House of Commons Hansard Debates for 20 Nov 1991

Mr. Beith : If Ministers are serious about wanting us not to be governed by unaccountable bureaucrats, why are they not leading in the argument that those decisions that have to be taken at European level are fully accountable to a stronger European Parliament that is elected by a fair system? Why are they resisting those arguments, or seeing them as concessions that might be made during negotiations?

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Mr. Garel-Jones : The Liberal party persists in referring to proportional representation as a fairer system. It is not fairer, it is different. One of the differences, in my view, is that it provides a foot in the door for extremist parties of the sort that we do not want in Britain.

Sir Peter Hordern : Is it not time to put an end to the fraud and corruption that go on within the European Community, as evidenced by the continual reports of the European Court of Auditors? Surely the European Parliament should be given powers to summon Commissioners and permanent secretaries of different countries to put those abuses to them.

Mr. Garel-Jones : My hon. Friend is right : he has raised one of the areas in which Britain has tried to take a lead in the discussions in the Community. We have advocated a considerable extension of the powers of the European Parliament in its work in scrutinising the Commission and ensuring that proper financial accountability is introduced. We hope that there will be new articles in the treaty to strengthen the role of the European Parliament in the area to which my hon. Friend has referred.

Mr. O'Hara : Will the Foreign Secretary enlist the co-operation of his partners in the European Community to address their attention to some of the living features of the history of Cyprus, to insist that every one of the 35,000 Turkish troops that occupy the northern part of Cyprus shall be withdrawn, and to send a message to the families of the 6,000 Greek Cypriots who were killed in 1974 and the sixteen hundred and--

Mr. Speaker : Order. This is a bit wide. The question is all about Europe.

Mr. O'Hara : --who are still debarred from returning to their homes? In their language : "Then xehna me"--"we forget not."

Mr. Garel-Jones : If I can try to link the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question to the Community, the fact is that Cyprus has applied for membership of the European Economic Community. That membership, along with others, will not be considered until 1993. When the Community came to consider the application, one of the things that it would wish to ensure was that the benefit of the membership would be available to the whole community.

Croatia

13. Mr. Butler : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will take measures to assist in the preservation of the integrity of Croatia.

Mr. Hurd : We and our EC partners have repeatedly made it clear that we will not recognise changes in Yugoslavia's internal borders unless they are brought about by peaceful negotiation. They cannot be brought about by force.

Mr. Butler : Why has the United Nations been so slow to act effectively to stop the Serb-led aggression reminiscent of the worst of communist thuggery?

Mr. Hurd : As I have said before, the focus is now on United Nations intervention. I do not think that any member of the United Nations, any more than Her

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Majesty's Government, would want to send their forces to fight their way into the situation. But the new factor is that both the Serbian and the Croatian leadership have said that they are willing in principle to accept a United Nations peacekeeping force. I accept that that puts the responsibility on the United Nations secretariat and on the Security Council.

Mr. Tony Banks : Will the Foreign Secretary go a bit further and say what the attitude is of the British Government? If the matter is being considered by the United Nations and a peacekeeping force is mounted, surely British and French troops, Western European Union troops, will be in the front line. What plans are being made to dispatch British troops to Yugoslavia?

Mr. Hurd : No such plans are being made.

Mr. Fry : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the best way to preserve the integrity of Croatia is to work for a permanent settlement after a lasting ceasefire, and that recognition is just one of the issues that has to be sorted out before there can be a successful conclusion? Others include dealing with the disputed areas, the resettlement of the dispossessed and, and a very important point, adequate rights for the minorities in Yugoslavia.

Mr. Hurd : My hon. Friend is right. Those are all matters that we are trying to persuade the different leaders in Yugoslavia to discuss. That is the purpose of the peace conference in The Hague, which they frequently attend and where they issue declarations and undertakings which they do not always respect when they get home. But we have to continue with that. My hon. Friend is right : if one tries to pick out one element and not the others, the result may not be beneficial.

Germany

14. Mr. Winnick : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many British diplomatic staff are stationed in Germany ; and what their responsibilities are with regard to human rights issues.

Mr. Garel-Jones : The number is 81. The embassy and or consulates- general have a responsibility for providing regular reporting and analysis of issues in Germany, including human rights, relevant to United Kingdom interests.

Mr. Winnick : Has the British embassy in Germany made it clear to the German authorities how deeply shocking and despicable have been the racist attacks by Nazi thugs there? Is the Minister aware that it is extremely unfortunate that once again Labour Members of Parliament in the House of Commons have to protest against racism, Nazi hooliganism and Nazi thugs operating on German soil? We do not require lectures from Germany about federalism and union and so on ; we require Germany to put its own house in order.

Mr. Garel-Jones : I do not think that there is a question of lecturing either of Germany by us or of us by Germany. Our distaste and disgust at the events in Germany are shared 100 per cent. by the German Administration and, as every opinion poll shows, by the vast majority of decent German people. Therefore, we do not have to make any firm representations to the German Government in such matters ; they feel exactly as we do about them.

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Hong Kong

15. Mr. David Young : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what legal advice is available to Vietnamese boat people during the screening process when they claim refugee status ; what is done to inform applicants for refugee status of their rights ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Hurd : Under the comprehensive plan of action, responsibility for advice about screening falls to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, which briefs all Vietnamese migrants on arrival. The Hong Kong authorities also provide a pamphlet in Vietnamese to all migrants explaining the screening procedures in detail. The UNHCR also provides legal advice and help to migrants at all stages of the screening and review process.

Mr. Young : How many of the boat people have been granted refugee status? Has any pressure been brought on Her Majesty's Government by the Chinese, the butchers of Tiananmen square, to expedite the return of, or to remove any rights from, those refugees?

Mr. Hurd : I can write to the hon. Gentleman with the figures, but the majority of arrivals from Vietnam who are screened are found not to be refugees. Only those who are screened out--who are found by that procedure not to be refugees--are sent back to Vietnam. That matter is one on which the people of Hong Kong feel very strongly. We have made repeated statements on our policy to the House, and it is not a matter on which we need to take advice or instructions from the People's Republic of China.

Mr. Harris : Does my right hon. Friend accept that those of us who have observed the screening process in the camps in Hong Kong have been greatly impressed by its thoroughness and fairness? Will my right hon. Friend and others involved in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office accept congratulations on the patience with which that huge problem has been tackled? Most of us are pleased that those people who are not political refugees are sent back to Vietnam.

Mr. Hurd : I am very grateful to my hon. Friend, who has put his finger on the real point. It is not reasonable to expect Hong Kong to continue to accept, year in, year out, large numbers of people coming from Vietnam--not because they have a well founded fear of persecution, but because they want to better the economic lot of themselves and their families. Hong Kong cannot continue to accept that situation.

EC Commissioners

16. Mr. Cryer : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the accountability of Commissioners of the EC to the Council of Ministers.

Mr. Garel-Jones : European Community Commissioners are appointed by common accord of the member states, but the main responsibility for ensuring the accountability of the Commission rests with the European Parliament. We believe that that role should be strengthened. We have put forward a number of proposals

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to this effect in the political union intergovernmental conference. They have received a broad measure of support.

Mr. Cryer : Is the Minister not concerned about the Commission's power to investigate various nooks and crannies of our national life? Does he agree that, if the Dutch treaty and article 103A are adopted by a qualified majority of the Council of Ministers--which is a procedure that the Government apparently accept--the Commissioners will have the power to issue secret instructions commanding the economy of another member state? Does the Minister oppose that, or will the road to Maastricht be littered with hypocrisy?

Mr. Garel-Jones : The hon. Gentleman is of course a great expert in hypocrisy, and in the Community too--because he served as a European Member of Parliament when he was last defeated as a Member of the House of Commons ; no doubt he will have to return there after the next general election. The hon. Gentleman referred to the nooks and crannies of the Dutch text. It may have escaped his notice that that text was removed from the negotiations about two months ago.

Mr. Lawrence : Is my hon. Friend aware that many of us believe that there must be no further transfer of accountability from the Westminster Government or Westminster Parliament to any institutions in Europe, unless that is approved by the British people in a referendum?

Mr. Garel-Jones : The views of this Government and of previous Governments on referendums are well known. We held a referendum on Britain's membership of the Community in order to extract the Labour party from the difficulty that it was in at the time. The result was overwhelming. I see no purpose in a further referendum on that matter--we are a parliamentary democracy.

Mr. Beggs rose--

Mr. Cryer : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the Government's unsatisfactory reply, I intend to raise that matter again on the Adjournment.

Mr. Speaker : That loses the opportunity for the hon. Member for Antrim, East (Mr. Beggs) to ask a supplementary question.

Africa

17. Mr. Peter Bottomley : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress is being made towards multi-party democracy in Africa.

Mrs. Chalker : We welcome the fact that most countries in Africa practise, or are moving towards, multi-party democracy. We shall encourage all of them to do so, and to start and maintain good government practices.

Mr. Bottomley : Given the British Government's determination to provide official aid to democratic countries--we are seeing the emergence of a growing number of them--does my hon. Friend agree that it would be proper and popular over the next five years to halve the gap between our official aid and the United Nations target? Should not we include such a policy in our manifesto for the next general election?

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Mrs. Chalker : I do not think that that is a question for me to answer from the Dispatch Box. I will say, however, that I expect all the countries that we assist to make further progress towards democracy and increased accountability : we consider that vital. Countries must also be willing to move towards multi-party democracy, and to ensure that there is a chance for dialogue to take place. When those goals are respected, we may have the opportunity to spend increasing amounts.

Mr. Corbett : Will the Minister confirm that Kenya and Malawi are the largest African recipients of British aid, and that both are one-party states which show no signs of progress towards multi-party democracy? In the light of that, will she review the aid programme?

Mrs. Chalker : The hon. Gentleman may not have noted the fact that we continue to encourage the Malawian Government to apply the principles of accountable government that they endorsed at the Harare Heads of Government meeting. Following their failure to do so, we have already cut balance of payments support for Malawi.

We have constantly stressed to the Kenyan Government the need to respect freedom of expression and the important outlets for legitimate dissent. We hope that those who have been arrested will be released immediately. We have told them that the suppression of opposing views is not the way forward, and have called for further progress towards democracy and greater public accountability. I am encouraged by the fact that President Moi has expressed his willingness to move towards multi-party democracy, and by the recent indications that fresh general elections may be held early next year. We shall urge the continuation of all the recent moves to root out corruption in that and every other recipient of our aid.

Miss Emma Nicholson : I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the carefully targeted aid that she has given to Zambia in recent years. It has led to the election of President Chiluba, leader of the country's multi- party democracy movement. Does my right hon. Friend believe that, as a result, multi-party democracy will be adopted in Kenya at an early opportunity?

Mrs. Chalker : I cannot really add to the answer that I gave the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Mr. Corbett). However, I pay tribute to all Zambians for the peaceful conduct of the recent multi-party election.

The Zambians have chosen their President and their Government. President Chiluba has our best wishes to help him get on with the job ; we shall do our best to assist him, because the election was a fine example of the principles that we endorsed at the recent Heads of Government meeting in Harare. We hope that there will soon be great progress in Zambia.

Indonesia

18. Mr. David Marshall : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on relations with the Government of Indonesia.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : As I have already said, the Government are seriously concerned about the shootings in East Timor on 12 November. My noble Friend the Minister of State expressed that concern to the Indonesian

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ambassador on 13 November. We are urgently seeking clarification of the reports of further shootings on 15 November.

Mr. Marshall : Further to the very unsatisfactory replies that the Minister has given not only to me but, earlier, to my hon. Friends the Members for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. Dunnachie) and for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes), may I ask whether the Government consider the Indonesian occupation of East Timor to be illegal? Regardless of the Indonesian investigation, will the Minister tell us exactly what the Government intend to do to convey to Indonesia the message that the international community simply will not tolerate outrages such as last week's massacre of innocent mourners in East Timor?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : Her Majesty's Government most certainly do not recognise the incorporation of East Timor into Indonesia. As I have said, we have expressed our grave concern.

Mr. Lester : My hon. Friend will know that many of us were awaiting a visit by a Portuguese parliamentary delegation to East Timor to analyse the situation there. We know now from the Portuguese Government that that delegation has been called off because of the recent tragic events in East Timor. Does my hon. Friend agree that what has happened in East Timor is the very opposite of good governance and that that ought to influence our aid programme to Indonesia?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : I have no doubt that, in the light of developments, the Government and our Community partners will be looking at the very matters to which my hon. Friend has drawn attention.

Mr. Jacques Delors

19. Mr. McWilliam : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he intends to arrange a meeting with the President of the European Commission to discuss recent comments on his views.

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Mr. Hurd : No need. The President of the Commission and I hear each others views directly, across the table in EC meetings, several times a month and always, I hope, with benefit.

Mr. McWilliam : When the Secretary of State next meets the President, will he tell him why he alone, of all the Foreign Secretaries, left or right, within the European Community rejects the social charter? What is he afraid of?

Mr. Hurd : I have already explained, I think three times, in the hearing of President Delors why this Government are not prepared to put at risk the striking progress that has been made in industrial relations in this country since 1979.

Mr. Beggs : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As I was called by you on Question 16, only to be discourteously interrupted by the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer), will you refer to the Procedure Committee whether or not such an interruption should be permitted as a means of closing a question, or whether Members should be afforded the courtesy of asking their question, after such an interruption, when Question Time ends?

Mr. Speaker : It is not for me to refer that matter to the Select Committee. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to do so, he should do that himself. May I draw to his attention, and to the attention of the whole House, page 296 of "Erskine May"? It is clearly stated there that, if the hon. Member who originated the question rises and states that he intends to seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment, that is the end of that particular question.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS FORFRIDAY 6 DECEMBER Members successful in the ballot were :

Ms. Joyce Quin

Mr. Hugo Summerson

Sir Bernard Braine

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