House of Commons Hansard Debates for 18 Feb 1992

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in 1983. That is a direct consequence of the expansion in the economy which we have managed to secure since the Conservatives came to power in 1979.

I am not entirely surprised that the Opposition react so fiercely to any criticism of trade unions. Their Benches are probably the only sector of the economy in which trade union membership has held up. There has been a remarkable fall in the number of trade unionists, and it is clear that unless they are provided by a Labour Government with a number of the privileges which they so grossly abused in the bad old days, they will find it very difficult to recruit and keep members. I believe that they see themselves slipping into an inexorable decline.

Where do the priorities of the trade unionists lie ? I do not blame them for this, because it is part of the nature of trade unionism, but it is no more sensible to ask them to change their ways than to ask a leopard to change its spots. Their priorities lie with what they perceive as the-- usually short-term--well-being of their existing members. If one considers the opposition that they have put up to every change in the national health service and to every proposed change in the education service or any of the public services, one sees that their preoccupation is with their members' vested interests. It has little if anything to do with the state or the expectations of the consumer or customer of those services. The motion represents a sound and basically excellent statement about what we have seen and about what we have achieved. If the Labour party were ever to be returned to power, we should instantly see a return to the greedy, self- serving trade unionist closed shoppery which we have fortunately got rid of.

5.19 pm

Mr. David Clelland (Tyne Bridge) : As someone who has been a member of a trade union for 30 years, I do not recognise the description of trade unionists given by the hon. Member for Mid-Kent (Mr. Rowe). He seems to be wholly unaware of the fact that, far from being interested only in current members, trade unionists throughout the country were serving, until the Government had their way, on health authorities, local authorities and school governing bodies. Trade unionists are involved on behalf of young people who are not even old enough to work, let alone to be members of trade unions. It is not true to say that trade unionists are involved only with trade union members.

I am a member of the Amalgamated Engineering Union, and I am sponsored by that union. I make that point before it is raised by Conservative Members. I know that the Secretary of State is fond of pointing out such sponsorship.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Eric Forth) : So am I

Mr. Clelland : So is the Minister.

My union does not pay me any money, and no sponsoring union pays money to individual Members. My constituency party receives the magnificent sum of £150 every three months to help in the administration of the work that I do on the union's behalf. We also get help with election expenses. That is a far cry from the thousands of pounds that Conservative Members put in their own pockets every year when they represent private interests in this place.

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The motion talks about

"success in reforming industrial relations".

It also recognises the

"improvement in the underlying strength of the British economy". I am not sure whether the emphasis there should be on "under" or on "lying". The claim that the economy is improving will come as a surprise to the 6,000 people a week who are losing their jobs and to the 1,000 businesses a week which are going under. If that is an improvement in the economy, God help us if we ever see a downturn. As evidence of the improved industrial relations, the motion says : "the number of working days lost last year is provisionally estimated to have been the lowest total since records began in 1891".

That statement is backed up neither by statistics nor by facts. The number of working days lost last year was about 160 million. If unemployment is taken into account, the figure is a massive 780 million, which is hardly something to brag about. We know what the motion means, although it does not say it, which says something about the confidence of Government draftsmen. The motion is talking about the number of days lost because of industrial disputes.

That reduction would be welcome if it truly meant that industrial relations had improved, and if the number of disputes had fallen because of a happy and contented work force. I have no doubt that, in some sectors, industrial relations have improved with the passage of time, and with more enlightened employers and trade unions. It would be surprising if that were not so. That has happened in spite rather than because of Government interference in relationships between employers and employees.

It is interesting that the Government interfere with such regularity in the affairs of trade unions, when in every other aspect of life, their hands- off approach has led to the neglect of huge swathes of industry and public services. That has happened to such an extent that respected organisations such as the Builders Merchants Federation, with which I had lunch today, are expressing concern that the lack of Government input in the ills of the nation's economy is leading to problems in industry.

No one likes strikes, and if there are fewer of them for the right reasons, I welcome that. However, Conservative Members continually wheel out the argument about strikes, blow it up out of all proportion and then use it as a political weapon rather than as an argument for improving industrial relations.

Even during the 1970s, to which Conservative Members often refer, in the worst year that Conservative Members can dig up, the total number of days lost through strikes amounted only to 0.2 per cent. of the total days worked in that year. That figure compares with 130 million days, or 2 per cent., lost because of illness--10 times the number lost through strikes. It compares with 30 million days lost because of accidents at work every year--more than twice the figure for the worst year for strikes. As we have heard from construction workers visiting London today, 139 workers were killed in the industry during 1990-91. Tragically, there have recently been deaths and injuries in Monkwearmouth colliery to add to the sorry list. Some 50 million days were lost through smoking-related diseases. Why do the Government do nothing to cut those lost days if the days lost have so severely affected the British economy? When was the last time the Government

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legislated to improve health and safety at work, and on the prevention of illness? The answer is that they have never done that because their legislation is based on bigotry and dogma, and not on the interests of the economy.

Mr. Forth : Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will have a word with his hon. Friend the Member for Stretford (Mr. Lloyd) who worked with me to see through Committee the Offshore Safety Bill. It was designed precisely to improve health and safety at work for workers offshore.

Mr. Clelland : That was a welcome move, and I accept the Minister's point. However, I am talking about the bulk of British industry. The Health and Safety at Work, etc. Act 1974, to which the Secretary of State referred, was introduced by a Labour Government. Since then, this Government have cut the number of inspectors working for health and safety at work which has led to an increase in accidents at work.

What about unemployment? If lost working days are important to the economy, what can we say about the 624 million days lost every year as a result of Tory Government policies? Unemployment has played a part in making people fearful about standing up for their rights at work. To reduce the number of days lost by strikes from the 0.2 per cent. level, the Government have deliberately increased the number lost by unemployment by more than 50 times that figure. They then have the arrogance to say that that is a price worth paying. When the election comes, we shall see whether the loss of their own jobs is considered in the same light.

The Secretary of State asserts that all that has led to an improvement in the economy. His only piece of evidence for that is that productivity has improved. In the present circumstances, with manufacturing industry devastated by 13 years of Tory neglect and mismanagement, such a statement is frightening, but revealing. It is evidence of the ignorance of the Secretary of State about industry. Let me educate him about the meaning of the statistics on productivity which he trots out as evidence of recovery. Unfortunately, he seems to have gone off for his tea break. If he were running industry, I have no doubt that he would not allow his employees to have a tea break.

Let us suppose that the Secretary of State ran an industry. Let us suppose that he employed 100 people who produced 100 articles a day. A Tory Government recession comes along and 75 people have to be made redundant. The 25 people left may begin to produce 30 articles a day, which equals a 20 per cent. increase in productivity.

That is what the Secretary of State means when he talks about increasing productivity. What he does not say is that it has led to a 75 per cent. unemployment rate and to a 70 per cent. drop in output in the same company. That is what has happened to manufacturing industries under this Government. That is a sign not of recovery but of collapse. If the Secretary of State does not understand that, it is no wonder that we are in the middle of the second recession under his Government.

The Secretary of State tells us that another indicator of recovery is the number of people in employment. That point was repeated by the hon. Member for Mid-Kent. But they do not tell us that 60 per cent. of the new jobs created in the past 10 years were part-time, low-paid and low-skilled. But, of course, that represents a considerable constituency of people who will welcome the Labour party's proposals for a minimum wage.

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Another hardy annual in such debates is the winter of discontent. I am surprised that it has not yet been raised, but I am sure that it will be. Yet another is the slogan "Labour is in the pockets of the unions". But Conservative Members cannot have it both ways. The strikes of the winter of 1978-79 were against the then Labour Government's pay policy. So Conservative Members must answer the simple and obvious question. If Labour is in the pockets of the unions, why was there a winter of discontent?

For over 100 years, the trade unions have fought for the interests of people who work. They have raised people's standards of living, improved their conditions of work, extended their holidays, shortened their working week and, most importantly of all, given them dignity in work and ended the sweatshop exploitation that gave rise to the birth of trade unions in the first place. Every step of the way, the Tory party has opposed and denigrated the trade unions. It was Tory legislation which caused trade unions to realise that they had to become involved in politics to prevent them from being legislated out of existence. The past 13 years have reinforced that necessity. The people of Britain, whether they are in a trade union or not, would have been far worse off without the trade unions. That is why, in polls, the majority of people believe that the unions are still necessary, despite the lies and propaganda rained down upon them. The debate is entitled "Industrial Relations", but Conservative Members have said nothing about industrial relations. Where they have skirted round the edges of the subject, they have displayed the extent of their ignorance. They know that they will lose the election, so they are wheeling out all the old bogeymen to frighten the electorate. I can tell them that the electorate are terrified of the thought of another five years of prejudice, bigotry and mismanagement. That is why, despite Conservative Members scare tactics, they will be sitting on this side of the House after the general election.

5.31 pm

Mr. Lewis Stevens (Nuneaton) : I listened to the hon. Member for Tyne Bridge (Mr. Clelland) with interest. He criticised us for not talking about industrial relations and for skirting round the subject. But he and his hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) also avoided the subject of what industrial relations used to be like in Britain and how they have changed. They concentrated on unemployment, as if industrial relations were a secondary matter which had little to do with how industry performed. As the Government's motion shows, we have seen a remarkable change in the industrial relations climate in Britain, especially in engineering industries.

The Labour party has frequently turned its back on reform of industrial relations. I recall the 1960s when industry in the midlands, especially the car industry, was perpetually subject to strike threats. A Labour Minister at the time considered a document called "In Place of Strife". Many of us who were not inclined towards the views of the Labour party thought, nevertheless, that it had recognised that some action needed to be taken about the industrial climate. It was noticeable that the party turned its back on that and has turned its back on most of the trade union and industrial relations reforms that were so necessary.

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When the Labour party returned to office in 1974, it changed the industrial relations legislation that had been introduced. That is the threat to Britain today. Even after 13 years out of office, if the strange occurrence that the Labour party formed a Government arose, Labour would again turn back and give the trade unions a power which is neither necessary nor good for industry or the country. In the car industry and general engineering industry of the west midlands during the 1960s and 1970s, the industrial relations climate and the bias towards the trade union movement and its power was such that the threat of strike was almost farcical to the press and television, both locally and nationally. Strikes were almost expected. The threat of strikes also created a climate in which management was almost incapable of managing as it should. I do not blame all that happened in those industries in the 1960s and 1970s on the trade unions. I accept that much of what happened was the responsibility of management.

The way in which the power bases in the car and general engineering industries were formed meant, in effect, that decisions were made to go nowhere. There was a reluctance to make the changes that were necessary on both sides. The consequence was stagnation. Let us consider the level of car production for the home market in about 1971, the way in which the market was penetrated by foreign manufacturers, how our proportion of the home market dropped, how the car industry performed and what state it was in. It is clear to me that industrial relations within the industry were a major factor in its lack of development and the eventual demise of a great deal of it.

As a result in large measure of the industrial relations changes brought about by the Government, a different approach to the needs of industry has developed between employees and trade unions. I am not one who suggests that there is no place for the trade union movement in industry and in white collar sectors. I believe that unions are an important aspect and that they have an important role to play. I do not believe that we should move anywhere near the arrangement in Europe where employees automatically sit on the board of directors, but trade unions have an important role to play.

As a result at least in part of the changes that have taken place in industrial relations, the relationship between employers and employees is now on a much more realistic basis. That is to the benefit of all in the company. One of our great weaknesses as employers and industrialists has been our inability to manage change, yet business is always about managing change, however one looks at it and whether in manufacturing or the service industries. We now see much more willingness by employers to involve employees in the management of that change and development. That takes us forward.

Mr. Clelland : If industrial relations have improved in the past 13 years to the degree that the hon. Gentleman describes--he seems to describe improvements in industrial relations purely on the basis of days lost through strikes--can he explain why that improvement in industrial relations is matched by a decline in manufacturing industry to such an extent that it is at its lowest level in its history?

Mr. Stevens : I have not mentioned the reduction in days lost in strikes. I have deliberately avoided mentioning

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that. The hon. Gentleman asked why the present production level has declined. It is because we are in recession. I also remind him that the unit production of people in industry has increased substantially in the past 13 years. The hon. Gentleman earlier did a simple calculation to show that, if one produces less with fewer people, there is automatically an increase in productivity. That is absolute nonsense. It is not a fact. It is a fact that one can reduce the unit cost by not having the surplus labour that we introduced into some industries in the 1960s and 1970s. To a large extent, the market will demand that increased productivity. It will determine what one can sell and how much one needs to make to fill the market. Unless we ensure that unit costs continue to decrease compared with those of our competitors, we shall not be able to compete.

In many industries, we have a better relationship between employer and employee and, as a result, there have been substantial productivity gains and improvements in the control of unit costs. After 13 years of Conservative government, we are more competitive and industrial relations have had a part to play. If we dismiss industrial relations and do not recognise that they have had a substantial effect on how we manage change and develop our industries, we shall be cutting out an important aspect of our industrial life.

Mr. Clelland : I was not dismissing industrial relations or saying that they had not been an important factor in the performance of industry. I accept that they have been. I was referring to the emphasis that the hon. Gentleman placed on what he described as the "improvement" in industrial relations during the past 13 years. That has not been matched by a similar improvement in the performance of our industry.

Mr. Stevens : In many places it has been matched by a distinct improvement in our competitiveness abroad. For example, consider the state of our machine tool industry in the 1970s. Consider how what had been one of the strongest industries in the country was allowed virtually to disappear, not because of the trade unions but because of what happened in the industry. We have now built up a machine tool industry which can compete with the best in the world, especially in specialist areas.

Mr. Clelland : It is much smaller.

Mr. Stevens : It is smaller, and it is able to compete in technology, on price and because of the relationships within the industry.

The hon. Member for Tyne Bridge is in danger of talking down British industrial units, which are not inferior beings, although Opposition Members often give that impression. They are able to compete and they will be able to compete even better provided that we maintain a balance in the industrial relations climate.

Mr. Dennis Turner (Wolverhampton, South-East) : The hon. Gentleman is talking about the west midlands. He must know that 37 per cent. of manufacturing capacity has been lost there, and that 300,000 skilled engineering jobs have been wiped away. He is talking about what he considers the bad old days of the 1970s. In my area, there was an unemployment rate of under 2 per cent. in the 1970s and today it is 20 per cent. How can the hon. Gentleman argue about that? To many of my constituents,

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the good old days were in the 1960s and 1970s, when they had jobs and we were producing at home and exporting abroad.

Mr. Stevens : The hon. Gentleman is right. In the 1960s, we were producing and exporting in the west midlands--my home area. I worked in several industries in that area. However, we were not improving our productivity to match that of our competitors abroad. They came in and took our markets, at home and abroad.

Mr. Turner : Because of lack of investment.

Mr. Stevens : One may criticise investment, which brings me back to something I said earlier about the attitude of management and unions in some of our engineering companies. There was a reluctance to change and the same reluctance to invest. Management and employees are now much more willing to accept change and to go forward. We must look to that in the future.

Some of our old industries in the west midlands--especially in the black country, near the constituency of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South- East (Mr. Turner)--were not the type of steel industries which would develop. Some were old industries.

Mr. Turner : We could debate that.

Mr. Stevens : We can debate it. However, some of the methods used in, for example, some rolling mills in the 1950s and 1960s had to be changed.

Mr. David Evennett (Erith and Crayford) : Does my hon. Friend agree that a combination of bad Government policies in the mid-1970s, bad practice and bad management contributed to our losing our markets and our world share, with the result that we have had more unemployment and less industry?

Mr. Stevens : We did not do ourselves a lot of favours in many different directives-- [Hon. Members :-- "Directives?"] I am sorry, I meant directions. I am so used to being in the European Standing Committees that the word "directives" comes readily to mind. There have been important developments which are to be welcomed and they have been encouraged by legislation. Changes in manufacturing industries have been dramatic. We could not have envisaged the step forward in technology 10 or 15 years ago. The speed of change is faster than anything that we had previously recognised, and that makes good industrial relations concepts-- which I hope we now have--even more important.

There has been a change in industrial relations and the emphasis is now on the white collar side. Opposition Members may correct me, but I think that there are now probably more people in white collar unions than in the blue collar unions that we used to accept as the main force.

Industrial relations are also required in white collar unions. In the 1960s they were not renowned for going on strike or bringing everything to a halt, but they are an important aspect of legislation. Some white collar unions have a direct relationship with industry, but many others are involved in the public sector and service industries.

We have introduced legislation, such as doing away with the closed shop. I hope that we shall take a decision about allowing people to join the union of their choice. I was disappointed that we did not introduce legislation to make contracts legally binding. I do not think that many

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European systems of industrial relations are better than ours, but I should have been happier if legally binding agreements had been introduced. We have not done so in the latest proposals, but we are moving towards giving people more freedom of choice when joining unions and that is correct, especially for white collar unions. White collar unions and some other unions in the public sector do not pose the same threat to industry and to production, but, should they wish to take action under the old legislation, they would pose a threat to services. That was what happened in 1979 in the winter of discontent. I would not have mentioned that, but the hon. Member for Tyne Bridge asked why it happened if the Labour party was supposed to be in the pocket of the trade unions.

If there is enough scope, if enough pressure is brought to bear and if the Government react to that pressure time and again, the point is reached eventually when even a Labour Government cannot continue in that vein. There comes a point when it is too much and the Government must say enough is enough. In the 1970s, there were pressures not only from the trade union movement and other such groups but from other areas, such as the International Monetary Fund, as I recall. One cannot divorce the two ; I do not believe that we should blame the trade unions for all the decisions made by the Labour Government between 1974 and 1979. That Government managed to make enough decisions during that time to stand on their own feet.

Mr. Tony Lloyd (Stretford) : In the hon. Gentleman's explanation of the winter of discontent, would he apply the same logic to the spate of scandals in the City and the sleaze and corruption in the private sector that we have seen recently? Would he apply the same logic to the major accidents and disasters that have taken place? Would he agree that the Government are totally indifferent to such matters and have allowed them to happen?

Mr. Stevens : The Government are certainly not indifferent. We have introduced more measures to regulate the City than any Government I can remember. No Conservative Member supports the activities that have come to light in the City in the past few years. Measures have been taken to try to close the loopholes and to stop abuses. Situations change, and one must consider them and what controls them. The City could not cope with a changing situation and that allowed some people to take advantage of and abuse the system, to the disadvantage and deprivation of others.

Mr. Clelland : I cannot allow the hon. Gentleman to get away with his explanation of what happened during the winter of discontent. He contends that the trade unions got away with everything that they wanted under the previous Labour Government, but that does not bear any relation to what happened. He will recall that a two-year pay policy operated, in which the trade unions and the Government co-operated to keep down pay in order to beat inflation. It was a successful policy. It was only when the Labour Government wanted to extend the policy for a further period that there was an argument between the Government and the trade unions. The trade unions did

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not get their own way. The reason for the winter of discontent was that the Labour Government were not willing to give the trade unions their own way.

Mr. Stevens : The hon. Gentleman forgets that, by the time the Conservatives came into office in 1979, we had bills to meet and commitments to honour as a result of the policies of the previous Labour Government. In addition, we had to honour the promises that we made at that time.

An industrial relations revolution has taken place and our attraction to inward investors, which my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State mentioned, is of enormous importance. In 1990, 350 decisions were taken by companies to invest in this country, bringing 62,000 jobs here, adding to the 240,000 jobs already created by inward investment. Our specialised manufacturing industries have been relatively successful over the years and are still, but we are also attracting some of the mass production industries from abroad, in particular from Japan.

Some countries are much more skilled and adept at mass production industries than ourselves. However, if we have freedom to develop new relations in industry, we can look forward to those industries encouraging technology, investment, and exports and meeting the demand in the home market.

In the 1960s, we had the worst industrial relations possibly of the century. The morale of the work force went down. If there was a strike, there were neither winners nor losers. Instead, discontent prevailed within industry and that generated the possibility of another strike. Not all conflicts were strikes : many were disputes and arguments. Of course that did not apply to every industry--some industries worked quite well--but we experienced apathy towards change and development.

Today, there is an absence of confrontation between employers and employees in industrial relations. We have co-operation such as involvement in training and the Government have taken more initiatives on training and put more money into that than any previous Government. Co-operation is the way forward and that comes from trust and not from the enforcement of the will of one party on the other.

The motion applauds the Government's policies and their proposals for the future. That is the way forward for industrial relations, rather than returning to a system in which the trade unions had almost total control over the business. Mutual interest between management and employees, and between the country and the Government, is the key. That is what the Government have laid the foundations for, but that strategy will not succeed if our policies are reversed by any future Government.

5.54 pm

Mr. James Wallace (Orkney and Shetland) : In many respects, this has been a somewhat depressing debate. My heart sank when I heard the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Stevens) announce that he intended to talk about the car industry of the west midlands, because all he did was pause and then talk about the situation in the 1960s and the 1970s. That summed up just how backward-looking so much of this debate has been.

To his credit, the hon. Gentleman eventually introduced a ray of sunshine and a glimmer of hope when he praised increasing employee involvement in decisions affecting the management of change. It is a pity that he

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then allowed himself to be sidetracked to the 1970s and the winter of discontent of 1979. The hon. Gentleman concluded with a flourish when he announced that it was necessary to reconsider the 1960s. Too much time today has been spent looking back rather than looking forward.

I do not believe there will be any prizes for those who guess the purpose of today's debate. Those who were present during the clamour of the Secretary of State's speech will be aware that it had little to do with industrial relations. The language used by the right hon. and learned Gentleman was, at times, profoundly depressing--for example, he described the trade union leaders of today as dinosaurs. Even the hon. Member for Mid -Kent (Mr. Rowe), who is usually one of the more modest and moderate of Conservative Members, totally dismissed all trade unionists and tarred them with a very black brush.

My party has never had any mandate to argue the case or to defend the actions of those trade unions, which, at times, have been extremely irresponsible. However, this debate has done a great disservice to the hundreds of thousands of trade union officials, at all levels, and trade union members who have worked so hard for their fellow workers by promoting health and safety ideas and negotiating decent deals. To allow such an important debate as this to be conducted in terms of seeing those on the opposite side of the argument as the enemy does nothing constructive for industrial relations.

It is clear that the Secretary of State's strategy was to reawaken the anxieties and fears that the Government believe are deeply buried in the national psyche about the historic financial ties between the Labour party and the trade unions. In the bygone age of the winter of discontent and the like, it was easier to point an accusing finger at certain trade union activities and the public dislocation caused by them.

The Government are seeking to buttress their attack with the largely irrelevant Green Paper that was published last year. That document and this debate show that they are bankrupt of positive ideas about what to do regarding industrial relations. They have found it necessary to create a smokescreen to hide the real issue--for more than 3 million of our fellow citizens, it is not a question of whether we have good or bad industrial relations, because they do not have a job in which to experience an employer-employee relationship. We are now faced with the deepest recession since the 1930s and the problem of unemployment is getting worse, not better. There have been a record number of business failures and home repossessions, but the Government's sole response has been to cite a record about the lowest number of days lost through strikes. Some might conclude that, given that economic activity is at a snail's pace, it is hardly surprising that those who are fortunate enough to be in work are reluctant to go on a go-slow or to strike.

Mr. Barry Field (Isle of Wight) : The hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends speak much about centralisation. They believe that, for example, the public services should be decentralised down to the lowest denominator in terms of local government. If the hon. Gentleman supports regional pay bargaining, will he explain why he opposes the concept of trust hospitals negotiating local pay agreements ?

Mr. Wallace : The hon. Gentleman will be aware that regional pay bargaining is happening in the private sector.

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We believe that it will continue and that it would be artificial to try to return to a system of centralised pay bargaining. Our policy on regional pay bargaining in the public sector is very much related to our policy to set up regional assemblies throughout England, with national parliaments for Scotland and Wales, which, if they are to have any meaningful powers, must have the power to determine pay in the public sector over the areas for which they are responsible. We have objected to trust hospitals in many areas. We do not necessarily oppose local management, but we strongly oppose the lack of local accountability and taking hospitals away from the accountability of local health authorities in England and Scotland. I fear that, if I delved further into health matters, I would be called to order.

The occupants of this Bench have been willing in the past to support a number of measures for changes in employment law. We supported the Government's moves to erode the effects of the closed shop, the limitations placed on secondary picketing and the need for greater accountability. Indeed, we were ahead of the game in promoting the greater accountability of trade union leaders to their members through secret postal ballots. We also supported the Government in the abolition of the dock labour scheme.

Equally, we share the analysis that higher unemployment would be an inevitable consequence of a national minimum wage, although the Secretary of State's hyped-up figure of 2 million more unemployed did not help the credibility of that argument.

Mr. Forth : In defence of my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State, I should make it clear that our range of estimates of job losses as a consequence of a statutory national minimum wage, range from as few as 100,000-- [Interruption.] --up to 2 million if full differentials were restored on top of a statutory national minimum wage. So there is a range of possibilities of job losses, depending on the circumstances, although I am surprised that Opposition Members seem satisfied that only--I emphasise "only"--100, 000 jobs might be lost at the lower end of the range.

Mr. Wallace : That was an interesting clarification. I have always found the figure of 2 million incredible at the top end. It was interesting to hear the Minister's explanation and the premises on which the range of figures were calculated. As I said, my hon. Friends and I fear that unemployment would be a consequence. If the purpose of a minimum wage is to combat poverty, regrettably, unemployment is perhaps the most direct route to poverty. We believe that a social dimension of the European Community is an essential part of the development of the EC, yet we have not been uncritical of the form in which some of the proposals have come forward. For example, we were sceptical of the provisions of the social chapter in the draft Maastricht treaty. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) said in the debate last December, our chosen course would not have been unilaterally to opt out, but

"we would have wished to see those clauses altered. Indeed, they could have been altered if the Government had not wasted their bargaining power in attempts to defend the indefensible, attack the trivial and obtain the illusory".--[ Official Report, 18 December 1991 ; Vol. 201, c. 303.]

Against that background, we have supported many changes that have occurred. The latest set of proposals

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were announced by the Government last month and are referred to in the motion. But the Secretary of State's speech was so negative that he did not even mention some of the positive changes that he is suggesting.

The positive proposals, trailed in the Green Paper and announced last month, seem more an attempt to play the union card and, with such a confrontational approach, they are more likely to damage industrial relations than to tackle the real issues and the crisis facing industry. We are retreating more and more into the rhetoric and battles of the 1970s and early 1980s, rather than setting an agenda which is relevant for radical action in the 1990s and beyond.

Mr. Evennett : The hon. Gentleman said much about what he claims to be the negative aspects of our proposals. We are left in doubt about his party's positive policies for industrial relations. Does he agree that to return trade unions to their members and to have secret ballots is not negative but the way forward?

Mr. Wallace : If the hon. Gentleman will be patient, he will hear what my party has to propose. Given that my party has been proposing co- ownership and partnership in industry since the days of David Lloyd George, the hon. Gentleman is displaying considerable ignorance if he does not know what our policies are. My hon. Friends and I voted for the concept of postal and secret ballots. Even the Minister will acknowledge that we supported those measures. I said that we had had a negative approach from the Secretary of State today. Although he announced some proposals last month, he did not even refer to them today.

The Financial Times, referring to the Green Paper published last July, wrote :

"it is hard to detect a groundswell of opinion that further legislation is needed at all. And there is a case--the more telling because it is made by the right-wing Adam Smith Institute--that the government has gone too far in interfering in unions already cut down to size by a decade of reforms. The government has frequently insisted that its aim is to reform the unions, not destroy them. Mr. Howard's green paper will not destroy the unions, but nor will it improve industrial relations nor enhance the competitiveness of the British economy."

There is also some polling evidence that the public's tolerance is being strained by the present negative approach. In an NOP poll last July, only 18 per cent. felt that more legislation was needed, while 66 per cent. thought that enough had been done already. By contrast, 84 per cent. wanted action to tackle unemployment and 80 per cent. wanted initiatives to improve training.

For most people, better industrial relations is more about improved co- operation, partnership and consultation than about court injunctions and whittling away some remaining employee rights. The Minister spoke about the rights of employees, and we have heard him on about that in the past. Although we agree that an employee should have the right not to join a trade union, just as he has the right to join, that right to join must not be unduly emasculated by the emasculation of trade unions. For the right to union membership to mean anything, employers should recognise the right of unions to negotiate on behalf of their members. That is not a recipe for lightning strikes or the exploitation of union members ; it is simply a guarantee of the fundamental right to union membership.

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Liberal Democrats also see employees' rights as going far beyond the realms of trade union affairs. To avoid disputes in the first place, substantial alterations must be made to our working practices. In spite of the employment legislation of the last decade, in many places of work, industry is trapped in old thinking and old practices. In that, as in many other areas, Britain has fallen behind the common practice of our European neighbours and the requirements of a modern economy for a flexible, highly skilled and highly motivated work force.

As the Prime Minister constantly reminds us, this is the age of the citizen and citizens charters, but lacking from all the glossy literature and ministerial statements has been any effort to define the rights of the citizen at his or her place of work. If the Secretary of State really wants to propose something worthwhile and radical in industrial relations, he should examine proposals to invest the citizen with real rights of decision -making at the place of work.

Liberal Democrats, and our predecessors, have a long history of advocating more rights of participation and partnership. As long ago as 1928, David Lloyd George identified industrial confrontation as a drag on economic efficiency and performance and charted a vision of better industrial co- operation. Today, we identify the fact that patterns of work have become more diffuse. Even the Government point to an increase in part-time working. Advances in technology open up the prospect of more home working, but we must not forget the home working that already occurs and that at times leads to the exploitation of some people who cannot defend themselves. A new charter for the citizen at work must guarantee individual rights in his or her workplace--a right to demand access to participation in decision-making, a right to consultation on matters affecting employee interests, a right to share in the profits and ownership of the firm and a right of access to relevant information. Those who were present during the intervention of the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) in the Secretary of State's speech will recall that he mentioned a closure that took place in which the management concealed from the employees orders worth £16 million or £17 million. Those employees should have had a right to that information. One wonders whether the Government recognise that employees should have such rights. If they do not, why not? Employees should also have the right to join or not join a trade union and the right to a contract that guarantees equal opportunities.

I accept that, in times past, our formula would have been to impose appropriate structures. However, given flexible work patterns, a far better approach for the 1990s is to endow employees with statutory rights and let employers and work forces together work out how best they may be implemented.

Mr. Barry Field : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Wallace : No, I have already given way to the hon. Gentleman, who made a rather irrelevant point. I do not wish to give way again. We should propose a new industrial partnership agency to offer advice and assistance and, ultimately, in the event of an employer defaulting, to step in and ensure that employees' rights are respected.

The Government's latest proposals amount to a rag-bag of measures, some worthwhile and others not.

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