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Mr. Bennett : There he goes. The hon. Gentleman has just come in. He has not been present.

Mr. Alan W. Williams : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is the Minister in order? All that he has done so far is to attack the Labour party's policies. The debate is about the revenue support grant for Wales. I know that the Conservative party is preparing to be in opposition and that the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Bennett) is preparing to be out of work after the election, but is this in order?

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean) : It is quite in order to compare policies. It is happening in the House all the time.

Mr. Bennett : Had the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Williams) been here, he would have heard silence from Labour party Members about their policies. I have to fill that vacuum by telling the people of Wales what the Labour party's policies are.

Mr. Win Griffiths : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Bennett : No.

The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside, who had so much fun in attacking this side of the House, said at this Dispatch Box when he was a Minister :

"I would go further and call attention to the main anomolies inherent in the rating system."--[ Official Report, 5 July 1974 ; Vol. 876, c. 848.]

He now wants to bring back that very system which, when he was a Minister, he was committed to getting rid of.

In addition, the Labour party wants to make sure that council tax payers will pay more. It wants to abolish compulsory competitive tendering and to stop what it calls the privatisation of essential public services. The hon. Member for Brightside said that at the Labour party conference. Furthermore, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, Central (Mr. Grist) said, the Labour party wants to introduce a Welsh assembly, something which the Leader of the Opposition was opposed to in 1974 and in 1978. Now he is in favour of it. The cost to the Welsh people of a Mickey Mouse assembly in Cardiff would be £50 million. It would duplicate the work done by this House and would ensure that Opposition Members became second class citizens in this House.

We have also heard that the Labour party is against--

[Interruption.] That is one of the things that it does not like. That is why Labour Members stand up and shout, but they will not achieve their objective.

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Column 1077

The hon. Member for Dagenham said :

"I shall be precise. There will be no provision for capping in any legislation that we introduce."--[ Official Report, 6 November 1991 ; Vol. 198, c. 472.]

The hon. Gentleman also said :

"I promise that when Labour is back in government the coercive element in the local government grant will be removed. You may not get as much from a Labour Chancellor as you want. But you will certainly get more than you receive now."

On 15 February 1991 in The New Statesman and Society, when asked whether he would allow councils to increase their annual rates by 60 per cent., the hon. Member for Dagenham said :

"I don't see, even then, that we would want to come in and cap." That is the prospect for the people of Wales if the Labour party ever came to power. The Opposition's policy would be spend, spend, spend and tax, tax, tax. There would be no Government controls. Opposition Members do not want to hear this. They want to shout it down because they know that it will be electorally unpopular. Another policy that the Labour party has up its sleeve is one specifically made for business. Instead of a national business rate, whereby we protect businesses by ensuring that there cannot be an increase of more than the rate of inflation, the Labour party wants to take away the national business rate and give control back to the local authorities. The first thing that would happen, as in the old days, is that the local authorities would target businesses for extra taxation in order to finance their high spending plans. Even looking at the first two years of the non-domestic rate, if it had been based on the spending plans of local authorities in Wales, the rate would have been 3p higher than it will be this year as a result of Government controls. The Opposition do not want to hear that because we are pointing out the difference between what they say here and what is in their policy documents and what it will mean for the domestic charge payer and the business charge payer.

We are also told, in the words of the hon. Member for Dagenham, that the Labour party rebate system would "pauperise millions of people". It will be of great interest to the people of Wales to know that a Labour rebate system will make it difficult for many of those who are currently able to claim rebates as of right. They would be losers under the Labour party's policy.

We have heard that the Labour party wants regional government--

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. Before I put the Question, I should inform the House that some hon. Members may find it a little difficult to get to the Lobbies. Access is available, but in view of the difficulties, I propose to add five minutes to the Division. It being three hours after the commencement of proceedings on the motion, Mr. Deputy Speaker-- put the Question, pursuant to Order [7 February].

Question put :--

The House divided : Ayes 188, Noes 132.

Division No. 80] [10.22 pm

AYES

Alexander, Richard

Alison, Rt Hon Michael

Allason, Rupert

Amess, David

Amos, Alan

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Arnold, Sir Thomas

Ashby, David

Atkins, Robert

Batiste, Spencer

Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

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Column 1078

Beggs, Roy

Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

Benyon, W.

Blackburn, Dr John G.

Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Body, Sir Richard

Boscawen, Hon Robert

Boswell, Tim

Bottomley, Peter

Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard

Brandon-Bravo, Martin

Brazier, Julian

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

Chapman, Sydney

Conway, Derek

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Curry, David

Durant, Sir Anthony

Dykes, Hugh

Eggar, Tim

Emery, Sir Peter

Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)

Evennett, David

Fallon, Michael

Farr, Sir John

Fenner, Dame Peggy

Fishburn, John Dudley

Fookes, Dame Janet

Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

Franks, Cecil

Gale, Roger

Gardiner, Sir George

Gill, Christopher

Glyn, Dr Sir Alan

Goodhart, Sir Philip

Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair

Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

Greenway, John (Ryedale)

Gregory, Conal

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

Grist, Ian

Ground, Patrick

Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn

Hague, William

Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

Hampson, Dr Keith

Hannam, Sir John

Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr')

Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

Harris, David

Haselhurst, Alan

Hayes, Jerry

Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)

Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE)

Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

Hill, James

Hind, Kenneth

Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

Hordern, Sir Peter

Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)

Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

Hunt, Rt Hon David

Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)

Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

Irvine, Michael

Jack, Michael

Jackson, Robert

Janman, Tim

Jessel, Toby

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

Key, Robert

King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

Kirkhope, Timothy

Knight, Greg (Derby North)

Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

Knox, David

Lang, Rt Hon Ian

Latham, Michael

Lawrence, Ivan

Lightbown, David

Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

Lord, Michael

McCrea, Rev William

McCrindle, Sir Robert

MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)

McLoughlin, Patrick

McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael

McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick

Malins, Humfrey

Mans, Keith

Marland, Paul

Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

Maude, Hon Francis

Mawhinney, Dr Brian

Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Miller, Sir Hal

Mills, Iain

Miscampbell, Norman

Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

Moate, Roger

Monro, Sir Hector

Morrison, Sir Charles

Moss, Malcolm

Moynihan, Hon Colin

Nelson, Anthony

Neubert, Sir Michael

Newton, Rt Hon Tony

Norris, Steve

Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley

Page, Richard

Patnick, Irvine

Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

Pawsey, James

Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

Porter, Barry (Wirral S)

Powell, William (Corby)

Price, Sir David

Raffan, Keith

Rhodes James, Sir Robert

Riddick, Graham

Ridsdale, Sir Julian

Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm

Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn

Ross, William (Londonderry E)

Rossi, Sir Hugh

Rowe, Andrew

Shaw, David (Dover)

Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

Shelton, Sir William

Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

Skeet, Sir Trevor

Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)

Soames, Hon Nicholas

Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

Stern, Michael

Stevens, Lewis

Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)

Tapsell, Sir Peter

Taylor, Ian (Esher)

Taylor, John M (Solihull)

Taylor, Sir Teddy

Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

Thompson, Sir D. (Calder Vly)

Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

Thurnham, Peter

Tracey, Richard

Tredinnick, David

Trippier, David

Twinn, Dr Ian

Wakeham, Rt Hon John

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