House of Commons Hansard Debates for 1 Nov 1991

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years been dreamed of by many, myself among them. I pay tribute in particular to Shimon Peres, the leader of the Israeli Labour party, who has put his party's interests and his own prospects of premiership second to the convening of such a conference. I pay tribute above all to James Baker, the United States Secretary of State, without whose patience, persistence and determination the conference would never have happened.

Yet it was Mikhail Gorbachev, in his opening address in Madrid, who most accurately assigned the credit for such a marvellous development. I say "marvellous" even though I share the Foreign Secretary's view and the view of President Bush that there are many hazards along the way. However, it was Mikhail Gorbachev, who, more than any other person, has been responsible for the ending of the cold war, who rightly said that the ending of the cold war made the middle east peace talks a reality.

The end of the cold war has, of course, brought difficulties. With the end of communism, problems long buried under the paraphernalia of repression have surfaced. The most obvious is the tragedy of Yugoslavia, to which the Foreign Secretary has referred. The assault on Dubrovnik is not the worst event in the conflict, but the jeopardising of an international treasure such as that beautiful city exemplifies the savage and futile nature of the fighting in Yugoslavia. I am relieved that the flotilla has now got through with supplies, but I repeat my urgent request for the Government to seek the reconvening of the Security Council and to sponsor a resolution proposing comprehensive international sanctions, including an oil embargo, to supplement the United Nations arms ban. I agree with the Foreign Secretary that that ban must be much more resolutely enforced.

In the Soviet Union, instability triggered by the failure of perestroika, but made plain for all to see through the success of glasnost, made possible the August coup, which the instincts for freedom of the Russian people speedily destroyed. The certainties of the iron curtain--the west united in NATO against any potential threat from the east, the Warsaw pact satellites rigidly controlled by a monolithic Soviet Union--have gone. NATO is no longer sure of its function. Six weeks ago, the NATO war game in Germany was handicapped by lack of an identifiable adversary for the NATO forces. Instead of hostile red forces, NATO's troops were required to contend with politically neutral gold coloured forces. The alliance has lost an enemy and not yet found a role.

In Brussels this week the NATO meeting suggested that the alliance is even moving towards political and security co-operation with ex-Warsaw pact countries. That demonstrates the transformation of the scene in only a couple of years.

At home, negotiated disarmament in the conventional forces in Europe process--together with the shambles caused by the Government's defence cuts, with Cabinet Ministers publicly at odds with one another over the end of historic regiments--has meant that since "Options for Change" was published 40,000 jobs in the defence industries have been lost.

The Foreign Secretary referred to what other political parties have been saying about the fate of the Gordon Highlanders. He referred to Opposition parties creating scares. I hope that the Minister of State, when he replies,

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will be good enough to tell the House what he thinks of the scares that were apparently created by the Secretary of State for Transport when he was in the Kincardine and Deeside constituency yesterday for the by-election campaign. He seemed to suggest, as did the Secretary of State for Scotland, that the decision of the Secretary of State for Defence on the future of the Gordon Highlanders was once again open to review. I hope that the Minister of State will state clearly, so that the House and the voters of Kincardine and Deeside can understand, whether the Government's decision, announced by the Secretary of State for Defence just before the summer recess, will be firmly adhered to or, as the Secretary of State for Transport indicated yesterday, that the matter is now being reopened. I think that the entire country has a right to know.

Mr. Hurd : The right hon. Gentleman is at it again. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State will deal with the matter when he replies. Will the right hon. Gentleman say how many jobs would be lost in the defence industries, how many installations such as Rosyth would be closed and how many regiments would disappear completely if the Labour party's policies on defence were ever implemented?

Mr. Kaufman : As it happens, I am coming to that very matter. I shall deal with it fully. I say to the Foreign Secretary that the Government must state clearly where they stand on their defence review. We have had three Cabinet Ministers saying different things in less than three weeks. The people, and especially the people of Kincardine and Deeside before next Thursday, have a right to know with the utmost clarity where the Government stand. Instead of the silly intervention that the Foreign Secretary made, I thought that he would give us the answer that we are wanting. But perhaps he does not know the answer. Perhaps it will have to be worked out before half-past two so that the Minister of State can give it to us. I am concerned about the loss of jobs in the defence industries that has been brought about by the Government's shambolic defence review, by the results of negotiations in the CFE process, and by technical change in the defence industries. At British Aerospace 10, 000 jobs have been lost. Six thousand have been lost at Rolls-Royce. There have been 1,500 lost at GEC, and more at Yarrow, Westland, Thorn EMI, Dowty, the SEL and at Marconi Underwater Systems. At Marconi, workers were told that the closure of the factory at Neston was to be

"blamed on the reduction in defence spending since the end of the Cold War."

We are told that up to 300,000 more jobs are at risk in the defence industries in the first half of the decade. Yet the Government have no policy on this matter, as I shall illustrate. I shall, however, state clearly the Labour party's policy.

The problems that we face are great, but the opportunities that are provided by the end of the cold war are even greater for those with the vision to understand them and the resolution to grasp them. The middle east peace conference is one example. The mood to bring to an end at last the agony of Cambodia, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Wareing) referred, is another. The Opposition are wholly opposed to the participation in any Cambodian regime of the blood-stained Khmer Rouge. I take the opportunity of

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saying that we condemn the Government's covert military assistance, which was revealed by questions by my hon. Friends. Without that questioning, the Government's convert military assistance to co-belligerents of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia would never have been admitted.

The United Nations, with a Security Council that is at least capable in Cambodia and elsewhere of functioning effectively, and with the co- operation that led to the liberation of Kuwait as an example, can play a more constructive role than ever before. It is already seeking to do so in the western Sahara, where the Labour party is adamant that the plebiscite must take place in January, as scheduled. I hope that the Government will make it clear to the Moroccan Government and the United Nations that they will not tolerate any departure from the agreed timetable for the western Sahara plebiscite.

The United Nations can take action, as it has, greatly to the credit of the Secretary-General, in the freeing of hostages held in Lebanon. We rejoice in the freeing, at long last, of John McCarthy and Jackie Mann, and we look forward eagerly to the release of Terry Waite. We should not forget Ian Richter, wrongfully imprisoned in Iraq, from whom I recently received a most moving letter written in the gaol in which he is so wrongfully incarcerated.

The United Nations should act in Cyprus. The Opposition deplore the frustration by Turkey of the admirable initiative lauched by President Bush for talks on Cyprus. We urge the United Nations to renewed efforts to convene talks that can reunite the island in a sovereign structure, providing justice for both Greek and Turkish Cypriots. I have been invited to Cyprus, and I shall be having talks with the President at the end of next week. I shall tell him of the clear view of my party that there must be a reunion of that island in the federal structure to which President Vassiliou has committed himself, and that the invading Turkish forces must be withdrawn. Perhaps the United Nations could help in Kashmir. I am well aware of the concern of the Indian Government, which I understand, about any possibility of outside interference. However, having visited on two occassions this year the incredibly beautiful but ineffably miserable state of Jammu and Kashmir, I am sure that the time has come for a solution to such a grievous problem. The good offices of both the United Nations and the Commonwealth should be explored--not to meddle, to arbitrate, or to mediate, but to provide good offices both to India and to Pakistan, which are both old and close friends of our country. Amid all the charges and counter-charges about Kashmir, it is important to remember that, whoever is to blame for the problem, it is not the people of Jammu and Kashmir--the Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Sikhs and Buddhists who are suffering, losing their livelihoods and, all too often, losing their lives in that tragic situation.

There is scope for a new and expanded role not only for the United Nations and the Commonwealth but for the other international organisations to which the Foreign Secretary referred--NATO, CSCE, the Group of Seven and the European Community. Of course, in addition to her role in those organisations, Britain has foreign and Commonwealth policy issues to deal with on her own. Hong Kong can only be dealt with bilaterally between China and ourselves. Unfortunately, the United Kingdom, as on so many of these issues, is too often inactive or isolated. A couple of months ago the Prime Minister made a brief visit to the colony, but while there he spent more

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time with one ultra-wealthy donor to Tory party funds than with the whole of Hong Kong's democratic movement. He dismissed curtly the clearly expressed aspirations of many citizens of Hong Kong for accelerated and enhanced democracy. In the Foreign Secretary's brief reference to Hong Kong today, he said nothing about democracy. In the Commonwealth, last month's Heads of Government meeting in Harare showed that, once again, the United Kingdom remained isolated on the issue of South African sanctions. When the Foreign Secretary said that some countries did not agree with the United Kingdom, he actually meant that all countries disagreed with the United Kingdom on that issue.

In NATO, the Government have fought a rearguard action against reality. I am amazed at the effrontery of the Gracious Speech in referring to developments that

"permit changes to NATO's strategy",

because the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and the Secretary of State for Defence have fought doggedly against every change in NATO strategy. They advocated modernisation of the Lance missile when everyone else was against it. They championed first use of nuclear missiles and the nuclear flexible response strategy, when every rational observer knew that such stances were obsolete. They said that nuclear disarmament in Europe had gone far enough. The Government, who were against every change, are now participating complaisantly in huge NATO nuclear arms cuts. While they forlornly try to pin on the Labour party the label of unilateral nuclear disarmers, they are indulging in a bout of unilateral nuclear disarmament-- as announced by the Secretary of State for Defence. Yesterday the Prime Minister, in his silly speech, accused the Labour party of changing its policies on defence after eight years. The Government have changed their policies on defence in less than eight months, meekly carrying out policies that they have sworn to oppose. Again and again at the Dispatch Box, in answers to questions that I put repeatedly to him, the Foreign Secretary urbanely explained why it was quite impossible for the Government to abandon policies that the Gracious Speech now claims credit for abandoning and to which the right hon. Gentleman wisely did not refer. The Government have performed a remarkable somersault on Europe, not in eight months but in less than half that time. It is only three months since the Foreign Secretary, in this House, assured me that the cherished Tory notion of the hard ecu common currency was still on the negotiating table. It was not on the table at Apeldoorn when the Chancellor discussed the issues. It is not on the table for Maastricht. For the Government, it is now a single currency or nothing. The right hon. Members for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) and for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) want nothing, and certainly not a single currency. What the Government want, no one knows ; they have no policy.

I want to know the Government's position on the extension of majority voting in the Council of Ministers. As recently as June, the Foreign Secretary told the House that the Government oppposed extensions of majority voting. Now the position is far less clear. There are reports in the press today that the Government are even ready to accept majority voting on some foreign policy matters. I carefully noted the words that the Foreign Secretary used in his speech. He spoke about not liking majority voting "on matters of substance" and on "substantial decisions".

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Does that mean that he is opposed to all majority voting on foreign policy matters, or only to some majority voting on some foreign policy matters? A few moments ago, the right hon. Gentleman intervened with alacrity on another point, and I shall readily give way to him again if he is ready to tell the House clearly whether he is opposed to any majority voting on foreign policy matters, or opposed only to majority voting on matters of substance. If the latter, will he please define "matters of substance"? Well, as Mark Antony said in his funeral oration,

"I pause for a reply."

The Foreign Secretary cannot reply because the Government are shifting their position day by day.

When the issue of federalism was first mooted at Luxembourg in June, the Foreign Secretary was so shocked that he behaved like an aged aunt jumping on a chair at the sight of a mouse. The press reported him as moaning, "We've got real problems with this." He seems far more relaxed now. When I watched him in a recent television interview, he said in that offhand manner of his that federalism was only a word. What is the Government's attitude? Will they accept the word "federalism" because they are not worried about it, or does it mean so much that the Government cannot accept it? Once again, the Foreign Secretary, who a few minutes ago intervened on a point to which he could not give me a response, sits in his place unable to give an answer. He knows that he and the Prime Minister will follow the Thatcher line of loud protests, followed by a cave-in on that issue, as on so many others.

It is time that the Government told us exactly where they stand on majority voting, the powers of Parliament, federalism, a single currency, a single European bank. In July, in one of his many slips of the tongue, the Prime Minister told the House that he believed that a central bank should be accountable to a democratically elected body, but No. 10 Downing street than had to give a briefing to explain why the Prime Minister made that statement, and implied that he had not done so.

When the Foreign Secretary contested the Conservative leadership just under a year ago--and, for its sake, his party would have done well to elect him- -one of his campaign promises was that we would be getting a White Paper on Europe. After nearly a year, we still have not seen one.

Mr. Hurd : I lost the leadership contest, but the right hon. Gentleman did get a White Paper a little later.

Mr. Kaufman : Did it set out the Government's position on majority voting, federalism, the European Parliament, and a single currency? The right hon. Gentleman could have fooled me. As the Prime Minister has promised the House a two-day debate in less than three weeks, I hope that we shall reach a sensible conclusion about all those substantial issues, and that the White Paper will be published before that debate, setting out the Government's negotiating position at Maastricht. It would be helpful if the House could study positive Government proposals.

During the summer, the Prime Minister kept saying how essential it was for him to be present at Maastricht in December in order to make decisions, but the word from

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Downing street now is that the Prime Minister's greatest ambition at Maastricht is to fend off making any decisions. The would-be statesman is now an aspirant escapologist.

The Government's position on other issues is only too clear. In the Queen's Speech, they refer to the requirement for

"full, unconditional compliance by Iraq with the United Nations Security Council's Resolutions, including the disposal of its missiles and weapons of mass destruction."

I entirely agree. As the Foreign Secretary knows, Labour has fully supported every United Nations decision on Iraq and will continue to do so. In fact, we urged the Government to seek resolutions when they were not always willing. I should be a good deal more impressed with the Government's determination to deal with weapons of mass destruction in Iraq if they did not have such questionable record on assisting Iraq to obtain a nuclear capability.

The Government still have not come clean about the information revealed in a Select Committee appendix. I wrote to the Secretary of State, and my right hon. and hon. Friends wrote to the Prime Minister, but we have not received a reply. Nor have the Government responded to reports in Conservative newspapers such as The Times and The Sunday Times which were apparently augmented by evidence brought back from Iraq by United Nations inspectors, and the details of which were plastered all over those newspapers. When will we have an honest statement from the Government about arms supplies of every kind that they undoubtedly licensed for export to Iraq? An extremely long list is available for everyone to see. I wrote to the Secretary of State, but he has not even begun to justify the Government's action. Perhaps the cheekiest passage in the GraciousSpeech is : "A substantial aid programme aimed at promoting sustainable economic and social progress and good government in developing countries will be maintained."

As my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) has pointed out, Britain's overseas aid budget last year was not maintained but was the lowest ever as a percentage of this country's gross domestic product. It was only 0.27 per cent.--little more than half the 0.51 per cent. provided in Labour's last year in office. The world's needy have been deprived of £10 billion of aid due to the cuts made by the present Government in Labour's programme. How can the Government conceivably justify the untruth of claiming that they are maintaining an aid programme when, according to their own figures, they have halved that provided by Labour?

We still await any perceptible Tory Government initiative in providing aid to the Soviet Union. At Kennebunkport, the Prime Minister staged a public relations stunt about helping the Soviets. Since then there has been a strange silence. Today, the Foreign Secretary could only say that the Prime Minister is still "mobilising"--though what he is mobilising is not at all clear, because very little appears to be happening.

If the Government ever had any ideas about foreign and defence policy, they have run out of them. Labour has a clear programme for action that has been endorsed at successive party conferences, including that held last month. I was grateful for the Foreign Secretary's friendly reference to me at the Conservative party conference, and his acceptance of my expertise on one subject--even though it was only the cinema. However, although the Foreign Secretary can have fun with inaccurate statements

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about Labour policies on the European Community, he cannot have fun with his own--because he does not have a single policy to joke about. Today, I have given him many opportunities to intervene and to clarify the Government's position, but he has not taken them. Professor Roland Smith, the former chairman of British Aerospace, said that

"Defence conversion is an important consideration, which is already being pursued vigorously by our European aerospace partners." The United States Congress has also sensibly turned its attention to the essential diversification process. The House of

Representatives issued a bulky and authoritative report, but in this year's defence White Paper the Government stated, in respect of diversification :

"It is not for the Government to seek to influence such decisions."

Labour rejects that short-sighted Tory approach. We do not believe that the nation can afford hundreds of thousands of redundancies in high technology industries. That is why--unlike Tory Ministers, who snubbed approaches from heads of the defence industries, and the press reported that the Prime Minister himself ignored an approach from the defence consortium--Labour will work with industry, trade unions, academic experts and others to help the defence industries to make a positive contribution to national output and employment. Labour will establish a defence diversification agency to save skills and talents that the nation cannot afford to lose.-- [Interruption.] Conservative Members can chortle if they like, but at the general election the three quarters of a million people who work in the defence industries will be able to compare Labour's positive policies with the Conservative's total absence of policies. Mr. Hurd rose --

Mr. Kaufman : Here we go again.

Mr. Hurd : I pay the right hon. Gentleman a compliment in seeking to answer his question. Let us get it straight. I am not sure--because of the differences in Labour and Conservative policies--how many extra jobs in the defence industries will be abolished under Labour's plans. I understand that Labour intends to establish an agency. I am sure that that will make a very deep impact on those concerned. Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that all the jobs lost will be replaced as a result of the magic work of that agency? Can he give the House any figures?

Mr. Kaufman : It is clear that none of them will be replaced if the Conservative Government remain in office, because not only have they no policies to deal with the matter but they said in the defence White Paper :

"It is not for the Government to seek to influence such decisions."

The Government are creating the redundancies from which all our constituents are suffering and they are not lifting a finger not only to save jobs but to save the skills of highly trained workers for the nation. In Preston, one meets former British Aerospace workers in whose training the nation invested a great deal of money ; they are now driving taxis. Is that what the Foreign Secretary wants to happen to British high technology?

The Minister of State for the Armed Forces (Mr. Archie Hamilton) : When the right hon. Gentleman talks in those

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terms, he must have some idea about the extra jobs that will go as a result of Labour policies. Will he tell the House how much this will cost?

Mr. Kaufman : No extra jobs will be lost as a result of Labour policies. Unlike the Government, which havers even on the single issue of the Gordon Highlanders, not knowing what they will do, the Labour Government will ensure that the necessary funds are available for the proper defence of the country. That is our clear position on the matter. I am grateful that the Minister intervened, because I am pleased to be able to state clearly and absolutely on the record that the Labour party will provide whatever funds are necessary for the proper defence of our country.

On Hong Kong, we shall take the earliest possible opportunity of consulting representative groups and individuals in the colony, especially the directly elected members of the Legislative Council, about what can practically and sensibly be done to enhance the attenuated and retarded democratic process there. We shall consider direct elections to the Legislative Council and see what can be done to enhance democracy in its functional and nominated sections. I have discussed during my recent visit to Hong Kong the many opportunities for enhancing democracy in both those sections as well as those that will arise as a result of direct elections.

As a Government, we shall wish to consider the relationship of directly elected Legislative Council members to the Executive Council, and whether there are sensible ways of making senior officials as well as the Executive Council more accountable to the Legislative Council. I make that statement fully conscious of the way in which it will be received in the colony, as I have discussed the subject there within the past few weeks.

In the Commonwealth, we shall work with the consensus on South Africa instead of isolating ourselves from it, as the Tories have done. We shall abide by the Commonwealth policy on sanctions and seek to join the Foreign Ministers committee on sanctions, which the Tory Government have boycotted.

Mr. Hurd : The right hon. Gentleman must be aware that, if he abides by the Commonwealth consensus on sanctions with regard to South Africa, he will break the European consensus on that issue.

Mr. Kaufman : We have made it clear that we shall abide by the Commonwealth consensus on sanctions. At the end of the Foreign Secretary's speech he made a great song and dance about the Government's commitment to the Commonwealth. That was a breath of fresh air after the way in which the former Prime Minister behaved towards the Commonwealth over the past 11 years. We take our Commonwealth responsibilities seriously, just as we take our European Community responsibilities seriously.

In the European Community, we shall have to take into account the circumstances existing when we come into office. When we are in office, we shall put forward positive proposals on economic and monetary union, aiming to make a central bank answerable to the economic and financial Ministers' council. We shall put forward positive proposals to achieve economic convergence by agreement on common positive regional and structural policies and other matters.

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We shall put forward positive proposals for greater political progress, including majority voting in the Council of Ministers on social and environmental issues, and an expansion of the powers of the European Parliament.

We shall advocate the widening of the Community, first by urging immediate acceptance of the Austrian and Swedish applications for membership--I cannot understand why there is any delay in accepting them--and then by seeking the adhesion of the other EFTA countries, and, as they become ready for membership, the former communist countries of central and eastern Europe.

We shall oppose a defence role for the Community which would involve the deployment of British troops against the wishes of the British Government and Parliament, or which would create a new nuclear power with 10 new fingers on the nuclear trigger. In the Group of Seven, we shall seek agreement on a new Marshall plan to help the reconstruction of the Soviet Union and other former communist countries--not so much by financial aid, although some will be necessary, as by assisting with investments and credits, and helping with the attainment of stable and convertible currencies and with advice more expert and reliable than that available from the present Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Over our first Parliament, we shall increase the United Kingdom aid budget to the United Nations target of 0.7 per cent. of gross domestic product. We shall seek international action to solve the debt problem. We regard it as unacceptable that last year the World bank collected more in interest and capital repayments from the developing countries than it disbursed in new loans and assistance. In the United Nations we shall seek agreement on an international convention controlling and limiting arms exports. It is obscene that, as international peace talks on the middle east have at last begun, armaments are once more pouring into the middle east and that China is helping Iran to obtain nuclear weapons capability. We shall seek international controls to prevent arms exports to countries with poor human rights records and those with policies of internal repression and records of external aggression.

We shall seek to build on the remarkable September and October initiatives taken by President Bush and President Gorbachev for reducing stocks of long -range nuclear weapons. I was astounded that in a speech lasting more than 50 minutes the Foreign Secretary did not mention the historic moves of President Bush and Gorbachev that have helped to transform the international situation and to make possible deep cuts in armaments through sensible international negotiations.

We believe that Britain should participate in the next round of the START nuclear disarmament negotiations as a partner with the United States. The aim should be to bring about further reductions in world stocks of nuclear weapons. We hope that at an appropriate stage France will join in such talks--President Mitterrand has suggested that, in certain conditions, France would do so--and we would seek to persuade China, too, to take part.

Meanwhile, we shall seek to achieve a comprehensive international nuclear test ban treaty. The United Kingdom may not be a super-power, but, as the Foreign Secretary said, we have a unique role in the world. We are the only

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country that is a member of NATO, the European Community, the Group of Seven, and the Commonwealth, and also a permanent member of the Security Council of the United Nations. That role gives the United Kingdom a great potential which has not been properly exploited by the Tory Government. A Labour Government will seek to realise Britain's true potential.

The Labour party has a clear agenda for action. In eight from now, at the most, the people of Britain will give us the mandate to implement that agenda.

Several hon. Members rose --

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean) : Order. It will be evident to the House that many hon. Members wish to speak in this important debate. I hope that they will help each other by making brief speeches.

11.9 am

Sir Rhodes Boyson (Brent, North) :I propose to refer to five matters dealt with in the Gracious Speech, the first of which concerns the matters of foreign policy to which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary alluded. I must say that, having listened to the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman), I have the impression that the Labour party is on every side but suicide in its assessment of every situation throughout the world.

I know that we are to have a two-day debate before the summit at Maastricht, but I want briefly now to explain my position on Europe--a subject on which genuine differences exist between hon. Members irrespective of their political colour. I voted in 1975 for the continuance of our membership of the common economic market, as we described it at the time. I also welcome the fact that we now have the agreement with EFTA, and I should like to see the free market expanded into eastern Europe and, eventually, a link forged across the Atlantic with America.

I am suspicious of the notion of having one bank and one currency. I say that as a Hayekian, as I should like every bank in the country to be allowed to issue its own currency ; it is not just a question of Europe. The good currencies--the ones that did not inflate--would be the currencies that remained. I remind the House that, 100 years ago, about 48 banks in Britain still issued their own currencies. Just think what that would do for collectors of currency. [Interruption.] I thank the hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes) for reminding the House of the existence of a separate Scottish currency.

One of the things that fuelled inflation in Britain was the move to decimalisation : after decimalisation people did not realise what the value of money was. If we now move to a European currency, we shall experience another period in which people cannot work out its value and that will also mar our domestic harmony.

I am not in favour of having one army, one foreign policy and complete political union in Europe. I shall be interested to see what happens over the next months, but if we are to move in that direction, we should hold a referendum beforehand.

I know that many right hon. and hon. Members wish to speak, so I shall limit my remarks, but I wish briefly to refer to Kashmir, which was mentioned by the right hon. Member for Gorton. I have a large number of people of Indian origin in my constituency. I have also visited

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Kashmir and, many years ago, I was in the services in India. I believe that the only solution to the problem is a return to the Simla agreement calling for a peaceful solution and an end to terrorism. We should place greater emphasis on that agreement, which was signed by both Pakistan and India. Such situations can escalate. In the past, problems between India and Pakistan have led to war and I am sure that no hon. Member would want that to happen again. Reference was made in the Gracious Speech, to local government, and it may not surprise hon. Members to hear that I wish to refer to that question. There has been too much tension between national and local government. Local government is part of the balance of power. We do not want all power vested in central government--or anywhere else, for that matter. The tension that has existed between national and local government under the present Government has been bad for the country. It seems that local and national government are always now of different colours. When the Labour party was in power, all local authorities became Conservative controlled. During 11 years of Conservative Government, more and more local authorities have become Labour controlled, and that has created a clash. In local government, it is important to work towards smaller units wherever possible, because smaller units involve more people and bring the whole process nearer to the people.

I warmly welcome the document, "The Structure of Local Government in England", produced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment in April this year. It says :

There is still a feeling in some areas that history and tradition were perhaps disregarded in the search for administrativew uniformity."

I am sure that many hon. Members will agree with that. Paragraph 27 says :

"The aim would be to achieve the structure which best matches the particular circumstances of each area."

That, too, is excellent. Unfortunately, however, London and the metropolitan areas are to be denied all the advantages that would flow from that. Paragraph 28 states :

"The Government have no plans to change the general structure of local government in London and the metropolitan counties." So the rest of the country is to be allowed to reorganise itself on the basis of its historic boundaries, destroyed 20 years ago, but London and the metropolitan counties, whose boundaries were destroyed 30 years ago, are to be deprived of that right. As a Lancastrian who now represents a London constituency, I find that totally unfair. We in London should have the same opportunity to reorganise on a historical basis. A recent draft report on Brent's boundaries totally ignores what is happening in the rest of the country and merely suggests chipping bits off here, there and everywhere. Some 98 per cent. of my constituents would vote for the return of Wembley tomorrow, if asked. No doubt the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) would say the same of Willesden. My constituents and I intensely resent that discrimination against London. One should never take any area for granted.

My third point concerns the council tax. First, let me emphasise that there is no enthusiasm anywhere in the country for the Labour party's so-called fair rates policy--in essence, a return to the rating system that was, and would remain, so unpopular. As the election approaches,

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I shall use my ammunition against the Labour party on its fair rates policy. For the moment, however, I want us to get our policy right, because that will make it easier for us to destroy the Labour party.

In 1988, I warned that the community charge would not work because it discriminated against the north and those living in low-rated properties. After three years and a whole series of concessions--as well as the Ribble Valley business--we eventually got it right. The problem now is that, although the council tax is right in theory, in practice it will discriminate against London and the south-east--the high-priced areas. I should prefer the Government to make concessions now rather than battling it out for three years and then sorting matters out. It would be nice to know that the listening Government were listening and that changes would be made immediately. It is accepted that property is differently priced throughout the country. After all, we have separate sets of bands for Scotland, England and Wales. But the largest differences are not between Scotland, England and Wales but between the north and south of England, where the disparities in property prices are tremendous. Only 1 per cent. of houses in Greater London are in the bottom band, whereas in the north 47 per cent. of houses are in the bottom band. In greater London, 31 per cent. of houses are in the top three bands, whereas in the north only 4 per cent. are in the top three bands. Those are not anomalies--they are great chasms. In Barnet, 46 per cent. of houses are in the top two bands.

Mr. Wilkinson : And in my constituency.

Sir Rhodes Boyson : My hon. Friend says that the same is true of his constituency. When people in London realise that they are going to have to pay so much more than people in the Ribble Valley area on a similar three or four-bedroomed house, a reverse Ribble Valley factor will apply. People will say, "This is unfair." On this occasion, the recession has hit London and the south much harder than it has the north or the midlands and such discrimination is totally unjust. What we need is a separate set of bands for London and the south-east and possibly for certain other areas of the country. Now that we have accepted the principle of different sets of bands for the council tax, it is merely a question of getting it right. I have a solution for the Secretary of State. There is no point in his sitting up all night in his Department working it out. The London Boroughs Association --a healthy institution and Conservative controlled--has produced a separate set of bands for Greater London. All that is needed is a cyclist from the Department of the Environment--I could suggest one Minister who is very good on a bicycle--to go to the London Boroughs Association and bring back the document setting out those bands and hand it to the Secretary of State, who could announce their adoption some time during the debate. If that happened, a cheer would go up throughout London and the south-east. If it does not happen, the Government will create problems in the south similar to those that occurred with the community charge throughout the north. Concessions should be made now and the matter cleared up.

The 25 per cent. rebate for the single household is not enough. Millions of pensioners, widowers and widows and one-parent families will be much worse off with the 25 per cent. rebate than they were when they paid the community

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charge. They will not like it. They will not rejoice. The fact that they will be worse off sometimes affects voting habits. As a general election is coming, the Government should seek to make sure that we have more people on our side than there are on the other. That is how we win elections--as you know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, with your long experience.

During the last year of collection of the community charge in 1992-92, all those on income support and students should be exempt. They will be exempt when the council tax is introduced. They will therefore resent having to pay the community charge for 1992-93. That will result in a huge debt which could sink the council tax in its first year.

Reference is made in the Gracious Speech to education. I commend the Government's efforts. The present Secretary of State for Education and Science is the first person who has really tried to knock the education system into shape. I commend him for that. The results of the tests for seven-year-olds were published last week. We saw how bad they are, compared with other countries. Our economy will never revive until we get our education system right. Primary school children should be taught by means of phonics--not by means of real books and all this other nonsense. They should be provided with their multiplication tables. There should be a return to old-fashioned teaching, which usually works. Again I commend what the Government are doing. It was the trendies on the Left who followed the policies advocated by Rousseau and Dewey, who said that children should be allowed to run wild and even fall off cliffs, after which they could say, "At least I've discovered something by doing that." They did not believe in sitting children down in classrooms and teaching them. I should welcome the return of a Conservative Government because the Labour party is wedded to the concept of the egalitarian comprehensive school. All our competitors, whether they are socialist, mixed economy or free market countries, have some form of selection--by ability or interest--at either 11, 12 or 14. That is true in Sweden, Russia and Germany. Only the Labour party is trapped in that egalitarian comprehensive concept. I pray every night for the Labour party that it will be released from such a destructive view. During the last 12 years Britain has been an example to other countries as it moved towards the free market. Even the Labour party cheers the Government for that. We have reduced taxation, introduced privatisation and lessened the control of the trade union barons. Our efforts have been watched by the rest of the world. We have created a new industry, with people going around the world lecturing on the benefits of privatisation. Most of them are bankers from the City rather than Members of Parliament. I trust that in its election manifesto the Conservative party will pledge itself to continue in that direction. Tax reductions should go further. The standard rate of tax should be 20 per cent., while the top rate should be set at 30 per cent. This country has provided an international language, through computers and English. Our most skilled business people and our top scientists and hospital consultants can easily move to Australia, Canada and

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America if the rate of taxation here is too high. Nearly all people in continental Europe now understand English. Our most skilled people could move there, too.

I am also pleased that the Gracious Speech refers to the eventual privatisation of rail and coal. During the last 12 years the Conservative party has acted as a signpost for the future. I hope that after the next election it will continue, under the leadership of the present Prime Minister, to be an example to the rest of the world and to the Labour party by moving towards lower taxation, privatisation and a free economy, all of which help to raise living standards and increase human rights.

11.25 am

Sir Russell Johnston (Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber) : I hope that the hon. Member for Brent, North (Sir R. Boyson) will forgive me if I do not follow him into the foreign fields, for me, of London or the esoteric pastures of education. I suspect that we should for ever argue about the best way of doing things.

I agree with the Foreign Secretary's introductory remarks. Many of us, understandably, have been preoccupied with the developments in the European Community, leading up to the intergovernmental conference in Maastricht in December, but many other events have been taking place at incredible speed. I intend to comment briefly on some of those events.

I happily associate myself with the remarks made by the Foreign Secretary and the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman), when they paid tribute to the work done by James Baker. He has done a fantastic job. When one considers how hard he has worked recently in other areas, he deserves our praise.

It is about a decade since I went to the middle east with a Liberal party delegation. Then, as now, the issue was peace for land, or land for peace. Mr. Shamir will have to recognise that fact. I regret the fact that he left the conference this morning. He would have heard others tell him that. To be fair, however--though it is difficult to be fair when referring to the middle east--the Arab side must recognise that the land that was lost was lost after the wars that it conducted against Israel, and that peace means security to Israel. The Israelis will not give up land unless they have security. It will be the task of the bigger powers--the United States, in co-operation with the European Community--to find a means whereby peace can be achieved.

As for the development of the Soviet Union, the threats to peace presented by the instability there and the position of the central European countries, I agree entirely with those who have said that we have a responsibility to help to the greatest possible extent. In parenthesis, may I echo what the right hon. Member for Gorton said about President Gorbachev? We could also pick out his name and say that he is a remarkable man, who by himself has made a positive contribution to world peace.

Last weekend, I went to Poland to observe the elections on behalf of the Council of Europe. The economic position is parlous. Many people in Poland thought vaguely that with freedom would come prosperity--and pretty damn quick at that. In fact, the opposite has happened. Things have got dramatically worse and will get worse still. As hon. Members will be aware, the election produced a 40 per cent. turnout only, and an extremely fragmented

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