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House of Commons

Tuesday 12 November 1991

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]

MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN

Queen's Speech (Answer to Address)

The Vice-Chamberlain of the Household reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows :

I have received with great satisfaction the loyal and dutiful expression of your thanks for the Speech with which I opened the present Session of Parliament.

PRIVATE BUSINESS

London Underground (Safety Measures) Bill

[Lords] Order for Third Reading read.

To be read the Third time tomorrow.

London Underground (King's Cross) Bill Order for consideration read.

To be considered tomorrow.

Commercial and Private Bank Bill

[Lords] Order for Second Reading read.

To be read a Second time tomorrow.

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Oral Answers to Questions

EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

Student Loans

1. Mr. Andrew F. Bennett : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he has any plans to change the student loans scheme.

The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Kenneth Clarke) : No, Sir

Mr. Bennett : Does the Minister agree that the loans scheme has turned out to be an administrative nightmare and that it has caused a great deal of bureaucracy and hardship to students, especially since they have been removed from the safety net of social security? Is not it hard that all those measures have been placed on students at a time when they find it particularly difficult to get vacation jobs or part-time jobs in term time and when those who graduate find it increasingly difficult to get jobs to pay off the overdrafts that they have had to incur as students?

Mr. Clarke : I do not agree with any of those premises. First, the scheme has been extremely well run and the loans company has met its target of getting the loans to those who have applied within 21 days in almost all cases. The majority of students have not felt obliged to take out loans as they have not thought it necessary. Those who have done so have enjoyed the benefit. The loan plus the grant is 30 per cent. higher than the grant alone two years ago. There is no evidence of significant student hardship, despite a somewhat half-baked campaign by the National Union of Students to try to suggest that there is. We have provided an access fund to the institutions to enable them to deal with the few cases of hardship that genuinely occur.

Mr. Pawsey : If the situation is as the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) describes it, why has the number of applicants to advanced education increased and why does the number of admissions to universities and polytechnics show a substantial increase? Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that student support in the United Kingdom continues to be the most generous in the western world?

Mr. Clarke : I am unable to answer my hon. Friend's first question ; it puzzles me, too. We had been told that the loans system would deter people who might otherwise have gone into higher education because of the so-called financial hardship that they would face. In fact, since it has been introduced, the rate at which student numbers have increased has been unprecedented and we expect it to increase by 10 per cent. again this year. All the evidence refutes the nonsense that we have heard about the impact of the student loans scheme. My hon. Friend is right that we have the most generous system in the developed world for supporting students. I make no apology for that. It is Government policy to continue to extend opportunity for students in that way.

Mr. Straw : Why is the Secretary of State so contemptuous of the evidence about student hardship when it comes from sources such as the citizens advice

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bureaux and from scores of cases sent to him by hon. Members on both sides of the House? Does the Secretary of State recognise that the access funds are in no sense a substitute for student eligibility for social security and for vacation hardship allowance and that mature students in particular have been plunged into severe hardship by the Government's policies? In the light of that, will he reconsider the abolition of vacation hardship allowance, especially as it was abolished in clear breach of undertakings given in the House that it would remain as a safety net following the abolition of social security provision?

Mr. Clarke : I have looked at the evidence of so-called student hardship and I do not accept that the "scores" of cases stand up to examination. There have always been some students in serious difficulties. Mature students and those who do not receive the parental contribution towards their grant have always been a problem. It is somewhat eased for some by the student loans system. It can also be addressed by using the access funds provided by the Government. The average student is much better off under our arrangements of a combined grant and loan scheme than previously. The few that are not--those with high housing benefit--can be helped through the access funds. The vacation hardship allowance was almost unheard of and was not being demanded. When we abolished it there was scarcely any take-up.

Grant-maintained Schools

2. Mr. Colvin : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many schools in Hampshire have now applied for and achieved grant-maintained status ; and if he will make a statement.

The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mr. Tim Eggar) : Four schools in Hampshire have applied for and achieved grant- maintained status. I am pleased that the parents of pupils at those schools have voted to take up this option for their schools. I hope that many more in Hampshire and, indeed, throughout the country will follow their example.

Mr. Colvin : May I take this opportunity to congratulate Hardley school in my constituency which was the first in Hampshire to achieve grant -maintained status? Does my hon. Friend accept that opting out, as it is called, is a misnomer because schools which achieve grant-maintained status are opting into a new educational regime of higher morale, better educational opportunities and more money? What percentage of schools in Hampshire will have to achieve grant-maintained status for the local education authority to become redundant?

Mr. Eggar : I hope that the local education authority will encourage schools to go grant maintained. There is much evidence from a recent survey that that is beneficial to schools and pupils. For example, of the schools replying to the survey, 90 per cent. reported an increase in the number of pupils applying, 65 per cent. reported more teachers in the schools and 75 per cent. reported an improved teacher-pupil ratio. That is evidence of the success of the GM policy.

Mr. Hardy rose--

Mr. Speaker : The question is about Hampshire.

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Mr. Hardy : I know that it is about Hampshire, Mr. Speaker. Will the Minister offer the House any justification for the provision of more money to schools in Hampshire because they happen to serve the current dogma of the present Government?

Mr. Eggar : The money is allocated to Hampshire on the normal standard spending assessment basis. Grant-maintained schools rightly get money which would otherwise be spent on administration costs by Hampshire. Those grant-maintained schools are using that money effectively for the benefit of the school and, more importantly, of improving education for the pupils attending those schools.

Foundation for Sport and the Arts

3. Mr. Mans : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what responsibilities he has for the sports and arts foundation.

The Minister for Sports (Mr. Robert Atkins) : The Foundation for Sport and the Arts is an independent trust which decides the allocation of its own funds. Under the trust deed I appoint a Government observer and am consulted on the appointment of the chairman. In practice, I keep in close touch with the work of the foundation.

Mr. Mans : Will my hon. Friend confirm that the Football Trust gets an extra £20 million from the 2.5 per cent. reduction in the betting levy which goes towards the safety and improvement of football grounds?

Mr. Atkins : That is certainly part of the money that is made available as a result of the far-sighted decision of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer. When one adds to that the £40 million or so from the trust, my hon. Friends at least will recognise that the Government can lay claim to spending more money on sport than any party has done for many years.

Mr. Pendry : Is not the Minister somewhat ashamed of himself? Despite the various amounts that come from the Foundation for Sports and the Arts--given at the whim of the trustees in a haphazard fashion--they do not compensate in any way for the £60 million cut in real grant from the Government since 1986. What answer will the Minister give to the chairman of the Sports Council, who described the recent cuts as a kick in the teeth?

Mr. Atkins : I am delighted to see the hon. Gentleman in the Chamber ; he should be on the Opposition Front Bench as their spokesman for sport, as my shadow is not here. Perhaps something should be read into that.

This year the increase in grant to the Sports Council is 4.4 per cent., which is more than the rate of inflation and equivalent year on year to what we have pledged ourselves to provide. I repeat that if one adds to that the £40 million from the foundation, the £20 million a year for football and the £1 million that I found for the champion coaching scheme, it is clear that our commitment to sport is greater than anyone's.

I spoke to the chairman of the Sports Council this morning and pointed out that the increase in grant is in excess of inflation. Therefore, his comment was wrong.

Mr. Menzies Campbell : Does the Minister understand that, despite what he has just said, there is still

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considerable apprehension that the Government will use the existence of the foundation as an excuse for not funding sport properly ? The Minister is aware that the Sports Council's plan did not represent a standstill, but involved the development and expansion of all its activities. That is why the settlement of 4.4 per cent. is rightly described as a kick in the teeth.

Mr. Atkins : It is extraordinary that even though the Government found an extra £40 million for sport in the last Budget, which is near enough double the expenditure on sport year on year, Opposition Members criticise us and suggest that we are not providing the necessary resources for sport. The first tranche of money from the foundation of £3.7 million-- [Interruption.] Do stop interrupting.

Mr. Speaker : Order. I am supposed to say that. Can we get on ?

Mr. Atkins : I was referring to the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw). He is supposed to believe in discipline in our schools, but his behaviour is singularly ill-disciplined. As a public school boy, he should know better.

I have sought to demonstrate that the claim of the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) is fatuous, because we are spending much more money on sport than in the past.

Mr. David Evans : Does my hon. Friend agree that Labour's charter for sport is about more interference, more committees, more regional committees and, most of all, more costs ? Will sport be subject to Beckett's law ? Will it be a top priority, a priority, or what ? Does not that contrast with the Conservative policy of reducing the betting levy by 2.5 per cent., which has given £100 million to sport and increased the Sports Council grant to £50 million--

Mr. Speaker : Order. Let us have a question please.

Mr. Evans : Does not it mean that we are the party of hot money, not hot air?

Mr. Atkins : I can do no better than to draw the attention of the House to this statement in Labour's charter for sport :

"We will review the composition and powers of the Sports Council to free them from political bias".

However, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell), who is supposed to be the shadow spokesman on this subject, suggested that Labour would encourage a greater ministerial role in the Sports Council. May we know which is which?

Mr. Cormack : Does my hon. Friend accept that much as many of us welcome the sports and arts foundation, we would infinitely prefer to have a national lottery, which would produce far more money for sport and the arts?

Mr. Atkins : I am sure that my hon. Friend recognises that there are a number of views on this subject. My views are well known, but it is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

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Derbyshire County Council (Funding)

4. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will increase the educational funding for Derbyshire county council.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Michael Fallon) : Councils' current spending on all services next year should be 7.2 per cent. higher than this year, but it is for Derbyshire to decide its level of spending and priorities between services. Capital spending in schools, supported by annual guidelines, is set to rise from £472 million this year to £524 million next year, an increase of 11 per cent. Derbyshire's allocation will be announced before Christmas.

Mr. Skinner : Will the Minister confirm that in the summer he met a group from Derbyshire county council who asked for £140 million, spread over the next three years, to get rid of all outstanding repairs and make necessary improvements? After 12 years of Tory rule, little toddlers must still run across playgrounds to get to outside toilets. We have the citizens charter, the parents charter and every charter under the sun. When will the Government put their money where their mouth is?

Mr. Fallon : I confirm that Councillor Young came to the Department in July with five hours' worth of videos showing how Derbyshire had been running down its schools. I allocated Derbyshire £21 million this year, the fourth highest allocation of any education authority in England. I now understand that Derbyshire is planning to siphon off £5.5 million of capital spending to pay for extra redundancy and personnel costs at county hall.

Mrs. Currie : Might the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) want more money for Derbyshire so that it can employ more people such as his brother, who is employed as a personnel liaison officer for Toyota, his sister-in-law, who is employed in the county publicity department-- [Interruption.] --and such as another sister-in-law, who is employed in the education department? The hon. Gentleman is always talking about jobs for the boys. Should not that include brothers and sisters as well?

Mr. Fallon : Derbyshire not only employs some pretty odd people, but it makes some rather odd choices. This year, Derbyshire has chosen to cut music and swimming while spending over £5 million keeping school meals at 1981 prices.

Greater Manchester Schools

6. Mr. Tony Lloyd : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on the staffing levels and the conditions of schools in Greater Manchester.

Mr. Fallon : In January 1991, the 10 local education authorities in Greater Manchester reported 230 full-time permanent posts unfilled, a vacancy rate of 1 per cent. below the national vacancy rate of 1.5 per cent. Vacancy figures in September showed a significant improvement, with only 15 vacancies reported for the whole of Greater Manchester at the start of the school year.

Mr. Lloyd : I am not surprised that the Minister failed to mention the condition of schools in Greater Manchester. Will he confirm that in every year and for

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every authority recently in Greater Manchester, the amount of money that the Government have allowed them to spend on capital projects has been way behind what they have needed, with the result that there is now a backlog of repairs and maintenance? Is he aware that one head teacher recently told me that not only do they have to teach in unsavoury conditions, but they are now having to teach in unsafe conditions? The Government are putting the health and safety of children at school at risk. What will the Minister do to make sure that that state of affairs does not continue?

Mr. Fallon : For the 10 councils in the Greater Manchester area, I increased capital guidelines from £32.6 million last year to £41.6 million this year. I shall be announcing the individual allocations for next year before Christmas.

Sir Fergus Montgomery : Will my hon. Friend confirm that the worst- ever cuts in education took place in 1976 under a Labour Government? Will he further confirm that the 11 per cent. increase in the autumn statement is bound to be helpful?

Mr. Fallon : Yes, the 11 per cent. increase for school buildings next year is a good outcome, given that the level of inflation is only about 4 per cent. and given the drop in construction prices. Trafford education authority has received about £13 million in the past two years to help it reorganise and improve its schools.

Higher Education

7. Mr. Battle : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he next expects to visit Leeds university and Leeds polytechnic to discuss funding for higher education.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Alan Howarth) : I will be visiting Leeds polytechnic toopen the Higher Education for Capability office on 27 November. This is a joint project of the polytechnic and the university.

Mr. Battle : Is the Minister aware that at Leeds university top- quality alpha-grade research in technical and scientific subjects can no longer be funded? Will he give an assurance that in future research at Leeds polytechnic will be funded under the new joint proposals? Is he aware that such cuts in academic research will prove to be economic short termism with vengeance?

Mr. Howarth : Our policy is that high-quality research should be supported in departments of universities and polytechnics, wherever they may be. The Universities Funding Council and the Polytechnics and Colleges Funding Council will embark jointly on a new research and assessment exercise next year. As a consequence, up-to-date ratings of quality will be made, department by department, across the spectrum of higher education. Every department that scores highly in those assessments will benefit accordingly. That is a thoroughly fair system.

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman : Will the Minister make absolutely certain that the funding councils use up-to-date figures ? Universities such as Lancaster are going steadily and rapidly up the poll and are doing very well indeed.

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However, the 1988 criteria are not as good as current ideas, so it is important that the universities that are forging ahead should be encouraged.

Mr. Howarth : As always, my hon. Friend is eloquent in championing the university in her constituency--and rightly so. The new research assessment exercise has been brought forward in anticipation of ending the binary line and bringing together the polytechnics and universities in one sector. As a result of the exercise to be carried out during 1992, the assessments of research quality will be based on the most up-to-date data.

Mr. Andrew Smith : When the Minister discusses higher education funding at Leeds, will he confirm that it is Government policy to increase basic funding in line with the increase in student numbers? Given the pressures on laboratories, libraries, teaching and student accommodation, and the real cut in capital funding in this year's autumn statement, what is the Government's policy on capital expenditure?

Mr. Howarth : I am delighted to be able to tell the hon. Gentleman that our policy on capital expenditure is to encourage and enable higher education institutions to invest, as they need to do, to accommodate the dramatic increase in student numbers as well as provide facilities for the research of remarkable quality which takes place in so many of our universities. Capital funding available from the polytechnics has increased by 50 per cent. since 1989-90, when the PCFC sector was established. I am pleased that, in the new settlement that has just been announced, we have secured an extra £9 million of capital funding for the higher education institutions.

School Inspectors

8. Mr. Spearing : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he next expects to receive a report from Her Majesty's chief inspector of schools.

Mr. Kenneth Clarke : The senior chief inspector's annual report is being prepared now and will be submitted to me on completion.

Mr. Spearing : Does the Secretary of State agree that, whatever the merits of Her Majesty's inspectors being involved in the advocacy of method, their function of providing independent and publicised reports on the quality of education has never been in question? If he wishes to make an adjustment, would not it be more sensible to detach their role from advocacy of method and confine it solely to inspection? Is not his solution of private consultants to be engaged by competitive schools asking for trouble, because it creates an automatic conflict of interest and renders their reports suspect by definition?

Mr. Clarke : With respect, the hon. Gentleman appears to be slightly confused about what we are doing. First, I accept that the inspectors' production of an annual report and other reports on our schools is extremely valuable, as they base their advice on the inspections that they carry out. The Education (Schools) Bill will continue that. Indeed, we strengthen the independence of Her Majesty's chief inspector of schools in producing those reports by detaching him, to a much greater degree than in the past, from my Department. Secondly, the new role for HMI will be to monitor the quality of all those inspectors who will

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carry out the new inspections in individual schools throughout the country and to give, for the first time, reports to every parent about those schools.

Mr. Spearing indicated dissent.

Mr. Clarke : The hon. Gentleman dismisses that. Does he think that we should employ 5,000 HMIs to carry out inspections, or does he prefer the Labour party's solution--that only local councils should be allowed to inspect schools ? We are giving Her Majesty's inspectorate a key role in monitoring the quality of those permitted to carry out that public service.

Mr. Amos : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the whole purpose of the reforms is to increase the number of inspections in schools, not reduce them, and that the monitoring and regulation of the new system will be such that it would not be in the professional interest of any inspector to try to fiddle a report ?

Mr. Clarke : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Last year Her Majesty's inspectors produced and published about 150 reports on individual schools and, usually, no parent saw the reports. Our arrangements will lead to about 6,000 inspections each year, and each parent will receive, without requesting it, a straightforward description of the inspection. We state that the teams of inspectors should be monitored and approved by Her Majesty's inspectorate. The new, independent Her Majesty's inspectorate will have the duty of giving a little lion stamp to those inspectors and ensuring that they are up to the mark.

Mr. Straw : How can the Secretary of State conceivably claim that Her Majesty's inspectorate is to be strengthened when its numbers are to be cut by two thirds and it is to be subject to clear and specific direction from the Secretary of State ? Will the Secretary of State confirm that the privatisation of the inspectorate inherent in the Education (Schools) Bill goes far further than that presaged in the schools charter and includes, under the guise of additional inspectors, the substitution of private money -making firms to do the work currently carried out, not just by local inspectors but by the chief inspector of schools ?

Mr. Clarke : I have carried out several privatisations in my time in commercial and industrial departments, and my understanding of the word privatisation is that one takes something currently managed in the public sector and transfers it to the private sector--the last such transfer in which I was engaged involved British Steel. In this case, Her Majesty's inspectorate is not being transferred and its role will remain the same except that as a public organisation it will be made more independent of the Secretary of State. The hon. Gentleman's complaints are based solely on the fact that the total number of staff in the inspectorate are to be reduced. The Labour party judges such matters only on the number of employees and trade union members on the books, which is not the test that we shall apply. We shall give Her Majesty's inspectorate powers and duties and the number of staff that the chief inspector and I think are required to fulfil those roles.

Mr. John Browne : Will Her Majesty's chief inspector report on the case of Kings school, Winchester, which was denied grant-maintained status as a direct result of the local authority using public funds to wage a campaign against it ?

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Mr. Clarke : I do not think that Her Majesty's inspectorate can look at that case. A parental ballot was carried out on grant-maintained status and the parents decided to vote against the application for that status. I agree with my hon. Friend that Hampshire county council waged an extremely vigorous campaign against the proposal. I do not agree that Hampshire presented the case fairly, and I keep trying to obtain undertakings from Hampshire county council that, even if it cannot support Government policy, it might at least present a more detached account of the case to parents when grant-maintained options are on the table.

Gateshead CTC

9. Mr. Mullin : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the proposed per capita capital spending per pupil in 1991- 92 at (a) Gateshead city technology college and (b) all secondary schools in the borough of Sunderland.

Mr. Eggar : My right hon. and learned Friend's planned capital contribution to Emmanuel college, Gateshead in 1991-92 is £259,000. The funding agreement with the CTC allows for 300 pupils in 1991-92. The Department does not hold figures for the proposed capital expenditure on secondary schools in the borough of Sunderland in 1991-92.

Mr. Mullin : I am not surprised that the Minister declines to give us the figures because is not the truth that about 60 to 80 times the amount of money is being spent per capita on students at the city technology college than is spent on pupils at secondary schools in Sunderland and surrounding boroughs? Can the Minister point to any country apart from South Africa where such large sums are spent on a small elite group at the expense of the majority?

Mr. Eggar : I am not sure where the hon. Gentleman gets his figures from--perhaps from the same Labour party briefing on which the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) relies. The hon. Member for Blackburn produces wholly fictitious figures which compare the new building costs for new schools or for the conversion of schools to CTCs over a period of three years with the capital expenditure borrowing guidelines for 14 authorities in one year. That shows that he has not reached level 1 in mathematics, and nor has the hon. Gentleman.

Student Grants

10. Mr. Bowis : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will review the criteria for student grant eligibility.

Mr. Alan Howarth : The Education (Mandatory Awards) Regulations are reviewed annually. Extending them to a substantially wider range of courses or students would, however, require primary legislation. We have no present plans for that.

Mr. Bowis : Is my hon. Friend aware that in many local education authorities, not least in London, it is a prerequisite for a discretionary award that a student lives for at least three years within the borough concerned? Will he give at least gentle guidance to LEAs suggesting that it is not reasonable for students to be excluded from

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discretionary grants merely because their parents have moved home? Or will he try to find some other way of funding such students?

Mr. Howarth : The regulations do not impose any specific requirements on how local education authorities should treat people ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom when considering their applications for discretionary awards. It is for each LEA to construct its own policies in respect of discretionary awards. "Discretionary" means what it says : it is not our policy to intervene or even to lean gently on authorities in this matter.

Mr. Simon Hughes : Does the Minister accept that it is no good being eligible for a mandatory award if it is then not paid? What steps is he taking to ensure that this year local authorities such as Southwark, which a week or two ago had paid less than one fifth of its mandatory grant cheques to eligible students, pay up, so as to minimise student hardship? And what will he do to ensure that in future years the system pays up at the beginning of the year, not a third of the way through it or later?

Mr. Howarth : We have a student support system as generous as any in the world, but under long-established arrangements local education authorities administer the award system, and students depend absolutely on those authorities playing their part. We have substantially increased resources for students, providing more money for more of them. It is a disgrace if students are in difficulty on account of administrative failures by local education authorities. I have already made my views clear : officials have written to every education authority about which we have received evidence of a failure to carry out its statutory duties--and we will continue to pursue the matter vigorously.

Mr. Hannam : Is my hon. Friend aware of the problem that some mature students, particularly women with home commitments, have to take their degree courses in the form of part-time courses and that they are therefore not eligible for mandatory grant? Will he look into that?

Mr. Howarth : My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the changing pattern of higher education. There has been a dramatic expansion of participation, and there are more mature and part-time students and more people working their way towards qualifications on the basis of credit accumulation and transfer. We shall keep our administrative and financial systems under review in the light of these trends.

Mr. Cryer : Does the Minister accept that a local authority such as Bradford, which tries to provide a wide range of discretionary awards, is inevitably limited by the amount of money that it can give? If central Government provided more assistance, the Minister may rest assured that such LEAs would provide more students with the opportunity of further and higher education through the application of discretionary awards.

Mr. Howarth : The hon. Gentleman would do well to go back to Bradford and ask the authority one or two questions. The assumption on education spending that underlies the revenue support grant to local authorities this year allowed for increased spending on discretionary

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awards of 15 per cent. in 1991-92. If authorities are failing to increase their spending on discretionary awards commensurately, that is their decision.

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