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Mr. Flynn : The Minister says that the Iraqis were close to having a bomb. I remind him that, when I pressed the Government in April 1990 to strengthen the International Atomic Energy Agency's inspections of the Iraqi nuclear programme, the Government said that they had no intention of doing any such thing, giving the reason that Saddam Hussein had signed the non-proliferation treaty. The Minister's predecessor told me that the Government had every confidence that Hussein would abide by his international obligations and not work on a nuclear weapon. The Government were fooled then : who is fooling them now?
Mr. Hogg : The hon. Gentleman would be better advised to read the evidence more carefully. He will know that the British Government led the pack in strengthening the safeguards. He will also bear in mind the fact that my predecessor, now Secretary of State for Health, had been urging the case for special inspections for some time. I would like to think, although I have not heard confirmation of this, that the hon. Gentleman supported him in that endeavour.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson) raised two points of significance, one dealing with Trident, the other with the tactical air-to-surface missile. My hon. Friend was kind enough to tell me that he had a surgery in his constituency and hoped that the House would forgive his absence later in the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood described the Trident system as flexible, mobile and a minimum deterrent. He was right on all those points, and I want to emphasise that Trident is a minimum deterrent. The Government have said that 128 warheads per Trident boat is the maximum. We shall deploy the minimum that is required, which may in certain circumstances be substantially fewer than 128 warheads. We want to be able to load the missile boats with the number that we regard as needed to ensure our security. The maximum is 128 warheads per boat, but that is not to say that that number will be carried.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood also dealt with the issue of a sub-strategic weapon. I agree that it is important to have a sub- strategic weapon, and we must soon make some decisions on the nature of such weapons. We are approaching the time when the free-fall bomb will pass its shelf life. There is a powerful argument for an air-launched missile, and my hon. Friend made it. We are entirely convinced of the need for a sub -strategic weapon, but as yet no final decisions have been made about the nature of the weapon that we will want in our arsenal.
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The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) asked 11 or 12 questions ; I could not do justice to them all now. He based many of them on an article in The ObserverMr. Hogg : Well, some of them anyway--
Mr. Hogg : Well, I heard the hon. Gentleman refer to The Observer. If I misunderstood him, I apologise. Nevertheless, I should like to reply to most of his questions in writing.
In the meantime, I would like to touch on a more general point that he raised relating to the Russians' facilities and the assistance that the United Kingdom Government and others can give the Russians. The Russians have certain facilities ; the question is whether they have enough to achieve the dismantling over a reasonably short period, and that is extremely questionable. They have two great problems--with transport and with storage. As the hon. Member for Linlithgow will have heard the Prime Minister say, we are going to send a technical team to Russia, leaving on 10 February, to explore the ways in which we can assist the Russians.
I do not pretend that we stand alone in this. Under-Secretary of State Bartholomew from the United States went with a team a few days ago and carried out an exploratory visit. In this matter, we all need to stand together ; we all have a contribution to make and it must be made collectively--
Dr. Reid : The Minister has still not said anything about non- proliferation.
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Mr. Hogg : The hon. Gentleman grumbles, but I am answering questions raised by his hon. Friends. It would have been better if the hon. Gentleman had not spoken for so long.
The hon. Member for Linlithgow was also right about nuclear scientists. There is a serious risk connected with the leakage of expertise. We need to try to assist the Russians and the Governments of the other republics to find ways of keeping their scientists within their frontiers. That is essential, and we shall work with the Russians and others to that end.
On the broader question of non-proliferation, I have not had sufficient time to cover the subject as fully as I should like, but hon. Members are the first to grumble if I do not reply to the points that they have raised, and that is what I have tried to do. For us, the core is the non- proliferation treaty.
6.59 pm
Sir Michael Neubert : This has been a helpful debate, and it would assist the House if we reached a decision on the question. Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House, recognising the potential dangers of the rapidly changing world order, welcomes the recent proposals for substantial reductions in nuclear weaponry, the growing support for the non-proliferation treaty and progress in the implementation of the UN Security Council Resolutions concerning the dismantling of Iraqi nuclear, chemical and biological capabilities ; urges the Government to play their full part in helping the relevant authorities in the Commonwealth of Independent States to dismantle their nuclear devices, to safeguard their nuclear components and to discourage the proliferation of nuclear expertise ; and believes it is of the first importance that Britain retains an effective and credible minimum nuclear deterrent as security in a world where there remain many sources of instability.
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Overseas Development and Co-operation
7 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd) : I beg to move That the draft Caribbean Development Bank (Further Payments) Order 1992, which was laid before this House on 13th January, be approved. I understand that it will be for the convenience of the House if we also consider the draft African Development Fund (Sixth Replenishment) Order 1992.
I bring to the House the apologies of my right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development, who was tonight to have been in Angola. However, on her way to Angola she caught an ear infection when in Zimbabwe and had to curtail her visit and return home. She is sorry that she cannot be here, but I am confident that she will be well and back in the House soon.
The purpose of these orders is to authorise further payments to the replenishments to the African development fund and the special development fund of the Caribbean Development bank. In common with similar international financial institutions, the banks have two main lending arms : the bank itself, which borrows in the financial markets for on-lending to its regional members ; and the funds, which lend at concessional rates. These are sometimes referred to as the "hard" and "soft" windows respectively. These draft orders authorise payments for the "soft" windows. The United Kingdom was a founder member of the African development fund, established in 1973. Its purpose is to contribute to the economic development and social progress of its regional members.
Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington) : How does the Minister know whether funds that are allocated under the "soft" window are allocated to projects that should be funded through that window rather than through the other one?
Mr. Lennox-Boyd : I shall deal with that point at greater length in my winding-up speech. For the Caribbean development fund we have an executive who is a board member and for the African development fund we share with three other countries, which include Germany and the Netherlands, a representative who would be privy to these decisions, and we are able to review the situation in the light of those appointments.
The fund is part of the African Development bank group and lends on concessional terms. Its resources are replenished every three years with contributions agreed through a process of multilateral negotiation with donor Governments. These negotiations provide the opportunity for donors to review past performance and agree policy directions for the future, as well as agreeing an overall target for the replenishment and relative burden- sharing among donors. Negotiations on the sixth replenishment of the fund began in June 1990, and were concluded last year. The replenishment that we are discussing will cover commitments made over the period 1991-93. The agreed replenishment total was 2.65 billion fund units of account, or approximately £1.8 billion. This represented a modest increase in real terms over the fifth replenishment. The United Kingdom increased its share from 3.55 to 4 per cent., a total full commitment of, in today's money, £71.9 million. This sum will be paid in
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three equal instalments in the form of non- interest bearing promissory notes which will be encashed over a number of years. A report was drawn up which set out understandings on policy issues which will serve as guidelines for the management of the fund over the next three years. In particular, it was agreed that allocation of resources should be based to a much greater extent than in the past on the performance of borrowing countries. Donors emphasised that, given the demands on concessional resources, it was important to ensure that these are allocated to programmes and projects where they will be used most effectively. Borrowing countries which are pursuing sound economic policies, which are making efforts to reduce poverty and achieve growth with equity, or which are committed to development which is sustainable both in environmental or other terms are those on which the fund should be concentrating its efforts.With reference to economic management, donors agreed that the bulk of the funds resources should go either to countries implementing adjustment programmes supported by the International Monetary Fund or World bank, especially within the umbrella of the World bank's special programme of assistance for Africa, or to those countries with a sound policy framework.
Sound economic management is an essential pre-requisite for renewed growth and development in Africa. We hope that the greater weight given to performance in fund operations will act as a spur to those countries that have not yet begun the process of economic reform to do so as quickly as possible.
Good government is also vital if aid is to provide sustainable development. This includes not just sound economic policies but competent administration, democratically accountable institutions and respect for the rule of law. We emphasised the importance of these points during the sixth replenishment negotiations, and we are encouraged by the extent to which the African Development bank is lending its weight to promoting this concept in its dialogue with borrowing countries.
A second major policy theme in the negotiations was that of poverty alleviation. The obvious lesson that a sustainable reduction in poverty is not possible without economic growth was underlined. So, too, was the need to ensure that the poor get a bigger slice of the benefits of growth, and the need for direct help to the poorest, especially in the provision of basic health and primary education. The bank has set up a task force to prepare a strategy on poverty reduction.
The bank also agreed to initiate work on population problems. Population growth rates in sub-Saharan Africa are among the highest of any region of the developing world. They have reached a rate of 3 per cent. a year. This means that population will double in 25 years, with clear implications for poverty reduction efforts, and of course, pressure on social infrastructure and the environment.
The bank's performance on environmental issues has been criticised in this House and elsewhere. Management has finalised an environmental policy and is now implementing operational guidelines. The bank is also preparing a forestry sector policy paper, and has undertaken to consult with interested non-governmental organisations before this is finalised. Donors asked that environmental impact assessments be provided for all
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projects which could have a significant effect on the environment and urged the bank to strengthen its professional staffing in this area as quickly as possible.These measures taken together should considerably enhance the quality of assistance provided by the fund to its low-income borrowers. The majority of these countries are classified as moderately or severely indebted countries. They cannot afford to borrow on commercial terms and add to their crippling burden of debt.
Their debt problems, of course, are being addressed in other ways. The Government have consistently taken the lead in promoting concerted debt relief measures for those poorest countries which owe most of their debts to Governments. I am delighted, as the House will also be, that in mid- December we successfully achieved consensus in the Paris Club to grant improved debt relief to the poorest, most heavily indebted countries. Under these new terms, up to 50 per cent. of eligible debt service will be written off. This important advance is, of course, a direct result of proposals made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, in 1990. The new arrangements represent a good start to implementation of the Trinidad terms, and we shall continue to press for improvements in the terms offered, along the lines of my right hon. Friend's original proposals.
I should now like to turn to the second order. The Caribbean Development bank was established in 1969 and lends only to the Commonwealth Caribbean. There are 17 borrowing member countries, of which five are dependent territories. The United Kingdom and Canada were the two non-regional founding members. For many years the special development fund--the "soft" window--was funded by a variety of voluntary contributions, each with its own conditions attached. The procedure was simplified in 1984 when a unified fund was established.
The main support for the special development fund comes from the non- regional members, whose numbers expanded in the late 1980s to include France, Italy and Germany. Negotiations for the third replenishment were concluded in May last year. The total agreed was $118 million--more than £62 million. That figure may increase slightly as further pledges are received. The United Kingdom's share is £10.6 million--about 17 per cent. of the total. The United Kingdom's share of the second replenishment was £9.3 million, so there has been a significant increase. The replenishment will cover the period 1992-95, and, as with the African development fund, our contributions will be paid by promissory note. We see the Caribbean Development bank as playing a key role in channelling development assistance to the region.
The CDB operates on a much smaller scale than the African Development bank. The island communities that borrow from it are for the most part small and rely on one or two commodities only, and tourism, and are therefore exceptionally vulnerable to market forces. Emphasis in its programme is given to the development of human resources, through education schemes-- secondary, technical, vocational, and teacher training in some cases--in co -operation with the World bank. The CDB is a focal point for skilled manpower within the region, and is manned entirely by people from the Caribbean. It also supports projects to diversify agriculture to reduce the dependence on export crops.
Attention is given to the establishment of new enterprises, and the bank recently expanded its lending to
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the private sector further to encourage local initiatives. The Caribbean islands are in a hurricane belt and are subject to regular storms and severe flooding. To help reduce the effects of tidal waves and regular erosion of the coastline, the bank supports schemes to strengthen coastal sea defences. The Caribbean Development bank is assisting in the economic recovery programme for Guyana. Those are examples of practical ways of helping the small island communities, five of which are still British dependent territories. The special development fund concentrates on the most vulnerable parts of those communities. The third replenishment will enable the fund to continue to provide valuable support to those small but valued members of the Commonwealth.The funds to be authorised under the two orders thus represent a significant contribution to our efforts to help Africa and the Caribbean. I commend them both to the House.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker) : As the Minister has said, it is in order for motions Nos. 4 and 5 to be debated together. 7.14 pm
Mrs. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) : I want my comments on the role of the African development fund and the Caribbean Development bank to be understood as being in the context of the role of the British Government vis-a-vis the development challenges facing the African continent.
This debate is taking place at a crucial time. The Minister mentioned two particular initiatives that he thought were most important. The first of these is the Prime Minister's Commonwealth debt initiative. Although we have always welcomed this, it must be put in the context of the fact that it is no compensation at all for the Conservative Government's aid cuts. Although debt relief for the poorest countries is a step forward, it is absolutely no substitute for aid. While the Government have been prepared to cancel debts--many of which were not being serviced anyway--they have cut aid, as a percentage of gross national product, to the lowest level on record : 0.27 per cent. last year, compared with 0.51 per cent. in 1979 under the last Labour Government. In 1979, under Labour, Britain's contribution as a percentage of GNP was the second highest in the group of seven richest countries ; now Britain's contribution is the second lowest. While the Governments of African countries may be paying out a little less in debt servicing, they are no better off if less is coming in by way of aid.
The third world has lost £10 billion because of cutbacks in aid as a percentage of GNP from the 1979 level under Labour, which was 20 times the maximum estimated debt relief under the present Government's new scheme. The Prime Minister's initiative is too limited, and Britain has failed to secure the agreement of its international partners, especially the United States of America, on the issue. The initiative applies only to country-to- country bilateral debt ; it does not apply to amounts owed to the international institutions. In fact, the Government actually blocked a proposal that debt to the European Community be written off. A Labour Government would press for such agreements.
The initiative does not apply to amounts owed to the commercial banks. The Government have a hands-off approach to the commercial banks, while granting them
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large amounts of tax relief in respect of these debts. During the Committee stage of the Finance Bill of 1991 Labour pressed for the withdrawal of this tax relief if banks did not write off the debts. The initiative applies to only a small group of the poorest countries. Other very poor countries, such as Ethiopia, are not included. Many millions in Africa still face famine. Only this week the United Nations appealed for an extra $621.6 million for emergency operations in the Horn of Africa. The total pledged by donors so far is only three quarters of what is needed.Long-term poverty is also on the increase. In a relatively optimistic projection the World bank estimates that, on the basis of present trends, the number of people in Africa living in absolute poverty will rise from the present 180 million to 265 million in the year 2000. In that time the continent's share of the world's poorest people will double--rising from 16 per cent. to 32 per cent. Before the Minister congratulates the Prime Minister again, perhaps he will bear those figures in mind.
The Minister stressed also the importance of population policies, but in a parliamentary answer that I received today, the Government admit to massive cuts in funding to key United Nation agencies. The United Kingdom's 1990 contribution to the United Nations Fund for Population Activities, for example, was cut by 65 per cent. between 1979 and 1990. While the Prime Minister espouses the Government's support for the United Nations, in reality they have savaged Britain's contribution to key United Nation agencies with proven track records. The Minister ought to review the figures before stressing the importance of policy initiatives that the Government have been particularly tardy in supporting with cash.
As we debate tonight, 23 million people's lives are at risk in the Horn of Africa. The urgent appeal to the international community has yet to find receptive ears. The intensifying of internal conflict, breakdown of law and order in parts of the region, massive population movements, and continuing drought-induced famine in some areas are taking their toll.
The eye of the storm must be Somalia. The Prime Minister's fine words this afternoon about the United Nation's newly enhanced role as peacemaker in the new world order must be tested against Somalia's pressing case. Many Somalians who for months looked to Britain, with all her historic links with that country, to take a leading role in the peace process were disappointed with the Government's reluctance and unimpressive response. Although the recent United Nation resolution is a welcome sign of a vigorous approach, I am sorry that it did not feature more prominently at the recent summit. The appalling suffering of the people of Somalia and the impact that it is having across the region must be a top priority for the United Nations. The world's attention has focused on the needs of the Commonwealth of Independent States--the former Soviet Union. I do not deny the necessity for action there, but Africa's desperate needs have not gone away. The imperative for action is all the greater because so many opportunities exist among the gloom. In some areas, the problems to which the United Nations Secretary-General is pointing are, with cruel irony, caused by improvements to security and good
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government--such as that seen in Ethiopia-- that are allowing people to return to their homes. It would be an even greater tragedy if support were denied to help the thousands of refugees who are returning to their homelands after years of war and exile. The immediate crisis is being played out against the background of Africa's prolonged economic crisis. According to the World bank, incomes per head in sub-Saharan Africa fell by 2.2 per cent. a year between 1980 and 1989. Excluding those in oil-rich Nigeria, most Africans are by that measure worse off today than in 1965. There have been enormous external economic pressures on the continent. A steady decline in Africa's terms of trade in the 1970s was severely compounded by a drastic fall in the purchasing power of the country's exports of more than 40 per cent. between 1980 and 1986. Debt problems have mounted. More than one fifth of Africa's export earnings are swallowed up in debt servicing. That level would be much higher were it not for constant rescheduling and the continuing build-up of arrears.Against that background, there is in parts of Africa clear evidence that long-term malnutrition is on the increase, while average lifespans and primary school enrolment levels are decreasing. Internal factors, including autocratic government and internal mismanagement, play a significant part. Nevertheless, there has in recent years been a remarkable, continuing trend towards economic reform and democracy. Great opportunities are opening up in Africa--as great in scale in many ways as those that exist in the former Soviet Union.
However, Africa cannot do it alone. Many African Governments feel a sense of betrayal that, having implemented the painful reforms advocated by rich countries, they are not being supported. Britain must play a much fuller part in tackling the African crisis and building on the potential offered by reform. We must provide emergency relief. We are watching the Government closely to see whether their high-minded talk of support for the United Nations manifests itself in a major response to the United Nations Secretary-General's appeal for the Horn of Africa.
We must support also the process of recovery. We are shocked by the Government's refusal to support the second phase of the UN's special programme for Africa. Despite the widely acknowledged success of the first phase in channelling support to small farmers to help them recover from famine, in the urgent task of growing more food, and improve the incomes of the rural poor--and the programme's good work and accumulated experience-- the Government are prepared to see it die. They seem prepared to allow the support of other donors to go to waste by not making a United Kingdom contribution.
A Labour Government will not be content to allow that to continue happening to that important and crucial fund. We believe that Britain should join other donors who have said that they are prepared to contribute their share to ensure the special programme's continuation, provided that others do the same.
Britain must respond to the mood of reform and extend support for long-term economic development in the region. I refer to the specific role of the African development fund. We support the distinctive and positive contribution made by the African Development bank, and that of the fund in particular under the bank's energetic presidency. We welcome the importance attached to agriculture, which is the top priority for economic
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development in Africa, and the promise made at the last replenishment to devote more resources to poverty-reduction programmes and those that benefit women.The bank does not have a faultless record. There are concerns over whether it is keeping its environmental pledges, and we urge it to reconsider whether it is the appropriate instrument for structural adjustment lending. However, the fund's overall contribution has been increasingly positive, and it deserves more support than Britain has given.
In the past, scepticism was expressed about the role of the African Development bank by comparison with other regional development banks--but that has, rightly, faded. One of the most important reasons for supporting the bank is its role as a distinctly Africa-based body.
One of Africa's key needs is to build up its own development institutions, and the African Development bank has made significant advances in that regard in recent years. Those advances are especially important given the eagerly awaited movement to a fully democratic South Africa which, we hope, will take place in the near future. If South Africa played an active role in the ADB--as we hope that it will--it would do a good deal, in the next decade, to help South Africa's reintegration with other African economies, and also to help it play a positive role in the development of the rest of southern Africa and that of the continent as a whole.
Despite the movement by African Governments towards reform, British support of Africa--including its funding of the African development fund--has, in our view, been niggardly. Notwithstanding Britain's extensive links with Africa, its support for the continent is quite a long way behind that of our international partners. Perhaps the Minister will confirm what my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) was told recently by the Minister for Overseas Development ; we are sorry to hear that the right hon. Lady is unwell, and hope that she will soon return to the House. According to the right hon. Lady, United Kingdom funding for Africa is half that of our G7 partners Germany, Italy, Japan and the United States, and less than a fifth of that provided by France.
The current, sixth replenishment of the fund represents only a 17 per cent. increase over the previous 50 per cent. replenishment. That is barely enough to keep pace with inflation. Within that meagre replenishment, Britain's contribution has been very poor. According to the most recent statement of total subscriptions available from the ADB, Britain's contribution is less than that of any other G7 country. It is even less than Sweden's contribution, and equal to that of Norway. Britain simply is not pulling its weight. Although I welcome the fact that the United Kingdom is contributing to the fund, this is a very small slice of a modestly sized cake. It does not do justice to the major economic and political changes that are now being undertaken by African Governments. Must we be confronted yet again with images of mass starvation before Britain makes more effort to act now on long-term investments to prevent the famines of the future ? What we need now is action to improve north-south terms of trade, reduce debts, and increase aid--I stress that point, and I do not think that the Minister will be able to defend the Government's position and protect the world's environments.
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Let me say a word about the Caribbean Development bank. Although the poverty and economic decline in the Caribbean are not of the same magnitude as those in Africa, there are many parallels between the two regions, in regard to both problems and opportunities. Debt problems in the Caribbean remain considerable, and--as in Africa--relate primarily to official debt, including debts to multilateral institutions. The decline in trade has affected a number of Caribbean commodities, such as bauxite, although possibly less severely than in Africa. At recent meetings with representatives of sister Caribbean parties, I, as a representative of the British Labour party, was able to hear at first hand both about the economic pressures and about the development of democratic institutions in the regions.Will the Minister tell us the extent of our support for three areas of major importance to the Caribbean? First, what support does the bank give to the development of interregional trade? I am glad to see that that subject is back on the Caribbean agenda. Secondly, how is the bank seeking to foster diversification programmes to help countries reduce their over- reliance on a single crop commodity? Thirdly, what programmes is it supporting to bring about food security in Caribbean nations that remain heavily reliant on the expensive import of basic foods?
Although Africa's emergency needs will continue throughout the current year and the rest of the decade, it should be an increasing priority for the north to support the positive changes that are sweeping the continent. More resources are needed now to aid recovery and development. In countries such as Ethiopia and Angola, which have seen a dramatic end to decades of civil war, support is needed to resettle displaced people, demobilise soldiers, rebuild shattered societies and economies and help safeguard fledgling democracies. Those aims are as important as assisting the emerging democracies in the former Soviet Union and central and eastern Europe with massive aid and debt relief, if not more important. The equally fundamental changes sweeping Africa have not been rewarded to anything like the same extent--although Africa's needs are so much greater.
7.36 pm
Sir Russell Johnston (Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber) : The orders are not contentious in principle ; they are open to criticism only in terms of degree, and of the extent to which the Government are following up their rhetoric with realistic contributions to those in need. The hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) has just been telling us about that.
In the case of Africa--to which I shall confine my remarks--linking aid with the development of democracy, the pursuance of better-balanced economic policies, the evolution of effective administration, the spread of help to the poor in particular, the encouragement of population control and an emphasis on the environment is desirable. Such a shift of linkage and emphasis has, after all, been under way for some time, and has wide support in other countries and on both sides of the House.
Although I support the thrust of the policy, I must repeat our view that what is being done in Africa--particularly in sub-Saharan Africa--still falls far short of what we should be doing. Not only are the communities
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concerned starting off in a pretty terrible position ; they have now been even more gravely affected by the world recession and the Gulf war.I agree with what the hon. Member for Cynon Valley said about the reduction in the British aid contribution as a proportion of gross national product over the period--getting on for 13 years--since the Conservatives came to office. I hope that positive changes in the functioning and prospects of the United Nations--which we have discussed a good deal today in other connections--will allow a stemming of the flood of arms into the African continent which has caused so much carnage. I appreciate that that does not arise directly from the motion, but it is part of the background, and I hope that the Government will use all their influence to staunch that flood.
Like the hon. Member for Cynon Valley, my party supports the work done by the African development fund, and feels ashamed to compare our contribution with that of other countries of comparable size and economic capacity. I shall not repeat the figures given by the hon. Lady, but it is in no way admirable that we should give one fifth of France's contribution, and one half of Italy's. The orders provide for further United Kingdom contributions towards two funds that enable much valuable work to be undertaken. We should, however, be doing far more.
7.39 pm
Mr. Derek Enright (Hemsworth) : I apologise to the Minister for not being here at the beginning of the debate. Unfortunately, as a new boy, I believed what my superiors told me--that the debate would not start until later. I was in the middle of my bacon and eggs when I saw on the Annunciator that the Minister was speaking. [ Hon. Members :-- "Ah!"] I left them!
I intend to consider this question from a slightly different angle. For five years I spoke for the British Labour group in the European Parliament on overseas development. For over two years I worked in west Africa, as the Commission's delegate in Guinea-Bissau. I agree entirely with all the ideas that my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) has just put forward, but I shall consider all those matters, too, from a slightly different angle.
There are some practicalities that need to be considered in terms of the cohesion of programmes. That is much more true of Africa than it is of the Caribbean. European Community aid, bilateral aid, United Nations aid and Arab aid, all in the form of projects and programmes, is being given without any attempt being made to ensure that all those projects and programmes complement one another. The European Community's programmes often contradict European development fund programmes in Africa, with the result that they are less effective than they might otherwise be. We need urgently to find a mechanism to unify the programmes and make them more positive.
In theory, the programmes are co-ordinated by the United Nations development programme, but in practice that does not happen. I should be grateful if the Minister could assure us that the Government are working towards creating an alliance in Africa rather than pursuing a policy of rivalry with other countries. That would lead to our programmes being much more cost effective.
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In many cases we are destroying the countries that we attempt to assist when providing industrial aid. I think of Tanzania's fishing fleet. The European Community was responsible for financing that fleet of about 40 boats. Almost all them cannot be used, not because the people are terribly at fault but because the fleet was provided with 12 different types of engines and hundreds of different types of screws. Not even this country can boast the technology that would be required to repair and make good all that goes wrong. It is imposssible to gut one ship for the sake of another.I think in particular of Guinea-Bissau's electrical generating plant. When I first went there it was almost completely out of order. We were lucky to have one hour of electricity a day, and that was mainly in the middle of the night. The problem was mainly due to the many kinds of generator. There was a splendid British generator, but there were also French, German, Russian and Japanese generators, which led to disaster.
Guinea-Bissau has not been independent of Portugal for very long. At the time of independence it had only four graduates and few people had been trained in technology. The people were mainly concerned with rural matters, but they had to cope with sophisticated technology and keep it going. They could not do it. The amount of hard currency that had to be spent on keeping it going could not be sustained. A good feature of the recent writing off of debt is that Guinea-Bissau gained considerable benefit from it.
Guinea-Bissau is moving towards a multi-party system. Assistance is being provided by the United States of America. It is providing money and specialist aid to help Guinea-Bissau to convert to a multi-party system. In the particular circumstances there, I am not altogether convinced that it is wise for Guinea-Bissau to move towards a multi-party system. Parties split along tribal lines ; splits are not the result of genuine ideological differences. However, the president has determined that there shall be a multi-party system and he has thrown his full weight behind it. He has ensured that in this case party splits will not start off as tribe versus tribe. A great deal of assistance, from wherever it can be obtained, is required. It would not be expensive. Her Majesty's Government could provide very effective help. I ask the Minister to consider that with great care. I echo what my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley said about the difficulties that surround dependence upon a monoculture in the Caribbean. The West Indies is being hit badly by the enormous increase in the production of sugar beet in the United Kingdom. A realistic cane sugar regime is needed. Cane sugar is the life blood of employment and society in the Caribbean. It is a plant which grows well there and it can stand up to all the vagaries of the weather. I beseech the Government to consider that question when looking at trading regimes and the common agricultural policy regimes. Not least--I am sure that this will be very close to the Minister's heart--I ask him to consider the rum regime. [Interruption.] Rum is included in the protocol to the Lome convention, but it is very difficult to import rum into France. The French protect imports of their own white rum from their overseas territories. It is essential to look towards the next Lome convention and the provision of a better protocol for rum. I am sure that the Minister agrees that rum is a splendid product. It provides employment for
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a great many people. If they were able to increase their rum exports, they would also increase the amount of hard currency that they need.7.47 pm
Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow) : One of the strengths of the House of Commons is its enormous wealth of personal experience. My hon. Friend the Member for Hemsworth (Mr. Enright) has personal experience and also a much rarer quality in the House of Commons--fresh personal experience. All too often our personal experience is far too dated to be useful. My hon. Friend the Member for Hemsworth speaks with fresh personal experience, having held a position of responsibility within the Community. Some of us, for all sorts of reasons, are glad that he has become our colleague in the House of Commons--not least because of his recent personal experience in Africa.
When I was a member of the indirectly elected Parliament I had the good fortune to go to Lome to attend one of the African, Caribbean and Pacific countries functions. I was greatly moved by the proceedings and thought that it was one of the most worthwhile events that the Community had staged. At that time Claude Cheysson--a man of drive and imagination--was the Commissioner with responsibility for these matters. Whatever criticisms may have been made of his performance in other jobs, he was a great Commissioner who succeeded in achieving much.
I apologise to the House for speaking twice in a day, having spoken in the nuclear debate. I was chosen by Mr. Speaker to lead a parliamentary delegation to Zaire in November 1990. I should like to ask the Minister a few questions about that torn and striven country. Zaire has 47 per cent. of the remaining African rain forest. The Minister receives reports from our excellent ambassador, Roger Westbrook. A lot is said about the Foreign Office not doing this or not being interested in that, but Roger Westbrook should receive full credit for having the initiative to see people who were interested in rain forests. In the course of a busy schedule, he had breakfast at Ghillean Prance in Kew and was briefed on rain forest matters in Africa by the director of Kew and his wife, who is a distinguished botanist. I give good to any diplomat who can do that.
In the chaos that is now Zaire, because of the civil war, what sensible measures can we take to protect its flora and fauna and its vast timber resources? My personal reflection during a trip that was truncated by the requirement of the Whips to return early was that Zaire varied enormously from province to province and that some of its provincial governors were men of considerable quality who were trying to do something in places such as East Kasai. Since so much of the African rain forest is in Zaire, what constructive proposals can we make for francophone Africa?
What is the Government's policy on help for francophone Africa? It might be said that because of historical ties we owe our allegiance to Tanzania, Malawi, the Sudan, Nigeria, Ghana and other African countries with which we have particularly close links. That could be an easy way out of doing nothing about francophone Africa. I and my colleagues, the hon. Members for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) and for Wansdyke (Mr. Aspinwall) and my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Cummings), formed the strong impression that
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people in positions of importance in Kinshasa desperately wanted connections with European countries other than France and Belgium. They understandably wanted links with members of the Community who were not former colonial powers. If resources allow, there is a strong argument for our becoming more involved with francophone Africa and for not taking the line of leaving it to the French. Last week I was invited to the inaugural meeting of the tropical forest resource group at Kew. I was extremely impressed by David Attenborough's presentation on the importance of water and his study of such sciences as limnology. What is the Government's policy on the acute water situation in much of Africa? When David Attenborough and others talk about the need for a world policy on water, everybody nods his head sagely and says, "Yes, we must have it" ; but what is being done? That is a matter that concerns the Edinburgh Centre for Tropical Forests.In addition, there is the acute problem of the loss of top soil and the use of fire wood as a main fuel. It may sound extraordinary to say it, but there is a strong argument for the Brazilian example of constructing nuclear power stations, which we hope will work one day, to save wood from the Mato Grosso and possibly from the rain forests.
In discussions on the rain forests, Jeff Burley, head of the Oxford forestry institute, pointed out that far too little had been said about saving the dry forest. Is there a policy on helping the dry forest in Africa? The figures given were 58 per cent. dry forest and 42 per cent. rain forest. The dry forest is absolutely enormous and is of considerable importance in stricken areas such as the Sudan, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hemsworth knows so well.
A paper was given by Dr. Dransfield on the economic possibilities for rattan. I have previously raised the question of help for rattan growing in Ghana and the Ivory Coast. According to the presentation that was made last week at Kew, there is an enormous potential market for rattan products, and rattan meets every criteria of being sustainable. Can we offer any specific encouragement for rattan? The Minister has expert advisers in the Box who will be able to answer such questions off the top of their heads, and I know that the Whip and his Parliamentary Private Secretary are very athletic in going to the Official Box.
My last question was raised at the Kew seminar by Dr. Colin Ogborne. It concerns optical character recognition and the information that can now be stored on disks to avoid repeating information that could be so valuable in the tropical forest. I know that that subject is dear to the heart of my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) and our mutual friend Professor Howell of the Overseas Development Institute. That is my last question to arise out of Kew.
I want to engage the Minister's attention on another subject about which I feel very strongly. This afternoon I asked the Prime Minister a simple, straight, one-sentence question and I was shocked by his reply. I believe that my shock was shared by my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) because he commented on it. The question was whether the Prime Minister would rule out United Nations military action against Libya. His answer came as quick as a flash--a decisive "No, Sir".
This is not the place to repeat my Adjournment debate of the other night about Lockerbie, but I wish to make one
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comment. Lockerbie was a tragedy of horrendous proportions. The police in my area had to help to clear it up and I went to see it. I do not in any way underestimate the tragedy, but the view of the Scottish police about Syria and Iran is wholly different from what the Foreign Secretary is saying.
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