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Mr. Hunt : As a result of legislation passed in the House, the non- domestic business rate is redistributed nationally by the Government. The Government do not have some special money that they produce at the Royal Mint. The Government are always redistributing resources whether they come from income tax, value added tax, the uniform business rate or whatever. I do not see the point of the hon. Gentleman's intervention.
Let me break down the figures. Within the aggregate external finance package, the revenue support grant total for 1992-93 is £1, 621 million. The total allocated for revenue specific grants is £195 million and the distributable amount from the non-domestic rating account is £536 million. The Welsh non-domestic rate poundage for 1992-93 will increase by more than 4 per cent. to 42.5.
The distribution report before the House sets out the calculations for each authority's standard spending assessment. Those have been recalculated to take account of the increase in resources for teachers' pay. However, to achieve consistency, it has also been necessary for me to take account of other data changes. They include a number of credit approvals for capital spending which affect the loan charges element of individual authorities' SSAs. All the changes have been handled in accordance with the distribution formulae agreed with the local authority associations. The overall average increase in SSAs for the coming financial year is more than 8 per cent. after making allowance for the higher education institutions that are to leave the local authority sector on 1 April 1992. The average increase for counties is 8.1 per cent. and for districts 8.7 per cent.
Mr. Donald Anderson (Swansea, East) : The Secretary of State now appears to count it as a virtue that 93 per cent. of local authority expenditure will be met from central Government and 7 per cent. only from the local poll tax. Is my memory correct, because I recall that, when the Secretary of State and his colleagues were trying to sell the poll tax, one of its chief virtues was meant to be the accountability of local government to its local poll tax payers? In the light of the 7 per cent. contribution from those people, where does the accountability argument now stand?
Mr. Hunt : If the hon. Gentleman thought about it, he would understand that the figures sharpen accountability-- [Interruption.] Of course they do. The hon. Gentleman's inference is much more serious because I have been searching for some considerable time for a suggestion from the Opposition as to whether they would maintain Wales's grant advantage. The hon. Member for
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Dagenham (Mr. Gould) said that he felt that about the right amount to be raised from local taxation was 20 per cent.Mr. Anderson : What about accountability?
Mr. Hunt : I am not talking about accountability at the moment ; I am talking about the real bill for Welsh people.
In Committee today I tried to allow the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) to intervene so that I could obtain that information. He did not do so, so we still have the question about what would happen to the Welsh grant advantage. If we had the tragedy of a Labour Government returned to office and if they allowed for local people to raise 20 per cent. of the contribution towards local expenditure, local bills for local people in Wales would treble. That is why the Opposition owe us an answer on that crucial point. I hope that we will hear it tonight.
I am firmly of the view that the levels of increase will enable local authorities to maintain and develop services without placing an unreasonable burden on charge payers. They are significantly in excess of inflation and, based on conclusions reached by the Audit Commission, I believe that there are also substantial efficiency savings available to local authorities. As I told the House on 13 January, I plan to meet the Welsh local authority associations shortly to discuss their future plans for efficiency initiatives. They have achieved much already, but I think that they would acknowledge that there is still much that can be accomplished.
Mr. Richard Livsey (Brecon and Radnor) : The right hon. Gentleman said that SSA settlements were in excess of inflation, but the SSA for Powys is just 6.2 per cent. even when allowance is made for the teachers' salary increases. Why is it that the mathematical analysis that has produced that SSA discriminates against the charge payers of Powys, who have set their poll tax at £100, right on the right hon. Gentleman's target?
Mr. Hunt : I am always concerned for the hon. Gentleman when he produces wrong figures, so may I put the record straight? In Powys the SSA rises from £87.670 million to £93.187 million. That is an increase of £5.517 million, which is equivalent to a 6.3 per cent. addition. Compared with the 1991-92 budget in Powys, that SSA is 8 per cent. higher. It is the highest increase on last year's budgets of any of the counties in Wales.
If one assesses that SSA per head--I realise that I may be causing dissension elsewhere in the House--which county of all the Welsh counties receives the largest SSA per head ? The answer is Powys. It receives £1,019 per head.
Mr. Livsey : As the right hon. Gentleman knows, Powys is by far the most sparsely populated county in Wales. What has happened now is that the relativity between Powys and the other county councils has reduced.
Mr. Hunt : Let me give the hon. Gentleman the exact figures. I do not want this to turn into a debate about Powys, but it is important for the people of Powys to know the facts. Aggregate external finance in Powys will rise from £70 million to £84 million. Therefore, the external finance towards a budget of £93 million will be £84 million. Working out the increase in SSA per head, one sees that Powys receives the largest increase over 1991-92 for the
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year 1992-93. The increase in Powys is larger than in any other county in Wales and amounts to £70 per head. Therefore, I hope that we have heard the last of that, but if there is any dispute over the figures the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Livsey) will no doubt come back to me.Mr. Gwilym Jones (Cardiff, North) : Would my right hon. Friend care to estimate what might happen to community charge payers in Powys if the Liberal Democrats' policy were implemented? The paper "Shaping Tomorrow's Local Democracy" says that the Liberal Democrats propose a cut in revenue support from central Government. It says : "as soon as practicable the proportion of the total tax revenue which is raised at local, as opposed to national, level must be very substantially increased".
Mr. Hunt : I should be delighted to hear what the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor has to say about that because it would be bad news for Powys if the Liberals got anywhere near control. They have already said that local councils should raise far more of the money that they spend. They want increased accountability but they would increase the bill of people in Powys.
Taking into account the proposed increases for 1992-93, the average increase in Welsh districts' SSAs for 1991-92 and 1992-93 taken together is more than 30 per cent. That is an increase in SSA over only two years. The average increase for Welsh counties, after making allowance for the changes in higher education, is 24 per cent. over two years. Those are significant increases and they confound any argument that the Government are not committed to the adequate resourcing of local government in Wales.
I am aware of complaints that the standard spending assessments system does not properly reflect the needs of individual authorities and gives rise to volatile changes in individual authorities' SSAs year on year. The methodology for determining SSAs for 1992-93 has, as in years past, been agreed with the associations through the Welsh Consultative Council on Local Government Finance. It is time-consuming and often contentious work and I pay tribute to the associations for their efforts in achieving fully agreed conclusions.
The starting point for those discussions is that change should be limited to what is essential. I am in full agreement with the local authority associations that stability should be preserved unless there is a good reason for change. An important change to the district authority formulae for 1992-93, which the Council of Welsh Districts considered essential, has been the reduction in the distributive effect of the composite social indicator to 4 per cent. of the overall current SSA for district authorities. The composite social indicator--CSI--was included in the formulae for the 1990-91 settlement at the request of the CWD, with the intention of redistributing funds to those district authorities that suffer relative social deprivation. The CWD now considers that the CSI mechanism over-compensates those authorities, and so the Welsh Consultative Council agreed to the CWD's request for a change in 1992-93. I hope that that explains the background to the system. SSAs should also reflect the changing circumstances of individual authorities. To that end, the distribution model uses financial and non-financial data supplied by local authorities. That includes population changes and the
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level of individual authorities' borrowing that affect loan charges. For those reasons and others, the position of local authorities relative to one another inevitably changes year on year. I believe that the SSA arrangements are sound and that there are good reasons for the changes which affect individual authorities' SSAs.Mr. Morgan : Some Opposition Members are not quite as bright as the Secretary of State. At least, we are not quite as well briefed on the intricacies of how those measurements are arrived at. Hon. Members on both sides of the House and probably leaders of the local authorities and their officers would like to eliminate much of the unnecessary quarrelling over the exact definitions of the allowance to be made for inflation. Has the Secretary of State managed to agree with the local authorities, or even just with their treasurers, what the proper rate of increase should be in the coming year for what could be called a "service standstill" budget? That would take into account all the extra costs that local authorities face, because it is a much more labour-intensive service than the average basket of goods. The retail prices index of inflation is irrelevant. What is the rate of increase that local authorities and the Minister's specialists agree is required to maintain services at the same level next year?
Mr. Hunt : That is precisely what is discussed at the Welsh Consultative Council for Local Government Finance. In all my experience as a Minister responsible for local government finance in England, I never knew a local authority publicly to say, "Thank you very much, we do not want any more". I remember a Labour Minister telling local authorities that the party was over. There has always been a conflict between central Government and local government about the appropriate level of spending, but in Wales we have a particularly effective mechanism. We sit round a table and argue the points through, which is the function of the Welsh Consultative Council for Local Government Finance. I pay tribute to the local government officials and leaders-- [Interruption.] We do not agree a figure. I put what I believe to be the appropriate level of spending in the TSS--
Mr. Morgan : Is that a bank or a building society?
Mr. Hunt : It is neither a bank nor a building society. It means total standard spending and is the sum total of all the standard spending assessments in Wales. That is the key figure, which I believe has been increased appropriately.
I hope soon to submit for the approval of the House, a special grant report setting out arrangements for the payment of an additional £6 million that I am providing to fund 75 per cent. of the estimated revenue cost of council tax implementation. It would be inappropriate for the report to be laid before Parliament until it has given its consent to the Local Government Finance Bill. Standard spending assessments under the settlement for 1992-93 do, however, make provision for the 25 per cent. of that expected expenditure, which is not met and will not be covered by the special grant. I announced on 13 January that I shall provide £40 million under the community charge reduction scheme for 1992-93. In deciding on the appropriate level of funding
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for the coming year, I have taken account of both the significant reduction in community charge levels that has been achieved through community charge grant for 1991-92, and the increased level of revenue support grant that I am providing for 1992-93. About 56 per cent. of charge payers in 500 communities will continue to receive community charge relief. The amount that I am committing to the scheme is double that provided in 1990-91, when the community charge for standard spending was £55 higher than the level that I consider appropriate for 1992-93.Provided that local authorities spend in line with my plans, the personal community charge that they set should not exceed, on average, £118. [Interruption.] Opposition Members may be only just beginning to understand what I am saying. The important issue is the increase in TSS, which is the appropriate increase in all the circumstances. That £118 is less than half the equivalent figure for English authorities and £3 less than the average charge of £121 set by Welsh authorities for 1991 -92. Relief under the community charge reduction scheme for the coming year should reduce the average community charge in Wales to £100. When account is taken of community charge benefit, the average charge falls further to about £85.
Mr. Anderson : The Secretary of State will recall that the Prime Minister called the poll tax "uncollectable". On what assumptions is the Secretary of State working in respect of the proportion of the total sum capable of being collected by Welsh authorities, given that there is ever greater public resistance to it? Perhaps "resistance" is the wrong word, but it is more difficult for local authorities to collect that tax. Is the assumed figure--94 per cent.--more or less.
Mr. Hunt : I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman has raised that point, as I have the latest figures, which show that community charge collection in Wales is going well. Returns up to and including the third quarter of 1991-92 show that a total of 70 per cent. of the budgeted income for the year had been collected by 31 December. That includes four authorities that have collected 85 per cent. or more of their budgeted income--Dinefwr, Preseli, Ogwr and Brecknock. I hope that the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) appreciates that that is the quickest response that he has received to any question that he has asked in the House. Authorities expect to collect 100 per cent. of the budgeted total for 1990-91, and they are on course to achieve the same level of collection in 1991-92. The hon. Gentleman asked for the exact figures for the full amount as against the budgeted amount. The latest figures for the end of the third quarter of 1991--to 31 December 1991--show that 69.8 per cent. of the budgeted amount and 65.5 per cent. of the full amount has been collected. That is a remarkably good record when compared with anywhere in the United Kingdom.
Mr. Anderson : Will the Secretary of State give way?
Mr. Hunt : I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will get a chance to make his own contribution.
I wish to pay tribute to staff, councillors and everyone working in local authorities in Wales who have achieved such a remarkably good result.
Some Members opposite have been telling people not to pay the community charge--[ Hon. Members :-- "Where?"] I
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cannot see any in the Chamber. There are no such Members in the Chamber, but there have been Members on Opposition Benches--Mr. Ray Powell (Ogmore) : The Secretary of State said "opposite".
Mr. Hunt : I said that there had been Members on Opposition Benches- -I chose my words carefully--who have advocated the non-payment of poll tax or community charge. I can identify more than 30 Labour Members who told the people of the United Kingdom not to pay their poll tax or community charge.
I wish to say a few words about non-payment. There will be no amnesty for non-payers. We are taking further steps to ensure that authorities have the necessary powers for the proper enforcement of the community charge. We have extended from two to six years the period during which enforcement proceedings may be commenced. We are moving to put beyond doubt the admissibility of computer evidence in proceedings for community charge recovery in magistrates courts. My Department has written to local authorities about how to proceed in the short period before the Local Government Finance Bill is enacted.
We believe there is no obstacle to authorities continuing to apply for liability orders where they consider that their procedures for the presentation of cases meet the requirements of existing law. I understand that authorities are continuing to apply and that more than 6,000 liability orders were made by Welsh magistrates in the last two weeks of January.
The settlement before the House today is a good one for local government and charge payers alike.
Dr. Kim Howells (Pontypridd) : Will the Secretary of State give way?
Mr. Hunt : I shall not give way yet as I wish to address the point on capping raised by the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley). As the House knows, I have not announced charge capping criteria for 1992-93, but I will scrutinise carefully the budget of any authority which exceeds its SSA. I hope that it will not be necessary for me to use my charge-capping powers. In recent years, Welsh authorities have, on the whole, performed better than their English counterparts in setting prudent budgets. They have benefited from more generous settlements than their English counterparts in recognition of this, and it has not been necessary to charge cap a single Welsh local authority. That is a record which I want to continue, but I have become increasingly concerned during the past few days and weeks by reports I have seen in newspapers, which I hope are untrue, which suggest that a number of authorities are considering setting budgets that would place an unacceptable burden on charge payers. Those authorities should be in no doubt that I shall use my charge-capping powers if I consider it necessary. In view of those reports, I have today asked my officials to set up a special unit in the Welsh Office to make the necessary arrangements for capping. I hope any authorities that are contemplating diverging from my plans in setting budgets will think again and that I will not have to activate the capping procedures now in hand.
Dr. Kim Howells : It sounds as though the Secretary of State is setting up a special investigative division. I hope
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that it will have a better effect on Wales than did the introduction of the poll tax. Local authorities are not abstract notions--their members are elected by respectable, good people in Welsh communities who, through no fault of their own and because they cannot afford to pay the poll tax, have been dragged before the courts and criminalised. They are people who have never previously been in court. The Government are responsible for that and for bringing untold heartache and hardship to households. They should be thoroughly ashamed of that.Mr. Hunt : I am not ashamed of that. We are talking about civil offences ; it is wrong for people to seek to benefit from services while not paying for them. There is no question of people not being able to afford the poll tax or community charge, as the amount provided through the income support system more than covers the 20 per cent. they have to pay, due to the low community charge in Wales.
I believe that the settlement for 1992-93 provides Welsh local authorities with a realistic framework within which to maintain and develop service provision. I hope that they will respond to that challenge and will act in a responsible manner and not undo their past achievements. I commend the settlement to the House.
7.57 pm
Mr. Barry Jones (Alyn and Deeside) : How obviously Her Majesty's Government have sought to shunt this debate into the small hours. They tried to do so twice and, after nearly three weeks, we are now able to have a debate at a reasonable hour. We know that the Government have sought to hide this debate because they know that the poll tax is most unpopular in Wales. Tonight, the Secretary of State has presented the orders, revised, at only the last minute. That does not increase our confidence in the Government.
The poll tax continues under the Conservatives. They rejected Labour's offer of a poll tax abolition Bill. If our offer had been taken up last summer, another round of poll tax chaos would have been averted. Now, poll tax panic is once again breaking out in the Conservative ranks. The Government will have to fight the general election campaign against a background of renewed controversy over the cost, fairness and practicality of the poll tax. Whether the general election is on 9 April or 7 May, the Conservatives face the spectre of the electorate in Wales picking up their poll tax bills in one hand and Conservative election leaflets in the other. The Government, who have already wasted more than £100 million on the poll tax in Wales, may yet add confusion to chaos. Will the Secretary of State now rule out any political gerrymandering to delay poll tax bills going out in Wales until after the general election? The poll tax nightmare continues. Council treasurers are having to try to administer the discredited poll tax which even the Prime Minister described as uncollectable. They also have to collect growing poll tax debts and adjust their budgets to meet standard spending assessments under the threat of poll tax capping. The chaos, confusion and uncertainty among treasurers increase by the day. Our councils in Wales are being asked to engage in the biggest debt collection exercise in the history of Wales. More than 400,000 summonses for poll tax arrears have been issued by magistrates courts in Wales. Even some of
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the poorest people in Wales still have to pay 20 per cent. of the poll tax. Ministers are threatening poll tax capping and, by implication, more cuts in local services.This wretched record is the responsibility of the Secretary of State, and soon he will have to face the electorate and account for his actions. Conservative Members representing Welsh
constituencies--fairly thin on the ground they are too--do not support the right hon. Gentleman's views on the poll tax. They do not believe that it should be inflicted on the people of Wales, and the right hon. Gentleman knows that. But the blame for the chaos lies with him.
The Secretary of State's central role in introducing the poll tax in England and Wales is well known. It is worth reminding the House once again of some of the gems of political wit, insight and intelligence uttered by the right hon. Gentleman in the past. He told the Conservative party conference in 1989 :
"The fact is that, whatever Labour claim or do, the community charge is on course for successful introduction throughout England and Wales."
The right hon. Gentleman recently said :
"I welcome the community charge system to which I was committed at the last election and to which I remain committed as a much fairer and better system."
So why should we believe anything that the right hon. Gentleman has said tonight? Why should we ever believe him again?
Mr. David Hunt : As I understand it, the hon. Gentleman will put it to the electorate at the next election that we should return to the rating system. When he was Under-Secretary of State for Wales--
Mr. Rowlands : That is going back a bit.
Mr. Hunt : The hon. Gentleman is going back a bit too. He said then :
"I will go further and call attention to the many anomalies inherent in the rating system."
The hon. Gentleman was against the rating system then, so why is he so much in favour of going back to it now?
Mr. Jones : That was a frivolous intervention, and the right hon. Gentleman knows it.
The Under-Secretary has been no shrinking violet on the poll tax either. The people of Pembroke, reeling under the hon. Gentleman's indifference to the workers of Trecwn and Brawdy, will, I am sure, remember that he said in this House quite recently :
"The community charge is a fair tax and a reasonable charge to make on people, so we should support it."--[ Official Report, 23 May 1989 ; Vol. 153, c. 911.]
Why should the people of Pembroke ever believe him again? We think that this is another nail in his parliamentary coffin.
Mr. Anderson : In the light of that crushing indictment of these two Ministers' record on the poll tax, does my hon. Friend agree that the least the people of Wales can expect from them is some contrition?
Mr. Jones : I am quite prepared to give way to either of them if he wants to apologise for the poll tax. Clearly, there is no contrition tonight.
I thought that the right hon. Gentleman was unconvincing on teachers' pay, particularly when answering questions posed by my hon. Friend the Member
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for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) and by the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley). I understand that the total cost of the teachers' award in Wales will be £49 million. Welsh Office Ministers have claimed that the extra £3.5 million will help to cover the cost of the award, but the counties are left to find the balance of £45.5 million, on top--Ministers did not make this clear--of the built-in additional costs in 1992-93 of funding the 1991 teachers' award, which will cost an extra £14 million--because the 1991 award was phased in and part of it became effective only from December 1991. So the total extra cost to be found by the counties for teachers' pay in the coming year is £63 million, made up of 7.8 per cent. from the 1992 award, and an extra 2.8 per cent. from 1991. The Secretary of State did not refer to the difficulties that the award will create. Whatever the merits of the teachers' award--we know that the teachers need the money it is clear that the Government expect the counties of Wales to find ways of meeting exceptional increased costs within a settlement that we know is inadequate for local services as a whole--there is certainly a large hole in the settlement in respect of teachers' pay. On top of all that we have to contend with the right hon. Gentleman's bully-boy tactics of threatening capping.The blame for next year's bills also lies with the right hon. Gentleman. The local authority associations in Wales consistently advised him that the settlement could be improved. Our spending needs continue to increase. The settlement is inadequate to meet the extra costs flowing from increasing statutory responsibilities. The counties face increasing costs related to the implementation of Government legislation on the national curriculum, on pupil assessment, on community care, and of the Children Act 1989, to say nothing of funding the teachers' pay award.
For districts, the costs of implementing environmental protection legislation and waste disposal legislation are considerable. The right hon. Gentleman did not make his case when discussing the difficulties faced by local authorities.
The Government have no excuses left for the 20 per cent. poll tax contribution rule--
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Nicholas Bennett) : Will the hon. Gentleman give way
The 20 per cent. rule has been condemned by every independent and professional body. It is to be removed under the council tax, yet the Government insist on keeping it while the poll tax remains. The rule is a disaster and a disgrace, and it is making the poll tax even more difficult to collect. It punishes the poor and it has created debt and hardship. In his passionate intervention earlier, my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Dr. Howells) spoke the truth.
These orders relate to housing and the Government have created a housing crisis. With over 70,000 people on waiting lists in Wales, homelessness at record levels and mortgage repossessions soaring, it is time for action by the Government, but they have cut the supply of affordable homes to rent. Capital allocations mean that few, if any, council houses will be built next year. In 1975, under the Labour Government, there were 8,294 council house
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starts. In 1990, the figure was down to just 350. Little wonder that homelessness has doubled in Wales since 1979.These orders also refer to the attempts by local authorities to generate employment, something that they do very well in Wales. Will the Secretary of State take this opportunity finally to come out in support of RECHAR and additionality, which is of such great importance to the south Wales coalfield? It is about time that he chose between party and country and I ask him to stand up and fight for Wales.
This issue threatens to spread beyond the £18 million for the south Wales coalfield. Lack of progress on the additionality issue could threaten European grants and aid worth £18 million to Wales. The blame lies clearly with Her Majesty's Government. This dispute could not be happening at a worse time. Unemployment in Wales increased by 35 per cent. in the last 12 months, yet the Government are blocking millions of pounds for positive local authority initiatives to strengthen the economy, create employment and improve skills. In south Wales alone, not only RECHAR money worth £18 million but over £40 million in regional development funds are at risk. The projects at risk include phase 3 of Cardiff (Wales) Airport business park, the Tawe valley development project in west Glamorgan, the Crumlin navigation regeneration project in Gwent and the valleys innovation centre at Abercynon in Mid-Glamorgan.
This is the record that I honestly believe will put Welsh Ministers at risk when the general election comes. The record of Her Majesty's Government is poor and I was not surprised to see recently an article about the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Bennett), the
Under-Secretary. The West Wales Guardian published an article on its front page headed, "Nick's Seat At Risk". It said :
"Although the major parties are running neck and neck nationally the regional patterns are not uniform and the swing in Wales forecasts that the Pembroke seat held by Welsh Office Minister Mr. Nicholas Bennett is marginal and will fall to Labour."
This detailed analysis comes not from an impartial newspaper, but from one that favours the Conservatives. I am surprised to see that it is prepared to print the truth and predict that the excellent Labour candidate, Nick Ainger, will win the seat by 2,400 votes. Mr. Nicholas Bennett rose --
Mr. Jones : I can see that this is enraging the Under-Secretary, but I warn him that though he may come to the Box, he does so at his own peril.
Mr. Nicholas Bennett : On the day that that report was published, the Gallup poll in The Daily Telegraph --the one on which that newspaper relies--showed a 4.5 per cent. Conservative lead, which gives me a majority of 3,000.
Mr. Jones : If that is so, why does the West Wales Guardian refer to the Gallup poll?
I listened in vain for the Secretary of State's apology to the people of Wales for brazenly and blithely inflicting on them an unjust, unpopular and wasteful poll tax, although there was no support in Wales for it. It took a right hon. Gentleman representing the English constituency in Wirral to do that, and he is identified closely with it. The blame for the poll tax lies with the Conservative Government. The Conservatives know it and the people of
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Wales know it. We know that Conservatives have undermined local government. They have eroded local services and wasted millions of pounds. Time is up for the Government. It is time for a fresh start. It is time for a Labour Government.8.15 pm
Sir. Anthony Meyer (Clwyd, North-West) : The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) can be sure that an anthology of his wit and wisdom is being lovingly compiled and will be extensively used during the next general election, although it would be more effective to play back some of his speeches. I am thinking not of the relatively sotto voce speech that he made tonight, but of the speech that he made a little while ago in the Welsh Grand Committee, which I shall treasure for a long time.
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for a fair and generous settlement. I remind him of what has been said about the Prime Minister--that he endeared himself to the previous Prime Minister because, she said, he said no so charmingly. My right hon. Friend says yes so charmingly that even his threepenny bits look like gold sovereigns. I am particularly pleased that, as a result of this and previous settlements, the adventure playground in Rhyl, which has such an important part to play in raising the morale of that rather depressed end of the town, will go ahead.
Members of Parliament, by definition, are never satisfied. We always want more, and I have to record my intense unhappiness that Clwyd county council has for so very long delayed action on Ruthin bypass. Now, in the restriction in the transport supplementary grant, it has been able to find a pretext further to delay the starting of that essential scheme. There are always schemes that we want. I am thinking in particular of the arts centre at Llandudno, on which I know that my right hon. Friend the Minister of State has worked so tirelessly behind the scenes. Local government looks to central Government for support for such projects.
I have a pet scheme of my own--the pier at Colwyn bay, one of the few remaining piers in north Wales, which will shortly fall into the sea unless something is done about it. I was delighted when, the other day, the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside visited it and promised that a Labour Government would find the money to put it right. On this, as on everything else, the hon. Gentleman goes around pledging the moon. The trouble is that the moon has already been pledged, latterly in the shape of revenue support grants. These have been generous, because they had to bring the poll tax down to the low level at which it stands in Wales. Welsh Members are particularly pleased that we have managed to drive English Members of Parliament out of the Chamber, because that means that they will not know what a wonderful deal we are getting.
Mr. Robert N. Wareing (Liverpool, West Derby) : I am English.
Sir Anthony Meyer : I apologise to the hon. Gentleman. I am blind in my left eye.
I agree with the fears of the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) about what all this is doing for local autonomy. As my right hon. Friend said, 93 per cent. of all the moneys spent by local authorities no longer comes
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from any source for which they are responsible for voting. On top of that, there is the threat of community charge capping. What does all that mean for local autonomy? I do not think that the public care much. For example, they support the transfer to central funding of the police and fire services. They are pleased to see that higher education is now the Government's responsibility. I think that the majority would like to see responsibility for teachers' pay transferred to the Government. Many would like to see education so transferred. They support, and I support, the concept of ring fencing for certain items of local government expenditure. My good friend the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Wardell) is not present, but he and I both feel strongly that, if the interests of the more vulnerable sections of our community are to be protected, it may well be necessary to consider ring-fencing the moneys allocated for community care. All that is fine, but where is it leading us?I recently attended a local government conference in Rouen in France, when I asked my French neighbour how much of the money that his local authority was spending was raised by taxes which were locally decided and voted. He said that it was between 80 and 85 per cent. That is in France, which it is the conventional wisdom among all of us to consider to be a highly centralised country.
Mr. Wigley : Does the hon. Gentleman accept that one of the problems in Wales--it may well be true in the rest of Britain--is the great disparity between levels of living standards and incomes? Areas in close proximity may have vastly different per capita and net household incomes. Therefore, with relatively small local authorities, there is a need, at the very least, for significant equalisation if levels of services are to be common throughout those areas. Perhaps that difference does not exist quite so much in areas of continental Europe.
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