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Mr. Speaker : We now come to new clause 21.
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Mr. Dalyell : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. There has been a misunderstanding about new clause 21, which some of us wish to ask questions about.
Mr. Speaker : If the Front-Bench spokesman does not move it, it is not moved.
Mrs. Fyfe : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I believe that my hon. Friend the Member for Clydebank and Milngavie (Mr. Worthington) inadvertently withdrew new clause 21.
Mr. Worthington : It might have been a misunderstanding.
Mr. Speaker : It might have been, but, unhappily, we have moved on now. We cannot go back.
Clause 1
Duty of Secretary of State to secure provision of further education
Amendment made : No. 61 in page 2, line 4, at end add
( ) The Secretary of State shall, as soon as is practicable after the end of each calendar year, prepare a report as to the discharge of his duties under this Part of this Act ; and he shall lay a copy of each such report before each House of Parliament.'.-- [Mr. Michael Forsyth.]
Clause 6
Further education to which section
1 applies-- Amendment made : No. 16, in page 4, line 9, leave out from difficulty' to end of line 10.-- [Mr. Michael Forsyth.]
Mr. Michael Forsyth : I beg to move amendment No. 17, in page 4, line 11, at end insert--
( ) is designed to assist persons whose first language is not English to achieve any level of competence in English language ;'. The amendment meets an undertaking given to the Committee. It will place within the Secretary of State's duty for further education a provision that is designed to assist those whose first language is not English and who need to improve their competency in English. This will be of particular benefit in meeting the needs of ethnic minorities and will enable them to play a full part in the economic and social life of our community.
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. Speaker : We now come to amendment No. 65, with which it will be convenient to take Government amendments Nos. 18, and 23 to 25.
Mr. Worthington : Amendment No. 65 is subsumed in later Government proposals. I therefore do not wish to move the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment made : No. 18, in page 4, line 16, at end insert-- ( ) An order shall not be made under subsection (2) above unless the Secretary of State has consulted--
(a) such persons or organisations appearing to him to be representative of boards of management and education authorities ; and
(b) such other persons,
as appear to him to be appropriate as to the amendments proposed to be made by the order.'-- [Mr. Michael Forsyth.]
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Clause 7
First transfer of colleges
Mr. Michael Forsyth : I beg to move amendment No. 19, in page 4, line 36, at end insert--
( ) Nothing in subsection (3) above shall require the disclosure of any information in contravention of any provision contained in any enactment (including an enactment contained in a subordinate instrument) restricting or prohibiting the disclosure of such information.'.
Mr. Speaker : With this, it will be convenient to consider amendment No. 60.
Mr. Forsyth : The amendment meets an undertaking given to the Committee. It makes clear, by express qualification, that the requirement on education authorities to provide information to boards of management does not overrule other statutory provisions that prohibit or restrict such disclosure. I fully understand the sensitivity of, for example, records of needs where disclosure is restricted by section 60(4) of the Education (Scotland) Act 1980 and by the Education (Record of Needs) Regulations 1982.
Mrs. Margaret Ewing : As the hon. Member who tabled amendment No. 60 and raised the issue in Committee, I am most grateful to the Minister for taking my concerns on board. It has been a simple move to include further education colleges in the provision of the Education (Record of Needs) Regulations 1982 and I am sure that it will be appreciated by all concerned, including the organisations that work with people with special needs. I therefore welcome the move.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8
Boards of management
Amendments made : No. 20, in page 5, line 14, after nature' insert
(including waiving or granting remission of fees)'
No. 21, in page 5, line 24, leave out disabled students and staff' and insert
students who have learning difficulties and disabled staff'. No. 22, in page 6, line 10, leave out from difficulties' to end of line 11.
No. 23, in page 6, line 32, at end insert--
( ) An order shall not be made under subsection (8) above unless the Secretary of State has consulted such persons or organisations appearing to him to be representative of boards of management and such other persons as appear to him to be appropriate as to the amendments proposed to be made by the order.'.-- [Mr. Michael Forsyth.]
Clause 11
Transfer of staff
Amendment made : No. 24, in page 8, line 32, at end insert-- ( ) Where the Secretary of State proposes to make a direction in terms of subsection (2) above he shall consult
(a) in the case of a direction designating a person, that person ; and
(b) in the case of a direction designating a class or description of persons, such persons as appear to the Secretary of State to be representative of the class or description of persons,
as to the proposed designation.'.-- [Mr. Michael Forsyth.]
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Clause 13
Surpluses and deficits
Amendment made : No. 25, in page 11, line 41, at end insert-- ( ) Before making a direction under subsection (1) above as to the date by which an education authority and a board of management are to arrive at a written agreement, the Secretary of State shall consult the education authority and the board of management.'.-- [Mr. Michael Forsyth.]
Clause 14
Disposal of certain property
Amendment made : No. 26, in page 12, line 46, after first of' insert or any consideration for'-- [Mr. Michael Forsyth.]
Clause 18
Mismanagement by boards
Amendment made : No. 27, in page 14, line 34, leave out from of' to second this' in line 35 and insert
sub-paragraphs (b), (c) and (d) of paragraph 3(2) of Schedule 1 to'.-- [Mr. Michael Forsyth.]
Clause 21
Information as to provision of further education
Amendments made : No. 28, in page 16, line 30, at end insert (including students with learning difficulties).'
No. 83, in page 16, line 33, leave out and'.
No. 29, in page 16, line 34, at end insert
and
( ) the facilities provided or proposed to be provided for students of the college who have learning difficulties and disabled staff of the college.'.
No. 30, in page 16, line 45, at end insert
without the prior consent, given in writing, of such student'-- [Mr. Michael Forsyth.]
Clause 22
Control of disposal of certain land etc.
Amendments made : No. 31, in page 17, line 4, leave out or any interest in land'.
No. 32, in page 17, line 18, leave out or interest in land'. No. 33, in page 17, line 22, leave out or interest in land'-- [Mr. Lang.]
Clause 25
Disposals and contracts without consent
Amendments made : No. 34, in page 19, line 7, leave out or interest in land'.
No. 35, in page 19, line 10, leave out or interest in land'. No. 36, in page 19, line 12, leave out
or an interest in land'.
No. 37, in page 19, line 36, leave out
or an interest in land'.
No. 38, in page 19, line 41, after acquisition', insert of land'.
No. 39, in page 19, line 41, leave out from section' to the' in line 42.
No. 40, in page 20, line 1, leave out
or an interest in land'.
No. 41, in page 20, line 15, leave out
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or an interest in land'.-- [Mr. Lang]Clause 26
Recovery of loss and damages.
Amendments made : No. 42, in page 20, line 31, leave out "or interest in land'.
No. 43, in page 20, line 34, leave out or interest in land'. No. 44, in page 20, line 35, leave out or interest in land'-- [Mr. Michael Forsyth.]
Clause 28
Transitional provisions as regards college councils
Amendment made : No. 45, in page 22, line 23, leave out from from' to end of the line and insert
the date prescribed in pursuance of subsection (3) above'.-- [Mr. Michael Forsyth.]
Clause 30
Interpretation of Part I
Amendments made : No. 46, in page 23, line 35, leave out or any interest in land'.
No. 47, in page 23, line 43, at end insert--
"land" includes, without prejudice to the meaning given to it by Schedule 1 to the Interpretation Act 1978, an interest in land within the meaning of this section.'.
No. 48, in page 23, line 43, at end insert--
( ) Any reference in this Part of this Act to a person who has a learning difficulty shall be construed in accordance with section 1(4) of this Act.'.-- [Mr. Michael Forsyth.]
Clause 33
Assessment of quality of education provided by institutions
Amendment made : No. 2, in page 25, line 7, after shall' insert after consultation with such organisations as appear to the Council to be representative of institutions within the higher education sector'.-- [Mr. Michael Forsyth.]
Amendment proposed : No. 79, in page 25, line 16, at end insert and in performing their functions under this subsection the Council shall have regard to such provision as is made as regards the assessment of the quality of education provided in institutions within the higher education sector in England and Wales in pursuance of section 68(1)(a) of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 (assessment of the quality of education provided by institutions in England and Wales).'.-- [Mr. Michael Forsyth.]
Mr. Speaker : With this, we will take Government amendments 3 to 5.
Mr. Worthington : We particularly welcome Government amendment No. 3. We stress the importance of the quality assessment committee having an element of independence, and the proposal that at least half the members of the quality assessment committee should not be on the funding council meets our requirements. Therefore, we thank the Government for their amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. Dalyell : I beg to move amendment No. 87, in line 16 at end insert--
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(c) establish a further committee, to be known as the "Medical Standards Committtee", with the function of giving them advice on the quality of medical education and research.'.Mr. Speaker : With this it will be convenient to take amendment No. 88, in line 16 at end insert--
(3) The Medical Standards Committee shall liaise as appropriate with equivalent bodies in England and Wales, with a view to ensuring the uniformity of medical standards throughout the United Kingdom.'.
Mr. Dalyell : The case is most succinctly put by the dean of the faculty of medicine in the university of Edinburgh.
It being Ten o'clock, further consideration of the Bill stood adjourned.
Business of the House
Ordered,
That, at this day's sitting, the Further and Higher Education (Scotland) Bill and the Social Security (Mortgage Interest Payments) Bill may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.-- [Mr. Boswell.]
Further and Higher Education (Scotland) Bill
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), again considered.
Mr. Dalyell : As the amendment is important from the view of medical and other scientific professions in Scotland-- [Interruption.] It is difficult to speak when people are making such as noise.
Mr. Speaker : Order. Will hon. Members below the Gangway either come into the Chamber and listen to the debate or carry on their conversations outside?
Mr. Dalyell : The view of the dean of the faculty of medicine, who speaks with the full authority of the other medical professors in the university of Edinburgh and has had contact with those in Glasgow and elsewhere, was that he regarded
"the establishment of a National Joint Council for Medicine and Dentistry as being particularly important. There are obvious reasons why these subjects need to be distinguished in this way there is a statutory limit to the number of medical and dental students, unlike the free market situation that is developing for the numbers of other students. Hence the University cannot augment its income in relation to medicine or dentistry by increasing the student intake. This of course means that medicine and dentistry will become increasingly expensive when expressed in terms of income per full time equivalent number of staff. Without national recognition and protection our medical schools will suffer savage staff losses. That is, of course, happening here in Edinburgh where we are being asked to lose 83 posts despite being at exactly the average cost for United Kingdom medical schools."
The dean asks the House to appreciate
"the key relationship of the medical and dental professions with the National Health Service."
He states :
"That is vitually a monopoly employer and hence there has to be a relationship between the number of doctors employed in the NHS and the output of the medical schools. Again this is best done on a UK basis rather than a Scottish one."
That is one reason for the amendment.
According to Edinburgh university, we should not be training doctors and dentists just for Scotland. The dean states : "To do so would not only mean a drastic reduction in output but would destroy our role as one of the major medical schools in the UK."
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He also argues that we must consider how to maintain national standards. The General Medical Council plays the key role, as does the General Dental Council-- [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Mr. Hill) has a distinguished medical school within his constituency, at Southampton university. I would have hoped that he would support us.The letter continues :
"Currently the Education Committee of the GMC is suggesting major changes in the curriculum. The GMC has recently carried out a national review of the final professional examination. All these endeavours are designed to maintain the UK's role as a centre of excellence for medical education and to allow confidence in the uniformity of qualification standards. In this context it makes considerable sense that there should be a National Joint Council for Medicine and Dentistry which could then act as a bridge between the Scottish Higher Education Funding Council and one for England and Wales. It would then be complementary to UK-wide organisations such as the GMC."
That is the considered view of the dean. Because of the importance of the subject, I thought that it was only sensible to bring it to the attention of the Scottish Office.
I have just received a letter from the Minister ; for the sake of coherence, I should like to outline it to the House, because I wish to reply to it in the hope that the Government will make a further response. The Minister acknowledges the letter from Professor Christopher Edwards. Following a conversation which took place at the House, he says that he has had a chance to study amendment No. 87 in the light of the concern which I expressed in Committee about maintaining United Kingdom links. He says :
"Unfortunately, I think amendment No. 87 would be a step in the wrong direction, as it simply requires the Scottish Higher Education Funding Council to set up a Scottish Medical Committee. What we want is a joint, UK medical committee, and I shall be glad to give you an assurance in the House that the Government will require the three funding councils to take action and set one up."
Fortuitously, the Secretary of State for Education and Science is present. I hope that he will spring to his feet and agree to that. He was referred to in Committee at length in terms of his D. H. Lawrence attitude. Here is his chance to contribute to Scottish proceedings. There is real concern about medical standards. It is probably a United Kingdom rather than a Scottish matter, as the Minister's letter suggests, but it is important that, in the English Bill or from the Secretary of State for Education and Science tonight, we get an undertaking. I cannot think of any other reason why the right hon. and learned Gentleman should so courteously have come to the House to take part in our debates. [Interruption.] Sotto voce the Secretary of State says something. If he had spoken a little louder, we would have heard what he said.
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