House of Commons Hansard Debates for 20 Jan 1992

The Attorney-General (Sir Patrick Mayhew) : In 1990, there was one prosecution for an offence under part III of the Public Order Act 1986 and in 1991, there were four such prosecutions. In 1991, proceedings were commenced in a further case, but they have not yet been concluded.

Mr. Marshall : May I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that answer. Although regretting the need for

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such prosecutions, may I congratulate him on the vigour with which he prosecutes those who peddle such odious doctrines?

The Attorney-General : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. "Odious" is the word for the publications that infringe the Act. I wish that it were possible to bring more of those who are responsible for them to justice, but, as my hon. Friend knows, because he makes a close study of such matters, it is often impossible for the police to identify those who are responsible.

Mr. Janner : May I first associate myself with the words of the hon. Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall) with whom I fully agree? That the Government are now taking action is appreciated. Will the Attorney-General please assure the House that such action will also be taken against people who do not normally reside here, such as Louis Farrakhan--if by mistake he or anyone like him is allowed in--if they come to this country to try to stir up racial hatred in this decent land?

The Attorney-General : The hon. and learned Gentleman is friendly in his remarks. He should know that it is not the Government who take action in these matters, but the Attorney-General. They are extremely important matters. The hon. and learned Gentleman will know that I recently had the privilege of giving the Sir George Bean memorial lecture in which I set out in some detail to the Association of Jewish Ex-Servicemen and Women the basis for my approach to such matters. It may be helpful to me to put a copy of that lecture in the Library.

Sunday Trading

25. Mr. Simon Hughes : To ask the Attorney-General how many representations he has received since the beginning of December which have been critical of his reaction to Sunday opening of stores.

The Attorney-General : Including letters addressed to other Ministers and transferred to me, the answer is about 2,000. Substantive replies have been sent in almost every case.

Mr. Hughes : Does the Attorney-General accept that the many letters protesting at his view about Sunday trading, as expressed in the House, suggest that the matter should be reconsidered by the Government, especially as the approach appears to be inconsistent and hypocritical? On Sunday trading, the Government say that there is a risk that the European Court might rule against us, so they take no action. On the environmental impact assessment directive, the European Commission sent a letter before action had been taken, accompanied by a personal letter. The Government said then that although they have been told that they are in the wrong, they will do nothing about it. Surely European laws should be either obeyed or disobeyed. It should not be a matter of pick and choose, as the Government please.

The Attorney-General : It is a pity that the hon. Gentleman did not listen to my last answer. If he had, he would have heard me say that it was for the Attorney-General to enforce the law, not the Government. The answer on this subject that I gave in November made it perfectly clear that the decision is mine and nobody else's. I think that those letters show a wholly

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understandable sense of frustration, but the House of Lords, before which an appeal is pending, has shown uncertainty about whether the provisions of the Shops Act 1950 remain part of our domestic law. Accordingly, the House of Lords referred the issues to the European Court of Justice so that the House of Lords could answer that question. I keep the matter under review, as I must, but in the circumstances I am not persuaded that the public interest requires me to take the necessarily large number of actions up and down the country.

Mr. Tony Banks : Action was taken on the poll tax.

The Attorney-General : Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will contrive to listen to what I am saying on this complicated matter. My jurisdiction is limited to taking action in the public interest. Local authorities have a separate and specific jurisdiction conferred on them by the Act, and the course that they take is a matter for their judgment. The environmental assessment aspect is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, the relevant Minister.

Mr. Channon : Can my right hon. and learned Friend give us any estimate of the time that will elapse before the European Court gives its judgment on the matter? Can my right hon. and learned Friend take any action to shorten that period and clear up what is a highly unsatisfactory situation, whatever view one takes on Sunday opening?

The Attorney-General : I agree that it is unsatisfactory. The Government have asked the European Court at Luxembourg to expedite its hearing. The best that I can say is that we shall receive the answer to the question that the House of Lords has asked in forthcoming months--I hope that the number involved will be few, not great.

Mr. Anderson : What is the Attorney-General's authority for saying that he cannot rely on Crown privilege in relation to cross undertakings for damages? Is not it crystal clear that the Government are willingly in collusion with those stores that are using salami tactics bit by bit-- before Christmas, between Christmas and the new year and after the new year --and which so handsomely contribute to Conservative party funds? Surely, circumstances have now changed and any reasonable Attorney-General would respond accordingly.

The Attorney-General : I have not troubled to inquire whether any firm has contributed to the Conservative party--[ Hon. Members :-- "Oh."] It is a matter of total indifference to me, as it should be to the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson). If he chooses to use the word "collusion", and apply it to me in that context, he is attributing dishonourable conduct--he should be ashamed of doing so.

Sir John Farr : Will my right hon. and learned Friend consider advising local authorities--which still seem to be unaware of their present powers on which they can act and circulating information to them to tell them that if they want to come down on Sunday traders, the statute book in Britain already gives them that authority?

The Attorney-General : I understand my hon. Friend's point, but the section is entirely clear and I think that all local authorities are aware of its provisions, which place the primary duty of enforcing the Shops Act 1950 on them. There is no shortage of advice available to local authorities

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to enable them to decide whether, in uncertain circumstances, it is politic for them to seek to start proceedings, whether criminal or civil. That is for local authorities to decide, and it is not for me to offer them advice.

Mr. Fraser : Does the Attorney-General agree that the defence of using the treaty of Rome in relation to breaches of the Shops Act 1950 is pretty flimsy and slender? As the European Court delays are providing a valuable premium for some people and holding up injunctive relief in this country, should not further representations be made to the European Court to deal with the problem as an injunctive matter so that certainty is quickly returned to the courts of this country?

The Attorney-General : We certainly want to know the answer and the House of Lords, which is dealing with an appeal in the B and Q case, also wants to know the answer. The hon. Gentleman is a distinguished and experienced solicitor. I do not know whether he wishes to reconsider what on earth he means by saying that it is a flimsy excuse : either it is part of the law, or it is not. So long as there is uncertainty about the matter, that must have a bearing on whether enforcement proceedings are taken by the Attorney-General up and down the country in a necessarily very large number of cases. I explained to the House in November that I do not consider that the public interest lies in my taking that very large number of proceedings up and down the country in those circumstances. Whether local authorities take the same view in their own jurisdictions is a matter entirely for them.

Spycatcher"

26. Mr. Tony Banks : To ask the Attorney-General what progress he has made in identifying the total cost of the "Spycatcher" litigation.

The Solicitor-General (Sir Nicholas Lyell) : The total cost to the Government to date, excluding the contempt proceedings and officials' time, is calculated at £2,221,503.

Mr. Banks : As the Solicitor-General said, that excludes officials' time, so the figure must be that much higher. Is it not outrageous that so much British taxpayers' money should have been spent trying to suppress a book which in part told us about the treacherous activities of the security services in trying to undermine the democratically elected Government of Harold Wilson? Will the Solicitor-General assure the House that similar treacherous activities will not take place when the next Labour Government are democratically elected under my right hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Mr. Kinnock)?

The Solicitor-General : Whatever one thinks about the activities of the author, he was a former member of the security services. These cases have the very valuable result of getting a clear decision from the House of Lords, upheld in this respect by the European Court of Human Rights which took nothing from that decision, that such former members owe a lifelong duty of confidentiality.

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OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

Iraq

33. Mr. Cohen : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what additional resources will be made available to improve health care for vulnerable groups in Iraq.

The Minister for Overseas Development (Mrs. Lynda Chalker) : I have recently approved an additional allocation of over £1 million in aid for vulnerable groups in both the north and south of Iraq. Last week, I approved a further £345,000 for the British Red Cross. On 8 January I called for a high-level meeting of donor countries to respond to the United Nations latest humanitarian appeal. That has been favourably received.

Mr. Cohen : Has the Minister seen the statement made at the weekend by the Red Cross stating that without aid, the whole of Iraq faces massive starvation? Has she seen the Quakers report which states that tens of thousands of children are in jeopardy and thousands will die because of the lack of essential medicines? Is it not now time to lift the economic sanctions that are killing people, including children, in Iraq and to inject a huge amount of those essential medicines which are in short supply there?

Mrs. Chalker : First, I pay tribute to the British Red Cross and the many non-governmental organisations which have provided help in Iraq supported by money from the Government. We shall continue to support them, as my main answer to the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen) made clear. However, with regard to the hon. Gentleman's request that we should lift sanctions, I am afraid that he is way out of line. The needs of the Iraqi people can be met by the release of $1.6 billion of oil which would finance the purchase of essential humanitarian supplies to relieve that suffering. We continue to help in the meantime, and at a diplomatic level, we are working extremely hard to have Security Council resolutions 706 and 712 implemented. When that is achieved, the problems referred to by the Red Cross and the Quakers report will be substantially minimised.

Miss Emma Nicholson : In paying tribute to those excellent voluntary organisations whom the Government have grant-aided to help vulnerable groups in Iraq, does not my right hon. Friend the Minister agree that Saddam Hussein has ensured the continuing torment and lack of help for his people, particularly for the southern Shias in the marshes?

Mrs. Chalker : My hon. Friend is right. Saddam Hussein continues to ignore the needs of the Iraqi people, particularly those in the south who have had less publicity than the Kurds in the north. Both need our help, but the help that they should be given is by their own Government, by the full implementation of resolutions 706 and 712. We are doing our best to make progress in the talks so that the Iraqi people will get the benefit of the export of Iraqi oil in the near future.

Mr. Winnick : Is it not clear to the Minister that we should be concerned, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen) has stated, about the plight of the people of Iraq and the starvation that is being caused? Is it not the case that as long as Saddam Hussein rules that

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country--as long as that brutal and murderous despot continues in power--there will be absolutely no solution for people in that unhappy state?

Mrs. Chalker : The hon. Gentleman knows that I believe that the Iraqi people will be safeguarded for the long term and enable the international community to give long-term development aid to that country only when Saddam Hussein is no longer at the helm in Baghdad. It is a very serious situation. The humanitarian groups have done extremely well. Bearing in mind the £45 million which this country has given since April, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we will continue to play our part. However, their only true relief, as everybody in the House and in the country knows, is for Saddam Hussein to be replaced.

World Population Conference

34. Mr. Steen : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if the Minister for Overseas Development will attend the conference from 31 January to 1 February 1992 for European parliamentarians on action on world population, sponsored by the British parliamentary group on population and development.

Mrs. Chalker : I much regret that I will be unable to attend that conference because of my forthcoming visit to southern Africa. My noble friend the Earl of Caithness has agreed to attend in my place. My officials will play a major role in support to European action on world population. I look forward to the conclusions of the conference with considerable interest.

Mr. Steen : The House is sorry that the Minister cannot attend the conference. All European Members would have liked to pay tribute to the splendid work that she and the Government have done for overseas development. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the ever-growing problem of street children is a consequence of overpopulation? Does she consider that some new initiative is needed to stem police brutality in countries such as Brazil--where there are 10 million street children--Guatemala, Mexico and other countries? Would my right hon. Friend feel able to lead a crusade with other European countries to put pressure on the Governments of central and south America so that every child there has a home, food, clothing and education and is not allowed to fall prey to the worst excesses of human nature?

Mrs. Chalker : I agree that the situation for street children not only in Brazil and Guatemala but in certain other countries is extremely serious. That is one good reason why we have been supporting several non- governmental projects in the region and why we have made representations to presidents and other leaders about the state of children in those countries. It is difficult to provide advice on population planning in some Catholic countries, but I am pleased at the progress that we are beginning to make. The more children who are born by choice and not by chance, the better, as we said in August of last year when working our our programme.

Sir David Steel : Although it is understandable that the Minister cannot be in two places at once, will she assure the House that her noble Friend will make a strong contribution to the conference? Does she agree that some

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of our overseas development programmes have been vitiated by the rise in population in some of the countries concerned?

Mrs. Chalker : I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that my noble Friend will make a very strong statement of Government policy, even though I wish that I could do it myself. Of course the increasing population in some countries is harming the progress that they could otherwise make on development issues. However, it is good to note that because the contraception prevalence rate has increased considerably since 1985 in countries such as Bangladesh and a number of African countries, we are beginning to make more progress. By spending more resources on this matter, as I intend to do, having tripled our programme in the past 10 years, I believe that we shall make still further progress, with the help of education, too.

Sir Charles Morrison : Although I fully understand why my right hon. Friend cannot attend the conference of Parliamentarians, will she tell the House now whether the Government support the recent call by Mr. Robert McNamara for a global commission on population in preparation for the 1994 United Nations conference on population? Secondly, are the Government currently involved in giving advice or assistance to the Russian republics and to other east European republics?

Mrs. Chalker : In answer to my hon. Friend's first question, we believe that the UN conference on population in 1994 will be an important focal point and that all possible work to support it should be carried out. We have

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not yet concluded whether that work should be in the form suggested by Mr. Robert McNamara or be carried out in other ways. Nevertheless, we shall support such work.

In answer to the second part of my hon. Friend's question about population planning assistance to the former Soviet Union, although we have not been asked for such help, last week I agreed that £2 million-worth of medical aid should be spent in the republics of the former Soviet Union. That aid is already going out, starting with a specific gift that was made today in Moscow.

Mrs. Clwyd : In so far as the population of Africa, and especially that of Somalia, is clearly at risk from internal conflict and where the aid agencies cannot deliver any assistance because of that conflict, is it not time for the British Government to urge the United Nations to take a more interventionist and far stronger role in resolving those disputes?

Mrs. Chalker : Having visited homes for abandoned children in Somalia a couple of years ago, I can well understand concern not only about young children in that country, but about all its people. That was why, when meeting the United Nations new Secretary-General, Dr. Boutros Ghali, last Monday, I took the opportunity to suggest to him the need for more action in Somalia. James Jonah's visit on behalf of the secretary-general looks like producing some suggestions, but we shall continue to fund British non-governmental organisations that are providing relief in Somalia in the form of both food and medicines. We hope that there will be peace soon so that we can do still more effective work.

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