House of Commons Hansard Debates for 14 Feb 1992

Mr. Jopling : I was unaware of that, so I am grateful to my hon. Friend for doubling the strength of the evidence.

Mr. Nicholas Soames (Crawley) : Is my right hon. Friend aware that, to this day in north-east Scotland, there is an itinerant pack of hounds that is called up by the farmers? It moves from place to place in a part of the country that has many keepers and others involved in the control and conservation of game. They need a pack of hounds to do the necessary work for them, because there is no other way to control the foxes.

Mr. Jopling : That adds to the evidence, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his information.

Mr. Ron Davies : I have listened with great interest and amusement to the right hon. Gentleman's half-century-old anecdote. The thrust of his argument is that, in the uplands, especially at lambing time, hounds are necessary to control the fox population. Presumably he is referring to the lambing period of late March, April and early May, when the problem of foxes is most acute. Can he explain why, at the very time that he claims that his evidence shows that there is a problem with foxes because the ewes are lambing, the hunts stop hunting and declare their close season?

Mr. Jopling : The ewes are brought off the fells to have their lambs in the lowlands. After they have spent a few weeks there, they go back to the fells. That is when the foxes take the young lambs. It is perfectly simple.

Mr. Ron Davies rose--

Mr. Jopling : No, I have given way enough.

Mr. Davies : The right hon. Gentleman did not take my point. At the very time that he asserts economic damage is done, the hunts declare their close season. They stop killing the foxes. Why is that?

Mr. Jopling : The hunts operate at a time when there are lambs, and they deal with the foxes.

If fox hunting is banned, I suspect that there will be a massive increase in the fox population in the upland areas, and that will cause even more damage to the sheep population. However, I think that the opposite will be true in the lowlands, where I suspect there will be fewer foxes.

Sir Gerrard Neale : Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Jopling : No, I have given way more than anybody else. From our discussions this morning, I have the impression that some of the Bill's supporters--not all--are motivated as much by revulsion at the supporters and the followers of hunts as they are at any cruelty that might

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occur. There was an extraordinary article in "Horse and Hound" on 30 January. Mr. Richard Course, formerly a chairman of the League Against Cruel Sports, wrote :

"The plain fact is that the abolition of foxhunting, or any other form of hunting with hounds, will not make a hap'orth of difference to animal welfare."

That is a fundamental point, made by someone with great experience.

Like other hon. Members, I have had letters from my constituents asking me to support the Bill. Some of those letters refer to those people who follow hounds--whether on foot, on horse or even by car--as bloodthirsty, sadistic monsters. I hope that the House will understand that nothing could be further from the truth about those thousands of country people who like to follow the hounds, although not necessarily on a horse. Indeed, as I have said, in many areas such as the Lake district there is little hunting. Those people are doing what their forbears have done for centuries and they are perplexed about why those activities should be in danger of becoming a criminal offence. I, too, do not understand why they should become a criminal offence. The Bill is a serious mistake and I oppose it. 11.18 am

Mr. Elliot Morley (Glanford and Scunthorpe) : There is a spread of opinion in any constituency. I represent a significant rural area. One of the arguments against those who oppose cruel sports is that they all come from urban parts. That does not apply to me or, indeed, many other hon. Members who support the Bill.

Some of my local farmers support hunting. They do not try to justify the cruelty of fox hunting, but they have an attachment to the tradition of field sports. The letters have received and discussions that I have had with my constituent farmers have been conducted in a perfectly reasonable, logical and courteous way. I appreciate the points that they have made to me. When I say to them that the bottom line of all the arguments is how they can justify inflicting prolonged pain and stress on an animal for no reason other than the enjoyment of the human tormentors, even they accept that that is hard to do.

I shall put to rest once and for all one or two of the issues raised in the debate. There is the question of cruelty. Some hon. Members who have spoken against the Bill have not taken into account, in considering various sports that involve killing animals, that here we are talking about the deliberate infliction of cruelty. That does not apply to sports such as shooting. Although it may be true that some birds could be winged and may not be killed outright, people who shoot do not go out with the purpose of inflicting deliberate cruelty. Therefore, the argument is not the same. Nor, indeed, is the argument the same for fishing. Fishermen do not set out to inflict deliberate cruelty. One or two hon. Members need biology lessons on the physiology and nervous system of fish compared with that of a medium -sized mammal such as a fox.

We have debated the legal definition of cruelty. Not one hon. Member would dispute that if a bunch of yobbos set a pack of dogs on a cat, they would go to gaol. That is legally defined as cruelty. Yet the principle of setting dogs on a fox is no different from that of setting dogs on a cat or a sheep. The only difference is that cats and sheep are covered under the legal definition of cruelty and foxes are not. That is the very point which the Bill sets out to rectify.

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I certainly endorse what has been said about hedgehogs and other mammals. Naturally, cruel sports dominate the debate, but I know of cases of youths in my constituency who deliberately ride their motorbikes over hedgehogs and of people kicking hedgehogs around deliberately. Those serious issues need to be addressed.

We heard the argument about jobs. The hon. Member who talked about a million horses being slaughtered completely discredited the argument about the impact on jobs. Indeed, the cruel sports lobby has exaggerated the impact. I would not deny that some jobs are directly associated with hunts, but they amount to hundreds rather than thousands.

If people want to continue fox hunting as a sport, a tradition or a cultural, visual image, there is no reason why hunts cannot switch to drag hunting. It is not only better for the animals, but it is better for the horses as it is possible to ensure that a drag hunt goes over fences which constitute a reasonable jump for the horses. There is the further benefit that it is possible to keep the hounds away from houses. Many domestic pets and farm animals have been killed and many people's rights have been interfered with by hounds that have run amok.

Mr. Michael Colvin (Romsey and Waterside) : This morning, several hon. Members have raised the possibility of drag hunts. A drag hunt and a real hunt are not the same. A drag hunt is much more like a race. It is more akin to a point-to-point. It involves chasing round the countryside after a scented bag--so far, nobody has indicated who the scented bag is. Neverthless, a scented bag is drawn round the countryside first. I have been looking for an analogy to a drag hunt. Someone I know likened it to kissing one's sister, and he should know. [Hon. Members :--"Oh."] There is no resemblance between drag hunting and proper hunting, and the hon. Gentleman should realise that.

Mr. Morley : I cannot comment on the hon. Gentleman's sexual habits. Of course, a drag hunt and a fox hunt are different. One of the differences is the lack of cruelty. Many keen horse riders would not dream of joining a fox hunt, because of their objection to the cruelty involved, but they would be happy to join a drag hunt. If people are concerned about rural employment, the introduction of drag hunts could increase employment. That is a better argument than saying that drag hunts would undermine the pleasure of the hunt.

Mr. Colvin : If that were so, there would be more drag hunts than there are. There are 10 drag hunts and many hundreds of proper hunts.

Mr. Morley : In fact, there are 12 drag hunts--and there are quite a few on the continent.

Is the only concern of those who follow fox hunts the blood, the cruelty and the killing? What sort of people are they if that is what is so important to them? We should look at the wider issue. I am concerned about the hon. Gentleman's point. If people want to keep fox hunts together, they can switch to drag hunting.

Before I was Member of Parliament, I was involved in nature reserve management. On odd occasions, foxes cause a problem. The Bill would not eliminate the right of individuals to take action against foxes by killing them

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humanely, either by shooting or by humane trapping. Both the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Scottish Office Agriculture Department have commissioned studies into the scale of the problem. The studies found that there was no significant predation problem from foxes. Studies by Aberdeen university, Bristol university and the Institute of Terrestrial Ecology have all confirmed that organised fox hunting does not contribute to fox control in any way. Therefore, the argument that fox hunts serve a useful purpose in fox control is not true. It is not backed up by independent scientific evidence.

The habitat question has not featured much in our debate. Some of my farming constituents have made the valid point to me that many habitat features have been retained for the purpose of fox hunting. I think that that argument is somewhat exaggerated. Many copses are maintained more for shooting than for hunting. Moreover, when one considers the level of destruction of hedgerows, trees and so on, fox hunting does not seem to have done a good job in protecting them. All hon. Members know of the major changes and reforms of the common agricultural policy. The kind of agricultural support in future will undoubtedly be for habitat protection and retention. Indeed, it will be for improving the habitat by planting hedgerows and trees. It is not true to say that a ban on fox hunting would affect the habitat.

Mr. Tredinnick : May I point out that the Quorn hunt in Leicestershire was given many coverts and woods specifically to save them from extinction? The Quorn meets and discusses how to protect that habitat. I think that there is a sub-committee specifically devoted to environmental protection of the woods in its hunt country.

Mr. Morley : I do not think that the Quorn hunt is a good example to include in this debate. I am sure that people involved in cruel sports have a love for the countryside and a respect for its habitat and visual image. I do not believe that if hunting were banned they would suddenly go out and start chopping down trees and woods, and ripping up hedgerows. I just do not believe that that would happen. What kind of people would do that? There are financial advantages for farming not only in maintaining but in improving the existing habitat. Therefore, that argument need not be taken into account. I do not want to go on, as many hon. Members wish to speak. There is not one intellectual argument in favour of cruel sports such as fox hunting, deer hunting and hare coursing which can stand up to critical, independent and scientific examination. The bottom line is : can we justify the infliction of prolonged deliberate pain and stress on wild animals for fun--for the enjoyment of human tormentors?

Fox hunting and other cruel sports belong to a different age--one of barbarity. We live in a modern society and many so-called traditional sports such as bear baiting, bull baiting and dog fights have been banned. There is no difference between those sports and that of fox hunting-- except, perhaps, that they happened in Southwark rather than in the rolling shires. The Bill is long overdue and it is welcome to the vast majority of the country. I hope that the House will support it.

Several Hon. Members rose--

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Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. The Standing Order limiting speeches to 10 minutes now comes into operation until 1 o'clock. 11.29 am

Mr. Roger Gale (Thanet, North) : I shall endeavour to contain my speech to less than 10 minutes. I agree with virtually everything that the hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley) said, and I shall extend some of his arguments.

I am saddened that the Bill is seen as an anti-fox hunting one. In common with many of my hon. Friends, I see it for what it is--the Wild Mammals (Protection) Bill. However, it is abundantly clear that some have sought to turn this debate into one for and against fox hunting. For that reason, I shall address that specific issue.

Those who are in favour of fox hunting argue that the Bill would damage conservation efforts. The hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe referred to that argument ; I believe that he was the first hon. Member to do so. The hunt is held up as a shining example of conservation. However, according to the Countryside Commission and the Nature Conservancy Council, since the war, 97 per cent. of traditional hay meadows have been destroyed as well as 99 per cent. of lowland heaths, 80 per cent. of chalk downlands, 80 per cent. of limestone grasslands, 80 per cent. of fens and mires, 90 per cent. of lowland ponds, 50 per cent. of ancient lowland woods and 150,000 miles of hedgerows. Many of those features existed on land owned or covered by hunts.

The Standing Conference on Countyside Sports has said that of all the reasons why landowners retain or plant woodland, creating fox coverts was the least significant. The chief motivating force was found to be the beauty of the landscape--

Sir Teddy Taylor : It was subsidies.

Mr. Gale : As my hon. Friend says, there are now other compelling set-aside reasons. People's concern about conservation has nothing to do with the hunt, but is a genuine desire to conserve the beauty of the land, which is loved by many.

It has been said that shooting is not an alternative form of controlling the fox population. My right hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Jopling) argued that foxes represent a major threat to farming. However, the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, over which my right hon. Friend presided with great distinction for a number of years, has estimated that the loss of lambs to foxes does not constitute an economically significant loss to the national farming community.

There has been much reference today to what are euphemistically regarded as the sporting connotations of fox hunting. The debate has been seen as one between town and country. I was brought up in rural Dorset and my family comes from Axminster in Devon. I have followed hounds on foot and many of my family have hunted in the past ; some, I believe, still do. I do not believe that I am regarded by any of the farming community in my constituency as being either anti-farm or anti-countryside. I have come to the view--it is a considered one--that the time has come when the hunt must end. I studied the article that appeared in Big Farm Weekly, to which

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reference has been made, and I discovered that the farming community put hunting low down its list of entertainment and sporting priorities.

I have discussed the Bill with farmers in my constituency. Some of them are keen rural sportsmen and, not surprisingly, they were concerned that I might lend my support to a Bill that they believed would signal the end to their favourite sports of shooting and fishing. I can see nothing in the Bill that takes a step towards such a ban. To advance that argument is about as sensible as saying that the 70 mph speed limit on the motorway is tantamount to declaring that there will be a ban on motor cars next. Neither is true--it is a question of degree.

I am not opposed to shooting or fishing as long as they are subject to proper controls and conventions. I am, of course, opposed to bad shooting and bad fishing.

Dr. Charles Goodson-Wickes (Wimbledon) : What is bad fishing?

Mr. Gale : Bad fishing was practised by those fishermen against whom the House legislated. They used to use lead shot, which poisoned the water and swans. They also used to leave their line across the water, which strangled wild fowl. That is bad fishing. There is such a thing and I am rather surprised that my hon. Friend does not recognise that.

Mr. John Townend : My hon. Friend is worried about cruelty to animals. Does he agree that to put a hook in the mouth of a fish, to play with it and then remove that hook and throw the fish back, so that the torture can recommence, is just as cruel as hunting?

Mr. Gale : I know that many people believe that. It would be naive not to suggest that some people who support the Bill also want to extend protection to fish and want an end to shooting and fishing. In common with my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Drake (Dame J. Fookes), I do not want to see that happen. I do not believe that such a ban is envisaged in the Bill.

Sir Charles Morrison (Devizes) : Has my hon. Friend considered the implications for commercial fishing?

Mr. Tony Banks : That is not relevant to the Bill. It is out of order.

Sir Charles Morrison : It is relevant to what my hon. Friend said about cruelty. In commercial fishing, the fish are dumped on a deck where they die slowly, out of their element. How does he justify that?

Mr. Gale : I know that my hon. Friend takes a keen interest in such matters and I should be happy to debate it with him either in the Tea Room or when we debate a Bill to control fishing.

The Bill relates to cruelty to wild animals. Earlier this morning I heard Enoch Powell on the radio. I read with great interest his erudite article that appeared in Countryweek in which he said : "Nor do I wish to see the courts and the police mobilised to prevent pursuits which from my own experience I know can be the source of the greatest pleasure and the best friendship I have been blessed with.

There are limits, of course. We have to restrain those who might otherwise present their neighbours with spectacles that revolt them."

Imagine if two members of the National Union of Mineworkers, to be emotive, took a whippet and a Jack

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Russell and allowed them to chase a domestic cat down a sewer pipe. Imagine if they put the Jack Russell in that pipe to pull the cat out by its tail and they then threw the cat down the street so that a whippet could chase and kill it. That might just be the cause of revulsion to Conservative Members, as well as to others. I watched the video of the Quorn hunt and apart from the fact that the animal was a fox, not a cat, what I have just described was almost precisely what happened. I can only say to the House that having seen the video of the entire hunt I had just one word for those who practice such activities : contempt.

It has been suggested that the film of that hunt, which was shown on television, was somehow strangely edited. The video runs for about an hour and a half with pictures of the Quorn so-called hunting. I did not see any acts of equestrian courage : I saw a great deal of brutality and sequences of infinite boredom. If any of my hon. Friends has not had the opportunity to see that entire video, I have it in my office and I shall make it available.

There is an alternative to hunting, which has already been mentioned many times. I do not believe that it is necessary to end rural sports simply because we want to give protection to wild mammals. Nor do I believe that the Bill necessarily spells the end of riding and its associated industries --saddle making, the manufacture of riding clothes and so on. My hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Waterside (Mr. Colvin) referred to drag hunting and said that it was not the same as fox hunting. I agree ; it is not. But there is at least one distinguished hon. Friend who has been a master of drag hounds and who, while he does not entirely share my view that fox hunting should now end, believes that drag hunting is a worthwhile sport which should, and could, be promoted instead.

I have one minute left in which to speak and I have not even touched on the thrust of the Bill. The time has come when wild mammals must be given the same protection as the Protection of Animals Act 1911 gave domestic animals. We have extended that to cover otters and dormice as endangered species and some cover has been given in legislation to badgers. The time has come for us to go forward into the 21st century and recognise that fox hunting and associated so-called pleasures must end. I shall support the Bill and I hope that many of my hon. Friends will do likewise.

11.40 am

Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West) : It is a pleasure to speak following the hon. Member for Thanet, North (Mr. Gale). I agreed with every word of his speech, which proved that this issue does not divide the parties.

From my point of view, the Bill is providing a good day's sport. Here we are gathered in our traditional hunting fashion--drab grey with accompanying gravy stains--apart from the hon. Member for Plymouth, Drake (Dame J. Fookes) who struck a brilliant colour and made an equally brilliant speech.

It is encouraging to note the way in which the argument is uniting hon. Members in all parts of the House. At a time of high political tension, it is refreshing to note that there are issues that unite us and cut across the party

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divide. The Bill has all-party support. As a sponsor of it, I thank Conservative Members who have sponsored or pledged support for it. Though unusual for me, I commend the article written by the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton (Mr. Clark), the Minister of State for Defence Procurement, in The Guardian on Thursday, and I am glad to see him in his place. It was unfortunately entitled, "Closing in for the Kill," but I suppose that the hunters are realising what it is like to be hunted, and they do not like it. They are being hunted inside and outside the House and they can see that the opposition ranged against them is equally as formidable as a large pack of hounds, except that we do not intend to rip them to pieces at the end of the hunt.

This is not an issue of unity within the Labour party even. I have received two letters, one of which has been referred to, the first having come from Councillor Richard Course, a Labour councillor, who I assume has written to all hon. Members. He describes himself as the Labour leader of the environment committee and leader of the planning sub-committee locally. I hope that he discussed the matter with his colleagues on those committees before sending out the letter, and I hope that Councillor Course has not used Enfield ratepayers' money for the purpose. I have no doubt that the matter will be taken up with the leader of the Labour group.

I have also received a letter from Baroness Mallalieu, a Labour peer who has been telling my hon. Friends and I that she is "very concerned that we should be working together to win the election, not alienating the support that we have in rural areas, which we shall need in order to secure a good working majority." I am not impressed by that, particularly as it comes from someone who failed to convince the electorate that she was worthy to be elected to this place. In the circumstances, I do not have much time for the Baroness Mallalieu.

The Bill is not just about fox hunting. It has been hijacked by a well- organised lobby outside working on behalf of the Field Sports Association, ably supported by some hon. Members. The Bill is about animal welfare and having respect for life forms other than our own. I suppose that in the end it is about morality, giving protection to wild animals. As my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) said, it is about giving the protection that domestic animals currently enjoy. It is a matter of principle and it is wrong that the present loophole should exist. We must now plug that loophole.

We are concerned with much more than just the activities of red-coated fools on horseback. The Bill is about the cruelty that other mammals have to suffer in the wild. I have before me some horrible evidence that has come to many hon. Members, though some has been sent specifically to me. One from Yorkshire is about hedgehogs being tortured to death. That involved schoolboys at Woldgate school in Yorkshire. It is disgusting what nasty little sadists can do. They should not be allowed to act in that way. So the Bill is not just about fox hunting.

Another case appeared in the Daily Mail, not a paper I am often heard quoting with respect in this place. It is about a man who battered a hedgehog to death and who was cleared in the court--I will name him because I want him to be famous--because, the article said : "Mr. Campbell, of High Street, Herne Bay said, This has been a nightmare. I couldn't believe anyone would be serious about charges.' "

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It may have been a nightmare for Mr. Campbell in court. It was nothing compared with the nightmare experienced by the hedgehog when he was beating it to death with a stick, which is what he did "after a heavy drinking night I realised what it was but to me a hedgehog is vermin."

I must tell Mr. Campbell of Herne Bay that he is the vermin. I hope that one day somebody gives him a good thrashing with a stick, and we will see whether he enjoys it.

Plenty of evidence is coming to us to show that the Bill will protect wildlife, and that is how and why we should be discussing it, rather than parts of the measure that would affect rural activities. The right hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) said that it was about banning entertainment. I suppose it is--the point I tried to make in an intervention--if one considers hunting an animal to death to be entertainment. It is not the sort of entertainment in which civilised people should indulge. No doubt it was entertainment to watch bears being baited or to watch cocks or dogs fighting. We banned those and we should put this so-called sport in the same category. Or is the right hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury suggesting that we should not have banned bear baiting, cock fighting and the like ? I do not think that even he would suggest that.

It is suggested, as part of the argument for the need to control vermin, that foxes are vermin. I have given my definition of vermin, and it does not include foxes. Foxes are the largest predators of rats and rabbits, and certainly rats are considered to be vermin. In any event, if the argument is about controlling vermin, why are many hunts bringing foxes into their territories ? I gather that there were no foxes on the Isle of Wight until they were introduced for hunting purposes. There were none in Australia, where they are now something of a menace, until they were introduced because people wanted to hunt them.

I have with me a list of hunts that are bringing foxes into their areas. They are the Beaufort, the Heythrop, the Cheshire, the Puckeridge and Thurlow, the Essex, the Cumberland Farmers, the Isle of Wight and the Bicester with Whaldon Chase. How can it be argued that we are talking about controlling vermin and that foxes are vermin when foxes are being bought in to provide a day's sport ? It makes no sense.

In a land beset with unemployment, nobody would cheerfully commend anybody to the dole queue, but the numbers that have been thrown about, like the arguments of the hunting lobby, have been plucked out of the air. They do not bear examination and the idea that many thousands of people would be out of jobs is ridiculous, even in the light of the surveys carried out by the huntsmen.

The 1983 standing conference representing country sports showed, after that organisation had commissioned an inquiry, that there were only about 750 full-time jobs involved. Drag hunting will become far more popular after the Bill becomes law. Whatever is said about the number of drag hunts, there will be many more, and that is the way in which people will be able to indulge in the good sport of riding to hounds, on a horse, through the countryside.

I should like to do that--I do not get much chance to do it through the streets of Newham. I appreciate the attraction of that, and drag hunting will provide all of it. It will also provide the jobs, and the future for the million

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horses said to be involved. I do not know whether we have a million horses in this country, but either way, the horses that we have can be employed in drag hunting.

All the arguments are on the side of those who support the Bill and I am delighted that they are coming from my political opponents on the Government Benches, for this issue unites the House and the country. I believe that there is a vast majority in the nation in favour of the Bill.

The Bill will not get through the House because we shall have an election on 9 April--I pluck a date out of the air, perhaps with more accuracy than some of the arguments that Tory Members have plucked out of the air--but whoever wins the election, a Bill will be introduced to do precisely the same as this Bill and I shall be in the Lobby to support it then, as I shall be today.

11.50 am

Mr. John Townend (Bridlington) : I do not shoot, fish or hunt, but I strongly oppose the Bill. My principal reason is that I passionately believe in individual freedom. If someone does not want to do something, that is his right, but he should not try to stop everyone else doing it. The House and society have had an unfortunate tendency, in recent years, to be busybodies, looking into people's lives.

I see the Bill in a wider context--as part of an orchestrated campaign to victimise a minority. I refer to the rural minority. Even in rural areas, most of the population are now from urban areas, commuters or retired. Hunting and other country sports are part of our traditional heritage and history. One has only to look at the wonderful paintings and etchings of the chase. The fact that those are minority pastimes is no argument for banning them.

Over the centuries, this country has developed a justified reputation for tolerance. The Bill will inevitably reduce tolerance of the views of others. I cannot help feeling that a certain amount of good, old-fashioned left-wing class prejudice is coming to the surface-- [Interruption.] If the hunting scene were part of the culture of an ethnic minority, anyone who tried to stop it would be strongly attacked by the Labour party.

The Bill stinks of hypocrisy. If its supporters are so concerned about the sufferings of animals, why have they never brought in a Bill to ban ritual killings like halal, as practised in this country by some minorities? It involves suspending live animals by the legs and slaughtering them alive. The Opposition do not ban that, because they are petrified of losing votes. It is strange that left wingers oppose the complete integration of ethnic communities and call for the freedom to keep their traditions and cultures, yet try to prevent the countrymen of England from pursuing traditional country sports that have been followed by our forefathers for centuries. The Bill is only the first stage in a concerted effort by the so-called animal rights lobby to ban all field sports. We have already heard the League Against Cruel Sports and the anti-hunting lobby say that when hunting is banned, they will move on to campaign against shooting and fishing. The Labour party will not admit that that will happen, because several million people who fish vote Labour. Once we start to ban, where will it end? The antis have said that they will go on to campaigning against shooting and fishing. How long will it be before they move on to boxing and wrestling? This country will become like it was in the puritan age under Oliver Cromwell.

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Whatever Labour Members say, the Bill will have a significant effect on economic prosperity in the countryside. That is particularly dangerous when all our farmers are under pressure. Although the amount of employment lost through the banning of hunting may not be great, if shooting and fishing are also banned, the tourist industry will be enormously affected. To introduce such measures now is economic madness.

The Bill is illogical. I do not know how anyone could support it on the ground of cruelty to animals and not answer the question why it does not include shooting and fishing. Why are mammals any different from birds or fish? It is surely more cruel to hook a fish, play with it, throw it back and repeat the torture than it is to hunt. Labour Members seek to raise the rights of animals to the level of the rights of human beings. They say that fox hunting must be banned because it is entertainment, but one of the greatest entertainments in life is enjoyed by the majority of the country and by many Opposition Front-Bench Members, including the deputy leader of the Labour party, and that is eating. If one believes in animal rights, what is more cruel than to breed animals and eat them for enjoyment? The only logical stance of the Bill's supporters is to oppose all those sports and, eventually, to oppose the rearing of animals for meat.

I have no arguments with vegetarians, as their position is logical. The Bill, however, is illogical and hypocritical and, if it is passed, it will be another blow to individual freedoms. I hope that it is defeated.

11.57 am

Mr. Paul Flynn (Newport, West) : It ill becomes Conservative Members to call the Labour party hypocritical. One of the arguments of the blood sports lobby is unemployment. Harking back to the memories of the great struggles of the past 15 years against unemployment in my constituency--the closures in the steel industry and the rundown of the mining industry--I cannot remember either of the two local hunts appearing on demonstrations or taking any part in the arguments against unemployment.

A key issue in the debate has been the odd contribution by the hon. Member for Romsey and Waterside (Mr. Colvin), who talked about the difference between the two forms of hunting. That is what this debate is all about. There is the alternative of drag hunting, which preserves all the lovely, attractive pageantry of the hunt ; the social occasion ; and the great joy that young people experience from the healthy exercise of riding horses through the countryside. Those can be preserved in a way that does not upset the majority of people in the country. Drag hunting is also safer, as many accidents occur when foxes are hunted in a live quarry, because of the uncertain route that is followed. They can be avoided if human intelligence has had a hand in plotting the route.

The hon. Member for Romsey and Waterside said that the difference between following a trail and following a live quarry is like kissing your sister. I have heard it expressed rather more graphically--that it is like making love without a climax. That is significant, because it points to what is behind the entertainment referred to by the right hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley). The whole purpose of hunting a live quarry is for

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people to get twisted and sordid pleasure out of killing an animal. That is the difference between the two sides in this debate. It is the only difference between those two methods of hunting. I received a letter from a constituent opposed to the Bill. She is involved in the hunting business. She invited me to watch, if the Bill is enacted, the destruction of the hounds. I have seen the kennels where the hounds are kept, but the hounds will not be destroyed. A plea must be made for the plight of the hounds, because they suffer over a long period. Their lives are now very brief and are ended after a short period. They do not enjoy the normal lifespan of a dog, which can be 10 or 12 years. They live for a maximum of four years if they are lucky, and their reward for years of service is a bullet in the head. Perhaps the worst aspect of the hunting ritual is cubbing, in which the hounds are trained to kill. They do not do it naturally ; they have to be trained by using the young cubs to bring the instinct out.

The nature of the foxhound is important--it is a creature bred to run more slowly than the fox. If it was as quick as the lurchers that are used for hare coursing, the hunt would be over in seconds. That might be a more efficient way of destroying the animal, but there would not be the fun and entertainment of the chase and the twisted--I would use the word "sadistic" --pleasure.

There is a great difference between the groups of people in hunting and the groups of people who love horses and horse riding. One of the most touching aspects of the matter has been the floods of letters that I have had from children and young people. I have not had one letter from anyone whom I could identify as a schoolchild which opposed the Bill. The sensitivity of the children in Clytha school, who sent me lovely pictures, and the children in Bassaleg comprehensive school in my constituency shows that they understand the issue. All the decent, compassionate instincts come welling out when they see what is happening. There is a generation divide in the country between those who understand the brutality of hunting and those who over many years have become blind to it.

The right hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Jopling) attempted to justify the continuation of hunting because of the destruction of lambs. That was a sad example of how desperate the threadbare argument is. He had to go back to Picture Post --back to the war. Even then, the story had other possible interpretations. In the war, many people, for understandable reasons, did not want to be at the front line. Many found pretexts for not going there, and excuses for coming back home.

The argument of the opponents of the Bill must be threadbare when they offer a single anecdote from the war to counter-balance the studies that have been made. Detailed studies were made in Scotland over five years, and they found that 24 per cent. of lambs in the highlands would be lost through stillbirth, malnutrition and hypothermia. Only 1 per cent., if that, are lost to foxes. The fox's traditional function in the countryside is that of a scavenger. Foxes take lambs that have no chance of continued life and those that are already dead, such as those that have been aborted.

A further three-year study of fox predation on lambs in Scotland found that leaving foxes in peace did not result in an increase in the number of lambs taken. We know that, in parts of the country where no fox hunting takes place, the number of foxes does not increase or decrease. The

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