Government should be making a big political point by supporting the treaty.

Another issue is the United Nations arms register. It is an important point which the Government should take on board. In the past year or two, we have seen increasing, perhaps exponential, arms sales to the middle east and to Africa. Recently, I looked up the table of third-world countries that received arms in the past 15 years. Eight out of the top 10 are in the middle east. Despite the Gulf war, and despite the presence of Saddam Hussein, we are still going ahead with selling those weapons. We need a firm United Nations arms register which is not just post hoc, as it is at the moment, but which should include details of arms production as well as transfer, and for which there should be a United Nations verification agency. It is extremely important that we have that.

For one reason or another, in the past 10 years we have seen a dramatic failure of our foreign policy. The Government have had to go to war twice-- the Falklands and the Gulf. Twice we have sent troops abroad to fight an enemy who is equipped with British, western and European hardware--among them French Mirages and British destroyers. That is unacceptable. The Government should go ahead with the comprehensive test ban treaty, with the United Nations arms register and with all the major political gestures that I mentioned so that we do not have to send British troops anywhere in the world in vain a third time.

8.31 pm

Sir Charles Morrison (Devizes) : The collapse of the Warsaw pact, the main cause and main objective of defence policy and defence expenditure since the pact was signed, has, without doubt, created a real and hoped for opportunity for savings on defence. However, it is worth noting and may be salutary to recall that it was the continuing and growing cost of defence and sophisticated modern weaponry, and the effect of that on the economy of the USSR, apart from the firm stance of NATO, which ultimately led to the break-up of the Warsaw pact.

Be that as it may, British defence expenditure over the past 45 years has helped to achieve the main objective of removing the threat from the Soviet bloc. None the less, that does not mean that worldwide peace has broken out, nor that global stability holds sway. In some ways, there is more instability now, stemming from the fragmentation of the Soviet empire, than there was when there was an obvious and controlled bloc in our view.

That point was made by the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), although I have to admit that I was somewhat bemused by his speech. I am sorry that he is not in his place now. He started by deploring, very

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properly, inadequate preparation for warfare prior to 1939. He then went on to talk about instability and ended by saying that we should cut our expenditure still more. That would be a strange attitude in the light of the world scene.

Yugoslavia may not be unique. No one can foretell what developments there will be in the Russian republics. Elsewhere, the middle east is hardly a haven of happiness and joy. In many parts of the world, strife is only just below the surface, and here at home we still have the major responsibility of Northern Ireland. In that regard especially, whatever sophisticated weaponry we may have, it is literally soldiers on the ground who are most important. Yet it is now that it is proposed that the Army should be cut by 25 per cent. Just after the Falklands, I congratulated the then Secretary of State for Defence on the outcome. His reply was to the effect, "Do not congratulate me ; congratulate the armed forces for their remarkable ability to improvise." Improvisation and a little luck on the part of the armed forces have probably got this country out of many a scrape. However, situations can develop only too easily in which that is impossible, and in which the Army is overstretched to breaking point. In a world that continues to be dangerous, the Government must err on the side of caution. A cut of 25 per cent. does not reflect that, so my first point is that the cuts go too far, too fast and too soon.

My second point involves the nature of the cuts. In his statement on 23 July, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence said that they required

"painful choices and difficult decisions."--[ Official Report , 23 July 1991, Vol. 195, c. 1038.]

My right hon. Friend has never spoken a truer word, and I sympathise with him on the dilemmas that he faced.

In my county there is anguish that the Duke of Edinburgh's regiment, already an amalgamation, is to be amalgamated again. We have heard again and again in the course of the debate that elsewhere the anguish is repeated. In Scotland, there is a crescendo of rage and frustration.

I will refer especially to the Household Division. At a time of change, there is no reason why the regiments that the Household Division contains should be exempt from change, but as there is change, it must be remembered that those regiments have a dual role, first, as fighting regiments and, secondly, in respect of London ceremonial and public duties to which my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Sir D. Price) properly referred. All informed opinion is that there will have to be cuts in London ceremonial and pageantry if the proposed cuts go ahead. Such a consequence would be a result of an incredibly short-sighted view of London ceremonial by the Ministry of Defence.

The English tourist board has told me that the value of overseas tourism in London is £4.3 billion per annum. According to a recent survey, almost half of all those visitors want to see some aspect of London ceremonial. Even if the changing of the guard is retained, other forms of ceremonial, such as the Tower Guard, will go and even the trooping the colour will be at risk, reducing enormously the tourist attraction of London in comparison with many other cities either in the United Kingdom or, more importantly, elsewhere in the world, especially in Europe.

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It is difficult to persuade oneself that the proposed changes to the Household Cavalry and Foot Guards have been properly thought through. It is far easier to convince oneself that they have not. The Blues and Royals were amalgamated only a few years ago and that amalgamation proved to be a great success. On this occasion, the Life Guards would have been very happy with an outward amalgamation. That would have retained two Household Cavalry service regiments from which to assign men to the mounted squadrons in London. Instead, there is to be an anomalous two-cap-badge service regiment, and it is generally believed that that regiment will have insufficient men to train for and to sustain the mounted ceremonial squadrons in London. In short, the proposals for the Household Cavalry Regiment combined or amalgamated--however one refers to it--are impractical.

An outward amalgamation for the Life Guards is apparently now impossible, but I understand that it is proposed that there should be a corps reconnaissance regiment in the Territorial Army. Much as I admire the Territorial Army, which will be debated later in the year, or early next year, I question whether the provision of such a regiment is an appropriate role for it. Surely a reconnaissance regiment--above all at corps level-- should be immediately available to the corps commander as reconnaissance should precede any action. It is unlikely that the TA could provide such immediacy. Surely the role should be filled by a regular regiment. If that point is conceded, it seems to me that that regular regiment should be the senior cavalry regiment of the British Army--the Life Guards.

On 18 September, my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Armed Forces wrote to me in reply to a letter that I wrote to the Secretary of State on 8 August about the planned changes in the Household Division. My right hon. Friend said :

"the concept of the combined regiments originated from the Life Guards and the Blues and Royals themselves".

If I may say so, that is bunk--and that is putting it mildly. My right hon. Friend went on to say that the combined regiment "is seen by all concerned as the best way forward for the two original regiments".

I do not know who are the "all concerned" to whom my right hon. Friend has spoken. They are none of the "all concerned" to whom I have spoken, and they are certainly not past or present members of the regiments affected.

On the other hand, my right hon. Friend also said that the basic structure of the new Household Cavalry combined armoured reconnaissance regiment would consist of four squadrons. As I understand it, that means four sabre squadrons plus one headquarters squadron--that is, five squadrons. I then asked my right hon. Friend what the comparison was between that regiment-- the new regiment to be formed--and the other new regiment to be formed from the 13th/18th Royal Hussars and the 15th/19th King's Royal Hussars, and whether they would be similar to the Life Guards and Blues and Royals regiments. In his reply, my right hon. Friend said that the new combined 13th/18th and 15th/19th regiment

"will also fulfil the armoured reconnaissance role and will do so with four squadrons."

I suppose that, again, that means five squadrons. I seek an assurance from my right hon. Friend that that is correct. If it is, what it actually means is that the two armoured reconnaissance regiments between them will have 10

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squadrons--eight sabre squadrons and two headquarters squadrons. It would not be stretching things too far to have a regular corps reconnaissance regiment, which I mentioned just now, and to have the other two regiments revert to their normal size. We should then have three regiments, each of which would have four squadrons, making up 12 squadrons all told. In other words, there would be an addition of only two squadrons over and above what the Ministry of Defence is currently planning. I hope that my right hon. Friend will consider that point again.

Meanwhile, whereas the Army is to be cut by 25 per cent., the three senior Foot Guard regiments are to be cut by 50 per cent., as my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh has already said. The overall cuts in the five regiments of the Foot Guards amount to 37.5 per cent. I am also told that the retention of only five battalions instead of eight makes the Foot Guards arms plot--the movement of battalions between London and operational tasks outside it--impossible to manage. Thus there is no hope of giving guardsmen sufficient variety as between their London duties and their duties outside, and that is almost certain to have a very serious effect on recruiting. It seems to me that that is an odd way to sustain what are arguably the finest regiments in the British Army. Therefore, I implore my right hon. Friend to review his cuts and the way in which they are being imposed.

8.44 pm

Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) : I was a signatory of an amendment to the defence estimates which, tragically, has not been selected and will therefore not be voted on later this evening. I shall nevertheless try to express the view behind it. We are asked to approve defence estimates involving 4 per cent. of gross national product. Nearly £24 billion is due to be spent by this country on defence. I support a position which would lead to a substantial cut in arms expenditure at least to the European average. That alone would release £7.5 billion. The money could be well spent initially on financing arms conversion so that those working in defence industries are not thrown on to the jobs scrap heap. It could also be used to expand and improve health services, education and housing, and to deal with the myriad social problems afflicting people in Britain.

I also think that we should look at things on a wider world scale. I quote from "World Military and Social Expenditures 1991" by Ruth Legar Sevard. She and many other colleagues have put together a series of statistics related to the problems facing the world which show that 100 million people are homeless, 900 million are illiterate, nearly 1 billion are chronically underfed and a further 1 billion are certainly suffering from malnourishment. We cannot be satisfied with a world afflicted with so many problems if all that we are doing is to pile on it ever-increasing amounts of arms expenditure. Britain has suffered from the cold war. Like many other hon. Members, my experience of growing up was dominated by the cold war. Those of us who advocated unilateral nuclear disarmament throughout that period were always told that it was absolutely impossible. Yet unilateral action is what has been taken by Gorbachev and Bush--and it has met with a response : there has been a

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significant reduction in the number of intercontinental ballistic missiles and a stand-off of many of the more locally ranged nuclear weapons. That unilateral action has had a considerable impact. We must also assess what we shall be doing from now on. I never believed that NATO was a particularly necessary organisation because I did not accept that NATO represented more than a hot pursuit of cold war. Surely now is the time not for a reassessment of NATO to give it a political, and an increased out-of-area, role, but for the disbanding of NATO--an end to a military alliance that has cost so much and damaged so much of the social infrastructure of countries that are its members. The Warsaw pact has gone and I hear military planners say, "Where is the threat now? Why must we keep nuclear weapons?" Nuclear weapons are supposed to be a deterrent, but they have not prevented wars from taking place in central America. They did not stop the Iran-Iraq war, the Gulf war or the numerous other wars that have taken place around the world--wars in which 20 million people have died since 1945.

Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow) : They are still dying in Iraq. According to the university of Illinois, kids in Iraq are dying at a rate of 500 a day. Does not that infringe the 1989 international protocol on children and protocol 1 of the 1977 agreement on human rights?

Mr. Corbyn : I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I shall come to the situation in Iraq in a moment and I shall respond then to the point that he made.

I have a question to ask those who now advocate that we should continue to hold nuclear weapons and those who advocate the construction of the Trident submarine. At the moment, there are 51, 000 nuclear warheads in the world. There have been 1,814 nuclear tests since 1945, all of which have resulted in some degree of fallout and all of which have caused illness and harm. The serious nuclear explosion at Chernobyl will cause 2,000 deaths from cancer across northern Europe. The use of nuclear weapons is absolutely inconceivable and that was described graphically by Bruce Kent at a meeting that I attended recently. He said that firing a nuclear weapon was like firing a rifle containing two bullets : one which comes out of the barrel and the other which comes out of the back of the rifle and shoots the rifle holder through the head. That is the logic of nuclear weapons.

According to the defence estimates the Trident submarine programme is due to cost £9.8 billion. I deplore that and I believe that the programme should be stopped. I would like to think that on the first day that a Labour Government take office they will immediately cancel the fourth Trident submarine and decommission the other three.

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett : My hon. Friend should be careful with his figures. They refer to the production cost. They do not take into account the through-life costs, which are double that figure.

Mr. Corbyn : I have obviously understated the case because I am cautious.

Mr. Harry Cohen (Leyton) : I have a press release from Greenpeace which states that the cost of Trident is in excess of £23 billion. That comprises the Government's capital cost of £9.8 billion with an additional £2.5 billion

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of identifiable capital costs and lifetime and decommissioning costs of another £10.67 billion. That amounts to more than £23 billion. That is the true cost of Trident.

Mr. Corbyn : We would do better to spend £23 billion feeding the world's hungry and to prevent the preventable deaths of young children around the world instead of constructing a nuclear missile system. We could also release the undoubted technical brilliance of many of the people who design and build those submarines and allow them to do something much more useful.

I make no apology for the fact that throughout my adult life I have been a member of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. I intend to continue to be a CND member because I want a nuclear-free world and significantly less to be spent on armaments than is being spent at the moment. We cannot continue to be blind to the realities in the rest of the world and to spend such huge amounts on high technology armaments.

The defence estimates produce significant cuts in the number of soldiers, sailors and Air Force personnel. However, they envisage enormous expenditure on high technology weapons. We urgently need an arms conversion programme. We also need real action to eliminate the arms trade, which is the most bloodthirsty trade in the world. Between 1968 and 1988, $588 billion worth of arms were exported, many of them to repressive regimes, and many of the weapons were used to repress people who were demanding social justice for themselves. I hope that we can end the arms trade once and for all.

I refer now to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell). I visited Kurdistan in August as a guest of the Kurdistan Front. I was struck by the beauty of the place and also by the stench of death that hangs over the country. That stench does not stem simply from the Gulf war--appalling as everything to do with that war has been. I did not support the war and I have not changed my opinions in that regard. The stench emanated also from the Iran-Iraq war.

I visited a scrap metal yard beside the road where various people were trying to make a little money by selling bits of scrap. When I looked at the markings on the shell cases that they were selling, I saw that they came from China, the Soviet Union, the United States, Israel, South Africa, Brazil, and from other places all over the world. We can imagine the arms manufacturers and dealers who had made a fortune out of the killing in that war.

I visited a hill on which possibly 100,000 people died in the war of attrition between Iran and Iraq. Kurdish conscripts on one side fought Kurdish conscripts on the other and one useless advance followed another, just like the battles in the first world war when the generals had the same mentality. That again was a product of the arms trade. Western Europe was quite happy to lend money to both sides throughout the Iran-Iraq war and happy to make profits out of that awful war. At the end of the day, a foreign policy initiative must be taken.

The Gulf war has not yet produced a solution to the problems in the region. The Palestinians do not have a homeland, the Gulf is polluted and the oil fires are still burning. The Kurdish people do not have security or peace. In fact, the Turkish air force is now attacking Kurdish positions in Iraq. I visited the village of Xerezok a week after it was bombed by the Turkish air force. It was claimed that the village was a Turkish PKK base. It was not. It was a village of 20 families who had returned to

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their homes after being driven out by Saddam's force two years ago. They had returned to plant crops, build a school and live there. One day a helicopter flew over and they waved to it because they thought that it was bringing them medicines and food. It flew a few miles from the village and American-built jet fighters screamed over the hill and bombed the village with phosphorus bombs which are still there and are still live. The children, however, are dead and are buried in a graveyard alongside a wheat field.

I am led to believe that the coalition forces are operating air security. I cannot believe that Turkish air force planes are taking off without the knowledge--and if it is with the knowledge, it must be with the agreement-- of the United States and British military personnel in the region. If they are taking off without their knowledge and agreement, what is the agreement with Turkey all about? If they are taking off with the agreement of the British and Americans, that is a disgusting spectacle. People who have suffered enough over the past 70 years should not be expected to suffer any more.

In the southern part of Iraq I spoke to a fine person from the Quaker peace mission who had spent three months in Iraq. He had no brief for Saddam Hussein, for the Ba'ath party or for the repression. However, he identified the arms sales to Saddam and the loans and support that he received which made him the strong man that he is while children die because of a lack of food and medicine. For humanity's sake, we should consider the needs of those people as they die in that region.

Wars are basically caused by instability, which arises because of inequality and poverty. Are we going to continue to export arms to corrupt regimes to repress people who demand social justice? Are we going to continue to deny the Palestinians, the Kurds and so many others what we want for ourselves--the right to self-determination and the ability to live a decent life?

Tonight we will sleep in beds and go home without feeling hungry. That will not be the case for millions of people elsewhere. Children will be dying and we are allowing the arms race to continue, the arms stockpiles to grow and the vast expenditure on high-tech weapons to continue when that brilliance could be used to give people a decent standard of living instead of the fear of yet another war. 8.56 pm

Mr. Michael Colvin (Romsey and Waterside) : While I accept the principle of the restructuring of our armed forces to take account of the peace dividend, I, like many hon. Members in this debate, question the wisdom of reducing the Army by 40,000 to only 116,000 personnel. That is too much and it is too soon.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said yesterday that, as a result of international events and reorganisation, the infantry's commitment would be one third less. That may be so in peacetime, but what about in wartime? I am not surprised that the word "overstretch" is used most in criticism of my right hon. Friend's proposals. Thirty-eight battalions may be enough in peacetime--I doubt it--but they will not preserve the peace unless they are also seen to be enough in wartime.

The heaviest flak directed at the Government Front Bench has been on infantry regimental reorganisation. I can understand why. The scrapping of years of history and tradition is an emotional matter because of the damage

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which it can do to identity, kinship, morale and, of course, as a result, recruitment. My right hon. Friend intends to amalgamate the Royal Hampshire regiment with the Queen's regiment, to form one regiment of two battalions. We in Hampshire cannot understand why we cannot keep the two regiments at one battalion strength each. I should like an answer to that point.

Neither the Royal Hampshire regiment, about 90 per cent. of which comprises Hampshire men, nor the Queen's regiment, which has long lost any county identity, is happy about the proposed merger. However, if the merger proceeds, the new regiment must be a true partnership and not a takeover by the Queen's regiment, which currently has three battalions. We want the Hampshire name to be retained in the name of the new regiment and its emblem to be retained in the cap badge and other insignia. By preserving two separate regiments we will not save an additional battalion for the British Army--more is the pity--but the Army Board should have another think about the proposed amalgamation.

Ministers repeatedly refer to the need for our forces to be flexible and mobile to fulfil our new commitment to NATO and elsewhere. I welcome the creation of NATO's new rapid reaction corps, led, as it will be, by Britain, which will contribute an air mobile brigade and, perhaps, an airborne brigade. Our aim is clear but our method is not, which is why I now refer to air transport--tactical and strategic, helicopters and fixed wing.

Since I last raised the subject of support helicopters for the Army we have had time to assess our operations in the Gulf war, when more than half our total support helicopter force was deployed to support only one armoured division--that is, one fifth of our Army--and still the numbers had to be made up by pinching 18 Sea Kings from the Royal Navy. We intend to dedicate only 35 Gazelles and Lynx to our solitary Air Mobile Brigade, while American, French or German equivalent formations would have about 100 mixed attack, reconnaissance and transport helicopters. "Air mobile" is hardly the right name for a military formation which looks as though it may have the greatest difficulty in leaving the ground.

I support the Defence Select Committee's view that the Secretary of State must stop prevaricating and confirm the order for 25 EH101 utility support helicopters, which was first placed as long ago as April 1987.

Longer-haul air transport is provided by our 62 Hercules C130 aircraft. Purchased from the United States more than 20 years ago, they will need to be replaced in the mid-1990s. In the meantime, Marshalls of Cambridge do a superb job keeping them flying. What is the Government's thinking about a replacement? I refer to the improved Lockheed C130J, for which Lockheed would welcome British partners. British Aerospace, Rolls-Royce, Dowty, Lucas, GEC and Marconi are bidding to join a consortium. If the time scale is good, the aircraft would be ready at the right time. We want our companies to have a share in the development of that aircraft so that we can benefit from its sale to third countries.

What is the Ministry of Defence thinking in terms of the future large aircraft, or the so-called FLA, which was proposed by the Euroflag group? The problem is that it will be expensive. It may involve European countries ; but

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it will not be ready until the year 2003. Because of our commitment to the rapid reaction corps we need an answer to that question. Another replacement that will be needed in the late 1990s will be for our Nimrod maritime patrol aircraft. Again, the choice is between a United States aircraft and a European : the modified P3 Orion from Lockheed, because the P7 was cancelled, and the French Atlantique. Hon. Members would like to hear what the Government have to say about that.

The White Paper tries to explain how service personnel and those who are being made redundant can join the property owning democracy, one of the great achievements of the 12 years of Conservative Government. The Government's task force is studying options for extending the right to buy, in conjunction with the Housing Corporation and the voluntary housing movement. I hope that the scheme will be flexible. Retiring military personnel may not want to buy or live the rest of their lives in their military quarters, even if they are allowed to buy. We need a flexible scheme with swapping arrangements with local housing authorities so that military personnel can retire where they want to set up their homes. The Government should liaise closely with the Royal British Legion on housing and on resettlement courses. I question whether a 28-day resettlement course is adequate to prepare an ex-service man for a civilian career.

My constituency contains many married quarters. In all, the Ministry of Defence owns 96,000 married quarters and rents a further 25,000 overseas. That means that it has a total of 121,000 married quarters, yet there are only 28,000 married personnel. I know that many of those quarters are occupied by civilians, but there is obviously a surplus of military accommodation which should be disposed of so that it can be put to greater use. My constituency has a crying need for more of what I would term "social housing" for homeless families. Perhaps the Ministry of Defence could think about leasing some of its surplus accommodation, especially housing that is in need of repair, to the local authorities to help them to deal with their pressing needs.

There have been many references to the future of the Household brigade, and especially to the Foot Guards, three battalions of which will go into so- called "suspended animation"--whatever that may mean. The Foot Guards perform their operational and ceremonial duties in an exemplary fashion and succeed in combining both duties with great skill. That variety has always been of immense value, but given that they are stationed in the centre of London, they have a third role to play. It relates to the security of the capital of our country. They are here to deal with the unexpected. As has already been said, they will be stretched in trying to combine their ceremonial duties with their operational role and there could be a case--

Sir Nicholas Bonsor (Upminster) : Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Colvin : I am afraid that I cannot because I am watching the clock.

There could be a case for including the Foot Guards in our air mobile force so that they could be lifted in and out of central London by helicopters-- provided that we have the helicopters that we all want.

In conclusion, despite the criticism from the Back Benches and the calls for Ministers to think again, the

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defence of the realm is still as safe in Conservative hands as it would be unsafe in the hands of a Labour Government whose only firm commitment would be to lop £6,000 million off the defence budget. 9.7 pm

Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow) : I do not know whether it is any comfort to Ministers, but, in candour, and as one who comes from the recruiting area of the Royal Scots, in my judgment it is sensible to merge the King's Own Scottish Borderers with the Royal Scots. I hope that the two regiments will enjoy the success of other amalgamations.

In view of the time constraints, I shall put my speech in question form.

First, hon. Members seem to assume that the Gulf war was a success, but 4.5 million children are suffering in Iraq and are dying at the rate of 500 a day. Those are the figures produced by the University of Illinois. There are horrifying stories from the Quakers and Jim Fine, from Oxfam and Mark Turpin, and from Critical Eye who have returned from the area.

Therefore, I should like to ask the Minister the following questions about sanctions.

What is the legal position in the committing of the international crime of genocide in violation of the international convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide of 1948? The second question is also legal : what is the position in relation to the universal declaration of human rights of 1948, which this country has signed?

Thirdly, what is the position in relation to the 1989 convention on the rights of the child, which this country has signed?

Fourthly, what is the legal position about the systematic violation of the special protection of international humanitarian law that was guaranteed to children by the fourth Geneva convention and the additional protocol of 1977? It is reported that the conditions for children are inhuman, degrading, cruel and genocidal. We must distinguish between the humanitarian problems and any other problems that may exist which I do not have time to go into relating to chemical, biological and, indeed, nuclear weapons. The bombing of Tuweitha should at least be monitored for radioactivity.

What is the Government's position on the termination of the international economic embargo and all forms of bilateral economic sanctions? Massive humanitarian relief is needed. That is not only the opinion of my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) and several others on the Labour Back Benches but the considered judgment of the most senior officials of the United Nations who in name were responsible for organising the force that went to the Gulf.

Precisely what is the Government's attitude to the problems that have been clearly identified and the need to raise some of the sanctions on Iraqi oil sales, identified in particular by Prince Sadruddin Aga Khan? We as members of the United Nations are going against precisely some of the assessments that the United Nations has made. Do the Government accept those UN reports or do they not?

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9.11 pm

Dr. John Reid (Motherwell, North) : Debates such as this always engender in me a certain amount of humility at not only the learning and academic knowledge but the practical experience that hon. Members on both sides bring to them. It is utterly impossible to cover all the points raised by all those who have spoken tonight but perhaps I can mention one or two.

The hon. Member for Eastleigh (Sir D. Price) brought a great depth of knowledge and practical experience to the debate. He dealt with the problems of the Merchant Navy and its decline and with the Territorial Army, which has been mentioned by several other hon. Members.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) always graces us with his presence on these occasions and it always turns out to be worthwhile. He showed a great deal of insight and gave valued advice on the arms trade, arms production and the role of the United Nations. Above all, he dealt with the definition or redefinition of security--an issue which was patently missing from the speeches made by Ministers but about which I hope to say something tonight.

The hon. Member for Bexleyheath (Mr. Townsend) pointed out that he had called for a review. He showed that all wisdom is not monopolised on this side of the House. He also questioned the validity of Falklands defence.

My hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr. McWilliam) pointed out the lack of strategy in the course pursued by the Government, the overstretch and the importance of cap badges. He also gave us the view from Nepal, following a visit there, on the decimation of the Gurkhas. The point was raised by several other hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Ruislip -Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson), who usually brings his wisdom on these matters to such debates. The hon. Members for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton), for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Boscawen) and for Davyhulme (Mr. Churchill) all criticised, and they were by no means exclusive, the depth of cuts in the infantry. That is another issue which I shall mention tonight. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris) and the hon. Member for Newark (Mr. Alexander) dwelt on an issue which we have perhaps passed over too lightly on these occasions. They spoke about the personal problems of housing, homelessness and redundancy faced by service men and women. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Attercliffe (Sir P. Duffy) usefully pointed out the complexity of the new risks and the absolute necessity for complexity of response. He mentioned the key role of NATO and the dangers of overstretch and, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton (Mr. McFall), he raised some serious questions about the number of infantry battalions that have been cut. My hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton was the only Member to ask serious questions about the safety of nuclear submarines. The hon. and learned Member for Perth and Kinross (Sir N. Fairbairn), in a speech which I think we call spirited on these occasions, referred in almost biblical language to the four fallacies of Ministers. He gave a sterling defence of the Scottish regiments and condemned the ill-thought-out action and obstinacy of Ministers. [Interruption.] I see that he is now in his place. The debate has been worthwhile if only to see the broad front constituted by the hon. and learned Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for

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Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galloway), who last night spoke in similar spirited language in defence of the Scottish regiments.

The one thing that every contributor had in common was an attempt to deal with change. There are periods in history when the rate of change alters dramatically. It is always difficult to know, except in retrospect, when that rate of change goes from what mathematicians would call the arithmetical to the geometrical progression, or what philosophers would call from the quantitative to the qualitative change. That is the nature of the type of analysis that we are all trying to undertake. As I have said, it is easier in retrospect. Hegel, who, may I say for the benefit of Tory Members, was a German philosopher, said that the owl of Minerva spreads his wings only at the coming of the dusk. Unlike mathematicians and philosophers, we are not detached observers of these changes ; we are participants in them. We hope that we are active participants.

Although this is difficult, there is widespread recognition that we are living in one of those periods of history that future generations will look back on and perhaps even give the nomenclature "revolutionary". It is a watershed. The continent of Europe, which for most of the post-war period appeared to be on the brink of disaster, now appears to be on the brink of lasting peace. Whether in retrospect we shall be praised by future generations for taking the challenge of those opportunities-- [Interruption.] --or whether we shall be condemned-- [Interruption.] If the Minister does not stop interrupting me, I may give him what we in Glasgow call Harthill Latin and I shall explain to him later what that is. As he is now being courteous enough to keep quiet, I shall continue. Whether we shall be condemned for having missed that opportunity or praised for taking it remains to be seen. Either way, it is important for all those involved in the debate about the future of European and global security to be aware of the burden which is being placed on all our shoulders.

The burden has been placed most particularly on the shoulders of Ministers. Sadly, they have proven incapable of shaping up to the task. [Interruption.] I expected more of the Secretary of State and his Ministers, given their previous relish in playing defenders of the realm and their much-vaunted military background. I thought that we would get a little of the three Cs--control, command and communication. Instead, we have had from the Secretary of State the three Ds--dozing, dithering and debilitation. He seems incapable of facing up to the challenges. During the whole debate his only firm promise has been, "We will not change our mind. There will not be a review." He had better the Secretary of State for Scotland. Last night, when the Secretary of State for Scotland was questioned about the regiments, in particular whether the Government had decided, whether there would be a change and whether there would be a review--this appeared in this morning's Glasgow Herald --he said that these things

"are produced every year and over the next two or three years I have no doubt that the decisions announced by Tom King will be reviewed."

As I said, the rate of change has gone from arithmetical to geometrical.

I have news for the Secretary of State for Scotland. Tom King, whom he quoted there, will not be Secretary of

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