House of Commons Hansard Debates for 1 Nov 1991

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business opportunities with us. I accept, however, that we, like our European partners, need to clamp down further on the widespread racketeering that is taking place in the absence of a clearly worked out European convention on migration--perhaps with agreed quotas--and a convention on the rights of minorities.

To promote good and just government worldwide must be our aim and I therefore warmly welcome the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary in the summer in which he proposed a clearer and closer linkage with aid and, in that regard, I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on what he achieved at the G7 summit and at the Commonwealth conference. That reflects our insistence on economic and political reform in the former Soviet Union, to which we now offer advice under our know-how schemes, and I hope that similar advice will be made available to all such countries whose performance on democracy and human rights gives rise to concern.

The principal offenders are now to be found in the Islamic world, particularly among those who apply the law of the Sheria, which is so intolerant and disregarding of human rights as defined under the United Nations declaration. This morning, in Madrid, Mr. Shamir rightly condemned Syria for its record, but he offered no prospect of extending Israel's democratic principles to the Palestinians whom it now administers. That will be essential for lasting peace and security and for confidence- building in the region.

I believe that an answer lies in seeking to extend to the middle east the Helsinki process, which contributed so much to the end of communism in Europe. That is being proposed by a number of European states through the concept of a CSCM--a conference on security and co-operation in the Mediterranean--to which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary gave some support in his address to the United Nations General Assembly last year. A CSCM would represent the next logical step following--it is to be hoped--a successful outcome of the Madrid conference on the middle east. I hope that that will form the basis for future British and European Community foreign policy to secure peace, democracy and human rights in a region that has suffered more conflict, and whose people have suffered more misery, than any other since the war.

1.42 pm

Mr. John Wilkinson (Ruislip-Northwood) : My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Atkinson) has been typically generous in allowing me some time at the end of the debate. I am grateful to him and to other right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken briefly, although it would perhaps have been easier had Front-Bench spokesmen similarly curtailed their remarks.

I welcome the constructive measures in the Government's legislative programme as outlined in the Gracious Speech. I hope that the House will not consider me in any sense churlish if I utter two words of warning and make two points of textual criticism before conveying my principal message. The first word of warning is that in this, the final Session of the present Parliament and as the general election approaches, the Government should not

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seek to buy popularity by increasing public expenditure. I know that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will make a most important statement on this matter on Wednesday. The public sector borrowing requirement is already far higher than it should be and I expect that, by the end of this financial year, it will be higher still than was anticipated in the Budget statement last spring. If productive investment in private industry is not to be crowded out by the need to fund Government borrowing, and if interest rates are to be facilitated on their downward path, it would be better if the Government kept public expenditure genuinely under firm control and not just under firm control over time.

I hope that Her Majesty's Government will not impose a guillotine on the council tax Bill. It will be the most important measure of this Parliament and will need the most careful consideration by the House.

In his inimitable way, my right hon. Friend the Member for Brent, North (Sir R. Boyson) spelt out some of the inherent pitfalls of the legislation, as proposed. I, like my right hon. Friend, urge the Government to allow a greater discount than 25 per cent. for people who live alone. That is only equitable and right. The regional banding system will also have to be widened or property owners in the south-east will be most unjustly penalised. Already they face higher costs in servicing the mortgages on their more expensive properties. They also face higher costs of living, through having to commute to work, and so on. It would be utterly wrong if they were to be disproportionately penalised by a uniform banding system for properties in England.

My points of textual criticism are relatively minor. The Gracious Speech refers to

"the Soviet Union and its republics,"

--an unfortunate use of the possessive pronoun. It would have been better if the Foreign and Commonwealth Office had tried to anticipate events. There is a movement towards a genuine breaking up of the Soviet Union--if that is still the right term--as we have known it and we should seek closer relations with the republics, which rightly desire their independence. To take but two, the Ukraine and Byelorussia have had quasi-independent status in the United Nations for a long time. We recognise the Baltic states. I am sure that before too long we ought to recognise other states and anticipate their independence.

Her Majesty's Government are also hoping for

"a peaceful settlement in Yugoslavia."

I do not know whether Yugoslavia, as an entity, will emerge from the tragic conflict there. All I know is that, as was made perfectly clear by the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Wareing) in his eloquent speech, Yugoslavia was plainly set for conflict this autumn, yet the Government, the European Community and the Western European Union were able to do little to stop it.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that the United States was looking to regional organisations to solve disputes such as that in Yugoslavia, that he hoped that we would play a more positive part in such organisations and that the United Kingdom hoped to strengthen the institutions to which we belong. If we had genuinely played a more constructive and positive role within the Western European Union and the European Community over a period of time, we should have now a much more authoritative voice within both.

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The Government are correct to say that we support a common foreign and security policy and to make the distinction between security policy--the harmonisation of foreign affairs within the European Community--and defence per se. So long as defence remains the responsibility of sovereign Parliaments that vote funds on behalf of sovereign Governments in order to equip and maintain armed forces, so long will our collective security be one of voluntary co-operation between individual nation states. That is why the Western European Union is the right framework. That is why I wish Her Majesty's Government to play a more positive role within WEU.

The British-Italian proposals are essentially along the right lines. Again, however, we ought to anticipate events. When it comes to European security, the Soviets should be out of the Baltic states by the end of 1992. By then they should have withdrawn their armed forces from Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. At the end of 1993 they should be out of Poland, and by the end of 1994 they should be out of the eastern part of the Federal Republic of Germany.

After those withdrawals, we will have a totally new situation in Europe. We will still need the Atlantic alliance and the United States nuclear guarantee. However, I do not believe that the American people will be so willing as they have been in the past to maintain troops on the continent of Europe.

When we seek to modernise the WEU, we must create an institution that will, in the long term, be the nucleus of an organisation with a genuine European identity which is responsible for our defence. The Government are on the right lines, but they should not seek to build too much on the past. They should anticipate future events more. 1.50 pm

Mr. Martin O'Neill (Clackmannan) : As always, this debate has been wide ranging. The nature of the Queen's Speech affords hon. Members the opportunity to exercise their ingenuity in a variety of ways. Perhaps the prize today will go to the right hon. Member for Brent, North (Sir R. Boyson) who took us through Kashmir, into Wembley and back again by way of son of poll tax. That tax seems to be just as unacceptable to the right hon. Gentleman as the previous form of tax. However, I shall not dwell on such matters today because hon. Members have set down a large agenda on which there has been a fair amount of agreement.

Few would disagree with the remarks in the Queen's Speech about the changes in European strategy that have come about as a consequence of the changes in the Soviet Union, or whatever one should call the Soviet Union now. Perhaps the most accurate definition was given to me by a European diplomat who said that we should call it the UFFR--the union of fewer and fewer republics. Our strategies must change. Do we alter our policy in anticipation of change or do we run along desperately behind, as the Government have in their attempt to find a fig leaf of respectability for arguments that they are now addressing for the first time?

The recognition of the fact that short-range nuclear forces have no place in the new Europe is welcome, as is the recognition of the need to continue the process of reducing the size of the nuclear arsenal. There is also a need to address the problem of what we do with the fewer troops whom we shall require in central Europe. A number of nations within central Europe,

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however, are happy to have a continued multinational military presence. A number of the new democracies have expressed a willingness to join NATO. However, I do not believe that this is the time to consider such an application and, given the nature of developments, it is unnecessary. However, their desire to join NATO is an indication of their respect for the institution and for the expertise of those who work within it, be they civil servants or military personnel. They have brought that expertise to bear when dealing with the problems of security arrangements in central Europe.

I wish that we could applaud the way in which the force reductions have been handled in the United Kingdom. However, the Government have got themselves into a mess about the regimental system. When the White Paper was published we debated its proposals, but since then a variety of spins have been placed on that debate. It is incumbent on the Minister of State for the Armed Forces to tell us who is responsible for the amalgamation of the regiments and about what decisions have been taken.

As a Member of the House I have a close interest in this matter, but I am also conscious that the electors of Kincardine and Deeside are becoming increasingly confused by the statements from such people as the Secretary of State for Defence. Unfortunately, that right hon. Gentleman is unable to be with us today, for reasons that I perfectly understand. I should also offer my apologies to the Foreign Secretary. Because of weather problems in the United States I was two hours late arriving this morning and therefore missed his speech. However, I got the burden of his remarks from the debate that followed.

As regards the regimental system, it is more than appropriate that the Minister of State for the Armed Forces is following me at the Dispatch Box. We should like to know who has responsibility for reorganisation of the regimental system. Has the reorganisation been completed? Will there be some sort of extensive on-going review? When the Secretary of State for Transport--like a Trotskyite speaking at a protest meeting--operates in a personal capacity, by writing to people who are not in his constituency to tell them that a review is taking place, has he an axe to grind? Or is the reorganisation the sole responsiblity of the Secretary of State for Scotland, since the four Scottish regiments are based in and derive their personnel from that area? It is his interpretation that a review is continuing and that the quick-drying concrete that we were led to believe had been poured by the Secretary of State for Defence on 3 July is of a more slow-drying character, and that a number of other matters have to be taken into consideration.

I am not saying this simply to make fun of the Government over the regimental structure. It is more important than that. We are talking about the livelihoods of a large number of people who have committed themselves to this country, to their regiment and to the British Army and who now find a confusing scenario unfolding before them. This subject is important not merely in the context of a by-election or of poking fun at a Minister or at the shambles that the Cabinet have got themselves into, although those are important. What is more important is the grave disquiet within the armed services : they do not know what is going on and were led to believe that matters had been resolved.

This may be the last opportunity for some weeks to discuss the matter. The flurry of Question Time is not

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always the best time to resolve matters of this nature. I ask the Minister of State to try to clear up the confusion when he replies. I do not speak out of mischief. It is clear that the Government have got themselves into a mess. However, more important than the mess that they are in is the potential mess that they will make of people's lives. Many men have given a large portion of their working lives to the armed forces and are now confronted with the prospect of the dole queue and homelessness as a result of the hamfisted approach of the Minister and his colleagues.

In some respects the changes afflicting the British Army are as nothing compared to those afflicting armies in what was the Soviet Union. We must tackle the serious issue of control and ownership of nuclear weapons in what was the Soviet Union. The changes that have taken place there and the confusion which is now commonplace brings the proliferation of nuclear weapons into a new light. When we talk about tidying up and completing negotiations and arrangements on conventional forces in Europe and on START --strategic arms reduction talks--we must recognise that many nuclear weapons are not in the same location as they were when the ink dried on the treaty. They are now located in what to all intents and purposes are independent countries. The military districts upon which the CFE agreement was established are now spread throughout a number of independent or near- independent countries.

How do we resolve the question of who owns the weapons and how the arsenals would be reduced? What has become increasingly clear is that the Soviet Union does not have the means whereby it can reduce its arsenal at the rate that its treaty obligations require. Countries such as the Ukraine have stated that they wish to have a non-nuclear Ukraine, but not on the basis of ceding influence and control over such weapons to Russia. They would look for the kind of assistance that countries with nuclear expertise, such as Britain, can give.

Mr. Wilkinson : That was the point that I was imperfectly seeking to make. We should get closer to republics such as the Ukraine, whose aspirations to independence we have rather belittled over the years. We should give them positive help to demilitarise themselves from their offensive capabilities as they desire, but not necessarily inhibit their right to self-defence with much less dangerous armaments.

Mr. O'Neill : There is little disagreement between the two sides of the House on this. In the early stages, the question must be handled more by diplomats than by the military because of the sensitivities in places such as Moscow, of those at the centre or of those like President Yeltsin who have been somewhat confused about who owns and has responsibility for these weapons.

In seeking to assist in the disarmament process and to take advantage of the opportunities, we could give a clear expression of support for the moratorium that President Gorbachev suggested. That could be the basis for a clear look at what would be required in a test ban treaty, if such an agreement is possible. Certainly it should be possible with the permanent five members of the Security Council. It is important to involve in the dialogue not only the United Kingdom, but the Chinese and the French. The

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Chinese, for example, have in the past supported countries such as North Korea. If we are to grasp the nettle of proliferation, we must involve as many of the suppliers of the potential proliferators as possible.

If we are to deal with the proliferation in Iraq, it is a matter of the greatest urgency that we provide the International Atomic Energy Agency with far greater resources than we now do to carry out the intrusive work that it should have been carrying out during the past decade when Iraq was remorselessly becoming a nuclear weapon state. The whole question of maritime disarmament should engage the Government. As the major contributor of maritime support to NATO, we should be considering reductions in naval power. There is a school of thought that we should leave everything to structural disarmament--the disarmers' version of the free market system. It is the belief that if we leave it, the Soviets do not have enough money to put their boats to sea or to train conscripts or the volunteers who man their ships.

The continued presence and concentration in the Kola peninsular of large numbers of ships and military personnel presents the last serious risk to stability in northern Europe. Our Norwegian allies are greatly exercised by that. We should support them as, probably alone among the European members of NATO, we share a common awareness of that danger because we have responsibilities to support Norway if the worst were to happen.

When we talk about the European dimension within NATO we must be careful to remember--this has been made clear in several speeches today--that we should not encourage the forces of isolationism within the United States. The US, our major ally within NATO, is going through a period when the cost of defence not of its own land but, as it sees it, of the world is becoming a burden on its budget which it is not prepared to finance on the same scale as in the past. It would be wrong of us, when it is seeking to reduce its budget, to convey the impression that because the world appears to be safer we no longer require its presence in Europe. Labour Members recognise that the American contribution to the alliance is of a singular character. It is important not only because of the physical and military presence but because it engages the United States and Europe. We should not, in the name of spurious Europeanism, seek to alienate the Americans.

It is unfortunate that the spectre of Maastricht should hang over this part of our discussions today, because it would be wrong to move to decisions or non-decisions too early. The report in today's edition of The Times about the establishment of a north Atlantic co-operative council may go some way toward addressing some of the points that are being raised by eastern Europeans who wish to be connected in some way to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. However, it would be wrong of us to seek to convey the impression that the NACC, as it will probably become known, should be considered to be a strategic guarantee for those countries. Rather, we should strengthen the independent, democratically based and democratically controlled military in their own countries.

I welcome the moves that the Ministry of Defence has made to attract the serving forces from eastern European countries to our defence colleges. I was distressed to discover, however, that that has been done on the basis of allowing them to come provided that they have the money. Although the much-vaunted know-how fund is in the

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hands of the Foreign Office, which is the arch-enemy, in bureaucratic terms, of the Ministry of Defence, perhaps something could be done to ensure that if Foreign Office money is the only source available for know-how it could be extended to encourage military connections between our defence colleges and the former Warsaw pact countries. The understandably high fees being charged are a distinct drawback to eastern European military establishments coming to this country. Eastern Europeans have given that as one of the reasons for the small number of people coming to our colleges. It is regrettable that that happens, but it could easily be corrected. When we discuss security we tend wrongly to concentrate on military matters. Security is the building of understanding between countries so that the anxieties that have bred the prejudices, which have so distorted our continent in the past, can be allayed. We should pay as much attention to improving the health of the democratic institutions in those countries, supporting their free press and providing greater support to assist the political parties, as was provided for the Social Democrat and Christian Democrat parties in Germany. We often forget that the process of de-Nazification in Germany took place against a mature political system that was interrupted for only about 11 or 12 years between Hitler's rise to power and his defeat at the hands of the allies. Our task is now far bigger and the support that should be given to those institutions, not least to the free trade unions emerging in those countries, would be as much a form of assistance and support to eastern Europe as any military assistance, whether it is on the basis of nods and winks, or disarmament. The Queen's Speech makes many of the right noises but does not go far enough. It does not deal with the problems which we consider to be the most pressing and important. We recognise that Maastricht will provide a catharsis and that the debate on it will contribute to the emerging dialogue, but we also recognise that yesterday's Gracious Speech was a poor substitute for the speech that would have been delivered two weeks from now had we had a general election on 7 November.

2.9 pm

The Minister of State for the Armed Forces (Mr. Archie Hamilton) : As usual, this has been a varied and interesting debate. I hope that right hon. and hon. Members will forgive me if I do not reply to all the points that have been made and if I concentrate more on those that dealt with foreign affairs and defence.

First, I should like to take up the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr. Nelson) and by the hon. Members for Clackmannan (Mr. O'Neill) and for Middlesbrough (Mr. Bell) about the importance of the United States contribution to European defence. It is an essential tenet of our whole philosophy that the European contribution to our defence should be through the Western European Union. That is precisely because the WEU supports NATO and we feel that it is very important indeed to keep the United States playing a role in European defence, both for its own benefit and for ours. When we come to learn the lessons of the Gulf war it is important that we should understand the significance of the American contribution. In that high intensity conflict, the Americans contributed 400,000 professional service men. It might, of course, be possible for the Europeans to

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raise that number in a similar conflict in Europe, but they would certainly not be professionals : they would be conscripts. Europe still depends mainly on conscript armies.

My hon. Friend the Member for Chichester referred to technology that the Americans contributed to the Gulf war. It, too, was significant. Patriot missiles, Tomahawks, stealth aircraft, much of the electronic warfare and radar suppression, the laser-guided capability bombs--all these were contributed by the Americans. These are fabulously expensive types of equipment. Europe is not in a position or is not prepared to spend the sort of money that the Americans spend on their forces in the pursuit of high technology armaments.

The right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) made great play of the 40,000 job losses in defence industries since "Options For Change", but he seems to have forgotten that not long ago in the debate on the defence White Paper he voted for and probably put his name to an amendment calling for further cuts in defence expenditure. If the Opposition were in power, then, how many more jobs would be lost? It is hypocritical of the Labour party to criticise job losses in defence when the policy that it would pursue would result in even greater job losses.

Opposition Members talk endlessly about a diversification agency, but many of the industries in defence are alread diversified. British Aerospace has a large commercial aircraft division in which it can deploy high-tech operators and it will switch any of them that it can to that commercial side. It has also diversified into the Rover Group and it can use some of its skilled men in other areas. GEC, another large defence manufacturer, is already well diversified--

Mr. O'Neill : Why does not the Secretary of State for Scotland show the same antagonism towards defence diversification initiatives? On 14 October he announced a Scottish initiative to help companies that have to shed labour because of defence cuts.

Mr. Hamilton : Our development agencies in Wales and Scotland have always gone to the aid of industries in parts of the country where there have been job losses. I should also like to know what the sort of agency proposed by Labour would cost. How much will it cost to start creating these diversified jobs? It would be enormously expensive.

I was grateful for the presence of the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) in our debate. He is part of the substantial sector of the Labour party that still believes that we should get rid of all our nuclear weapons. I remind him that there are still substantial nuclear arsenals in the Soviet Union. What has come out of the debate is that nobody has a clear idea of what will happen to the Soviet Union. The intentions of the Soviet Union may have changed today, but we do not know what they will be tomorrow. We do not know what form it will take and we have no guarantee that its nuclear arsenals will somehow disappear. It is very important that we maintain our own nuclear deterrents in Europe when the world is extremely unpredictable.

I remind the House that United Nations teams looking for nuclear capability have operated in Iraq. I remind the House that Iraq is a signatory to the non-proliferation treaty. We had discovered little of its nuclear capability until the most recent investigation, when we discovered the

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greater technical capability of Iraq in the nuclear area. There are enormous dangers in espousing a policy that says that we would get rid of our nuclear weapons, because we might be threatened by a country such as Libya or Iraq.

The hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Wareing) said that the cold war has come to an end. That is no thanks to Labour. We must remember that the Labour party advocated our not deploying Pershing and cruise missiles. It has also opposed the strategic defence initiative introduced by President Reagan. Those were two significant factors in bringing the Soviet Union to the negotiating table. It realised that the pace was getting too quick for it and that it would be forced to come to the negotiating table, which it had been reluctant to do before.

Mr. Kaufman : As the Minister appears to have moved on to dealing with other speeches after having referred to mine, will he respond with the utmost clarity to a question that I put to the Government about the Gordon Highlanders? Does the statement made in July by the Secretary of State for Defence stand? Is that the Government's intention, or is what the Secretary of State for Transport has been saying the Government's new position-- namely that the matter is open for review? May we have a totally clear statement on the Government's position on the future of the Gordon Highlanders?

Mr. Hamilton : I am grateful for that contribution, although I should point out that the matter was also raised by the right hon. Gentleman's hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannan, and I am coming to the subject quite soon.

The hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby also produced a theory that eastern Europe does not want a free market economy. That makes one ask what it does want. I suppose that it is additional socialism for a few more years. Eastern Europe wants a free market economy, although people are unhappy about the process of getting there, and I have no doubt that it will be painful for them.

The hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber (Sir R. Johnston) raised the point that Soviet citizens believe that with freedom they will achieve prosperity. That is one of the great problems that they face. They believe that as they get political freedom, prosperity will follow automatically. One of the great problems of development in the Soviet Union has been that the economic reforms are coming on far more slowly than the political reforms. It would have been far better if the economic reforms could have gone in tandem with the political reforms. There will be a great problem as we try to get the basic changes which are needed in the Soviet economy before prosperity will come through.

The hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber raised the question of Yugoslavia, as did the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby, who has recently been there. The hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) also referred to Yugoslavia and very much supported the idea of armed intervention sponsored by the United Nations. I remind him that there is no legal basis for that. There is no evidence that the United Nations could agree on armed intervention in an internal struggle. Many members of the United Nations were wary about an arms embargo that had already been agreed. What would military intervention achieve? Peace-keeping works when the peace keepers are invited in and when there is a clear

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line to hold between the two sides. None of that is the case in Yugoslavia. Serbia opposes a foreign military presence. There is no clear dividing line. The communities are mixed, not just village by village, but street by street and even family by family.

The situation in Yugoslavia is tragic, but if we sent in our troops, we would simply be adding to that tragedy. Our soldiers would be dying alongside the Serbs and Croats. We are influenced by our experience in Northern Ireland. I do not have to remind the House that we went into Northern Ireland in 1969 with the objective of keeping Protestant extremists from killing members of the nationalist community. We had not been there very long when our soldiers began to be killed by people from that nationalist community. The year 1969 is now a long way away and no hon. Member can say that he can see the end of that conflict yet.

The hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber also reminded us about the recognition of states in Yugoslavia. That statement was made by Mr. De Michelis, who advocated recognition of all the republics who wanted that by the end of December. He was setting out his own ideas, as he has every right to do, but he was speaking on behalf of the European Community and he was not propounding a policy that we have to follow. It is now increasingly clear that, at some stage, we shall probably recognise Croatia and Slovenia at least. The timing is not yet clear, but, as my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said, recognition implies a protection that we cannot give and too early recognition would lead to an explosive situation in the rival states of Yugoslavia.

Mr. Wilkinson : Will my hon. Friend clarify, beyond peradventure, that most important statement, which I take him to have made on behalf of Her Majesty's Government? He said that, at some unspecified time in the future, we could officially recognise Slovenia and Croatia. If that is so, would we extend that principle to Macedonia, for example, which has also opted democratically for independence? That is a most important matter.

Mr. Hamilton : We have to take this bit by bit, but the situation in Slovenia and Croatia is different from that in the other states in Yugoslavia. The time is not right for us to recognise them now, but it could well be that we are able to do so later on.

My hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Mr. Wolfson) raised the question of the problems that we have met with "Options for Change", particularly as that affects the Army. He made a good point in saying that the regimental system, in which the Conservative party strongly believes--there is some ambivalence in the Labour party--makes the whole problem of restructuring the Army much more difficult. However, we would have more than enough infantry for the roles that we must fulfil one is aware particularly of our commitment to Northern Ireland. There will be 41 infantry role battalions, which will include three Royal Marine commando battalions. That is adequate, especially given that we were anxious to ensure that we had the capability to deal with the Northern Ireland roulement.

My hon. Friend also spoke of the amalgamation of the Queen's regiment and the Hampshire regiment, and I am aware of the concern that there has been in the home counties and Hampshire about this amalgamation. The Army Board had to make a difficult and painful decision,

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balancing factors relating to the individual regiments with the needs of the Army as a whole. This will be a genuine amalgamation and I am confident that the identity and important local links built up by both regiments will be carried forward into the new regiment. That amalgamation will be successfully achieved and the new regiment will become one of which most people in the south-east and London can be equally proud.

I know that there is concern in the House about the Scottish division. The division will be reduced by less than four out of five of the other infantry divisions in the Army. The result of our proposals and the deicisons that have been taken is that the percentage of infantry in Scotland will fall slightly. However, it goes up if one includes the amalgamations that are taking place in Scottish regiments and the armoured corps and artillery. Therefore, if we look at the percentage of the Army in Scotland we see that, overall, it goes up. In addition, and we are rather inclined to overlook this, there is a substantial Royal Air Force presence in Scotland, in Lossiemouth and Leuchars, and with the changes that are taking place and the displacement of our RAF assets, there will be an increase in the number of personnel at these bases. Therefore, overall, there will be a benefit there at a time when the Royal Air Force is reducing everywhere else across the United Kingdom.

Mr. Wilkinson : But RAF personnel in Scotland do not wear kilts.

Mr. Hamilton : That is the problem.

There is sizeable investment, for which we seem never to have any thanks from Scotland as it is represented on the Opposition Benches, in Coulport and Faslane. A massive amount has been invested in construction works. Until the start of the channel tunnel, it was the largest construction project in western Europe. I do not accept that Scotland is being unfairly treated.

As for the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Transport, we must go back to what I said in the House when we debated the defence White Paper. I made it clear then that the amalgamations taking place in Scottish regiments would not take effect until phase 1 was completed in March 1993. It follows that the amalgamations that are taking place in the Scottish regiments will take place in the years 1993 and 1994. Although the decisions have been taken, military considerations could change during that time. Indeed, our commitments could be increased for some reason. As we see things at the moment, we feel that the decisions should stand and that the amalgamations will go ahead.

I am slightly interested that mention has been made of what is happening in the Kincardine and Deeside by-election. In fact, I should be extremely interested to know what happens when a Labour canvasser finds himself on the doorstep and tries to persuade the Scots in that constituency that they are being frightfully badly treated. That same Labour man, especially if he is a Labour Member, will have either supported or voted for further reductions in defence expenditure only a few days before finding himself on the doorstep. Presumably the impact of that decision is even more amalgamations for Scottish regiments, or abolitions. If the Labour party is to

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be honest with the electorate in the constituency of Kincardine and Deeside, it should tell the people how much further the process will go.

Mr. Kaufman : As the Minister has now purported to respond to the question that I put in an earlier intervention, will he say clearly whether the decision on the Gordon Highlanders announced by the Secretary of State for Defence in July still stands? And does that mean that the indication by the Secretary of State for Transport that the decision could be subject to further review is inaccurate and repudiated?

Mr. Hamilton : I thought that I made that position quite clear. I said that that the decisions on the amalgamations of Scottish regiments have been taken, but clearly they are due to be implemented in the years 1993 and 1994. An awful lot can change between now and then. If at that stage we have taken on a larger number of extra commitments for one reason or another that the Army at its then size cannot meet, we shall clearly have to look again at the decisions that have been taken. I hope that I have made that clear to the right hon. Gentleman.

I wait for these debates and hope that the Labour party will come forward to clarify its policy on defence. In fact, we never have any clarification of what is going on. We can only turn to the policy documents that the party has issued. The document produced in 1989 was entitled "Meet the challenge, Make the change". At intervals, depending on how convenient it is to those in the Labour party, it is said that that document still stands and that it sets out the party's policy. Alternatively, it is said that the document has been superseded by a subsequent remark made by some Labour politician. If the document still stands, the position is that a Labour Government would negotiate away our nuclear deterrent. I shall be interested to know how that is explained to the people of Scotland. Such negotiations would lead automatically to the closure of both Coulport and Faslane and would result in the most enormous number of job losses in the area. I think that the Scots would be quite interested to know that.

Meanwhile, the Liberals think that their party will win the by-election. They keep on producing opinion polls that suggest that their party is leading. We all know that trick. When Liberals stand on the doorstep I have no doubt that they express enormous sympathy about the future of the Gordon Highlanders. Indeed, we all share that sympathy. But how do Liberals explain that under a Liberal-influenced Government the Gordon Highlanders would survive, when they have said already that their party would cut defence expenditure by 50 per cent. up to the end of the decade? That is rather a difficult one for them. On the whole, the Scots probably realise that a 50 per cent. cut is pretty draconian in anyone's life. It would make any of the reductions put forward by the Government seem like chickenfeed. There seems to be a tremendous amount of hypocrisy going around this place. There is a playing up of the difficult decisions that have had to be taken on the future of the Army. No one enjoys taking decisions that involve amalgamating regiments with great histories. My hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks raised the question of the regimental system. Provided that we believe in that system, as we do, when reductions have to be made the decision is much harder, and people find it much harder to

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accept. That is something with which we have to live. There is a great deal of hypocrisy among Opposition Members on this matter. Whichever of the Opposition parties the people of this country voted for, there would be much greater, draconian cuts in defence expenditure.

It being half-past Two o'clock, the debate stood adjourned. Debate to be resumed on Monday 4 November.

Statutory Instruments, &c.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker) : With the leave of the House, I shall put together the Questions on the four motions relating to statutory instruments.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(3) (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.), That the draft Magistrates' Courts (Remands in Custody) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c. That the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Paralytic Shellfish Poisoning) (No. 12) Order 1991 (S.I., 1991, No. 2077) be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c. That the draft Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications and Deemed Applications) (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c. That the draft Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications and Deemed Applications) (Amendment) Regulations 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.-- [Mr. Nicholas Baker.]

Question agreed to.

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Basildon and Thurrock General Hospitals

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.-- [Mr. Nicholas Baker.]

2.30 pm

Mr. David Amess (Basildon) : I am grateful for the opportunity to mark the historic granting of trust status to Basildon and Thurrock health authority. I am pleased to see my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Mr. Janman) in his place, and I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) will join us in due course. It goes without saying that the granting of trust status for our two hospitals has been achieved against a background of determined opposition by local socialist councillors and their friends. Just as we have noted nationally from Labour and Liberal Democrat Members in the House, locally the two parties have tried to scare our constituents and to spread alarm and despondency. They have tried to frighten our people about what trust status will mean and their anxieties have been worked up beyond belief. Far from trust status threatening their well-being, in Basildon, Thurrock and Billericay the quality of health care will continue to improve. How do we judge the success of the NHS? We look at the life expectancy of men and women, and that continues to increase. We look at the infant mortality rate, and that is decreasing. Babies are having a much healthier start to their lives.

The application for NHS trust status was submitted by Basildon and Thurrock general hospitals with a great deal of support from doctors, nurses and other members of staff. Of course, from time to time there have been criticisms of the care in our local hospitals. I and my hon. Friends accept no excuses from consultants, doctors or support staff if any of our constituents suffer from a lack of care and attention at our local hospitals. We accept full responsibility for our actions as Members of Parliament and we expect medical staff to do the same.

There is great enthusiasm for trust status in our area. I and my family are regular users of the NHS. We live just behind Basildon hospital. My children constantly seem either to be being delivered or being treated for odd ailments at the hospital, and they are extremely well cared for. The trust application was submitted so that the freedom and flexibility of trust status would enable us to provide a better range of services, locally based, to suit the needs of local residents. There is no doubt that the financial freedom would allow us to improve the physical environment of our buildings and to make them more welcoming.

Trust status will also enable the hospital to invest in new medical technology, which will in turn allow it to perform less invasive surgery and to reduce the length of time that patients will be required to remain in hospital. Patients will return to the community in a fitter state and it will be possible to treat more of them using the same number of beds. That will have the desired effect of reducing waiting lists and waiting times.

Trust status will allow the hospital to centralise its maternity services-- of which my wife has taken advantage on five occasions, the most recent being just a few weeks ago. Basildon has a superb maternity service, but the technical advice is that centralisation will result in a safer and more comprehensive service for the future. The hospital will be able to offer a first class, 24-hour paediatric

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service, deploy its highly skilled staff more cost effectively, and provide a safer maternity service to mothers and their babies. Those plans went out to public consultation five years ago and were approved.

Trust status will also enable the hospital to provide a range of services to the acutely ill elderly on the Basildon site. At present, elderly patients admitted to Basildon hospital's accident and emergency department are transferred to St. Andrew's hospital in Billericay or to Orsett hospital. The provision of an on-site unit at Basildon for such desperately ill patients means that they will not need to be transferred unnecessarily and that high technology equipment can be used in investigating and treating their conditions. That will provide a higher standard of service to the elderly in the district. Those plans were also agreed in 1986.

Members of the trust team and consultant medical staff from the unit have visited or have arranged to visit every general practitioner's practice in the district. That is of fundamental importance. Too often, throughout the country, GPs and consultants have not worked in unison as they should to ensure delivery of the highest possible quality of health care. Such consultation is under way in my district and it will benefit the constituents that I and my hon. Friends represent.

The trust will have a strong working relationship with the purchasing district health authority and is working with it to ensure that the highest standard of care and widest range of services can be achieved.

The most significant achievement of Basildon and Thurrock health authority over the years is undoubtedly that of achieving the biggest overall reduction in its waiting list out of 15 districts in the region. It achieved a reduction of 57 per cent. in the number of patients waiting for general surgery ; of 20 per cent. for ear, nose and throat surgery ; of 22 per cent. for orthopaedic surgery ; of 11 per cent. for oral surgery ; and of 12 per cent. for gynaecology. As to the number of patients awaiting admission to the hospitals for more than one year, as at June 1991 the figure was 375, compared with 954 a year earlier--a significant reduction of 60 per cent. The hospitals have also introduced a number of initiatives. All waiting lists are routinely checked to ensure that those who are on them still need an operation. Medical staff have been increased in problem areas. For example, a consultant oral surgeon, shared with Southend health authority, started work last August and new consultant posts in neurology and plastic surgery were created in April. Those posts have resulted in increased numbers of patients being treated. Short-notice waiting lists are held for filling last-minute cancellations by patients. Appropriate notice is given of admission to ensure that cancellations by patients are kept to a minimum. Three consultant surgeons blitzed problem areas on the waiting lists and held special day-case sessions. A community care team has been established to reduce the number of patients in hospital by getting them back home with proper support so as to free the acute beds more quickly.

New clinical techniques have been introduced to increase the use of day- case surgery. Significant developments have been achieved on waiting list funds. Basildon and Thurrock general hospitals have obtained from the North East Thames regional health authority waiting list initiative funds of £0.5 million to build and equip a dedicated day surgery unit, £12,000 to purchase

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