House of Commons Hansard Debates for 11 Nov 1991

THE ARTS

Women Employees

28. Mrs. Heal : To ask the Minister for the Arts how many women are employed in senior positions within the Office of Arts and Libraries.

The Minister for the Arts (Mr. Tim Renton) : Four of the 15 staff employed in grades 2 to 7 in the Office of Arts and Libraries are women.

Mrs. Heal : What action does the Minister propose to take to improve the percentage of women in senior positions within his Department? Does not he feel that the Office of Arts and Libraries should set an example to the other arts bodies such as the Arts Council, only three of the 12 members of which are women, and the regional arts boards, all of which are directed by men? Does not he feel that he should take more positive action than making optimistic speeches, if women are to improve their representation in the arts?

Mr. Renton : The hon. Lady is not right in saying that it is simply a question of making optimistic speeches. As she will know, I am also responsible, as the Minister for the Civil Service, for ensuring that there are proper opportunities for women and that women are encouraged to take them throughout the civil service. We issued a report on the matter just a few weeks ago at the same time as Oppportunity 2000 was launched. As more than 25 per cent. of the senior staff in my office are women, we are showing something of a lead to the rest of the civil service. I am delighted that that is so and I wish to continue it. Two thirds of my private office staff are women, the hon. Lady will be pleased to know, and two thirds of the support staff are women.

Mr. Evennett : While I welcome what my right hon. Friend has said, will he confirm that we should encourage more women into senior positions, but that they must be appointed on the basis of their ability, not just on the basis of their sex?

Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West) : The Minister for the Arts should be a woman.

Mr. Renton : Yes, of course it must be on the basis of equality of talent for the jobs available. The hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) says that the Minister for the Arts should be a woman. I wonder what his hon. Friend on the Front Bench thinks about that.

Mr. Fisher : The Minister's figures are at odds with the claims made in his policy document for the Government generally and, indeed, with the Prime Minister's remarks last week. Is not the Minister ashamed of the appalling record of the Office of Arts and Libraries in that respect? Does he personally believe that the skills and talents of women in the arts and media are undervalued and under-promoted? What does he intend to do about it? Is it not the case that the attempts made through his document,

Column 775

and the Prime Minister's speech last week, cover up the Government's lack of policies and are about as effective as lipstick on the face of a gorilla?

Mr. Renton : I fear that if Eve were to offer the hon. Gentleman a golden apple in the Garden of Eden he would immediately start to look for a maggot in it. The Office of Arts and Libraries has a good record in that field. It is not for me to tell the arts performing companies precisely how many women should be artistic or general directors. The hon. Gentleman will know--if he travels round the country as I do--the degree to which women hold top jobs in artistic companies and I am delighted that they are doing so.

Tourism

29. Mr. Jessel : To ask the Minister for the Arts what information he has as to the extent visitors to Britain are attracted by the arts.

Mr. Renton : In a sample poll of visitors to museums and galleries nationwide taken in 1990, 22 per cent. were from overseas. That figure rises to 44 per cent. in London. In addition, around 32 per cent. of overseas visitors to London in 1990-91 cited a trip to the theatre as their main reason for coming.

Mr. Jessel : As spending by overseas visitors on hotels, restaurants, shopping, travelling and the arts generates employment, income and a tax yield to the Government, does that not abundantly justify the excellent settlement obtained by my right hon. Friend in the negotiations for the autumn statement, and is it not time that the Opposition showed a bit more enthusiasm?

Mr. Renton : I thank my hon. Friend for his kind support for the good settlement that I was able to obtain for the performing and visual arts last week. It is satisfactory. In the broad strategy discussions that I have had with the Arts Council, it was my wish that a good proportion of the money should assist touring round the country and should help the new regional arts boards. In that way, we shall be helping the best to get the most. Given that the shadow Minister for the Arts came to see me in the spring to say what difficulties he thought the performing companies were in, I agree that it would be nice if the Opposition were to welcome this generous settlement.

Mr. Sheldon : Although the growth in that traffic and the need to maintain an increase in the numbers of people coming to this country to enjoy the arts is not the main purpose of the Minister's job, it has the most attractions for the Treasury. Given that fact, will he continue to press the Government and the Treasury for extra money to meet the demand for help for overseas visitors who come here and the demand for increasing availability of the various facilities that he tries to obtain?

Mr. Renton : I am not certain whether the right hon. Gentleman's remark about attraction to the Treasury was a promise or a threat, but I agree that the invisible earnings brought to this country by overseas tourists are an important factor. There is a tourism co-ordination committee which is headed by the Secretary of State for Employment. I attended one of its meetings last week. One of the matters that I stressed to the national tourist boards

Column 776

was that there is a great deal to be done to ensure that arts programmes--what is happening in local galleries and museums--are more widely known to overseas tourists through the tourist boards.

Public Libraries

30. Mr. Andrew Mitchell : To ask the Minister for the Arts if he will make a statement about the future of the public library service ; and what steps he is taking to assist its development.

Mr. Renton : I have recently ordered a review of the public library service in order to set out options on how it may operate into the next century. That will be a major follow-up to the last Government review, "The Libraries' Choice", which set the way for change in the 1980s, and will be completed by 1993.

Mr. Mitchell : In paying tribute to the six public libraries in my constituency, especially Arnold library where I hold one of my regular monthly surgeries--

Mr. Tony Banks : Only one a month?

Mr. Mitchell : Just one of my monthly surgeries. May I say that my right hon. Friend's review will be a great success if it succeeds in spreading library services ever wider to a larger number of people in a modern and effective manner?

Mr. Renton : I agree with my hon. Friend. The important thing is for libraries to look ahead over the next five to 10 years and to decide what nature of library services will be required, how local authorities can ensure that libraries are built in the most suitable places and what they can do to get the balance right between the lending of books and of tapes and records. I am delighted to hear that my hon. Friend regularly holds an advice surgery in a library, and I am sure that it is extremely well attended.

Mrs. Dunwoody : Is the Minister aware that during the past decade changes in relation to the library service have been almost entirely negative and that it is far more difficult for people on shift work or with small children to obtain access to libraries? There are far fewer library budgets capable of replacing and expanding the numbers of books. Far from the libraries needing to look forward to changes, they need some straightforward financial support and an understanding of the role of women librarians who form the majority of library workers at the lower echelons of the service if not in the Minister's Department.

Mr. Renton : The Library Association has made it abundantly plain that the problem for libraries over the next few years is not money but choice. It is making the service available to the average family which may not necessarily have the library habit. Parents and children must be attracted to libraries. At the heart of the review that I have asked to be undertaken is how to make certain that the libraries continue to provide the service that the community needs.

Arts Provision, Wales

32. Sir Anthony Meyer : To ask the Minister for the Arts when he next proposes to visit Wales to discuss provision for the arts.

Column 777

Mr. Renton : I visited south Wales on 3 and 4 October and hope to visit north and central Wales when convenient opportunities arise.

Sir Anthony Meyer : Is my right hon. Friend aware that he could enjoy the superlative Welsh National Opera without going to Wales, but that if he visits north Wales he will find nowhere for that wonderful company to perform? Will he discuss with the Secretary of State for Wales the possibility of a scheme to provide a home for the Welsh National Opera in north Wales?

Mr. Renton : This is ground upon which an Englishman almost fears to tread. A few days ago in Cardiff I saw an excellent performance of Rigoletto by the Welsh National Opera. It was extremely enjoyable. Cardiff bay development corporation has future plans to build premises for the Welsh National Opera at Cardiff Bay. Welsh men may have to decide among themselves whether they want an opera centre in Cardiff and in north Wales as well. If they do I shall be delighted to attend performances at both.

CIVIL SERVICE

Political Advisers

38. Mr. David Shaw : To ask the Minister for the Civil Service what plans the Government have to expand the numbers of political advisers employed in the civil service.

The Minister of State, Privy Council Office (Mr. Tim Renton) : The Government have no plans to increase the total number of special advisers. The appointment of a special adviser is a matter for each Minister in consultation with the Prime Minister as necessary.

Mr. Shaw : Has my right hon. Friend seen press reports that Labour Front-Bench spokesmen are proposing that Governments should set up within each Department a large cabinet--

Mr. Speaker : Order. What has this to do with Government responsibility?

Mr. Shaw : They propose that the Government should set up in each Department cabinets with large numbers of staff to monitor and control the civil service. Has my right hon. Friend any idea of the sort of people who would be chosen to fill those posts?

Mr. Renton : My hon. Friend asks an extremely important question. I saw the comment by the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) about the setting up of special kitchen cabinets under a possible Labour Government. As the hon. Gentleman's hobbies are listed in Dod's as "eating, cooking and wine" I can see his interest in kitchen cabinets. It would be helpful to know who the Opposition would appoint to such kitchen cabinets. For example, would Derek Hatton be special adviser to the Department of the Environment and would Bruce Kent get a job with the Ministry of Defence?

Mr. Rees : The Minister answered the question about special advisers. What is the difference between a special adviser and a political adviser? What part does the Civil Service Commission play in determining their salary levels? Who are these special advisers and which part of the documents are they allowed to see? Should not the House be given more details about them under any Government?

Column 778

Mr. Renton : My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has already answered that question, and the right hon. Gentleman will find it in Hansard last week. In that answer, my right hon. Friend lists the names of all 39 specialist advisers, all but five of whom are political advisers, with those five being special advisers-- [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman should wait a minute. Those five special advisers offer specific technical advice on subjects such as economics on which they are expert.

As the right hon. Gentleman will know from his wide experience, over the years the Labour party has tended to bring many so-called special advisers into local government. I hope that it would not dream of doing so in Whitehall.

Opportunity 2000

39. Mr. Simon Coombs : To ask the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement on the implications of Opportunity 2000 on the recruitment and promotion policies of the civil service.

Mr. Renton : My Department has joined Opportunity 2000 as the umbrella organisation for the whole civil service. We have had a specific programme of action to achieve equal opportunities for women since 1984. Considerable progress has been made, and further impetus will be given next year when I launch a new programme for action.

Mr. Coombs : Will my right hon. Friend make a start by reading the recruitment literature of the civil service and then reading a sample of the recruitment brochures of large private companies? He could then compare the women-friendliness of the two products. I think that he may realise that there is a substantial difference between the two, and that considerable improvement could be made in civil service literature in the hope that more women would be encouraged to make an initial application to enter the civil service.

Mr. Renton : My hon. Friend is making a serious point. I shall certainly suggest to my advisers in the Office of the Minister for the Civil Service--and through them to the Departments concerned--that they look at the recruitment literature of senior companies in the private sector to determine whether that is more attractive than the civil service literature. We emphasise in much of our literature that it is now easier for women to take career breaks, and that when they return from them they can have further management training. I am delighted to tell the House--and this is a most significant statistic--that women are now doing very much better in the fast stream competition. The proportion of women recommended for appointment under the fast stream in 1984 was 28 per cent., but in 1991 the figure will be more than 40 per cent. Those women will be the high fliers in the civil service in years to come.

Dr. Marek : About 10 minutes ago, the Minister said that two thirds of the staff in his office were women. He must know that well over two thirds of women in the civil service are stuck in the lowest paid grades, with no chance of moving elsewhere. Is not that partly because of the Government's appalling record on childcare? The Minister chooses not to say anything about that. If the public who

Column 779

listen to his words are to regard them as anything more than sheer waffle, what tangible targets has he set himself in that area?

Mr. Renton : I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that we are not moving forward. I have just quoted statistics showing that many more women are succeeding in the fast stream competition. More than 40 per cent. of those recommended for appointment in the fast stream are now women, compared with less than 30 per cent. 10 years ago. Those women will be the high fliers, the grades 1, 2 and 3, in future years.

On the question of childcare, the hon. Gentleman must know that we now have 85 holiday play schemes and 19 pre-school nurseries, six of them in partnership with other employers. The civil service is rightly moving forward on all those fronts. Of course, there is more to be done, but we are making progress.

Racial Discrimination

40. Mr. Hind : To ask the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement on his proposals to counter racial discrimination in the civil service.

Mr. Renton : We shall continue to implement the programme for action on race that was introduced last year. Good progress is being made in a wide range of areas, including selection, promotion and training to make staff aware of their responsibilities. A report will be published in December and copies will be placed in the Library.

Mr. Hind : My right hon. Friend knows that I recently wrote to him about this matter. Will he reassure the House that it is his policy to encourage an increase in the number of ethnic minority civil servants, that they will be welcome within the civil service, and that equal opportunity will be extended to them?

Mr. Renton : Welcome? Yes. Equal opportunity extended to them? Yes, certainly. I am not one who believes in positive discrimination in this or in other fields, but certainly I very much hope to see the number from the ethnic minority who are employed not only in my Departments but the civil service generally continue--I stress the word continue--to increase over the years ahead.

Mr. Tony Banks : I may say to the Minister that the best way of judging how far he is succeeding is for him to tell the House the name of the most senior black civil servant within the civil service and that of the most senior woman civil servant. Then we can decide whether or not the Minister is just flannelling us or giving us something of substance. Who is the most senior black civil servant? How far up the grade?

Mr. Renton : I really do not think that is a helpful approach, although I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that my own political adviser is drawn from the ethnic minority. I am delighted to have him, and he is a very helpful member of my staff. It is the wish of us all to see that the proportion of the ethnic minorities increases. I do not think that it is high enough. As the hon. Gentleman will realise, it was only recently that we started to ask staff to tell us their ethnic origin. In the early days, a great many

Column 780

did not wish to answer that question. A higher proportion are now doing so as they become more convinced of our determination to give equality of opportunity.

Working Conditions, London

42. Mr. Simon Hughes : To ask the Minister for the Civil Service when he last met representatives of the civil service unions to discuss working conditions in London.

Mr. Renton : I meet civil service trade union representatives from time to time to discuss a variety of issues.

Mr. Hughes : Is the Minister aware that the greatest grievance of civil servants working in London is that the London weighting allowance has been frozen since 1988? With a retail prices index last year of 13.9 per cent., they have now fallen 23 per cent. behind. Whereas people in the private sector are getting £3,000 or £4,000 London weighting, civil servants have been granted neither an increase nor a referral to arbitration. Will the Minister right that injustice in the very near future?

Mr. Renton : No, I do not believe that there is an injustice in that situation. There is no general retention or recruitment problem in London at present. It is true that the London weighting mechanism has been ruled out for the time being, but it could be ruled in again. Meanwhile, London pay issues are being addressed by London spine points and, where appropriate, local pay additions--and they are meeting all the necessary requirements.

Mrs. Gorman : Will my right hon. Friend enlighten me as to whether the civil service unions have had anything to do with removing a portrait of Her Majesty the Queen from the foyer facing Parliament square and relegating it to the back staircase, where it is hardly--

Mr. Speaker : Order. I do not think that is an appropriate question, but I will allow the hon. Lady to go on.

Mrs. Gorman : Can my right hon. Friend the Minister give an assurance that he will look into that matter?

Mr. Renton : I am not sure whether I should look into it wearing my hat as Minister of State with responsibilities for the civil service or as Minister for the Arts. Either way, I will gladly look into that matter.

Mr. Cormack : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I may point out that the question my hon. Friend the Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) was based on total misinformation.

Mr. Speaker : I just did not regard the hon. Lady's question as being particularly appropriate for the Minister when answering questions on the civil service, though it might have been more appropriate for the Minister for the Arts. Anyway, the hon. Lady asked it.

BILLS PRESENTED

Prison Security

Mr. Secretary Baker, supported by the Prime Minister, Mr. Secretary Heseltine, Mr. Secretary King, Mr. Secretary Hunt, the

Attorney-General and Mrs. Angela Rumbold, presented a Bill to make provision for an offence of prison mutiny and for a new offence and new

Column 781

penalties in connection with escapes from prison : And the same was read the First time ; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Tuesday 12 November and to be printed. [Bill 9.]

Transport and Works

Mr. Secretary Rifkind, supported by Mr. Secretary Baker, Mr. Secretary Heseltine, Mr. John MacGregor, Mr. Secretary Wakeham, Mr. Secretary Hunt, Mr. Secretary Lang and Mr. Patrick McLoughlin, presented a Bill to provide for the making of orders relating to, or to matters ancillary to, the construction, operation or use of railways, tramways, trolley vehicle systems, other guided transport systems and inland waterways, and orders relating to, or to matters ancillary to, works interfering with rights of navigation ; to make further provision in relation to railways, tramways, trolley vehicle systems and other guided transport systems ; to amend certain enactments relating to harbours ; and for connected purposes ; And the same was read the First time ; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Tuesday 12 November and to be printed. [Bill 10.]

Column 782

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.

Mr. Speaker : With the leave of the House, I will put together the Questions on the five motions on the Order Paper relating to statutory instruments.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(3) (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.), That the draft Scottish Seed Potato Development Council (Amendment) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Companies Act 1985 (Bank Accounts) Regulations 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c. That the draft Bank Accounts Directive (Miscellaneous Banks) Regulations 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Waltham Forest Housing Action Trust (Area and Constitution) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the Income Support (General) Amendment No. 4 Regulations 1991 (S.I., 1991, No. 1559) be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.-- [Mr. Greg Knight.]

Question agreed to.

Next Section (Debates)

Home Page