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Mr. Cryer : He was on Ecstasy.

Mr. Bennett : Although perfectly legitimate devices for drawing attention to grievances or problems exist, there are advantages in following rules and regulations that encourage and facilitate debates, rather than having to look for ways of breaking rules and regulations to draw attention to a problem. We are asking the Minister to give us a natural channel of rules and regulations to work through, rather than having to look for extra-parliamentary activities.

I could cry, "I spy strangers," at this point and create a vote. If that is done in the middle of Prime Minister's Question Time, it attracts more publicity to an issue than many hours of debate in a statutory instruments committee. I understand that there are plenty of ways to draw attention to a problem, but let us try to do it properly.

An even more worrying remark that the Minister made was that the Government were taking matters away from Parliament and giving them to local inquiries. A Minister would then have the power to override a local inquiry. He then said that, if that Minister did not do his work properly, the power would be given to the courts. I resent the idea that Parliament-- the high court of the land--should hand over decisions to the judiciary. I do not wish to spin out the debate, even for a minute or two, discussing the merits of our judges, but I have more trust in most Tory Ministers than I have in most judges.

Mr. McLoughlin : I know about that concern, because it was raised by the hon. Member for Bradford--

Mr. Cryer : South.

Mr. McLoughlin : I shall get it right by the end of the night. I agree that that would be the last recourse that any hon. Member would take, but any Minister considering changing the order would bear that in mind. The responsibility would not stop at the Minister, because he would be challengeable elsewhere.

Mr. Bennett : I thank the Minister for that information. However, to send a marker to the House of Lords, it is important that we divide on one group of amendments, and it would be far simpler to divide on new clause 1. The House of Lords may prefer to return to one of the other amendments, but I hope that it will pursue the Government on that.

Mr. Moate : Will the hon. Gentleman deal with the specific point that I tried to address to him? Does he concede that a road inquiry can be just as controversial--probably more so because there are more of them-- than a railway inquiry? If the new clause argues that a negative procedure of the House should apply to any situation where a Minister changes or overrules an inspector's decision, why does not the hon. Gentleman apply exactly the same argument to highways, for instance?

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Mr. Bennett : I would second that as a proposal if the hon. Gentleman would care to table it as an amendment. Most highway orders are done by statutory instrument so it would be merely a question of making statutory instruments for highway matters subject to negative procedure, where there is a difference between what the inspector recommends and what the Secretary of State intends to do. The occasions when the Secretary of State decides to modify an order are rare and there is a strong reason for insisting that this decision should be accountable to Parliament.

Mr. Spearing : Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a great distinction between the compulsory purchase of highways, buildings or plant and the creation of a transport system, where power as well as property are involved, and where the making of law as distinct from the purchasing of property is a great feature? Moreover, much of the legal infrastructure for policing and control already exists with regard to highways, whereas in any transport system it must be specific.

Mr. Bennett : Yes, I accept that.

I hope that the two meetings to which I referred are now over and that we can divide on the new clause.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time :

The House divided : Ayes 41, Noes 173.

Division No. 89] [6.08 pm

AYES

Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

Bellotti, David

Benton, Joseph

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Campbell-Savours, D. N.

Carr, Michael

Clwyd, Mrs Ann

Corbett, Robin

Cox, Tom

Dalyell, Tam

Dixon, Don

Fearn, Ronald

Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n)

Fisher, Mark

Fyfe, Maria

Godman, Dr Norman A.

Gordon, Mildred

Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)

Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

Haynes, Frank

Howells, Geraint

Kirkwood, Archy

Leighton, Ron

McFall, John

Madden, Max

Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

Meale, Alan

Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

Nellist, Dave

Rooney, Terence

Salmond, Alex

Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

Skinner, Dennis

Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

Spearing, Nigel

Thomas, Dr Dafydd Elis

Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)

Vaz, Keith

Watson, Mike (Glasgow, C)

Williams, Rt Hon Alan

Tellers for the Ayes

Mr. Bob Cryer and

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett.

NOES

Adley, Robert

Alexander, Richard

Alison, Rt Hon Michael

Amos, Alan

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Atkinson, David

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

Batiste, Spencer

Beggs, Roy

Bellingham, Henry

Bendall, Vivian

Benyon, W.

Biffen, Rt Hon John

Blackburn, Dr John G.

Boscawen, Hon Robert

Boswell, Tim

Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

Bowis, John

Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard

Brandon-Bravo, Martin

Brazier, Julian

Bright, Graham

Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

Buck, Sir Antony

Burns, Simon

Burt, Alistair

Butler, Chris

Butterfill, John

Carlisle, John, (Luton N)

Carrington, Matthew

Cash, William

Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda

Channon, Rt Hon Paul

Clark, Rt Hon Alan (Plymouth)

Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

Clark, Rt Hon Sir William

Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

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