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Wandsworth Prison (Diplomatic Bags)
3.30 pm
Mr. Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (by private notice) : To ask the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary if he will make a statement about the diplomatic bags which have been lost in Wandsworth prison.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd) : We learned some days ago that bags containing Canadian diplomatic mail had been discovered by staff at Wandsworth prison. Diplomatic bags are routinely sent to Wandsworth prison for laundering. [Laughter.]
Mr. Speaker : Order. I imagine that it is a Foreign Office brief. Come on.
Mr. Lennox-Boyd : I must get the answer right. On this occasion, the Canadian bags in question had been inadvertently included in such a consignment sent to Wandsworth. Steps were immediately taken to recover the diplomatic mail and to investigate the incident.
Mr. Kaufman : I am sorry--I hoped that there would be more. Will the hon. Gentleman explain why the question is not being answered by the Home Secretary? On Monday-- [Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker : Order. I remind the House that we have a busy day ahead of us. Interruptions will take up time.
Mr. Kaufman : On Monday, dealing with one case, the Home Secretary hid behind his predecessor. On another case, he hid behind his legal advisers and a junior Home Office Minister. Today, he is hiding behind the most junior available Minister in another Department. Will the hon. Gentleman say what action has been taken to explain why the missing material was left in the bags sent to Wandsworth prison? Will he explain exactly when it was discovered that that material was in the bags sent to Wandsworth prison and when the search for it started? Is it true that an interval of several days elapsed between the discovery and the search? How much material is still missing? Is a search still going on for missing material? How much of that material, missing or retrieved, is sensitive material? [Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker : Order. This is taking a long time. The right hon. Gentleman should be allowed to complete his question.
Mr. Kaufman : Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House whether a watch was in the missing material and what guarantees-- [Laughter.]
Mr. Kaufman : What guarantees can the Minister provide that other metal objects cannot find their way into prison in the way in which that did and disappear as it did? When was the Home Secretary informed about this latest episode? Why have the Government not made it public? Would they have made it public if prison officers had not been aware of it? The hon. Gentleman says that the Government sent the material to be laundered-- [Laughter.]
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Mr. Kaufman : Are the Government going to send other material that they want to launder to Wandsworth prison or are they now going to come clean about this episode? [Laughter.]
Mr. Lennox-Boyd rose --
Mr. Lennox-Boyd : May I take the right hon. Gentleman's question seriously? [ Hon. Members-- : "No."] Clearly, this is a matter for the Foreign Office-- [Laughter.]
Mr. Speaker : Order. I am beginning to wonder whether I should have granted this private notice question.
Mr. Lennox-Boyd rose --
Mr. Joseph Ashton (Bassetlaw) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This is your responsibility. There are3 million people on the dole and this country is in a deep economic crisis, yet all this is being shown on television and it is a disgrace.
Mr. Speaker : Order. Let us get this over as quickly as we can.
Mr. Lennox-Boyd : This is a private notice question tabled by the Opposition. The Government have a duty and I am here to answer it-- [Interruption] --if the House will give me an opportunity. I think that this is important-- [Interruption.] I am sure that the House will agree that this is important and that I should explain the background to the answer that I have previously given. I am sure that the House will bear with me for one or two minutes while I explain what has happened on this occasion. It is a serious matter. The position is that the Canadian Government routinely send their diplomatic bags-- [Laughter.] Should I go on?--to the Foreign Office for onward transmission-- [Laughter.]
Mr. Speaker : Order. When I decided to grant this private notice question, I took it to be a serious matter and I should like it to be taken seriously.
Mr. Lennox-Boyd : On this occasion, some of their bags were contained in the white diplomatic bag belonging to the Foreign Office, which they were using for convenience to contain their consignment-- [Laughter.] --and, as I have explained to the House, that was the commencement of the error in question which, of course, we very much regret.
I have come to the House this afternoon from a meeting with a representative of the Canadian High Commission, with which we have been in constant touch from the outset of the incident. It is perfectly satisfied with the outcome of the preliminary investigation.
Mr. Robert MacLennan (Caithness and Sutherland) : Is not the difficulty that the Home Secretary is incapable of keeping in prison those people who should be and keeping out of prison those things which should not be?
Mr. Lennox-Boyd : That is as absurd a political point as was made by the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton, (Mr. Kaufman). Clearly, this is not a matter for the Home Secretary. It occurred in the Foreign Office and
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the Foreign Office, and I personally take full responsibility for it this afternoon before the House. Cheap politics is no way to investigate the matter.Sir Peter Tapsell (East Lindsey) : Bearing in mind the fact that Prince Metternich eventually left Vienna disguised in a laundry basket-- [Laughter.] --is not it clear that this incident is in the highest diplomatic tradition? Can my hon. and diplomatic Friend assure us that these important diplomatic communications were not ultimately put to any ignoble use?
Mr. Lennox-Boyd : As we know, Prince Metternich was not the only person to be put into a diplomatic bag. It happened on other occasions, but not on this one. Our friends in the Canadian High Commission and the Canadian Government are conducting their own assessment of the case. It is obviously not proper for me to comment further on what it concludes, but it is satisfied with our preliminary conclusions.
Mr. Tom Cox (Tooting) : As the Minister who represents the area containing Wandsworth prison, may I suggest to the Minister that if the exchanges of the past few minutes were conveyed to BBC television's "Yes Minister" they might indeed help to revive the Government's fortunes? But there is a serious point here. [H on. Members :-- "No."] There is a serious point. Prison officers are repeatedly subject to abuses from the Government about their lack of commitment to the job that they do. If the diplomatic bags contained metal objects that got through the system, surely the Minister or his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary should take note of the seriousness of the problem. There have been enough prison escapes under this Government. Surely this should be an opportunity for giving serious consideration to and providing serious answers on this major issue.
Mr. Lennox-Boyd : The allegation about a metal object being contained in one of the bags is new to me.
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Business of the House
3.43 pm
Dr. John Cunningham (Copeland) : Will the Leader of the House tell us the business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. John MacGregor) : The business for next week will be asfollows :
Monday-- 9 December----Proceedings on the Aggravated Vehicle-Taking Bill.
Motion on the Teachers' Pay and Conditions Act 1987 (Continuation) Order.
Tuesday-- 10 December----Estimates day (1st allotted day). Until about seven o'clock there will be a debate on the financing of private residential and nursing home fees, followed by a debate on the future of the coal industry. Details of the estimates concerned and the relevant Select Committee reports will be given in the Official Report.
Motion on the Ministerial and Other Salaries Order.
At Ten o'clock, the House will be asked to agree the civil and defence votes on account and the outstanding winter supplementary estimates.
Wednesday-- 11 December----Until about seven o'clock, motions on the social security benefits uprating and disability benefits affirmative orders and regulations and any related negative regulations. Details will be given in the Official Report.
Afterwards there will be a debate on fisheries on a Government motion.
Thursday-- 12 December----Motion for the Christmas Adjournment. Proceedings on the Consolidated Fund Bill.
Friday-- 13 December----Private Members' motions.
Monday-- 16 December----Progress on remaining stages of the Local Government Finance Bill.
The House will also wish to know that European Standing Committee A will meet at 10.30 am on Wednesday, 11 December, to consider European Community documents Nos. 7816/91 and 8046/91 relating to speed limitation devices.
[Tuesday, 10 December
Relevant Documents
Estimates Day : Class XIV, vote 1, central Government administered social security benefits and other payments, in so far as it relates to the financing of private residential and nursing home fees ; fourth report from the Social Security Committee Session 1990-91 (HC 421) ; first report from the Health Committee Session 1991-92 (HC 28) ; class V, vote 9, privatisation of the coal industry, in so far as it relates to the future of the coal industry ; fifth report from the Energy Committee Session 1990- 91 (HC 208) : "Clean coal technology and the coal market after 1993" ; first special report from the Energy Committee, Session 1991-92 (HC 67) ; Government observations on the fifth report of last Session (to be published on Friday, 6 December at 11 am).
Wednesday 11 December
Social Security Orders and Regulations
1. Social Security Benefits Up-rating (No. 2) Order 1991 2. Social Security (Contributions) (Re-rating) (No. 2) Order 1991 3. Guaranteed Minimum Pensions Increase (No. 2) Order 1991 4. Statutory Sick Pay (Rate of Payment) (No. 2) Order 1991
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5. Social Security (Introduction of Disability Living Allowance) Regulations 19916. Social Security Disability Working Allowance (General) Regulations 1991
7. Social Security (Disability Living Allowance) Regulations 1991 8. Social Security (Adjudication) Amendment (No. 3) Regulations 1991.
European Standing Committee A
Relevant European Community Documents
Speed limiters
Relevant Report on European Legislation Committee
HC 24-iii (1991-92).]
The House will also wish to know that, subject to the progress of business, it will be proposed that the House should rise for the Christmas Adjournment on Friday 20 December until Monday 13 January.
Dr. Cunningham : As someone whose motor car has just been stolen and used in a ram raid, may I give a personal welcome to the Bill which will come before the House next Monday? I am sorry that it has come a little late in my case, but I am sure that there will be a general welcome that the Government are at last taking action in that matter.
When the Home Secretary introduces that legislation next week, will the Leader of the House arrange for him to give the House a guarantee that it is not his intention, as reported in the newspapers, to stop publishing the quarterly crime statistics? Is that not yet another Government attempt to cover up their appalling record of the past 12 years and the explosion of crime which has taken place during their term of office?
Can we have a statement next week from the Government on regional industrial policy, especially on matters to do with assisted area status? May I sadly draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the announcement yesterday of several hundred more job losses in my constituency of Copeland? Is he not aware--and will he not make it clear to his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment--that yet another Government inquiry into industrial decline and the huge increases in unemployment in west Cumbria is not necessary? We know of the job losses : what we want to hear about is some Government action, especially the provision of assisted area status for west Cumbria, and for Copeland and Barrow-in-Furness. Will the Leader of the House arrange next week for the Secretary of State for Education and Science to explain in an oral statement how it has been possible so to order his priorities that he can easily find £26 million of taxpayers' money for prestigious new offices for himself and other Ministers, while throughout the country the Government are failing to provide cash to invest in crumbling schools and in our children's education?
Mr. MacGregor : I sympathise with the hon. Gentleman in the loss of his stolen car, as I have already told him. I am sure that he will agree that there are many other reasons for wishing to introduce the Bill, and he will know that we have moved as fast as possible to frame it and bring it before the House. I believe that it is the will of the
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whole House that the Bill should proceed as quickly as possible so that we can strengthen considerably the penalties involved in what is wrongly known as joyriding.As to the question about crime statistics, we would be happy to debate the Government's record on all law and order matters and to outline the many measures that we have taken to strengthen the police and to improve police pay, as well as other measures dealing with increases in penalties for crime. That is not appropriate for next Monday, but we should be happy to debate those matters on any occasion with the Labour party.
On his second point, the hon. Member will know that there will be an opportunity to debate economic policy this afternoon. We would happily engage in a debate about all the policies that we have carried through to realise the high growth which was achieved throughout most of the 1980s, and which will certainly be achieved through the 1990s.
I cannot promise Government time next week to discuss assisted area status, but the hon. Gentleman will be aware that there will be a number of opportunities next week when individual matters can be raised.
I do not think that it would be appropriate for my right hon. and learned Friend to make a statement on education next week, but we shall be pleased on every occasion possible to talk about the 35 per cent. increase in capital allocation that has gone into the school building programme in the last two years. Our record is very good. Several Hon. Members rose--
Mr. Speaker : Order. The House knows that I am always reluctant to curtail business questions, but today we have heavy pressure on debate, and I shall have to put a 10-minute limit on speeches. I therefore ask for questions to be related to the business for next week. I shall draw business questions to a close at 4.20, in the general interests of the House.
Mr. Patrick Cormack (Staffordshire, South) : Is it my right hon. Friend's intention to arrange a debate on the outcome of the Maastricht meetings next week or before Christmas, or to leave it till after Christmas?
Mr. MacGregor : As I said last week, the Prime Minister will make a statement to the House as soon as possible after the summit has been completed. We must await the outcome of the summit before deciding what further consideration might be given in the House.
Mr. James Wallace (Orkney and Shetland) : Has the Leader of the House noted early-day motion 21 against the Control of Explosives Regulations 1991? [That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Control of Explosives Regulations 1991 (S.I., 1991, No. 1531), dated 5th July 1991, a copy of which was laid before this House on 15th July, in the last Session of Parliament, be annulled.] Has he further noted that it has been signed by 80 hon. Members in all parts of the House--perhaps an unusual number of signatures against a statutory instrument--because of their understandable concern about rights being given to the police to enter houses without warrant, and for that to be possible by way of a negative order?
Will the right hon. Gentleman make time available, preferably in the Chamber but otherwise in Committee, to debate that important matter?
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Mr. MacGregor : I shall look into the matter. From recollection, and from what the hon. Gentleman said, I believe that it is one of the early motions and that the time may have passed.Mr. John Marshall (Hendon, South) : Following the visit of Mr. Le Pen, will my right hon. Friend arrange an early debate on racism so that many of us may take the opportunity to condemn his offensive and hateful doctrines?
Mr. MacGregor : There will be a number of opportunities next week for a whole range of matters to be raised in the House.
Mr. Ray Powell (Ogmore) : Can the right hon. Gentleman make time available next week for a debate on the emotional subject of Sunday trading? He will recall the debates in 1986, when the majority of hon. Members rejected the proposals of the Government to alter the Shops Act 1950 and to introduce new legislation permitting Sunday trading. Is he aware that we must debate the matter urgently, because people in the country are illegally opening shops, and people are able to go into them and buy goods, all of which is illegal and could be the subject of prosecution?
Does the right hon. Gentleman also recall the debates in 1986 when the House rejected the idea of bringing back the rope? If the Government intend to flout the law on Sunday trading, perhaps their next step will be to bring back capital punishment without the permission of the House and without the law of the land being changed. We in Parliament, not people in Europe, make the laws of this country. We need a debate so that everybody in Britain may know where Members of the House stand.
Mr. MacGregor : As the hon. Gentleman knows, prosecution of those matters is for local authorities to consider : it is for them to prosecute if they wish to do so. I well recall the debates in 1986 on the Auld committee report and on the Bill that the Government introduced to try to make sense of the current laws on Sunday trading. He will recall that there were a wide range of views about the matter at that time. That is why the Minister of State, Home Office is continuing to have discussions with all those involved to see if an acceptable way forward can be achieved. I do not think that that would be achieved by a debate next week.
Mr. David Shaw (Dover) : Will my right hon. Friend arrange for an urgent debate next week on the plight of Mirror Group Newspapers pensioners? Will he also ensure that the debate is opened by the Attorney- General, who should deal with the question whether the Official Solicitor can step in, remove the trustees who have shown themselves to be totally useless, and obtain worldwide freezing orders on all the assets and money of the Maxwell family trust companies and Maxwell family companies? Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the debate is closed by the Foreign Secretary or the Chancellor, who can comment on the massive amount of income tax and capital gains tax of which the country has been defrauded by means of the Liechtenstein family trust, which has managed over the years to deal in other people's money free of tax, causing British taxpayers to lose millions of pounds?
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Mr. MacGregor : I do not think that I can find Government time to debate that matter next week. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said, the Serious Fraud Office is now conducting an inquiry into the Mirror Group Newspapers pension fund. IMRO, the investment fund regulator, is also conducting inquiries into Bishopsgate Investment Management Ltd. Those inquiries should be allowed to proceed on that aspect of the matter. As for who should participate, my hon. Friend would not be entirely right to ask that my right hon. Friends should participate in the debate.
Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow) : Are arrangements being made next week for a report back to the House by the hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg), the Minister of State, Foreign Office, who has been to Algeria, Egypt and Tunisia? Is the Leader of the House aware that some of us wish to argue the case for this country acceding to the Libyan request to send British and American judges to Libya?
Mr. MacGregor : No, I do not think that it would be appropriate to debate the matter in Government time next week, but there are opportunities this week for a number of matters to be raised, as the hon. Gentleman knows.
Mr. Bernie Grant (Tottenham) : Has the Leader of the House had time to read a letter that I sent him regarding the treatment by the tabloid press of my appeal for information relating to the murder of PC Keith Blakelock? I appealed on television and elsewhere for anyone with information to come forward, and I offered to accompany them to the police. That has been distorted by the tabloid press, which has totally altered the position, thus creating difficulties in my constituency. An atmosphere has been created in which people will not co-operate with the police, as has happened in the past.
In view of the fact that right hon. and hon. Members have made comments in this House and in the papers about the situation, will the Leader of the House allow me time to make a full personal statement on the circumstances of the case, especially in view of the policy inquiry that has been launched today?
Mr. MacGregor : Personal statements, as the hon. Gentleman knows, are not a matter for me but for you, Mr. Speaker. Some of the statements made by the hon. Gentleman in the past have caused many people much concern.
Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North) : Will the Leader of the House bear in mind the fact that part of his duty is to look after minorities in the House? When will we have a debate about accountability of Northern Ireland Office Ministers to Select Committees of the House? Yesterday in Dublin, the Prime Minister made it clear that he saw no reason why talks could not start immediately on stage 1. That is the conviction of the Unionist parties in this House that talks should start before an election. Why cannot the Leader of the House get a Select Committee on Northern Ireland going so that, before the election, hon. Members will have an opportunity to question what is happening in Northern Ireland?
Mr. MacGregor : There are many opportunities to question what is happening in Northern Ireland--for example, in statements, at Question Time and in many of our debates. As for Select Committees, I have made it
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plain several times that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is willing to consider all those matters at the appropriate time but that we feel that the appropriate way to proceed is to get the talks going again.Mr. John D. Taylor (Strangford) : Yesterday, our Prime Minister met the Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland and agreed that, from now on, he will meet the Dublin Prime Minister twice a year to discuss the affairs of Northern Ireland. As the Prime Minister does not extend the same facility to the Unionist parties of Northern Ireland, whose members live in Northern Ireland, and are elected by and speak for the people of Northern Ireland, will the Leader of the House arrange for at least two debates a year in the House so that all hon. Members have the same rights as are now given to the Republican Prime Minister in Dublin?
Mr. MacGregor : I am well aware that we have more than two debates on Northern Ireland matters every year.
Mr. Speaker : I think that I inadvertently called two Members on the Opposition side, so I shall now balance that.
Mr. Rupert Allason (Torbay) : Bearing in mind the fact that there has been a Department of Trade and Industry inquiry into all aspects of the allegations of serious financial misconduct since March of this year, will my right hon. Friend arrange for his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry to make a statement to the House next week explaining exactly what the Government knew, and when, of the allegations made in March? Will he also arrange a full inquiry into "Mirrorgate", ranging from the allegations of the manipulation of the "Spot the Ball" competition, right through to the looting of £500 million from the Mirror Group Newspapers pension fund?
Mr. MacGregor : My right hon. Friend's Department is in close consultation with the Serious Fraud Office, which is now widening its investigation to include the Mirror Group Newspapers pension fund. I understand that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has made it clear that he will not hesitate to take immediate action if any issues emerge that justify an investigation by his Department, as long as doing so will not slow down the work of the SFO.
Sir Ian Lloyd (Havant) : My right hon. Friend will know that the Advisory Committee on Science and Technology last week published its first triennial report raising a number of fundamental and far-reaching issues affecting this country's prosperity and future well-being into the next century. As there obviously will not be time to discuss the report next week, will my right hon. Friend ensure that he places high in his list of priorities a proper debate on those important subjects?
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