House of Commons Hansard Debates for 16 Jan 1992

Mr. MacGregor : I should not wish to comment on the hon. Gentleman's allegations, but, on his general point, it would not be appropriate to deal with the issue by publishing the Register of Members' Secretaries and Research Assistants. The right way to proceed may be to consider the matter when the House debates--as I hope we shall in due course, when we can find time--the Select Committee on Members' Interests report on parliamentary lobbying, which has now been published.

Mr. Andrew Mitchell (Gedling) : Is my right hon. Friend certain that he has allocated sufficient time for next Wednesday's debate on the Chancellor's autumn statement to allow the House fully to ventilate the Opposition's extraordinary shambles on taxation? I ask that in the light of the interview given on the "World at One" today by the shadow Chancellor to Mr. James Naughtie, in which the right hon. and learned Gentleman was fully and effectively "kebabbed"--I believe that that is the word. Will my right hon. Friend tell the House whether he has ever known an Opposition in such a state of panic and disorder over such an important issue so soon before a general election?

Mr. MacGregor : We have been saying for a long time that there is a huge gulf between the spending promises that the Labour party has lavished on just about every interest group and its tax commitments. It now appears that the Labour party is reneging on some of those tax

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commitments, so my hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the issue. I am sure that the subject will feature in next week's debate. I cannot promise him any extended time next week, or another day next week, but we shall return to the matter again--by which time, no doubt, the Labour party's position will have changed yet again.

Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington) : The attacks of the Leader of the House on my party are boring the public to tears. If he does not believe me, he should trawl public opinion. People are getting switched off by all this nonsense.

May I ask the Leader of the House a question and receive a straight answer, not an attack on the Labour party? May we have a debate on business services and, in particular, export credit guarantee premiums? Is he aware that companies throughout Britain, and indeed several in my constituency, say that they are losing business and large contracts abroad because they cannot afford the premiums? Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the matter? Can it be debated in Parliament?

Mr. MacGregor : The hon. Gentleman is wrong on the first point. I get a different reaction as I go round the country : I find that there is a great deal of interest. The Labour party would not apparently hint that it will change its position on national insurance contributions unless it was not greatly worried about the reaction that the public are already showing. The hon. Gentleman is wholly wrong about that. [Interruption.] I am not surprised that the hon. Gentleman is so sensitive on the matter. We are finding such reactions all the time.

The hon. Gentleman's point about export credit insurance could be raised in next Wednesday's debate because it is an economic matter and the debate is on the economy and the autumn statement.

Mr. Kenneth Hind (Lancashire, West) : Will my right hon. Friend find time, possibly next week, for a debate on unemployment in the north of England? We constantly hear in the House attacks on the Government's employment policy. My right hon. Friend will have noticed that in today's figures unemployment levels in the north-west--in Merseyside, Lancashire and Cheshire--are well over 20 per cent. lower than when the Government were last elected. Perhaps that is one point that should be pushed home hard to the electorate in the north of England.

Mr. MacGregor : My hon. Friend makes a good point. I think that it would be in order for him to make it in the debate next Wednesday, if he catches your eye, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. James Maxton (Glasgow, Cathcart) : May I raise a specific point about the debate on the Revenue Support Grant (Scotland) Order next Wednesday? Is the Leader of the House aware that that order is not listed today among the Remaining Orders of the Day and Notices of Motions? Is he aware that I have been informed that the order will not be laid until tomorrow and that it is not available at present in the Vote Office? That means that Scottish Members can obtain the order at the earliest tomorrow. They cannot get back in time to discuss it with their local authorities tomorrow afternoon. There is to be an important debate which relates to Scotland in the House on Monday evening. That leaves about one hour between 9 am and 10 am on Monday

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morning for Scottish Members to discuss the Revenue Support Grant (Scotland) Order with their local authority officials and representatives. That is a complete negation of democracy. I ask the Leader of the House even at this stage to withdraw the debate on the order next week and to put it on in the following week when we have had time to discuss it.

Mr. MacGregor : There is a general desire that we should debate the Revenue Support Grant (Scotland) Order. I hope that the House will pass it so that local authorities may know exactly where they stand and are in a position to move forward. I am under the impression that that is generally agreed. I shall look into the point that the hon. Gentleman raises immediately after business questions.

Mr. Jeff Rooker (Birmingham, Perry Barr) : In view of the belated but welcome interest in the House in occupational pensions, may I draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention to early-day motion 131? [That this House regrets that the Occupational Pensions Board has approved the request of Lucas Industries plc to remove £90 million from the employees' pension fund for company use causing a further payment from the fund to the Inland Revenue of £60 million so depleting the pension fund by £150 million ; notes that the 35,000 Lucas pensioners do not receive the maximum pensions allowed by the Inland Revenue ; is mindful that the company has made no payments into the pension fund for six years ; and believes a first call on any surplus in the pension fund should be to existing pensioners up to the maximum allowed.]

It deals with the raiding by Lucas Industries of £90 million from the funds of 35,000 pensioners when it had not paid a penny into the pension fund for six years. British Rail pensioners are unable to be represented as pensioners on the board of trustees of the pension fund.

May we have a debate on early-day motion 131 and the activities of the Occupational Pensions Board, which must rate as one of the least effective guardians of the public interest that the House has ever set up? A debate is long overdue. Millions of occupational pensioners in Britain are worried sick about the future and the stability of their pensions because they have read about disasters and of pension funds being raided. I might add that those pension funds were raided apparently with the official sanction of the Occupational Pensions Board. We need to have the matter opened up on a much wider front rather than merely having fishing expeditions on one incident.

Mr. MacGregor : I cannot promise a debate on the matter next week, but I am told that the Occupational Pensions Board was asked by Lucas to approve a modification of its scheme rules so that the scheme could benefit from a reduced tax liability. As well as transferring funds to the company, the modification also provides a significant package of benefit improvements, totalling £225 million, for scheme members. That is what I am informed as a result of seeing the early-day motion.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS FOR MONDAY 3 FEBRUARY Members successful in the ballot were :

Sir Michael Neubert

Mr. Jacques Arnold

Dame Jill Knight

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Orders of the Day

Competition and Service (Utilities) Bill

As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.

New Clause 12

Preliminary investigation of disputes by Gas Consumers' Council

. The following section shall be inserted in the Gas Act 1986, after section 32--

"Preliminary investigation by Council of certain disputes. 32A.--(1) This section applies where--

(a) representations are made to the Council by or on behalf of a person who appears to the Council to have an interest in the matter to which the representations relate ; and

(b) that matter appears to the Council to constitute a dispute of a kind which may be referred to the Director under section 14A above or 33A below, or under regulations made under section 15A above. (2) It shall be the duty of the Council--

(a) to inform the person by or on whose behalf the representations are made that he may have the right to refer his dispute to the Director ; and

(b) to make such investigations with respect to the matter to which the representations relate as may be specified in a direction given by the Director.

(3) Any such direction may be given so as to apply generally or to a specified class of matter or particular matter and may, in particular, specify in relation to any investigation which the Council is required to make under this section--

(a) the practice and procedure which it is to follow in conducting its investigation ; and

(b) the information which it is to give to the Director with respect to the matter investigated.".'.-- [Mr. Redwood.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

4.20 pm

The Minister for Corporate Affairs (Mr. John Redwood) : I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Mr. Speaker : With this it will be convenient to discuss the following :

New clause 24--the Gas Consumers' Council --

In section 2 of the Gas Act 1986 (the Gas Consumers' Council), the following subsection shall be inserted after subsection (3) "(3A) In appointing members for the Council, the Secretary of State shall have regard to the desirability of appointing persons who have experience in or knowledge of activities connected with the supply of gas through pipes.".'.

New clause 25-- Gas Act 1986 (Investigations by Director) -- --(1) Section 31 of the Gas Act (duty of Director to investigate certain matters) shall be amended as follows.

(2) For paragraph (b) in subsection (1), there shall be substituted

"is referred to him by the Council under subsection (6G) of section 32 below."

(3) Subsection (2) shall cease to have effect :'.

New clause 26-- Gas Act 1986 (Investigation by Council)--

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(1) Section 32 of the Gas Act (duty of Council to investigate certain matters) shall be amended as follows.

(2) For paragraph (a) in subsection (2), there shall be substituted--

"(a) any matter in respect of which any functions of the Director under this Part are or may be exercisable ; and "

(3) For paragraph (b) in subsection (2), there shall be substituted--

"(b) any matter which relates to the supply of gas through pipes and in respect of which any functions of the Director General of Fair Trading under the Fair Trading Act 1973 or the Competition Act 1980 are or may be exercisable."

(4) In subsection (3), for "paragraph (a) of subsection (2) above" there shall be substituted "subsection (2) of section 33 below". (5) The followng subsections shall be inserted after subsection (6)--

"(6A) Where under an investigation under subsection (1) above any matter appears to the Council to be an enforcement matter the Council may prepare a written report on that matter and shall (subject to section 42 below) send a copy of any such report to--

(a) any person to whom the report refers or who (whether or not he has made a representation to the Council) appears to the Council to have an interest in the matter to which the report relates ; (b) the Director General of Fair Trading or any person whose functions under any enactment appear to the Council to be exercisable in relation to that matter ;

(c) any person who appears to the Council to be a person who ought to take account of the report in determining how to act in relation to that matter ;

(d) the Director.

(6B) In reporting the matter under subsection (6A), the Council may recommend--

(a) that he matter be reconsidered by the public gas supplier concerned ;

(b) that the Director consider exercising any of his functions under section 28 above.

(6C) More than one recommendation may be included in a report under this section.

(6D) Where the Council includes any recommendation in a report under this section, the report shall give the Council's reasons for making the recommendation.

(6E) Where--

(a) a report is sent to any public gas supplier under subsection (6A) above ; and

(b) the report includes a recommendation directed to that supplier,

he shall have regard to it and notify the Council of the action which he has taken, or proposes to take, to comply with the recommendation.

(6F) Where a public gas supplier fails to comply (whether wholly or partly) with a recommendation under subsection (6B) above the Council shall refer the matter to the Director."

(6) Subsection (7) shall cease to have effect.'.

New Clause 27-- Gas Act 1986 (Duty to advise Director)--

--(1) Section 40 of the Gas Act 1986 (general duty to advise Director shall be amended as follows.

(2) After the words "advise the" there shall be inserted "Secretary of State or, as the case may be, the".

(3) In paragraph (a) after the words "any of the" there shall be inserted "Secretary of State's or, as the case may be, the". (4) In paragraph (b) after the words "by the" there shall be inserted "Secretary of State of the".'.

New clause 28-- Gas Act 1986 (Annual Reports)--

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--(1) Section 41 of the Gas Act 1986 (annual reports) shall be amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (2) after the words "advised the" there shall be inserted "Secretary of State or the".'.

New clause 29-- Gas Act 1986 (Information)--

The following section shall be inserted in the Gas Act 1986, after section 41--

"Information.

41A The Director shall give information collected by or furnished to him under section 38C above to the Council, with a view to facilitating the exercise of the Council's functions under this Part.".'.

New Clause 30-- Electricity Act 1989 (Consumers' Council) -- For section 1 of the Electricity Act 1989 there shall be substituted--

--"The Electricity Consumers' Council.

--2. (1) There shall be a body corporate to be known as the Electricity Consumers' Council (in this Part referred to as the Council') for the purpose of performing the functions assigned to it by this Part.

(2) The Council shall consist of a chairman and such other members as the Secretary of State may from time to time appoint.

(3) In appointing members for the Council, the Secretary of State shall so far as practicable, ensure--

(a) that the members of the Council include members who, by reason of their familiarity with the special requirements and circumstances of the different areas of Great Britain or of small businesses, are able together to represent the interests of consumers of electricity supplied to premises in all those areas and such businesses ; and (b) that the interests of consumers of electricity supplied to premises in different areas are represented by different members wherever that appears to the Secretary of State to be appropriate having regard to the manner in which the various parts of the electricity supply industry in Great Britain organise themselves. (4) In appointing members of the Council, the Secretary of State shall have regard to the desirability of appointing persons who have experience in or knowledge of activities connected with the supply of electricity to premises.

(5) A member of the Council shall hold and vacate office in accordance with the terms of the instrument appointing him and shall, on ceasing to hold office, be eligible for re-appointment. (6) The provisions of Schedule X to this Act shall effect with respect to the Council.".'.

New Clause 31-- Electricity Act 1989 (information by Director) -- The following section shall be inserted in the Electricity Act 1989, after section 42

"42A. The Director shall give information collected by or furnished to him under section 42 above to the Council, with a view to facilitating the exercise of the Council's functions under this Part.".'.

New clause 32-- Electricity Act 1989 (investigation of enforcement matters) --

For section 45 of the Electricity Act 1989 (investigation of enforcement matters) there shall be inserted--

"45.--(1) It shall be the duty of the Director to investigate any matter which appears to him to be an enforcement matter and which-- (a) is the subject of a representation (other than one appearing to the Director to be frivolous) made to the Director by or on behalf of a person appearing to the Director to have an interest in that matter ; or

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(b) is referred to him by the Council under subsection ( ) of section 46 below.

(2) in this section and section 46 below "enforcement matter" means any matter in respect of which any functions of the Director under section 25 above are or may be exercisable.".'.

New Clause 33-- Electricity Act 1989 (investigation of certain matters)--

For section 46 of the Electricity Act 1989 (investigation of certain other matters) there shall be substituted--

"46. ----(1) It shall be the duty of the Council to investigate any matter which to which subsection (2) below applies and which-- (a) is the subject of a representation (other than one appearing to the Council to be frivolous) made to the Council by or on behalf of a person appearing to the Council to have an interest in that matter ; or

(b) is referred to it by the Director under subsection (11) below. (2) This subsection applies to--

(a) any matter in respect of which any functions of the Director under this Part are or may be exercisable ;

(b) any matter (other than an enforcement matter) which relates to the supply of electricity to premises ; and

(c) any matter which relates to the supply of electricity and in respect of which any functions of the Director General of Fair Trading under the Fair Trading Act 1973 or the Competition Act 1980 are or may be exercisable.

(3) Subject to subsection (4) below, it shall be the duty of the Director to refer to the Council any matter which appears to the Director to be a matter (other than an enforcement matter) falling within paragraph (b) of subsection (2) above and which is the subject of a representation (other than one appearing to the Director to be frivolous) made to the Director by or on behalf of a person appearing to the Director to have an interest in that matter.

(4) Nothing in subsection (3) above shall require the Director to refer to the Council any matter in respect of which he is already considering exercising functions under this Part.

(5) Where on an investigation under subsection (1) above any matter appears to the Council to be a matter falling within subsection (2) above in respect of which it would be appropriate for the Director General of Fair Trading to exercise any functions under this Part, the Council shall refer that matter to the Director with a view to his exercising those functions with respect to that matter. (6) Where under an investigation under subsection (1) above any matter appears to the Council to be an enforcement matter the Council may prepare a written report on that matter and shall (subject to section 57 below) send a copy of any such report to--

(c) any person who appears to the Council to be a person who ought to take account of the report in determining how to act in relation to that matter ;

(d) the Director.

(7) In reporting on a matter under subsection (6), the Council may recommend--

(a) that the matter be reconsidered by the electricity supplier concerned ;

(b) that the Director consider exercising any of his functions under this Part.

(8) More than one recommendation may be included in a report under this section.

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