House of Commons Hansard Debates for 15 Jan 1992

Mr. Brandon-Bravo : That was an inadequate explanation, if I may say so. The constraints of the House require us to be careful with our language, but I believe that the Liberal Democrats owe us all an apology.

Mr. Haynes : Let me agree with everything that the hon. Gentleman has said, except for one thing. He said that he would have liked that position on the Committee. He could not have had it because it belonged to the Opposition, not the Government's supporters.

Mr. Brandon-Bravo : I agree and apologise. The hon. Gentleman will probably not agree with anything else that I say, but at least we have agreed on something--perhaps for the first time.

Mr. Hardy : Get on with it ; this is a serious debate.

Mr. Brandon-Bravo : I agree that it is a serious debate--a very serious debate.

It is not often that the Labour party votes against a Bill that provides finance for British Coal, yet, on this occasion, they have opposed the Bill, solely for the sake of

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opposition, on Second Reading and throughout. The peg on which they hang their argument is safety and the repeal of the Coal Mines Regulation Act 1908.

Mr. Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) : Safety is important.

Mr. Brandon-Bravo : Of course safety is important. No Conservative Member would vote for the Bill if he thought for a moment that he would be putting the safety of anyone underground at risk by doing so. I should certainly not support the Bill if I thought that that was a possibility.

Mr. Jimmy Hood (Clydesdale) : Let us forget our political differences for a moment. Will the hon. Gentleman take it from me, as a miner of 23 years' service, that, by removing the protection afforded by the 1908 Act, the Bill will cause miners to die and to be crippled or seriously injured? That is my genuine view, based on my 23 years' experience as a miner.

Mr. Brandon-Bravo : I cannot challenge the experience of the hon. Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood), and I accept that he holds that opinion honourably and sincerely. I have to tell him, however, that he is wrong. I do not believe that to be the case in the modern mining context--but perhaps the hon. Gentleman wants to follow the absurd example of the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson), who treated us to an account of the conduct of a coal baron of God knows how many generations ago in dealing with six-year-old children, highlighting the general absurdity of the case advanced from the Labour Front Bench. I am prepared to take criticism from the hon. Member for Clydesdale because he is an ex- miner, but the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras gets more and more absurd. On Second Reading, I was accused by the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) of voting for the return of Victorian conditions in the mines. I utterly reject that accusation ; nothing could be more absurd.

The outburst that we had today from the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Haynes) was fairly characteristic. We had exactly the same thing in Nottingham a few weeks ago when we held a conference for hon. Members on both sides of the House who are interested in the future of British Coal. In the interests of publicity, and for media purposes alone, Labour Members told us how dreadful everything would be. Much the same images were painted as were painted by the hon. Member for Ashfield today of what would happen if the Bill were passed and the 1908 Act repealed.

I do not think that I shall be contradicted if I say that, when it comes to safety, British Coal's mining engineers probably rank among the best in the world--they may even be better than those in the rest of the world--and that British Coal operates one of the safest deep-mine industries in the world. I do not believe that British Coal would use a technology unless an improvement in operational safety was associated with it.

I am not an expert, but I simply do not believe that British Coal is lying when it says that it is confident that the modern roof-bolting system now being used to varying degrees in more than half the corporation's mines is raising operational standards as well as production efficiency. That is British Coal's view, and I am not in a position to challenge it. I have no evidence on the basis of which to challenge it--only the emotional outbursts of Labour

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Members. Contrary to the impression given to the House on Second Reading, the Health and Safety Executive says that its confidence in the system has increased as experience of the system has grown.

Mr. Lofthouse : Is the hon. Gentleman aware that British Coal is not operating the safety practice for protecting main roadways? That is not my view ; it is the view given by the chief inspector of mines to the Select Committee on Energy. Will the hon. Gentleman take his word as authoritative?

Mr. Brandon-Bravo : Of course I accept that the chief inspector is an authority. Perhaps I have misunderstood the hon. Gentleman's point. Is he suggesting that the inspectorate of mines is allowing a practice to continue that it has the power to stop? That is an absurd suggestion. The inspectorate would be in default of its legal duty if it were doing that. I cannot believe that that is the point that the hon. Gentleman sought to make.

On Second Reading, I left the Chamber briefly and while I was away a Labour Member--perhaps he is present and will confirm that it was him--referred to the terrible tragedy at Allerton Bywater.

Mr. Lofthouse : It was me.

Mr. Brandon-Bravo : If it was the hon. Gentleman, I shall happily give way if he wants to intervene to say that I have his story wrong. He sought to place responsibility for that terrible tragedy to a man and his family on the use of rock bolts. I have made inquiries, and I understand that the accident did not result from the use of a rock bolt to secure the roof at the mine but rather from the misuse of that rock bolt. Let me tell the House exactly what I understand happened. The rock bolt was used as an anchor point for a pull lift--in clear contravention of operational rules. A fall occurred, and a miner died. That is a tragedy that we all understand. If what has been said is true, the hon. Member who used this case as an example of reasons for not using rock bolts was being less than fair to the House.

Mr. Lofthouse : This is the first time I have been accused of being less than fair to the House. I was quoting the coroner's report, which associated the death with the roof bolt. If the hon. Gentleman had any experience of mining, he would know that arch girders provide the greatest safety.

Mr. Brandon-Bravo : I do not think I have implied that the new system was not in use when that accident occurred. The point that I am making is that it was not used properly. The people concerned were in breach of the operational rules. The hon. Gentleman seems to be implying that, if the older system were used, there would never be any accidents. He knows that in the last couple of months incorrect practices resulted in the loss of life even though the old system was in use. Accidents are tragic, but if people do not abide by the rules there will be accidents, whatever system is in use. That must be understood.

I want to take a few minutes to read from an article which should be enlightening even to people who are not interested in coal. It was written by a David Goodhart and appeared in the Financial Times on Friday 3 January. Throughout these debates we have heard only about pit closures. Hon. Members have given the impression that this industry has no future. The Financial Times article is

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very dear to the hearts of my colleagues in Nottinghamshire and the surrounding counties. It refers to Asfordby, which represents the future of British Coal and that is what this Bill is concerned with.

Mr. Ashton : A one-pit future.

Mr. Brandon-Bravo : It is not a one-pit future. With 20 : 20 vision, hindsight is very easy, but if only some of the things that are now happening at Asfordby had been accepted more readily a few years ago, we might well have been having a very different debate today.

Mr. Hood : The hon. Gentleman says that, with hindsight, things are easy. He should bear in mind the fact that all mining legislation has been the result of hindsight. Over the years, mining accidents have given rise to legislation. The Government are now tampering with legislation that was put in place for the protection of miners.

Mr. Brandon-Bravo : I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is making a point, but I cannot follow it.

Mr. Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) : Let the hon. Gentleman read the Official Report tomorrow.

Mr. Brandon-Bravo : I am sure that the hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Barron) will read the Official Report tomorrow. I believe that, already, expenditure at Asfordby has amounted to about £300 million. That facility will not come into operation until next year, but it already has a full complement of men--about 400. The article to which I have referred points out that, because of the new technology, Asfordby, unlike any other pit, seems almost empty of people. The future of British coal lies in a high-tech industry employing small numbers of people and producing coal at a competitive price.

Mr. Allen McKay (Barnsley, West and Penistone) : On the question of pricing, the hon. Gentleman is correct. But that is the problem. I should like to inform him of an exercise that is being carried out by Doug Bulmer, the president of the British Association of Colliery Management. The chairman of British Coal was asked whether every colliery would remain open if it were to produce at 130p per gigajoule. The chairman said that on that matter he could not give Mr. Bulmer an assurance.

The other question, which was put to every colliery manager in Great Britain, related to forward planning, forecasts, costs and delivery. The managers were asked what would be the level of production in the year 2000. Apparently, in the year 2000 only five collieries would be able to produce at a cost of 130p per gigajoule. Let the hon Gentleman look at the Rothschild and BACUM figures--14 and five.

Mr. Brandon-Bravo : The hon. Gentleman will have to come to terms with the fact that there is an energy market to be supplied. The amount of coal that is used is very much a question that is in the hands of British Coal as it negotiates with the current generating authorities. Some people ask how much coal will be dug or how many pits will be open by the year 2000. That is like asking how long is a piece of string. We do not know how big a slice of the cake British Coal will be able to secure. Nobody can say that by the year 2000 there will be five pits, 14 pits--or any number of pits. However, I firmly believe in the ability of

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British Coal to win a big slice of the energy cake. That--and not some Government decision--is what will determine how many pits stay open.

Mr. Allen McKay : The electricity industry says that it will buy its coal from abroad unless British Coal can produce at 130p per gigajoule. A colliery manager who is actually planning and investing was asked how many pits would be producing at 130p per gigajoule. The answer was five.

Mr. Brandon-Bravo indicated dissent.

Mr. McKay : The hon. Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Brandon- Bravo) need not shake his head. The people to whom I am referring actually work the collieries.

Mr. Brandon-Bravo : The hon. Gentleman is trying to guess what the market price will be in X years' time and what proportion of the market will be accounted for by coal. It is simply impossible to make those judgments. It seems that I have much more faith in the future of coal than does the hon. Gentleman.

Let us not constantly try to talk down the coal industry. Asfordby expects to produce not much less than 2 million tonnes of coal a year with only 400 men. That is an incredible target. If it is achieved, the production costs will be not much more than half the current figure, and the undertaking will be able to compete with most of our opencast coal facilities. It seems an almost impossible target, but the management people believe that they can achieve it. People should stop indulging in doom and gloom and, instead, looks to the future. I am very glad that in my area miners belong to the Union of Democratic Mineworkers under Roy Lynk. Miners in Nottinghamshire and in the surrounding area want to work towards the future. But the six-day week, the 7.5 hour shift and the other things that make Asforby possible would be impossible if things were left to the National Union of Mineworkers. If it was up to the NUM, we would still be working under arrangements made years ago.

There is nothing in the Bill for the industry to fear. It simply puts the 1908 Act on hold until it is replaced. Nothing in the Bill is detrimental to the industry or to the safety of the men whom we send underground. Therefore, I have no hesitation in supporting the Bill.

6.20 pm

Mr. Peter Archer (Warley, West) : The House may have noticed that so far I have not participated in our debates on this Bill. It is more than 40 years since I worked in a coal mine and, unlike the Minister, I was prepared to listen to the expertise of my hon. Friends who have experience of the industry. I intervene to raise only one matter about which I confess that I share the puzzlement of my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie).

The Coal Mines Regulation Act 1908 related to the hours of work in the coal mining industry. We have heard some discussion about whether it was concerned with health and safety matters. You know, Mr. Deputy Speaker-- none better--and anyone who has looked at the research into the causes of accidents will also know that

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probably the greatest cause of accidents is fatigue, but that is a side issue in this debate. That Act related to hours of work, and I am prepared to settle for that.

Clause 2 purports to repeal an Act that is concerned with hours of work. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian, I have wondered why the Secretary of State for Energy is introducing a Bill which relates to hours of work, because that is a matter for his right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Employment. The Secretary of State for Energy is concerned with the structure of the coal mining industry, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) has just referred. Clause 1 is certainly within the bailiwick of the Secretary of State for Energy, and I am prepared to leave aside its merits for the moment. But, turning again to clause 2, why is the Secretary of State for Employment getting his right hon. Friend at the Department of Energy to deal with a matter that is within his province?

That issue caused me to ask myself how the Secretary of State for Employment would have set about achieving the proposal if it had been his, as we would have expected. I can think of two possibilities. The first is that section 15 of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 empowers the Secretary of State--in practice, the Secretary of State for Employment--by regulation to repeal or modify any of the existing statutory provisions. Under section 53, "the existing statutory provisions" means those listed in schedule 1, which includes the Mines and Quarries Act 1954. It is true that schedule 1 does not specifically include the 1908 Act, but section 187 of the 1954 Act provides that the provisions of the 1908 Act should have effect as if they were included in the 1954 Act.

I apologise for inflicting that complicated history on the House, but, as you will know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the 1908 Act contains only one enforcement provision--a fine of up to £2--so that, without the 1954 Act, the provisions are an empty shell. That is why Parliament decided in 1954 that the provisions of the 1908 Act should be taken on board the 1954 Act because, without that, it was virtually unenforceable.

I return to my original question, which I share with my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian. Since the Secretary of State for Employment has the power under the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 effectively to repeal the 1908 Act, since he is the Minister responsible for such matters and since Parliament clearly contemplated that he would follow that procedure, why is the repeal being effected by a Bill about the financing of the coal industry which has been introduced by the Secretary of State for Energy? I know that it is not within your power to confirm what I am saying, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but you and I can recollect the history of this matter.

Mr. Ashby : Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?

Mr. Archer : Yes, but I was about to answer my question.

Mr. Ashby : Perhaps I can answer the question for the right hon. and learned Gentleman. Is it not the case that the 1908 Act is a specific Act that thus requires a specific repeal, whereas the other Act is more concerned with general hours? We are talking about a specific Act that requires repealing if the directive is ever to come into effect. Although I accept that the right hon. and learned

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Gentleman is right about the effects of worker exhaustion, does he not agree that the Germans and the French, who have excellent practices and the same sort of problems and safety record underground as we have, are also aware that the number of hours worked must be limited because of worker exhaustion and, given that the French and the Germans will be just as aware of those facts, will not the provisions be incorporated in the directive?

Mr. Archer : That is rather a lot of questions and, although I am trying to be brief, I shall try to answer two of them. The first is the question whether, if the Secretary of State for Employment had sought to repeal the 1908 Act, he would have needed to use a Bill. For the reasons that I have just given, I believe that he could have achieved his purpose by using the powers conferred on him under the 1974 Act. However, for the purpose of this argument, I am prepared to assume that he could introduce a Bill, but why was that Bill not introduced by the Secretary of State for Energy? [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Leicestershire, North -West (Mr. Ashby) will permit me to continue, I shall come to his second point about Europe in a moment.

The answer that occurred to me is that, if the Secretary of State for Employment had been proposing to achieve that, as I am sure that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, will remember better than anybody, section 1(2) of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 stated that those powers were conferred

"with a view to enabling the enactment to be progressively replaced by a system of regulations designed to maintain or improve the standards of health, safety and welfare established by or under those enactments."

It is within my personal recollection that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, made that point perfectly clear in our debates on that legislation. Those are the reasons that that power was given. If the Secretary of State failed to meet that condition, I imagine that the courts would hold that he could not exercise the power. So he could not use the obvious power that was conferred under the 1974 Act. So, by different paths, the hon. Member for Leicestershire, North-West and I have arrived at the same conclusion.

The other possibility is that the Secretary of State might well have introduced a Bill, but everybody would then have asked, "Why did you not use the power under the 1974 Act ?" The hon. Gentleman might be ready with an explanation, but I assume that the explanation that would have jumped most quickly to the minds of those concerned is, "Because, in this case, it was not being replaced by any provision that even maintains, much less enhances, the existing standards." In fact, the Secretary of State gave the game away on Second Reading when he said that the provisions of the 1908 Act were too inflexible in modern conditions. That can only mean that they wanted to treat employees in a way that would not have been permissible under the 1908 Act.

I come now to the second question posed by the hon. Member for Leicestershire, North-West. The Secretary of State told the House on Second Reading that it was all right because the 1908 Act was to be replaced by the provisions of the proposed EC directive on the organisation of working time.

There are two comments to be made on that. First, the directive never says that it should replace existing statutory standards. It does not require existing legislation to be repealed. It provides for minimum standards, and it says that there shall be at least some legislation to bring

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standards up to that minimum if they are not already there. It is clear from the directive that the EC was not contemplating particularly work in coal mines ; it was discussing working hours across the board. There was nothing in the directive specific to coal mining and the problems of fatigue and all the other difficulties associated with it.

Secondly, it is clear that the directive does not provide standards equivalent to those in the 1908 Act. On the hours of work, except for night workers, it simply proposes that a worker should have at least 11 consecutive hours of rest in any period of 24 hours, so a person can work 13 hours and still comply with the directive.

If the Secretary of State for Employment or even the Secretary of State for Energy wished to alter the working arrangements in coal mines, surely the proper course was to consult those most concerned to secure agreement about hours of work which, among other things, would have ensured that safety was not endangered by fatigue. Everyone might have agreed that it was better to have a different provision from that in the 1908 Act and the Secretary of State could have brought forward a Bill on agreed terms.

But to repeal the provisions unilaterally and to announce blandly that they are being replaced by a directive--if and when the directive is concluded-- providing for lower standards is cheating. As we have been reminded, the Secretary of State for Employment does not believe in the directive. He is one of the ancient Britons on the Government Benches who fear that the Europeans are soft on employment conditions and that they are encouraging the natives to get above themselves. So he could not come to the House himself and say, "It is all right to repeal the 1908 Act, since the EC Commission will look after us." But I am surprised that the Secretary of State for Energy agreed to do his dirty work for him. The Secretary of State for Energy has dirty work enough of his own. I hope that the House will reject the Third Reading.

6.32 pm

Mr. Andy Stewart (Sherwood) : I support and welcome the Third Reading of this important Bill. It guarantees the doubling of restructuring grants to British Coal from £1,500 million to £3,000 million in the period up to 1996. The effect will be to enable British Coal to continue the vital restructuring of the industry and allow, where necessary, generous redundancy terms. It shows a continuing commitment by the Government, who have invested £2 million every working day for 12 years in the coal industry--more than all the other Governments since 1945 put together.

It also ensures that British Coal is on a solid financial footing by writing off the debts and burdens of its past in a massive £5 billion capital restructuring. Largely as a result of the Government's commitments, the coal industry has undergone a more dramatic and remarkable transformation in the past decade than perhaps any other industry, and without a single compulsory redundancy. Taking these measures together, British Coal's financial results for 1990-91 showed the first bottom-line profit for 13 years.

During the Christmas recess, on six successive days, I visited collieries in my constituency and saw the practical results of the investments being operated by management and miners who have increased productivity by 110 per

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cent. and reduced prices to power generating companies by 40 per cent. in real terms. While I was there, nobody questioned the need for the improvements because they are the road towards guaranteeing a lasting future with British Coal. Nevertheless, while the miners have been meeting every challenge placed before them, their product market has been shrinking because of uncompetitive alternatives, particularly gas, which by 1994 will have replaced 30 million tonnes of coal.

I described the crazy economics of that on Second Reading. I trust as a result that the electricity regulator, Stephen Littlejohn, is now investigating the absurd situation and the possible removal of 12 GW of viable coal-fired stations as a result of the generators' dash for gas.

The miners of Sherwood are angry and resentful at what has happened, particularly since their efforts are helping to finance the new gas- generating stations. One miner summed up the feelings of his colleagues when he said, "We have been kicked in the teeth so many times by politicians of all parties that our dental bills are almost the same as the fossil fuel levy."

Mr. Brandon-Bravo : My hon. Friend is not normally controversial. When he said that both parties had kicked the miners in the teeth, he may have been trying to calm things. I can remember only one incident when the Labour party really kicked the miners in the teeth. That was when they all went home early one Thursday night and the Killingholme Generating Stations (Ancillary Powers) Bill 1991 got its Second Reading. Was my hon. Friend serious in his remarks? Perhaps he would outline other occasions when that lot kicked the miners in the teeth.

Mr. Stewart : My hon. Friend is right. The miners in

Nottinghamshire remember the scandal of the Labour party going home early, with the result that, at 8.10 pm, only 49 Labour Members voted against the Bill. Further, the Nottinghamshire miners noticed that it was a Labour- controlled Humberside county council which passed the planning consent for the new gas-fired stations in Humberside to replace the use of 2.5 million tonnes of coal.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker) : Order. We should get back to the Third Reading of the Bill.

Mr. Stewart : There is more. Mr. Deputy Speaker, would you not like to hear what I meant when I said that all parties had kicked the miners in the teeth?

Mr. Allen McKay : Let us nail the facts. I was the pairing Whip on the Killingholme Generating Stations (Ancillary Powers) Bill. It was Conservative Members who wanted to pair to get away. Had I refused the pairing arrangement, there would have been a full contingent in the House. It made no difference to the numbers.

Mr. Stewart : Mr. Deputy Speaker, you have been here a long time and you will know that a private Bill is not whipped business. The frustration of both management and men which I found during my visits to the Sherwood collieries was due to uncertainty about the British Coal market share after April 1993. The new contracts will be around 55 million tonnes and must be settled soon. Sherwood's miners will

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meet head on the challenge for maximum tonnage. Already plans are laid in every pit to continue reducing unit costs through investment and productivity, and by 1993 will match the current so-called world price for coal.

In December, the Nottinghamshire miners recorded a best-ever production of 6.25 tonnes per man shift, which demonstrates beyond doubt that they can deliver the goods to our generators at prices beneficial to the generators and to domestic and industrial customers. Therefore, the generators do not need to import coal and face the uncertainty of price and the danger of possible international coal cartels.

Britain has 200 years of workable coal reserves and miners prepared to deliver it at given prices. That is a guaranteed partnership which no coal supplier from abroad can provide. If we want to back a sure winner, that team is a certainty.

Mr. Ashton : Is it not a fact that the hon. Gentleman has advised the Union of Democratic Mineworkers to buy into the pits when they are privatised after the next election if, God forbid, the Tories get in? He has advised them to take part and buy in as part of the privatisation measure. What will he say to the UDM if they do so, say at the end of this year, but in 1993, after they have spent their money, the contracts are awarded to coal at a much lower price from other countries? They will lose their cash and see their pits shut as a result of coal imports when he advised them to speculate before the orders were made.

Mr. Stewart : That intervention surprises me. The hon. Gentleman knows that the UDM has its own financial advisers who are paid to give it such advice. I have merely said to the UDM miners that if they wish to have a stake in their industry, good luck to them. It is their future. The future of the coal industry is what it is all about.

Clause 2 repeals the Coal Mines Regulation Act 1908. Its repeal will be suspended until the Act is superseded by and EC directive. The measure has brought allegations that safety in our coalfields will be jeopardised. Let me reassure the doubting Thomases that nothing is further from the truth. In Nottinghamshire, safe working practices are paramount and take precedence over all else. That was widely in evidence during my visits. From the time when the miners arrive in the car park, they are subjected to visual and verbal reminders to make each day a safe day. That has resulted in a welcome reduction in injuries year on year. That reduction will continue because no one is resting on his laurels. Coal may be king, but safety is life. I commend the Bill to the House.

6.42 pm

Mr. Jimmy Hood (Clydesdale) : I am tempted to be drawn by one or two distractions in the speech of the hon. Member for Sherwood (Mr. Stewart). I may deal with them later. I do not intend to take too long. I apologise for not being present at the beginning of the debate. I had some bad news. Someone tried to break into my flat so I had to run over and speak to the police. I apologise for being late as a result.

My hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson), the present shadow Secretary of State for Energy who will be Secretary of State for Energy in not too long, said that the Rothschild report was at the root of the debate tonight. I remind the House, if it needs reminding, that the Rothschild report talked about 13 or

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14 pits. It is my strongly held view that the target is a maximum, not a minimum. Indeed, we are seeing evidence of that in the internal strife at British Coal.

I have heard brief references to Mr. Malcolm Edwards, whose contract is not to be renewed. I have to tell Mr. Edwards that I will be surprised if he is surprised at that news. I knew when the new chairman of British Coal came to power and when his contract was renewed last year for only another 12 months, that that would be his last 12 months. If he did not know that, many of us suspected it and have been proved right.

Mr. Malcolm Edwards is not a supporter of the Labour party. I do not know whether it is true, but I am informed that he is a card-carrying member of the Conservative party. I am reliably assured that he fell foul of his present bosses because he was confused about where his loyalties lay. Were his loyalties with his political party--bearing in mind the wonderful briefs which Conservative Back-Bench members have received from that source --or with British Coal? British Coal is fighting in the middle. The new chairman was brought in for a specific purpose.

I remind the House that when the new chairman came to power, he replaced a chairman whose salary was £98,000. He immediately went on to a salary of £220,000. On 23 February the Prime Minister was asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie) whether he would like to comment on the more than doubling of the chairman's salary. The Prime Minister replied that the new chairman must be well worth that money if that was what he was being paid. That was strange because it was probably the Prime Minister who agreed that his salary should be doubled.

The new chairman is a financier, not a miner. I have met him on several occasions. He is a cordial and pleasant man, but he is a financier. He has come in to do a job--to prepare the coal industry for privatisation. He has told the Government that the industry cannot be privatised in its present form. He has said that private capital will not invest in the industry unless it is considerably contracted.

I remember at my first meeting with the chairman challenging him to defend the statement that he would run the industry down to 30 pits. He knocked the ball back over the net and did not answer the question directly. The estimate of 30 pits was a mistake. The reporter who heard the rumour must have thought that the chairman said 30 when he probably said 13. That is the position and that is what the Bill is all about.

I shall speak for a few minutes more in the hope that the hon. Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Brandon-Bravo) comes back into the Chamber. Some of his comments tonight convinced me, if I needed convincing, that he does not know a thing about the coal industry. I do not know whether it is common knowledge, but it is knowledge that I have acquired in the past few days, that Mr. Edwards, who as I said is not a supporter of the Labour party, is a long-serving member of the board of British Coal and has supported the running down of the industry over a considerable period. He has probably been on the board long enough to see 200,000 mining jobs lost.

Now that Mr. Edward's own job is going, he is not acting as responsibly as he said miners should. He criticised miners for opposing any threat to their jobs. I am told that he is suing British Coal. I can remember a meeting with the Coal Board at which the National Union of Mineworkers was criticised. I was chairman of a miners

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welfare and social club. British Coal spent more than a quarter of a million pounds on removing me as the chairman of the trustees. That was not an act taken to improve the productivity of the coal industry. It was a political decision to get rid of a chap who was a member of the union, whom the board did not want involved in the Nottinghamshire coalfield.

We hear all these noises from Nottinghamshire about how everyone is working together wonderfully. I am in Nottinghamshire regularly. I was there only last weekend. As I always did during the 20-odd years that I lived there I enjoyed myself socially with the miners. I have to tell the House that the miners I know in Nottinghamshire--they work at all the pits in the constituency of the hon. Member for Sherwood--do not share his view that they have been treated wonderfully.

At the beginning of his speech, the hon. Member for Sherwood praised the Government and said what a wonderful job they were doing and that miners should be thankful that they were losing their jobs. They should be thankful that they were getting a little blood money for redundancy. If one applies that theory to the position that some hon. Members will be in after the general election, I do not think that when the hon. Member for Sherwood loses his seat--after all, he will get £30,000 lump sum--he will be sending a wee thank-you note to the Labour candidate who just removed him. Let us get rid of the idea that what is happening in the industry is good for miners. It will do no favours for the miners, for the industry, for our economy or for our country. The British coal industry has a proud record of supporting our economy. It has been run down disastrously by a Government with an economic policy which only they can understand. Last Friday, I attended the birthday party of one of my constituents, Mrs. Mary Forgie. You may ask, Mr. Deputy Speaker, what that has to do with the Bill. It has this to do with it. Mary Forgie was 100 last Friday and in her early life she was a miner. As a young girl she worked in the pits. She had nine children, and her five sons all worked in the mines. She was born in the reign of Queen Victoria, and has lived through the reigns of four kings and through 40 years of the reign of the present monarch, Queen Elizabeth. She has seen quite a lot. She saw the Victorian days that the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) told us were so good for us. She has seen the industrial revolution and wars, and she saw the coal industry when it employed women and children to work seven days a week, 12 and 14 hours a day.

Tragically, at her time in life she has to witness a reversal in the industry, as the Government try to take it and the people employed in it back to those dark Victorian days.

It is nonsense for anyone, whether a solicitor from Leicester or from wherever, to stand in the House and say that, by taking away the protection for miners' working hours, we will be doing them good. I shall repeat what I said in an intervention on the hon. Member for Nottingham, South--by taking away protection the Bill will kill miners, it will disable and cripple them.

As one of my hon. Friends said, each miner depends on his workmate for his own safety. It is important for each miner to be alert to what is happening in the working environment. I shall give two examples from my own experience. I was an engineer in a pit and was working overtime on the night shift. I had come out early at 9 o'clock at night and at 7 o'clock the following morning I

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