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Column 397
House of Commons
Thursday 21 November 1991
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[ Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
British Railways Bill
(By Order)
Order for consideration, as amended, read.
To be considered on Thursday 28 November.
MOTIONS FOR UNOPPOSED RETURNS
Business of the House
Return ordered, for Session 1990-91 of--
(1) the total number of Questions to Ministers or other Members which stood on the Order Paper, distinguishing
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those set down for oral, written priority and written answer respectively, the number of days upon which replies to Questions for oral answer were given in the House ; and the total number of Questions for oral answer to which such answers were given in the House ;(2) the total number of Notices of Motions given for an early day ;
(3) the number of Members ordered to withdraw from the House under Standing Order No. 42 (Disorderly conduct), showing separately the orders given in the House and those given in Committee ; and the Members suspended from the service of the House under Standing Order No. 43 (Order in debate) or otherwise, distinguishing whether the offence was committed in the House or in Committee, the period of such suspension, the number of occasions on which more than one Member was so suspended having jointly disregarded the authority of the Chair, and the number of occasions on which the attention of the House was called to the need for recourse to force to compel obedience to Mr. Speaker's direction ; and
(4) the number of public petitions presented to the House distinguishing separately those brought to the Table at the times specified by Standing Order No. 133 (Time and manner of presenting petitions).-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
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Closure of Debate and Allocation of Time
Return ordered,
for Session 1990-91 of-
(a) applications of Standing Order No. 35 (Closure of debate)-
(1) in the House and in Committee of the whole House, under the following
heads:
1 |2 |3 |4 |5 |6
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date when |Question before |Whether in |Whether assent |Assent withheld because,|Result of Motion
Closure claimed, |House or |House or |given to Motion |in the opinion of the |and, if a Division,
and by whom |Committee |Committee |or withheld by |Chair, a decision would |Numbers for
|when claimed |the Chair |shortly be arrived at |and against
|without that Motion
and
(2) in Standing Committees under the following heads:
1 |2 |3 |4 |5
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date when |Question before |Whether assent |Assent withheld because,|Result of Motion,
Closure claimed, |Committee when |given to Motion |in the opinion of the |and, if a Division,
and by whom |claimed |or withheld by |Chair, a decision would |Numbers for
|the Chair |shortly be arrived at |and against
|without that Motion
and
(b) applications of Standing Order No. 28 (Powers of Chair to propose question)-
(1)in the House and in Committee of the whole House, under the following
heads
1 |2 |3 |4 |5
Date when |Whether in |Whether claimed |Whether assent |Result of Motion,
Closure claimed, |House or |in respect of |given to Motion |and, if a Division,
and by whom |Committee |Motion or |or witheld by |Numbers for
|Amendment |the Chair |and against
and
(b) applications of Standing Order No. 28 (Powers of Chair to propose question)--
(1) in the House and in Committee of the whole House, under the following heads :
1 2 3 4 5
Date when
Closure claimed,
and by whom Whether in
House or
Committee Whether claimed
in respect of
Motion or
Amendment Whether assent
given to Motion
or withheld by
the Chair Result of Motion,
and, if a Division,
Numbers for
and against
and
(2) in Standing Committees under the following heads:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(ii) the number of days or portions of days allotted by the allocation of time order and any supplementary order to the consideration of the Bill at any stage in the House or in committee, together with the number of days upon which proceedings were so taken in the House or in committee.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Delegated Legislation
Return ordered,
for Session 1990-91 of--
(A) the numbers of Instruments subject to the different forms of parliamentary procedure and those for which no parliamentary procedure is prescribed by statute (1) laid before the House ; and (2) considered by the Joint Committee
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and Select Committee on Statutory Instruments respectively pursuant to their orders of reference, setting out the grounds on which Instruments may be drawn to the special attention of the House under Standing Order No. 124 (Statutory Instruments (Joint Committee)) and specifying the number of Instruments so reported under each of these grounds ; and(B) The numbers of Instruments considered by a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c., and by the House
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respectively, showing the number where the Question on the proceedings relating thereto was put forthwith under Standing Order No. 101(5) (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.).-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]Private Bills and Private Business
Return ordered, for Session 1990-91 of--
(1) the number of Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, Bills for the confirmation of Orders under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders introduced into this House, and brought from the House of Lords, and of Acts passed, specifying also the dates of the House's consideration of the several stages of such Bills ;
(2) all Private Bills, Hybrid Bills and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders which were reported on by Committees on Opposed Bills or by Committees nominated by the House or partly by the House and partly by the Committee of Selection, together with the names of the selected Members who served on each Committee ; the first and also the last day of the sitting of each Committee ; the number of days on which each Committee sat ; the number of days on which each selected Member served ; the number of days occupied by each Bill in Committee ; the Bills of which the Preambles were reported to have been not proved ; and in the case of Bills for confirming Provisional Orders, whether the Provisional Order ought or ought not to be confirmed ;
(3) all Private Bills and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders which were referred by the Committee of Selection to the Committee on unopposed Bills, together with the names of the Members who served on the Committee ; the number of days on which the Committee sat ; and the number of days on which each Member attended ;
(4) the number of Bills to confirm Orders under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, distinguishing those proceeded with under section 7 and under section 9 respectively ; specifying, in the case of Bills proceeded with under section 9 against which petitions were deposited, whether a motion was made to refer the Bill to a Joint Committee, and if so whether such motion was agreed to, withdrawn, negatived or otherwise disposed of ; and stating for each Joint Committee to which a Bill was referred the names of the Members of this House nominated thereto, the first and last day of the Committee's sitting, the number of days on which each Joint Committee sat for the consideration of the Bill referred to it, the number of days on which each Member of the Committee served, and whether the Committee reported that the order ought or ought not to be confirmed ;
(5) the number of Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, Bills for the confirmation of Orders under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders withdrawn or not proceeded with by the parties, those Bills being specified which were referred to Committees and dropped during the sittings of the Committee ; and
(6) the membership, work costs and staff of the Court of Referees and the Standing Orders Committee.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Public Bills
Return ordered , for Session 1990-91 of--
The number of Public Bills (other than Bills to confirm Provisional Orders and Bills to confirm Orders under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936) distinguishing Government from other Bills, introduced into this House, or brought from the House of Lords, showing : (1) the number which received the Royal Assent, and (2) the number which did not receive the Royal Assent, indicating those which were introduced into but not passed by this House, those passed by this House but not by the House of Lords, those passed by the House of Lords but not by this House, those passed by both Houses but Amendments not agreed to ; and distinguishing the stages at which such Bills were dropped, postponed or rejected in either House of Parliament,
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or the stages which such Bills had reached by the time of Prorogation.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]Sittings of the House
Return ordered,
for Session 1990-91 of--
the days on which the House sat ; stating for each day the day of the month and day of the week, the hour of the meeting, and the hour of the adjournment ; the total numbers of hours occupied in the sittings of the House ; and the average time ; showing the number of hours on which the House sat each day and the number of hours after the time appointed for the interruption of business ; and specifying, for each principal type of business before the House, how much time was spent thereon, distinguishing from the total the time spent after the hour appointed for the interruption of business.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Special Procedure Orders
Return ordered,
for Session 1990-91 of--
(1) the number of Special Procedure Orders presented, the number withdrawn ; the number annulled ; the number against which Petitions or copies of Petitions were deposited ; the number of Petitions of General Objection and for Amendment respectively considered by the Chairmen ; the number of such petitions certified by the Chairmen as proper to be received and the number certified by them as being Petitions of General Objection and for Amendment respectively ; the number referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses ; the number reported with Amendments by a Joint Committee, and the number in relation to which a Joint Committee reported that the Order be not approved and be amended respectively ; and the number of Bills introduced for the confirmation of Special Procedure Orders ; and (2) Special Procedure Orders which were referred to a Joint Committee, together with the names of the Commons Members who served on each Committee ; the number of days on which each Committee sat ; and the number of days on which each such Member attended.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Standing Committees
Return ordered, for Session 1990-91 of--
(1) the total number and the names of all Members (including and distinguishing Chairmen) who have been appointed to serve on one or more Standing Committees showing, with regard to each of such Members, the number of sittings to which he was summoned and at which he was present ; (2) the number of Bills, Estimates, Matters and other items referred to Standing Committees pursuant to Standing Order No. 101 (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.), or Standing Order 102 (European Standing Committees) considered by all and by each of the Standing Committees, the number of sittings of each Committee and the titles of all Bills, Estimates, Matters and other items as above considered by a Committee, distinguishing where a Bill was a Government Bill or was brought from the House of Lords, and showing in the case of each Bill, Estimate, Matter and other item, the particular Committee by which it was considered, the number of sittings at which it was considered (including, in the case of the Scottish Grand Committee, the number of Meetings held in Edinburgh, pursuant to a motion made under Standing Order No. 94(3) (Scottish Grand Committee)) and the number of Members present at each of those sittings ; and (3) the membership, work costs and staff of the Chairmen's Panel.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Select Committees
Return ordered, for Session 1990-91 of--
statistics relating to the membership, work costs and staff of Select Committees (other than the Standing Orders Committee).-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
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Oral Answers to Questions
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
Surplus Food and Drink
1. Mr. Canavan : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the total volume and value of surplus food and drink stocks in (a) the United Kingdom and (b) the European Community.
The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. John Gummer) : We place volume figures in the Library each month. The latest values are £197 million in the United Kingdom and £2,297 million in the European Community.
Mr. Canavan : As the amount of surplus food is even greater than last year, will the Government ensure that at the forthcoming Maastricht summit a high priority is given to the eradication of the absurd and immoral common agricultural policy? Until that is done, will the Government adopt a more generous attitude towards pensioners and others on low incomes by distributing more of the surplus food to them, especially in the lead-up to the Christmas season?
Mr. Gummer : I note that the hon. Gentleman has signified his opposition to the Labour party's policy of abject surrender to the rest of Europe in a motion that he has signed. He has again pointed to the immense divisions in the Labour party on the subject of Europe. It would have been better if he had understood that this is not a subject for Maastricht. It is under immediate and continual discussion in the European Council of Agriculture Ministers, which is undertaking a wholesale reform of the common agricultural policy. That reform has been demanded by the Government and I intend to ensure that it is to the benefit of farmers, consumers and taxpayers alike.
Mr. Robert Banks : Will my right hon. Friend do all that he can to ensure that surplus food within the Community and outside is sent as quickly as possible to the Soviet Union and eastern European countries, where there are cases of terrible poverty and a shortage of foodstuffs? I should be grateful if he would do all that he can for them.
Mr. Gummer : My hon. Friend is right to point to the distinction between free enterprise in western Europe, where we have too much food, and to eastern Europe under the socialist system which has too little. We are trying to increase the amount of triangular trade, which enables the former socialist countries of eastern Europe to provide for the needs of the Soviet Union, as they used to do. We shall be funding that through the generous offers of the European Community and the bilateral offers that we have been making.
Mr. Ron Davies : Does the Minister agree that the MacSharry proposals, which are supposed to deal with the excesses of the common agricultural policy will, if accepted, breach the legally agreed budgetary guidelines for several years to come? Will the Minister continue to press in the Council for a reduction in commodity price support and in export restitutions? Will he also press for an
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increase in resources diverted to environmental payments? Finally, will he give a firm guarantee to the House that he will veto any agreement that leads to a breach of those budgetary guidelines?Mr. Gummer : I thank the hon. Gentleman for making those points, but I was surprised that he did not put first the fact that my duty is to fight to ensure that British farmers, taxpayers and consumers are not disadvantaged by the MacSharry proposals. The fact that the hon. Gentleman did not include that in his list shows that Labour Members have no interest in British farming and it betrays their total lack of farming policies.
Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman : Does my right hon. Friend accept that farmers in this country are pleased by his efforts to encourage triangular trade, thus stopping products from eastern Europe flooding and undermining the market in Britain?
Mr. Gummer : My hon. Friend would agree that we must make greater access available for eastern European products, but that they should be at a price that produces a significant return to enable eastern European countries to uphold the growth in their economies, rather than be used as a source of cheap imports, the profits going to the processors in western Europe. Triangular trade helps in that mix. I still want greater access, but I want it at a price that benefits the economies that we are trying to support.
Ducks
2. Mr. Salmond : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he expects to agree to a meeting to discuss the case of Mr. Johnston, a constituent of the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan, and the slaughter of his duck flock under Ministry regulations.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. David Maclean) : I have explained the Ministry's position to the hon. Member in two detailed letters and there would be nothing that I could add at a meeting.
Mr. Salmond : The Minister knows the background to this case. My constituent, Mr. Johnston, lost everything due to a salmonella outbreak on his duck farm. There are legitimate questions that he wishes to pursue about whether the Ministry's policies have been consistent in respect of, first, the Grampian outbreak and, secondly, the outbreak of salmonella at the Kent supplier to the Grampian duck farm. Why has it taken the Ministry seven weeks to reply to my letter asking for a meeting, merely to say no? Is the Minister aware that the replies so far do not satisfy the legitimate questions asked by myself, by my constituent and by the medical officers in Grampian region? Does he acknowledge the right of hon. Members to seek meetings to defend the interests of their constituents? If not, why not?
Mr. Maclean : I often meet hon. Members where there are appropriate issues to discuss. As has already been explained to the hon. Gentleman, the policy has been applied evenly and consistently in this case and his constituent has now gone to arbitration. However, in view of the hon. Gentleman's outrageous comments on the radio this week, I shall be delighted to give a full public
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account of our policy and the conditions on Sharnidubs farm and I shall put them on the record in the House if the hon. Gentleman applies for a debate.Mr. Bill Walker : Does my hon. Friend agree--Hon. Members : Sit down.
Mr. Salmond : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wish to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.
Mr. Speaker : As I had already called the hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker), he had better ask his supplementary question. [Hon. Members :-- "No."] I had already called him and he had started his supplementary.
Mr. Walker : Whatever the merit or otherwise of the case in question, does my hon. Friend read into it that the Scottish National party is calling for different standards in Scotland ? Are those standards likely to be higher or lower than the standards in England ? Mr. Maclean : The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) seems to be implying that there is an English duck conspiracy against Scottish ducks. The state veterinary service operates over the whole country and applies even and consistent standards. Many of the excellent Scottish food producers whom I meet are proud that in the United Kingdom standards are among the finest in Europe and they want to keep them that way.
Sugar Beet Growers
3. Mr. Bellingham : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what recent representations he has received from sugar beet growers in Norfolk.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. David Curry) : We are in frequent contact with sugar beet growers about rhizomania.
Mr. Bellingham : The beet growers in my constituency are very happy with the Government's policy on ducks. Is my hon. Friend aware, however, that those beet growers have had a black cloud hanging over their operations in recent years because of the threat of rhizomania? Although, mercifully, there has not been an outbreak this year, a number of farmers have been affected during the last few years, with great consequences for their livelihood and farms. Is not it time that the Government had a comprehensive policy and package for dealing with the problem?
Mr. Curry : The Government have a comprehensive policy, which is to be absolutely categorical in preventing the spread of rhizomania. Had we not held the line last year, we may not have had a test of more than 2,300 samples this year with no results being positive. However, I wish to maintain the flexibility to deal with individual circumstances. We have done that, which is why I am not prepared to lay down a categorical guideline that would hinder my ability to be flexible within the bounds of keeping that disease under control.
Live Animals (Transport)
4. Mr. Butler : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether the minimum value system for the transport of horses will be maintained.
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15. Mr. Carrington : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a further statement on the recent agreement in the Agriculture Council on the transport of horses and other animals.
Mr. Gummer : The Government have successfully negotiated in the Agriculture Council the retention of our controls designed to prevent the export of horses and ponies for slaughter. The Council also agreed to return to the issue at a later stage with a view to setting special welfare conditions for all transport of horses in the Community.
Mr. Butler : I congratulate my right hon. Friend on that splendid achievement. Will he assure the House that in future he will repel attacks on traditional British practices?
Mr. Gummer : In fact, we have been defending a traditional British non-practice. I should like to extend our attitude towards all animals, especially horses, to other countries in the Community. We have much to learn from them about a number of matters--not least, for example, the way some of them treat children. However, they could learn a great deal from us about how to treat animals, and I intend to take that line continually in the Council.
Mr. Carrington : My right hon. Friend will know that there is still grave concern about how our European Community partners treat animals in their husbandry and farming. Will he ensure that the best practices that are common in this country become European Community policy and enforceable in other European countries?
Mr. Gummer : I am very much encouraged by the number of other countries in the European Community that are beginning to accept our views on those matters. In the meantime, we shall continue to set the example. I hope that those people who press me for higher welfare standards in this country will remember that it costs money. When they buy veal or pigmeat products, I hope that they will remember that they should buy them from the country where standards are the highest.
Mr. Geraint Howells : I congratulate the Minister on his stand and achievements. I am sure that he has read the latest survey from Europe, according to which British farmers are farming at a loss while their counterparts in Holland and Greece are farming at a profit. Why does that happen?
Mr. Gummer : First, it is characteristically kind of the hon. Gentleman to offer his congratulations when they are in order. I much appreciate that. The second half of his question is not necessarily connected with the first. British farming is under considerable pressure at the moment, which is why I am fighting hard against the suggestion that we should discriminate in some way against British farmers, who are characterised in the rest of Europe as being better off than their European partners. That is not so and we must show that family farms in Britain need the same support as family farms elsewhere in Europe.
Mr. Harry Barnes : The Minister will be aware of the excellent resolution that came out of European Standing Committee A, saying that the Government should stand by legislation on the transport of animals. There are 15 pieces of such legislation. Will the Minister assure us that
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the resolution, as adopted by the House, is being pursued rigorously in the Council of Ministers? Is the current deal temporary or permanent?Mr. Gummer : I much appreciate the support that has been given by that Committee. I hope that the hon. Gentleman agrees that, on this specific question, we have managed to get the Community to accept much higher standards on the transport of live animals--much closer to what we stand for--than it ever has. There are still additional points to be discussed before those decisions can be reached, including specific hours, for which we must press. I undertake to the House that I shall continue to make that a very high priority.
I am as yet the only Minister in the Community who takes animal welfare matters seriously. I am increasingly gaining support from our Dutch and German friends and I hope ultimately to have everyone's support. [Laughter.] Those who think the subject amusing should remember that animal welfare is of considerable importance to the House, not something about which to make jokes.
Mr. Harry Greenway : Will my right hon. Friend accept the thanks and congratulations of all those who love man's very best friend, the horse, for his protective action on horses--
Mr. Canavan : Speak for yourself.
Mr. Greenway : Man also loves other animals, but his best friend is the horse.
Does my right hon. Friend accept that the Commission's action is not final? Will he promise the House and the nation that he will not rest until it is guaranteed that minimum values on horses dedicated for export from this country will be preserved and our excellent attitude towards horses and other animals is spread throughout the rest of the Community?
Mr. Gummer : I thank my hon. Friend. I hope that he knows that I have fought hard on the issue and shall continue to do so, not only to defend our attitude towards animals in Britain, but to spread those attitudes to other countries. I find the nationalistic view that we should defend animals only in this country somewhat odd. As a strong supporter of our membership of the Community, I want to use the basis of our membership to spread more widely our general attitude to animal welfare, which is supported by Conservatives and giggled at by the Opposition.
Fish Lorries
5. Mr. Foulkes : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what representations he has made to the French Government concerning the blockade of British fish lorries at Boulogne and Dieppe.
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