House of Commons Hansard Debates for 13 Nov 1991

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Points of Order

3.32 pm

Mr. John McFall (Dumbarton) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I rise as a result of the intervention by the hon. Member for Cannock and Burntwood (Mr. Howarth). I was here from half-past two. The hon. Gentleman came in just five minutes ago. I stood up for six questions, not least for question No. 3, in which I have a constituency interest. In the light of the by-election result in Scotland and the fact that we have an opportunity only once a month to put our constituency interests, I appeal to you not to hear frivolous comments from Conservative Members but only real issues that concern Scottish Members of Parliament.

Several Hon. Members rose--

Mr. Speaker : Order. I do not need any help. This is a United Kingdom Parliament. The hon. Member for Cannock and Burntwood (Mr. Howarth) has as much right as anyone else to ask a question on a matter of general interest to the whole House of Commons. I am aware that it is not possible for me to call every Scottish Member at Scottish Question Time, but I thought that it was fair today--I hope that the House will agree--to get as far down the Order Paper as I possibily could.

Several Hon. Members rose--

Mr. Speaker : We managed to get down to question No. 19, and the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. McAllion) had already asked a question. That was not bad.

Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Would it be appropriate to remind the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. McFall) that this is the United Kingdom Parliament? If he wants home rule for Scotland, he can have it, and then we will have home rule for England as well.

Mr. Speaker : I have just said that this is a United Kingdom Parliament.

Sir David Steel (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is not the difficulty in which you are placed the fact that there are now only four Government Back-Bench Members representing Scotland, and 63 of different parties on the Opposition side of the House? Frankly, Mr. Speaker, if you are obliged to continue to apply the archaic rule in total contradiction of the balance of the parties in Scotland, this place will look increasingly irrelevant to the people of Scotland.

Several Hon. Members : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker : Order. Let me deal with one point at a time, please. I must keep a balance in this House. Hon. Members from Scottish constituencies have as much right as an hon. Member from an English constituency to raise a question on defence or any other matter-- [Interruption.] And they do. Equally, the whole House will have seen for itself how far we have moved down the Order Paper today and that I have called a number of English Members on hospital trust matters.

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Mr. Donald Dewar (Glasgow, Garscadden) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think that there is a general recognition on the Opposition side of the House that you have a difficult job at Scottish Question Time. I recognise that it is difficult to balance interests. That difficult situation is made infinitely worse and more galling to colleagues who have been rising repeatedly, question after question, without success, when a Conservative Member swans in, three quarters of the way through Scottish Question Time, and is instantly called.

Mr. Speaker : The hon. Member for Cannock and Burntwood (Mr. Howarth) was not instantly called.

Several Hon. Members rose --

Mr. Speaker : Order. Perhaps those hon. Members who have raised points of order have done a service to the hon. Members who wish to take part in the ballot. If I take one more, two more Members can sign the book.

Mr. Thomas Graham (Renfrew, West and Inverclyde) : As a Back Bencher, I need the opportunity of raising questions at Scottish Question Time. It is lamentable that the Government have not set up a Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, which could help us to deal with Scottish matters.

Mr. Speaker : That is as may be.

Several Hon. Members : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker : I had better take one from a Conservative Member now. I call a Member from Cornwall. [Laughter.]

Mr. David Harris (St. Ives) : Is not the root cause of your difficulties about the complaint that has been raised, Mr. Speaker, Scotland's gross over-representation in this House on matters relating to other parts of the United Kingdom?

Mr. Speaker : I cannot be involved with constitutional matters of that kind.

Several Hon. Members rose --

Mr. Ian Bruce (South Dorset) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker : No, I think that I had better take one from the Scottish National party.

Mr. Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) : This, of course, is the United Kingdom Parliament--many of us think that that is exactly the problem. However, as you have some discretion in these matters, Mr. Speaker, and while we wait for the Scottish electorate to remove the remainder of the Scottish Conservative party from this House, would it not be appropriate for you to give priority to Scottish Members at Scottish Question Time?

Mr. Speaker : If the hon. Gentleman looks at Hansard tomorrow, he will see that I have done exactly that.

Several Hon. Members rose --

Mr. Speaker : Order. We should now move on, because everybody-- Mr. Ian Bruce rose --

Mr. Bill Walker (Tayside, North) rose --

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Mr. Speaker : Order. We have a very heavy day ahead of us. I shall have to put a 10-minute limit on speeches, and the hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) might be affected by that.

Mr. Walker : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker : Very well : I shall trade the hon. Gentleman a point of order for a speech.

Mr. Walker : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am raising a point of order because my understanding is that this is the United Kingdom Parliament, which has representatives from all over the United Kingdom. The cornerstone of our democratic system is hon. Members' right to ask questions and to have those questions answered. Can you confirm, Sir, that you keep a record of the questions that have been asked and that, although the Scots comprise less than 9 per cent. of the United Kingdom population, their representatives regularly ask more than 9 per cent. of the questions that are raised in the House?

Mr. Speaker : I must now bring this matter to a conclusion. I do indeed keep a list of questions, but I advise hon. Members representing Scottish constituencies that the next time we have Scottish Questions those hon. Members who have been called today will not stand quite such a good chance of being included next time.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS FOR FRIDAY 29 NOVEMBER Members successful in the ballot were :

Mr. Derek Conway

Mr. Gavin Strang

Mr. John Bowis

Mr. Gerald Howarth (Cannock and Burntwood) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker : I do not think that I need any more points of order. I have taken my final point of order this afternoon. The Clerk will now proceed to read the Orders of the Day.

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Orders of the Day

Asylum Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

Mr. Speaker : I must announce to the House that I have selected the amendment--

Mr. Max Madden (Bradford, West) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker : Let me finish this first, please.

I have selected the amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition. In view of the pressure to participate in the debate, I shall put a precautionary limit of 10 minutes on speeches between 7 and 9 o'clock. If hon. Members who are called before 7 o'clock keep broadly to the time limit, it may be possible, in the interests of the whole House, for the occupant of the Chair to relax that limit later in the debate.

Mr. Madden rose --

Mr. Speaker : What is the point of order?

Mr. Madden : I am sorry to detain you and the House, but this is an important matter of order which affects the Bill. Later this month, the Commission for Racial Equality will consider instigating a judicial review against the Government's proposals to withdraw the green legal aid form in cases of political asylum and immigration. What opportunity will be given to a Law Officer to give advice to the House on the matter? The Home Secretary has told the Commission that he cannot give advice on the matter. There is widespread anxiety that the Bill may be a clear breach of the Race Relations Act 1976.

Mr. Speaker : The hon. Gentleman can raise those matters when I call him in the debate, as I hope to do. The Law Officers may attend the Standing Committee. That is a normal procedure.

3.40 pm

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Kenneth Baker) : I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

The Bill deals with the treatment of asylum seekers and procedures for determining their claims. As I made clear to the House on 2 July, the numbers of people seeking asylum pose major problems both in Britain and throughout the world. There have been more than half a million applications for asylum in Europe this year. Germany estimates that it will receive about a quarter of a million applications. The United Kingdom total, including dependants, will exceed 50,000--10 times the figure only three years ago. By the end of October we had received some 38,800 principal applications during this calendar year.

The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees has estimated that there are 17 million refugees and asylum seekers in the world. A phenomenon of that order cannot be ignored. It is not scaremongering or playing the numbers game to recognise and respond to changes on that scale. On the contrary, it would be a gross irresponsibility for the Government to ignore them and pretend that numbers do not matter.

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On the continent, political movements are already emerging which thrive on the flow of refugees and exploit naked nationalism. In France, Le Pen's party seems to have 30 per cent. support in opinion polls. Young fascists march in Germany and chant the slogans of the 1930s. In Austria this week, a far right-wing party has just won 22 per cent. of the votes, campaigning on a slogan of "Vienna for the Viennese". Those are disturbing trends, with resonances from the darkest period of European history. We must ensure that such movements are not given the opportunity to develop in our own country.

We have been working at improving race relations in Britain for over 30 years, under successive Governments. Some of the speeches by politicians of all parties on the continent in recent months would be simply unacceptable from a politician in Britain. I draw some comfort from that fact, because it reflects our maturity in dealing with such matters. But we must keep working at it. One of the most important messages that we must give to everyone in our country is that we have in place proper, fair and effective policies to deal with the unprecedented flow of asylum seekers.

Mr. Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) : Will the Secretary of State give way?

Mr. Michael Morris (Northampton, South) : Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Baker : No, I want to get into my speech. I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman and to my hon. Friend in a moment.

I remind the House of the measures which the Government have already taken, and of four in particular. First, we have increased by five times the staff who determine asylum claims to over 500 during this financial year ; 330 are already in post. Secondly, we have increased from £1,000 to £2,000 the charge under the Immigration (Carriers' Liability) Act 1987 for bringing improperly documented passengers to Britain. Thirdly, we have placed document specialists at Lagos airport. A second team is currently working at Moscow airport, which has become a major transit point for people without proper documents. Plans are well advanced for similar exercises elsewhere. Fourthly, we intend to increase the provision of detention places by 290.

Mr. Vaz : The right hon. Gentleman will recall that, when his predecessor introduced the Immigration Act 1987, he talked about providing a better customer service from Lunar house in Croydon. Does he not share part of the responsibility for the Government's failure to allocate more resources to deal with asylum applications at least four year ago when the problem first arose? Does he accept that what he has announced is not sufficient to deal with the applications from asylum seekers, let alone with other immigration applications which are bottling up Lunar house?

Mr. Baker : We are increasing resources constantly, not only at Lunar house but also in the naturalisation department in Liverpool, which is an aspect of that. We doubled resources in 1989, and as soon as I became Home Secretary, I realised that that was one of the most important issues that I would have to deal with. I therefore put in hand increases which are now in place.

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Mr. Michael Morris : Does my right hon. Friend recall the case of one Viraj Mendes? He will be aware that I have taken a great interest in Sri Lanka since I have been in the House. Is he aware that that gentleman hoodwinked the nation for about eight years and that in the end his wife made it clear that the man was entirely bogus? Is he aware that the Church was totally taken in, and everyone in Sri Lanka in the end made it absolutely clear that the man was bogus? When he returned to Sri Lanka, he returned to safety and, according to the latest reports, he is now in Germany. In those circumstances, my right hon. Friend's proposals are greatly to be welcomed, to ensure that Tamils who are genuine and need asylum can be properly considered.

Mr. Baker : I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. He specified the details of that case precisely. One of the most important points was that, after a long process when every possible avenue had been carefully and scrupulously explored, when Mr. Mendes was returned to Sri Lanka he suffered no persecution whatsoever.

Mr. Robert Hayward (Kingswood) : In reviewing the measures that have been introduced in the past few years, my right hon. Friend referred to carriers' liability. He will recognise that that is causing substantial problems for a number of carriers. Could he review the way in which the regulations work and their impact on some carriers?

Mr. Baker : We are providing a great deal of advice and training for officials of different carriers--and not merely for British Airways, because we do not expect airline officials to be immigration officers ; that is not their function. However, it is entirely right that we should ask them to check whether documentation is correct. I remind the House that we are not alone in doing so. Virtually every other country in Europe does it, Canada and America do it--fines in America are $5,000, and in Canada the penalty is $3,000--because all countries recognise that airlines have responsibility in that matter.

Mr. Peter Bottomley (Eltham) : There appears to be bipartisan agreement that bogus asylum seekers should be dealt with, but there is a good deal of concern among voluntary societies and practitioners. Could my right hon. Friend make it clear that, during the passage of the Bill, he and his colleagues will have consultations with those who make representations to ensure that their worries about links between people with different claims and the causes of large-scale immigration are considered together?

Mr. Baker : Yes, I shall certainly give that undertaking. We have already received a considerable number of representations. My hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for immigration matters met a delegation from various refugee groups yesterday. We shall certainly continue to receive representations during the passage of the Bill. Ms. Clare Short (Birmingham, Ladywood) rose --

Mr. Baker : I shall give way to the hon. Lady, but then I must proceed with my speech.

Ms. Short : Will the Home Secretary admit that the problem of bogus applications, and there are some, is entirely the responsibility of the Government, in that the enormous delays in processing applications, which cause great fear for real refugees, have encouraged bogus

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organisers of fraudulent claims, such as the friend of the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Dicks)? I wrote a long time ago to his Department and asked it to move against him and the Department failed to do so. There is a simple remedy : speed up the processing, and we will not have the problem. We do not need any other changes or legislation. The Government's inefficiency bears the whole responsibility.

Mr. Baker : I hope that the hon. Lady will vote for the Bill, because its purpose is to speed up the process. It is an absurdity to say that we are responsible for bogus applicants. Can the Government be held to blame for such claims as this--a Turkish Cypriot claiming asylum on the basis that her mother did not get on with her husband and was trying to break up her marriage? That is the sort of claim that one gets. I do not want to make too much of them, but there are bogus applications and they are completely clogging up the system. Several Hon. Members rose --

Mr. Baker : To get the balance right, I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor).

Sir Teddy Taylor (Southend, East) : In view of the serious situation that my right hon. Friend has outlined and the excellent policies that he is introducing to deal with it, can we have a clear assurance that the Government will resist any proposals at the Maastricht discussions to transfer immigration control to Brussels or the European Economic Community?

Mr. Baker : I have already made our position on that extremely clear. I am wholly opposed to a transfer of competence to the European Community on matters of asylum and immigration. That is our negotiating position. The matter is rather tangential to this Bill, but I am glad to clarify the position.

To respond to the phenomenon of asylum seeking is not in any way racialist. This is not about discriminating against non-white applicants. Eastern Europe remains a major cause for concern. Despite the growth of democracy there, the number of people from eastern Europe seeking asylum in the west has increased significantly. Nearly half of Germany's huge total of asylum seekers are European. Last week, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) accused me of being unduly alarmist when I referred to the figure of 7 million Russians wanting to leave the Soviet Union. That was not my figure ; it was given by a senior Soviet spokesman at a conference in Vienna that I attended with other Ministers of the Interior at the beginning of this year. He surprised and alarmed us all by saying that, following the liberalisation of exit controls, he expected that up to 7 million Soviet citizens would want to work in the west. Many might seek to use the asylum route and, indeed, it would be naive to think otherwise.

I was appalled when, in his party conference speech, the right hon. Gentleman said that we were preparing to play the race card in this matter. He has flirted with that theme. He has ducked, bobbed and weaved with it, but he is clearly embarrassed by it now. His hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Darling) has not attempted to get into this murky area. He has not followed the right hon. Gentleman's grubby lead.

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As I said at the Conservative party conference, I want to make it clear that our policy is colour blind. It applies to people wheresoever they come from, whether Africa, Asia or eastern Europe. The trouble with the right hon. Gentleman is that he has been searching for a way to do nothing about this problem. He would prefer to turn a blind eye to the problem of asylum seekers around the world. When he appears on television or in the media, he pooh-poohs and belittles it, and gives the impression that we are exaggerating the problem. He will not face up to the problem.

Faced with the evidence that we have, any responsible Home Secretary would act as I have acted. For the right hon. Gentleman to oppose the Bill and underestimate the problem that faces us shows that he is completely unsuited to hold this office. I suggest to him that he should overcome his natural sloth and complacency. [Interruption.] The only race card being played is being played by the right hon. Gentleman.

Several Hon. Members rose--

Mr. Baker : I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Hicks).

Mrs. Maureen Hicks (Wolverhampton, North-East) : Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is a question not of being racialist but of being realistic ? Is there not some hypocrisy when the Opposition talk of problems of unemployment and housing, yet suggest that we add to them-- [Interruption.] --by advocating an open-door immigration policy that will mean more people coming to our constituencies and competing for homes and jobs ? The people of Wolverhampton, all colours and creeds, live daily with that reality. May I assure the House that my right hon. Friend has their full support and that they are completely opposed to the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) ?

Mr. Baker : My hon. Friend should know that I will deal with the interaction between immigration policy and asylum seeking later. It is realistic to recognise that there is a significant problem with which we must deal and that it is right to do so.

Several Hon. Members rose--

Mr. Baker : I have given way a great deal, and I must pursue my speech.

It is clear that many people are now using asylum claims as a means of evading immigration control. As numbers rise, a decreasing proportion are found to qualify for refugee status. In 1980, in the United Kingdom, 64 per cent. of claimants were recognised as refugees. Last year, the figure was about 25 per cent. In Germany, it was less than 5 per cent.

I am anxious to find common ground in the country on this matter and I strongly suggest that it is important that that common ground is found. My view is shared by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. His director of international protection, Michel Moussalli, wrote in "Refugees" magazine--the UNHCR publication--in May :

"The majority of people coming as asylum seekers into Europe are not refugees but economic migrants."

He also said that they

"clog up the asylum procedures which cannot function normally any longer. This in turn proves to be an attraction

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to many destitute persons abroad, who feel that if they apply for refugee status in a Western country, they will be taken care of by the social welfare system of that country for a year or two, or even longer, while their claims are being examined."

Those are the words of the international protection director of the UNHCR, and he has touched upon an important point.

Applicants benefit from delays in determination systems and the complicated review procedures after the initial decision. That pattern is repeated across Europe ; that is why we must ensure that we reduce and not add to the delays when we change our system and introduce new rights.

Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) rose--

Mr. Baker : I have given way a great deal, and I must pursue my speech.

The category of "refugee" is defined in the 1951 United Nations convention. It is important to recognise the philosophical background to that definition. There is a basic assumption in international law--and in common sense--that a state will protect its citizens. That is the very reason for the existence of states. The 1951 convention is about citizens whom a state is actively seeking to harm. It is not enough to say that most asylum applicants are deserving because they come from "unstable" or "strife-torn" countries. It is not enough that a state is unlucky or incompetent in its economic, social or foreign policies--that jobs or food are scarce, or that it is at war with itself or with its neighbours.

By the 1951 convention, the international community has singled out the persecution of the individual on racial, religious or political grounds as the cause for special concern. I repeat clearly today that the Government will continue to honour their commitment to people in that category. We have followed that noble tradition over the centuries, and that category certainly exists.

When considering measures to resist the exploitation of our procedures by manifestly unfounded applicants, we should not forget the clearly well founded applicants--genuine refugees who often have harrowing stories of suffering, degradation and torture. We will continue to respond sympathetically to their needs.

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