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Mr. Thomas Graham (Renfrew, West and Inverclyde) : Littlewoods provide 600 jobs in my constituency. Before I came down to London this week I spoke to some pensioners in my constituency about various problems that they were facing. They asked what I was doing as their Member of Parliament and what I intended to do this week. I told them that I hoped to speak in the debate on the National Lottery Bill. They said, "What's the National Lottery Bill?" I told them that it was a Bill to set up a lottery which would provide extra money for the arts and culture. Some of the pensioners scratched their heads and said, "Who are these people?" I said, "Well, the guy who is introducing the Bill is a big Tory barrister." They were a little deaf and got it wrong. One of them said, "I suppose they are all like that, Tommy." I said, "Well, some might agree about that." Those pensioners then said that surely people must recognise that pensioners are important to this country. They have given up everything and they now rely on a
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small pension which is being eroded by inflation and price rises. They stressed that pensioners need lifelines like the telephone. They said that elderly people cannot afford to buy television licences. The pensioners are not considered when money is directed towards arts and culture. Half the pensioners to whom I spoke earlier this week cannot afford their television licences. They cannot take part in the cultural or sports worlds.Not long ago I saw the Prime Minister and many other political figures sitting in a park beside members of the royalty. It was bucketing with rain as they watched Pavarotti. The first time that I heard of Pavarotti I thought that it was a bar of soap or an eau de cologne. I later discovered that Pavarotti was a very talented man. The pensioners to whom I have spoken cannot afford that kind of culture, but they are desperate for lifelines like a telephone. Standing orders make no difference to the problems that they face. The National Lotteries Bill will seriously affect my constituency. I have been unemployed. I know the stinking miserable feeling in one's belly when one cannot provide the wherewithal for one's children. I know what it is like. I would fight like blazes to give every unemployed man and woman in this country the right to employment.
The Bill will mean unemployment for at least 5,500 people directly or indirectly. It is ludicrous for a former Minister responsible for sport to plug a lottery. He should have fought to ensure that sports and culture were provided by the Government. It is disgraceful that any country as rich as ours should have a lottery to provide for sport to educate our kids and make them feel healthy. That is absolute nonsense.
Mr. Wilson : The jobs of some of my constituents are involved at the place to which my hon. Friend the Member for Renfrew, West and Inverclyde (Mr. Graham) has referred. Does my hon. Friend acccept that after that major fire which destroyed the Littlewoods factory in Glasgow, Littlewoods could have centralised the jobs in Liverpool and got rid of about 700 jobs in my hon. Friend's constituency ? Instead, Littlewoods decided to maintain the level of employment not least because of its long-standing commitment to areas in which it has provided employment for many years.
Mr. Graham : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing that to my attention. I was very impressed by the caring attitude and tremendous enthusiasm of Littlewoods and the way in which it kept the girls in employment. Conservative Members may smile, but for people who live in Strathclyde which has one of the worst unemployment levels in Europe, a job and a wage packet are so important. When the girls saw the factory burn down, the broke their hearts crying. They thought that that was it. They thought that they would be back on the dole and back to that miserable pittance which the Government provide. The girls faced that before Christmas, but Littlewoods paid their wages and provided jobs for people who desperately needed them. That is the kind and considerate face of industry that I appreciate. I wish that we were dealing with Littlewoods and not the black Scholey in respect of the Ravenscraig workers.
Unemployment is a scourge. Some single parent women at Littlewoods in my constituency receive quite good pay. Their working conditions are also good. Any woman in
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Scotland with a good job and quite good money would have nightmares if she thought that that job was to be taken from her. Those jobs will be lost if the Bill is successful. Thousands of people will be on the scrap heap if the Bill is passed. Thirty five thousand jobs have already been lost in my constituency. In Scotland we face the closure of Ravenscraig and Armitage Shanks. In the face of that, a rich Tory barrister who has probably been wealthy all his life and has never faced the possibility of unemployment--except perhaps at the next general election when the electorate will get rid of him--wants to introduce this Bill. I will fight for my constituents' right to work.Mr. Bellotti : With regard to the hon. Gentleman's point about unemployment, is he aware that 50,000 people are employed in betting offices throughout the country? As there is a limited amount of money, if that money is not spent through betting shops, the jobs of those 50,000 people will be at risk. That is almost the same number of people at risk as in the football industry.
Mr. Graham : I am grateful for that point.
I said that I would fight vigorously to defend the right of my constituents to continue to work for Littlewoods. It is the Government's responsibility to provide cash for sports and culture.
Mr. Kilfoyle : Does my hon. Friend agree that many of the jobs in the pools industry in Strathclyde involve women who are the sole bread winners? If they lose their jobs, whole families will be destitute, not just the individuals concerned.
Mr. Graham : That is absolutely right. The 5,500 people to whom I have referred pay tax. That tax provides money for the local council. If those people are thrown on to the dole, they will stop contributing through tax and central Government will have to support them.
I have lived in Glasgow all my life. I could never afford private sporting facilities. My local council provided the wherewithal. It provided the soccer field, the swimming baths, tennis courts and bowling greens.
The Bill represents an abdication by the Government of their duty and responsibility to provide people with jobs. We should let lotteries remain in other parts of the world. We do not want to import lotteries from Spain with its bullfighting, and so on. Let us not support the alien concept of a national lottery.
12.19 pm
Sir John Farr (Harborough) : I congratulate my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence) not only on being No. 1 in the ballot for Bills--something that many of us have sought to be--but on the subject that he has chosen. My hon. and learned Friend deployed his argument with great skill and persuasion. I support the Bill. I shall certainly go into the Lobby and give my hon. and learned Friend what support and encouragement I can.
However, that is not to say that the Bill is perfect by any means. All hon. Members could improve it. However, let us consider the Bill in Committee so that some of us who have a real interest in it may have an opportunity to deploy many of the important arguments that we have received. I
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am delighted to see my hon. and learned Friend still in his place. He is attentive today, and I do not blame him. It is important to state that several hon. Members have a few points of real concern. One matter that springs straight to mind is the fact that my hon. and learned Friend is in danger of establishing one of the biggest quangos of all time. Perhaps that matter can be debated in Standing Committee. When he so skilfully introduced the Bill, my hon. and learned Friend said that some of the wording of the Bill was faulty. I have never been one to support state quangos. However, we seem unwittingly to be establishing the mother and daddy of all state quangos. We should consider that matter in Committee and see how we can improve it.Like other hon. Members, I have had many representations about the pools. It is easy to say that the pools are part of the British way of life and so on. They are. Any threat to the structure of the football pools must be taken seriously. However, any such threat is not sufficient for us not to let my hon. and learned Friend's Bill through. Let us consider it in Standing Committee and make it possible for the existing football pools structure to continue in the United Kingdom as it has done so successfully for many years. Hon. Members have received letters from Zetters and Littlewoods, fearing the worst if the Bill is successful. The pools can still enjoy their traditional place in British society, unimpaired.
One of the most impressive documents that I have received was from the Advisory Forum on Gambling. Hon. Members know all about that forum. It had severe reservations about my hon. and learned Friend's Bill. However, its reservations can be put right in Committee. Some of its real fears can be satisfied if the Bill is carefully amended. The real point in question is the Bill's purpose. My hon. and learned Friend mentioned that the Bill is to benefit the arts, sport and heritage. Who chose those subjects? Why must they be the only subjects? There may be an argument for some support, but one can make a strong case for health, medicine, pensioners and the elderly. Why are they not mentioned in the Bill?
If my hon. and learned Friend wants to go down in history--I know that he does--all that he has to do is to include a guarantee that all old age pensioners will have free TV licences, which would cost £150 million a year. There would be a marble statue of my hon. and learned Friend in my constituency. Ordinary people are not so interested in football. They are not so interested in art galleries. They are not particularly interested in the arts. I expect that they may be interested in heritage. However, they are most interested in free television licences. If there were free TV licences, Conservative central office would also erect a statue to him.
I have received a letter from Tenovus. I have received several letters about the national lottery from such groups. Tenovus, of course, fights cancer. It is very worried about its position in the world. My hon. and learned Friend wants Tenovus to continue and to flourish. Let us consider the Bill in Committee and improve it. I should not like to conclude without congratulating the research staff in the House of Commons Library. It may be unusual to do that, but I shall probably never get another opportunity. They do a wonderful job in producing the fantastic research documents that we take for granted and never mention. I pay tribute to Jane Fiddick, who has
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produced a document on my hon. and learned Friend's Bill. It is a masterpiece which sets out all the arguments for and against. I have great pleasure in supporting my hon. and learned Friend's Bill.12.27 pm
Mr. Terry Fields (Liverpool, Broadgreen) : Just 24 hours after the announcement of an increase of 80,000 in the number of people on the unemployment register, and in anticipation of a rise in inflation today, millions of workers--and certainly my constituents and the people of Liverpool--will wonder why we are spending five hours on a Friday morning discussing a national lottery when the economic and social conditions in our inner-city areas demand the Government's attention.
Having heard the speeches of failed sports Ministers and failed arts Ministers, with confessions from their own lips that during their periods in office they failed to gain sufficient funding from the Government--
Mr. Burns : What about failed Labour Members of Parliament? Mr. Fields rose --
Mr. Tracey : Pay the poll tax.
Mr. Fields : This matter is too important, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for me to rise to the bait of those who have failed this country not only in relation to the arts and sport, but economically and socially too.
The hon. and learned Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence) is weaving a tatty cloak to confuse people. Great play has been made of the fact that a poll has been taken and that huge numbers of people would support a national lottery. If somebody said to me, "How do you fancy winning £1 million every week?", I would, of course, say, "Yes" ; but the lottery itself will still have to be paid for.
It has already been said that the lottery will not be run by the Government or the civil service. It will be a private lottery, which means that people could milk it and make profits from the greed and acquisitiveness that Thatcherism has produced in many people in the past 13 years.
At first sight, the detail of the Bill seems uncontroversial. It refers to raising large sums of money for good causes. The hon. and learned Member for Burton referred to £3 billion or £4 billion, but one of my hon. Friends has said that the hon. and learned Gentleman simply took those figures off the top of his head. In a debate on 16 February 1988 on establishing a national lottery in favour of the health service, initiated by the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns), it became clear that there is no substance to the idea that between £3 billion and £5 billion could be raised. As my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, South- East (Mr. Nellist) said in 1988, the most that has been raised by the lottery in America is £200 million. The figure for France was £540 million ; for Spain £690 million ; and for Germany £910 million. Therefore, there is nothing to back up the idea of a potential revenue of £4 billion, which, I am sure, would be an attractive figure to many people. That is simply supposition and conjecture by the hon. and learned Member for Burton.
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The hon. and learned Gentleman referred to providing finance for good causes and to improving the welfare state. He even went as far as to say that some of the charitable donations would aid medical research. I find it disgusting and nauseating that people such as the hon. and learned Gentleman and his Friends who, in the past 13 years, have trooped through the Lobbies consistently to attack the health service, education, housing and the poor in our society, such as pensioners and the disabled, should now raise the spectre of a lottery as a panacea for the ills of millions of people in this country.The hon. and learned Gentleman stated in The House Magazine not only that the lottery would raise £3 billion a year, but that it would not affect the low-paid because they do not buy lottery tickets. However, experience in Ireland disproves that contention. Fund-raising for charities has attracted money from low-paid families, thus causing even more financial distress to those who seek the pot of gold.
Apart from my concern about the social consequences of the proposed lottery, I speak with a vested interest because I come from Liverpool and Littlewoods Pools is based in my constituency. I live a stone's throw from the new Vernons complex. We in Liverpool are proud of our area. We already have high unemployment as a direct consequence of the Government's policies and the system that they represent. The Bill would jeopardise the jobs of 6,000 mainly female workers in Liverpool, many of whom already face the prospect of being their families' sole bread winner. That is the prospect for an area that has been evaluated as a centre of poverty, not only by those of us who live in Liverpool, but by experts.
I hope and believe that the Bill will be defeated today and that hon. Members will not support it. There are other ways of achieving what have speciously been referred to as "good social works". Such works will not be achieved by the Conservative party, a member of which has introduced the Bill. When one looks at the social and economic conditions that prevail in this country today, one sees that such people are not philanthropists. People talk about obtaining new money by the lottery. Where will the new money come from? Reference has been made to the poll tax. This week 135,000 poverty-stricken people in Liverpool are going through the courts. Where will they find the money to fund the arts? They cannot afford to go into galleries or even the bus fares to travel there. Yet those are the people who are supposed to be enamoured of the Bill.
The record of the hon. and learned Member for Burton on health, education, housing and funding local authorities, pensioners and the poor does not attract me to him or anything that he stands for. I believe that the House will reject the Bill today and that people in my constituency will be happy about that.
12.34 pm
Mr. Simon Burns (Chelmsford) : May I first add my congratulations to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence) on winning the lottery of the private Members' ballot and introducing this Bill. As my hon. Friend the Member for Surbiton (Mr. Tracey) said, it is a Bill which has reached its time and is long overdue. In order not to cause any confusion or fall foul of the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), I should--
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although I am not sure that I must--declare an interest. After I introduced my 10-minute Bill on a national lottery in 1988 I spent a week visiting the United States sponsored by others to see how lotteries operated in certain states.The people of Britain enjoy a justifiably high reputation for the generosity with which they donate money earned by themselves to good causes. The Charities Aid Foundation calculated in 1985 that there were 160,000 charities in England and Wales which raised over £12.5 billion for good causes. Since that date we have seen the phenomena of Live Aid, telethons and the Wishing Well appeal for Great Ormond Street hospital. That shows beyond any reasonable doubt that we are a nation of givers. In addition to those high-profile fund-raising activities, various forms of local lotteries have been permitted under existing legislation. They were consolidated in the Lotteries and Amusements Act 1976. However, they have tended to be a failure. In 1983-84 there were 4,045 local lotteries, with ticket sales of just over £40 million. By 1987-88 there were only 1,401 local lotteries, with sales of only £21 million. Those figures show a decline of 76 and 59 per cent. respectively. The cause of that decline is not the basic idea or principle behind the lotteries but that they are too small and fail to generate enough interest or excitement. Only a national lottery can achieve that. Furthermore, because there are so many lotteries throughout the country on such small scales, they tend to dilute their own effect. Similarly, the maximum prize money laid down by legislation is so relatively small that it does not attract enough people to participate.
If a lottery is to be successful, it is crucial that excitement be generated. Far too often, the time scale between purchase of the ticket and the draw in a local lottery is far too long to generate success. That is why I believe that my hon. and learned Friend is so right to seek to get away from the legislation that is failing and introduce a single national lottery that will generate interest, excitement and sales so that we can make a success of it and make available generous amounts of money for good causes such as sport, the arts, heritage and charities.
One of the main reasons for personal opposition to lotteries is that they encourage gambling. There is a great deal of contradiction and confusion in that position. I also suspect that some people in Britain always oppose lotteries and gambling for the same reason that they would like to see alcohol and tobacco and certain activities which they consider a vice banned. It is important to make a distinction for a national lottery.
All too often many people who say that a lottery would encourage gambling and, thus, is wrong will unwittingly contribute to gambling. For example, I think that I am right in saying that every major political party represented in the House generates some of its funds, either locally or nationally, through gambling. Any hon. Member who goes to church or party political fete will probably buy a raffle ticket during his or her political career--probably quite often. That is gambling. That is a form of lottery, yet the people who buy tickets and who may be opposed to gambling will not condemn such activities.
Mr. Bellotti : The distinction that I should like the hon. Member to tackle is what the proceeds of gambles are for.
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In the Bill that the hon. Member put before the House in 1988, he suggested that the proceeds of his proposal should go to the national health service. Does he still hold that view? Has he not come round to the view that the Government ought to provide all the funds necessary for the health service, and that we should not have a national lottery to support it?Mr. Burns : The hon. Gentleman is trying to tempt me down a cul-de- sac off the Bill before us. However, he is incorrect. The Government have increased national health service spending substantially in the past 12 years. Furthermore, if he read carefully the reasons behind my Bill he would realise that it was to provide additional funds. For many years the health service has benefited from additional funds raised by leagues of friends and other interested parties.
To return to the Bill, a number of people who have strong religious convictions, which I respect, condemn gambling but are happy to buy raffle tickets at a church fete and take part in gambling activities to encourage the financing of their local church, a rebuilding project, or whatever else.
Before people strongly criticise gambling they should examine their own behaviour. They should not use that as an excuse--as what they believe is a respectable front--to oppose the principle of a national lottery. If they do so, they will be failing many organisations that could genuinely benefit from the additional money generated by a national lottery.
Like many other hon. Members, I have been bombarded with data, correspondence and lobbying by the pools organisations, which have been mentioned so often in the debate. In many ways they operate as a cartel and have a monopoly on a national lottery. I fully appreciate that they are fearful of any competition and that they want to defend vigorously their self-interest by throwing up some red herrings and some genuine causes for concern about a national lottery. If such a national lottery were to be successful it might well cause some decline in their revenue, although by nowhere near the amount that they are suggesting. They are defending what is, in effect, a monopolistic national lottery.
I do not see why we should automatically accept that a national lottery will ruin the pools system. The examples of Belgium and Greece have been bandied about the House, but that argument was effectively squashed because they did not run their pools on their own football games--it is obvious that that weakens loyalty to the pools system--whereas in this country the system is based on our football leagues. So in that respect I see no reason why a lottery should be detrimental. Similarly, pools promoters who oppose a national lottery are more deserving of being described as selfish--as they have accused others of being--because they seek to protect the pools, with their link to football, at the price of depriving the rest of British sports, arts and heritage of the funding, capital and endowment funds that they so desperately need. I do not see why they should be so keen to deprive others. There is more money to be shared. The cake should be widened and shared, so that everyone can benefit.
A national lottery would be popular and fun. It would generate income to help deserving causes. I greatly hope that my hon. and learned Friend's Bill will be given a Second Reading.
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12.44 pmMs. Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) : I am pleased to have the chance today to contribute briefly to the debate. I have always supported the concept of a national lottery and I am even more convinced now of the need for one than I was 10 years ago.
Although I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell) that the Bill is unlikely to become legislation in its present form, I am delighted that it provides an opportunity for people to hear the arguments on both sides, for us to air many of the misconceptions about a national lottery and for the Home Office officials to take lots of notes. No matter what Government are in power after the general election--I know that there will be a Labour Government--at some stage next Session Home Office officials will draft a proper Bill, so I hope that they are listening hard today.
It is particularly important that we are discussing this at the beginning of 1992. No matter what is being said, other European countries will undoubtedly find a way of getting their national lottery tickets sold here. They are already coming here and each year thousands of tickets are seized by Customs and Excise. The European gambling industry is large and I believe that it will not continue to be outside the terms of the single market. That is the context in which we need to consider the debate.
In Northern Ireland it is not so much poor people buying lottery tickets from southern Ireland as people in cars queuing up and going over the border to buy lottery tickets. Other countries' lottery tickets are already being sold in the United Kingdom. [Hon. Members :-- "Illegally."] Yes, illegally, and that will continue until gambling comes within the terms of the single market, as I am convinced that it will.
This is an enabling Bill. It does not go into detail. There are different views about the details and how a national lottery would work, but the Bill does lay down clear areas for the proceeds--sport, the arts, the heritage and small charities. Lotteries should target particular projects. I have views on how a national lottery should work. We should not follow the example of some other countries. We should have lotteries aimed at particular targets, such as to build a velodrome. That will involve not just those who want to take part in a lottery but people with a particular interest in the project who will buy a one-off ticket because they know that their money is going to a worthwhile project. We could consider all sorts of possibilities for the detail.
National lottery proceeds are not a substitute for money that should come from the state. Lottery proceeds are extra money. All the sponsors of the Bill agree on that ; there is no way that the proceeds can go to anything other than what has been mentioned here without a further debate in Parliament, a complete change and a new Bill. None of the sponsors wants that. We know clearly where the proceeds should go.
Last night at a Labour party ward meeting I spent £2 on a raffle ticket. I did not win--I never do. I do not believe that buying a lottery ticket or a raffle ticket is gambling. Nor do I believe that the average member of the British public believes that it is. To buy a lottery ticket would be totally different from gambling on the pools or on horses or dog racing. To participate in a lottery is a harmless amusement, just like a raffle, and is far removed from the compulsive world of casinos, card houses and gaming machines. It is
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patronising to the poor to imply that they do not have the free will to make a choice about whether to buy a lottery ticket. I accept that some people are totally opposed to gambling, but I do not believe that a lottery would extend gambling as those people fear. We have been inundated with literature about this issue from the pools industry. I wonder how much it has spent on that? However, it has the right to lobby for its industry. It is a question of balance. I do not believe that those who have done the pools for years will suddenly stop doing so because a national lottery has been introduced. I do the pools with Zetters, not Littlewoods--I am giving Zetters a plug--and I have done so for many years. I have never won a penny, but I shall not cancel my standing order simply because a national lottery may be introduced. I do not believe that others will stop doing the pools either. It is patronising to suggest that people are so easily persuaded to change a habit of a lifetime. People should have the choice about what they want to do.One of the good things that has come from the debate on a national lottery is that the pools industry has started to realise that perhaps it has taken too much of the profits and that not enough has gone back into football. After all, most of those who play the pools have an interest in that sport. Perhaps the pools industry will now put more money back into football in an attempt to win the argument. Our pools industry is unique, as it is totally different from that run in any other European country. It has a long history. I do not believe that it will be affected by the introduction of a national lottery. At the most, the effects on the pools industry will be slight.
I appreciate the concerns that have been expressed by those who represent Liverpool and Glasgow about the possible loss of jobs. However, I do not believe that those jobs will be threatened, because I do not believe that people will stop doing the pools just because a lottery is introduced. The people who will buy a one-off lottery ticket will be different from those who do the pools regularly. I am pleased that small charities are mentioned in the Bill. I appreciate the anxieties that are felt by local football clubs and sports clubs that run small-scale lotteries. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) has said, people buy a lottery ticket in those circumstances out of loyalty to their club. In essence, they are giving a donation because they do not expect to win a huge amount of money. I do not believe that that loyalty will be put at risk by the introduction of a national lottery.
The debate has been useful because it has revealed some existing prejudices. Even if the Bill does not receive its Second Reading, no one can deny that the public would like a national lottery. However, that lottery must be carefully planned and scrutinised so that it can win people's confidence.
Those who are doing the pools this weekend have nothing to fear. If a national lottery were introduced, they would still be able to do the pools. I am absolutely convinced that the pools industry and the jobs associated with it are not threatened. Today's debate marks the beginning, because this issue will not go away.
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12.54 pmThe Parliamentary Under-Secretary for the Home Department (Mr. Peter Lloyd) : Rather than my commenting individually on the many good speeches that have been made in this lively debate, the House might find it more helpful if I set out the Government's position. I congratulate my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence) on his good fortune in the ballot for private Members' Bills. As several hon. Members have said, it is appropriate that his success in the parliamentary lottery for legislative time should provide the opportunity to debate the introduction of a national lottery for good causes. The odds of winning a national lottery must be better than those of winning the ballot for private Members' Bills.
My hon. and learned Friend made a characteristically vigorous and full speech. I applaud his initiative in bringing the issue before the House. The Government warmly welcome the idea of a national lottery or lotteries. We recognise, as many hon. Members have, that they could raise substantial amounts of money for good causes. On the basis of experience abroad, estimates of turnover here range from £1 billion to £4 billion or more, although such comparisons should be treated with much caution. We have seen how other countries have managed to provide resources for valuable projects that would not, and probably could not, have been funded from ordinary public expenditure. Indeed, as my hon. and learned Friend said, apart from Albania, the United Kingdom is the only European country that does not have a lottery.
The first Westminster bridge in 1750 and the setting up of the British museum in 1753 were financed by lotteries. Despite such achievements, state lotteries in this country ended in 1826. However, there is no shortage of projects today that, with funds from a national lottery, could improve the quality of life in the United Kingdom.
The success of foreign lotteries provides an additional argument for having a national lottery here. It has frequently been predicted that we shall be forced to accept national lotteries from other EC countries on or soon after 1 January 1993. Indeed, that prediction has been repeated today, but the Government believe that the threat has been highly exaggerated. The programme for completion of the single market does not contain proposals for the harmonisation of gambling legislation. The European Commission is studying gambling in the single market, but no formal proposals have been made. We believe that our present prohibition on major lotteries, which applies equally to domestic and foreign ones, is compatible with EC law. By contrast, other EC countries have national lotteries, but do not allow foreign lotteries to operate in their territory.
Mr. Tracey : Will my hon. Friend confirm that between 3 million and 6 million unofficial lotteries come into this country by letter and are not stopped by Customs?
Mr. Lloyd : No, I cannot confirm that, because those that we do not catch we do not know about, but about 3 million forms have been seized by Customs in the past year.
Our policy is that controls on gambling should remain a matter for national authorities. We believe that many other countries will take a similar view. We cannot be certain of the final outcome, but it seems extremely unlikely, to put it mildly, that there will be a common
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market in lotteries in the foreseeable future. It is likely to become increasingly easy for individuals to participate in foreign lotteries. For example, satellite television provides new opportunities for foreign lotteries to promote themselves. Modern technology means that participation will become easier. Such developments may take a number of years to emerge, but their impact is likely to grow with time.There are incentives for European countries to try to promote their lotteries here. Without a national lottery here, there will be incentives for people who wish to take part in other lotteries to do so. Those incentives would be considerably less if we had our major lottery in support of good causes.
Clearly my hon. and learned Friend, who is an experienced hand where private Members' legislation is concerned and a shrewd lawyer to boot, rightly recognises that there are many ways of providing and regulating national lotteries and that there are a host of practical considerations that have to be thought through and which it is not practicable to tackle in a private Member's Bill. That is why, I am sure that his Bill is deliberately designed--indeed, he said as much--as an enabling measure which provides a broad framework and leaves the Government to fill in by means of subordinate legislation not merely the gritty detail, but most of the substance.
Leaving aside for a moment whether that is a proper and desirable way for the House to bring in a measure which will have a very wide impact on a whole range of charities and businesses, the Bill nevertheless does in fact limit the range of possible options considerably more than might appear at first sight. The most important way in which it does so is by providing for a single lottery rather than opening up the opportunity for genuine charitable concerns--singly or grouped together--to run a lottery nationally, as they now do successfully locally. That is a very substantial issue with implications for many charitable interests, particularly for those who currently benefit from their local lotteries, but who feel that they may well not be high on the priority list for help from a single national lottery.
If we opt for a single lottery, decisions have, of course, to be made about who will benefit, and machinery has to be devised to share out the proceeds. The Bill proposes that arts, sports and the heritage should receive the lion's share. Charities are to get no more than 10 per cent., perhaps less. All these causes are undoubtedly worth-while, but there are many who would argue that the proceeds should be split differently or that other good causes should be included.
One means of resolving these difficulties would be to allow a free market in major lotteries. In this way, the public could decide which good cause or causes they wanted to support. We already have a free market in small local lotteries. No charity would be excluded from the benefits of a major lottery if it could run one properly and cared to risk the considerable investment either on its own or--much more likely--in conjunction with others. While it is attractive for those reasons, I also acknowledge there are strong arguments the other way. The greater number of lotteries, at least initially, could mean that each one would have lower prizes and attract lower turnover and so raise less money in total than a single lottery. That need not, however, be the outcome. The merits of that approach, rather than the single national lottery proposed
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by the Bill, need further consideration and consultation before legislation is introduced which must inevitably close off one option.Another way in which the Bill appears to limit options is that it seems to provide for the national lottery regulatory authority to run only one lottery at a time. Some countries, although they have a single authority, are able to run a number of different games at the same time. The question of the number and nature of the lotteries that may be run will affect the potential available for good causes. It would also have implications for other existing forms of gambling, particularly small lotteries.
The Bill also rules out a regulatory role for the Gaming Board for Great Britain which currently has responsibility for licensing small lotteries. I do not now claim that, if we had a single national lottery, there would necessarily be a substantial regulatory burden or that regulation must fall to the Gaming Board, but we certainly need to think carefully about, and reflect in primary legislation, where the responsibility for regulation should rest and how it should be conducted.
I mention these as areas in which, despite the care of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton, any enabling legislation must inevitably close off some important options. He might argue that some of these difficulties, though not, I suggest, all of them, could be overcome by amending the Bill in Committee to allow even greater flexibility. But rather than leaving even more out, I suspect that there are already a number of matters which the House might feel should be included in any well -formulated primary legislation on the issue.
For example, the Bill says nothing about the maximum proportions of total turnover which can be devoted to prizes or to expenses. This is not just a matter of consumer protection. If a national lottery is to fulfil its main charitable purpose, it is crucial to ensure that a minimum proportion goes to good causes. In relation to existing charity and local authority lotteries, no more than half the turnover may be devoted to prizes and no more than 25 per cent. may be used for expenses. Those limits are laid down in primary legislation. That seems to me to be right, both because it is a major aspect of regulation, and because otherwise we could be faced with constant pressure to keep changing the proportions. Equally, there would need to be careful study of all the evidence before deciding what the proportions should be for a national lottery.
There is also the essential bread and butter question, with implications for amending existing primary legislation, as to how a national lottery would fit into the wider framework of gambling controls. Lotteries have always been regarded as the softest form of gambling. They are the only form of gambling which may be advertised quite freely, including on television and radio. By contrast, all other forms of gambling are subject to varying degrees of control on the facilities they can offer to attract customers, and on their advertising. In particular, the broadcast advertising of all betting and gaming is prohibited.
The implications for advertising controls are, therefore, one obvious area requiring study. We need to consider whether controls on the extent and nature of the advertising of a national lottery are necessary. The controls on advertising of commercial gambling will also need to be considered. Some of these are contained in primary legislation. But there may be demands for other changes. Premises used for gambling might want to sell lottery tickets, which is at present unlawful. The pools
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companies would want the controls on them relaxed, perhaps by making coupons available in shops, and changes in the law to permit regular jackpots.All those points must be examined. It may well prove that no changes can be justified. I suspect that many people would take the view that a national lottery for good causes can be distinguished easily from all other commercial gambling and there might be strong opposition to a national lottery if it were allowed to lead to a significant extension of commercial gambling. But many of the points that I have mentioned would require primary legislation. They need to be considered at the same time as the introduction of a national lottery, not as an afterthought.
Mr. Lawrence : I agree with all that my hon. Friend the Minister has said, and I am grateful for his remarks. But, as he keeps repeating that there would be a need for primary legislation, does he not agree that whatever may be added to the Bill in Committee or at other points in its passage through Parliament would become primary legislation? All the suggestions that my hon. Friend has made are no reason why the Bill should not go into Committee.
Mr. Lloyd : I have also mentioned many times the need for consultation, study and the taking of evidence. The time scale and methods of a private Member's Bill do not allow for that. The question of gambling controls leads directly to the likely effect of a national lottery on existing gambling, particularly the football pools, as we have heard this morning. The supporters of a national lottery argue that it will tap a source of new money and that the existing gambling industry will not be affected. But the huge sums which it is claimed will be raised by a national lottery must come from somewhere, and that may well be from people who spend nothing on gambling at the moment, but who will be drawn to take part in a national lottery. Equally, it would be surprising if some people did not, in the event, divert some or all of their spending on existing gambling into a new national lottery.
It is, of course, difficult to tell in advance to what extent a national lottery would reduce expenditure on existing forms of gambling. The football pools are the nearest thing we have to a national lottery and I know that their organisers are very concerned. They even say that they could eventually be driven out of business and point to other countries where the introduction of a major lottery has killed or seriously damaged the football pools. At present, the pools companies employ about 6,500 people, mainly in areas of high unemployment. Those jobs, as well as those of about 70, 000 part-time pools collectors, are thus, they insist, at risk. The evidence of surveys about the likely effect on the pools is mixed. The survey conducted for the Rothschild commissioners suggested that about 25 per cent. of regular pools participants would switch to a national lottery. More recently, opinion surveys on behalf of supporters of a national lottery have suggested that under 10 per cent. of pools participants would spend less on the pools. The conflicting evidence about the impact of a national lottery on the pools illustrates the need for a careful examination of the issues. We should not just brush aside their concerns, but we should not accept that a national lottery must mean major difficulty, if not the end, for the
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pools. We need to study the evidence carefully and to give those directly affected the chance to put not only their views, but the evidence on which they base their views.Mr. Ashton : The Government have said that football grounds will have to be all-seater--as a result of 95 people having been killed at Hillsborough--by 1994 for the first and second divisions. The money for that will have to come from the pools and the Government are now blocking their contribution. If the football pools money were to collapse, would the Government still insist on the all-seater legislation being implemented by 1994 ?
Mr. Lloyd : The hon. Gentleman makes the assumption that legislation will be introduced which will cause the pools to collapse. The hon. Gentleman said that the money comes from the pools now, but would not come if the pools collapsed. The effect of a national lottery on the pools must be thought through and the question would have to be addressed before legislation went through the House.
To the extent that a national lottery would have an impact on the pools or, indeed, on any other form of commercial gambling, the Government must also take account of the revenue implications. In 1990-91, just over £1 billion was raised from betting and gaming duties, of which about 30 per cent. came from pool betting duty. In many countries, national lotteries are either taxed or the proceeds directly to the Exchequer. The Rothschild royal commission suggested that a national lottery should be taxed at 10 per cent. of turnover. There is certainly a strong case for taxation of a national lottery, although that, thank goodness, is ultimately a matter on which the Chancellor, rather than I, will animadvert.
Mr. Bob Cryer (Bradford, South) : That was a Freudian slip.
Mr. Lloyd : It was not a Freudian slip. My hesitation means that I need a drink of water.
The revenue implications of a national lottery also need to be resolved before legislation is passed.
I come now to what may be one of the most important issues that need to be taken into account--the implications for existing charitable lotteries and charitable giving generally. Many European countries have long traditions of national lotteries, but weaker patterns of charitable giving than this country has. Although direct international comparisons cannot, therefore, be made, the introduction of a national lottery might affect charitable giving by individuals, estimated to be between £3.5 billion and £5 billion in 1989-90. Many national and local charities and sporting bodies promote lotteries under the current law. Such lotteries provide sums which, although small compared with the proceeds of a national lottery, are vital to the charities concerned. The Bill proposes that charities should receive no more than 10 per cent. of the proceeds of a national lottery. That may well be insufficient to compensate charities for what they might lose in revenue diverted from their existing small lotteries. Indeed, it may be impossible to ensure that all small charities that feel that they have lost out are compensated however high the percentage adopted, especially if a section of the public come to confine their charitable giving to the purchase of national lottery tickets.
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