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The Maastricht treaty has been the underlying theme of the debate. A number of hon. Members have expressed concern about the diminution of the sovereignty both of this House and of the British people. My belief is that on many of the great issues, the countries of Europe should try to speak with a single voice. I want those countries to work together more closely on things that we can do better together. Europe is stronger when we do that, whether it be on trade, defence or in our relations with the rest of the world.Working more closely together does not necessarily require power to be centralised in Brussels or decisions to be taken by appointed bureaucracies. As the years go by and as the Community develops, we must make a judgment on how the balance between the will of the Government and the House, working with others in Europe, is best served. The words that I used were more or less a paraphrase of those used by my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) in her important speech in Bruges. I agree with every word. What we have contrived to do in Europe is to begin, perhaps for the first time in the past 20 or 25 years, to put the brakes on that "inevitable" move, which some of our European partners still wish to happen, towards a single structure, where every area of political endeavour would be contained within the treaty of Rome and would therefore depend on a Commission initiative and probably on a qualified majority vote, and would then be justiciable under the European Court of Justice.
My hon. Friends are right to say that that is the way that many of our partners want the Community to move, and they have done so for many years. The great success of Maastricht is that at last we have begun to shape a wider European union, which will enable us, on a number of crucial issues that go to the heart of what being a nation means--foreign, defence, interior and justice policies--to begin to win the argument that agreements between 12 nation states, taken freely and through co-operating together, are not, by definition, qualitatively worse than agreements taken inside the treaty. Of course, there are many areas such as trade and agriculture where we have agreed that the Commission has competence. We must do as my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East has done almost throughout his political lifetime, which is to fight to bring about rational improvements in the common agricultural policy.
The Bill, which was introduced in such a distinguished way by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills, is mistaken, not only because it invites the House to abdicate its responsibilities, but because the sort of question that would be put--as was evident in the previous referendum--in all likelihood would reflect the differing views within the House. The treaty that we have, and to which the House will return in the next Parliament when a Bill will be laid before it to amend the European Communities Act, will require the approval of the House as a necessary pre- condition of ratification by the Government. I have no doubt that that Bill will receive careful scrutiny and will be the subject of passionate debate by my hon. Friends.
I am sure, as I have been since I came into the House, that the House will express the will of the British people in the matter. That will be expressed by freely elected
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Members of the House in the way that British democracy has traditionally settled these matters, whether they be large or small. 1.10 pmMr. Bob Cryer (Bradford, South) : There is a certain irony in the fact that we are debating in an interesting, informative and illuminating way the question of a referendum on the Common Market on a Friday when the Chairman of the Select Committee on Sittings of the House has held a press conference on its report which proposes doing away with 10 Friday sittings. Today's exchange of opinion demonstrates the value of Friday sittings and the importance of being here to exchange ideas. I shall be as brief as I can, because I know that other hon. Members want to speak.
There is and has been a continuing, sustained drive towards a western European state : there is no question about that. We have seen an erosion of the ability of an elected United Kingdom Government to make decisions in a number of areas. The Maastricht summit advanced that position still further. I shall come to details in a moment.
Let me remind the House of the cost of our membership of the Common Market. Over the past 10 years it has cost us £14,000 million. That is our net contribution after all the receipts from the Common Market have been paid back. It is after taking into account all those notices saying, "Europe helps Bradford", or Tadcaster, or Tamworth, or wherever it is. All those grants from the Common Market are simply some of our own money coming back. For the past 10 years, after all those grants have been taken into account, we have paid £14 billion. The payment this year will be of the order of £3 billion. New demands are being made for a massive increase in the United Kingdom contribution, which I hope this Government and the next Labour Government will resist.
I support the idea of nations working together as a group of equal nation states without one nation being subordinate to another. I fear that we are becoming subordinate because of the minority position that we so often occupy. Decisions, against which we have voted, are taken by the Council of Ministers, but, as they are majority decisions, the Commission implements them and we can do nothing about it.
Mr. Garel-Jones : The hon. Gentleman is making an interesting speech. Is he aware that, ever since the Single European Act, Britain has been outvoted, I think I am right in saying, on only four occasions, two of which were on the same issue? The Federal Republic, to which the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) referred, has been outvoted more often than that on a single day.
Mr. Cryer : I am about to give examples of voting of a relative minor but important character to demonstrate what has been going on. The treaty of Rome was bad enough. It limited our freedom of movement, as every treaty does : there is no question about that. No other treaty provides for legislation affecting the United Kingdom. Regulations have direct application and directives are required to be applied through subordinate legislation in this country. No other treaty inhibits and curtails the elected Government of the day as does the treaty of Rome. That was extended by the Single European Act.
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The Single European Act was a bitter disappointment to its Italian author, Altiero Spinelli, who had a driving ambition to see a united states of western Europe. His disappointment was my pleasure because I was keen that his ambition should not be realised. However, it was a step on the way. Maastricht represents another step. If Altiero Spinelli were alive today, I am sure that he would welcome it with open arms.There was widespread resentment and disappointment in the European Parliament about the Single European Act because there is a drive towards the federalism of a united states of western Europe. It is a very important issue which should be put to the people. Every time there are Home Office questions there are answers to questions about the integration of 1992, the year that we are in now. It would not be a bad year in which to have a referendum on the whole issue : the question of drugs, terrorism, the movement of illegal armaments and animal diseases. Only this week we received a letter and a brochure from an organisation that is concerned about the possible removal of barriers to the free movement of animals and the increase of rabies. In the context of the sunshine vision that the pro- marketeers so often maintain, this may all seem to be relatively trivial, but these matters make up the day-to-day way in which we live and they are important. We ought, therefore, to take them into account and to be prepared to invoke these arguments in the referendum provided for by the Bill. The Bill is imperfect. I intend to turn to its imperfections later.
All these matters are of great concern to our people. Let me give an illustration of the way in which the Government's ability, within the great scheme of things within the Common Market, is limited. A number of orders are going through the House. The House knows that I am the Chairman of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Therefore, we look at all the 1,500 to 2,000 statutory instruments that proceed through the House, having been produced by the Government each year. A significant proportion of those statutory instruments are based on EEC directives. Within the great vision that is put forward, what are the two most recent statutory instruments? One is for the harmonisation of lawnmower noise.
The Minister said that we want to work closely together. Yes, we do, but do we want to be compelled to work together in such a way that we are bound by law to operate all our lawnmowers at the same level of noise and that it would be an offence to exceed that level? That is the character of the Common Market. It is not a great union of nations. It amounts to a pettifogging application of bureaucratic details spelt out by unaccountable, unelected, overpaid and over-cosseted bureaucrats called Commissioners and all their appointed, unaccountable, overpaid staff in the regions.
If anybody says that the bureaucrats represent only a very small proportion, compared with the number of civil servants who work in the Welsh Office, or the Scottish Office or the Department of the Environment-- I have asked questions about that, too--the fact is that thousands of our civil servants in the Department of the Environment and in the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food are working full time on EEC matters, purely and simply. It is not just the Brussels bureaucracy, therefore, that we are
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concerned about ; we are concerned about the whole panoply of the extension of the growth in administration, based in Brussels, that is penetrating this country.At the beginning of this year, to give another example, most motorists-- there are many of them, about 20 million--were faced with a new imposition : a £1,000 fine if the tread on their car tyes was not more than 1.6 mm. Until 1 January of this year, it had been 1 mm. It is a relatively minor matter, but the Department of Transport told the Common Market that 1 mm was safe enough and that fewer than 1 per cent. of all accidents occurred in wet weather when an extra 0.6 mm might, without any evidence, meet the road-holding characteristics of all cars. The Common Market did not provide any evidence, and the Department said, "There is no evidence of improved safety." The Government voted against the proposal in the Council of Ministers but were outvoted, so on 1 January the Common Market imposed criminal penalties for breaching the 1.6 mm tread depth. No doubt that is treated as a trivial matter, but it imposed additional costs on every motorist, to the pleasure and delectation of tyre manufacturers, of between £50 and £1,000.
That is how such legislation is creeping into all aspects of our national and daily life. I say that it is not necessary and that we should halt at this point. I am a convinced opponent of the Common Market, which has been a millstone around our neck.
Some people may say, "We have come so far ; let us go no further." How shall we make that decision, because we will not make it in here? The bureaucracy and weight of the administrative machine in Brussels are too strong ; it is now part of our administration of government. We must ask the people of the nation, "Do you wish the subordination of the United Kingdom Parliament and Government to Brussels to be halted, or should we allow the drift towards Euro-federalism to continue whereby this place, as we predicted in the 1960s and 1975, will become little more than a county council?" This is the point at which we should do so.
The Minister said that there are difficulties with a referendum. Of course there are, but we shall conduct a difficult process over the next few weeks --the general election. The newspapers will pay attention not only to the general election but to a wide range of issues, some of which will impinge on the general election, just as in a referendum.
In a referendum, people would examine the arguments. People must have the right to receive information, some of which will be prejudiced and some objective, although it is difficult for human beings to be objective in any given circumstance. The Bill does not provide for that, so I assume that the author intends it to be done under delegated powers. The amount of expenditure allocated to each side must be the same to avoid the surfeit of propaganda that was churned out in the 1975 poll. The Government claimed that there would be one leaflet for each side, but they did not say that they would issue another leaflet to ensure that it was two to one.
Mr. Cryer : My hon. Friend is right.
Some of us said that limits should be placed on expenditure. We have such limits in general elections so that the fat cats cannot pour money into a campaign that misleads and subverts the argument and creates
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impressions that lead to an unfair result. Everybody in the United States believes that a similar system should be imposed much more tightly, because if someone there can get enough money he can dominate television with commercials. We have rejected that in our country because we think that it is unfair. Ours is a decent, proper system. In council and general elections, we have a limit on expenditure.Mr. Dykes : Not on national expenditure.
Mr. Cryer : We have limits on expenditure.
Mr. John Marshall : Will the hon. Gentleman give way ?
Mr. Cryer : No, I am not giving way. The hon. Gentleman has only just come in and hon. Members who have been here a lot longer still wish to take part in the debate.
The hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) is quite right : we have limitations not on national expenditure but on constituency expenditure, which have the same effect. There is no reason why that principle should not be translated to national expenditure for a referendum. That is an important qualification which was raised when the legislation was passed, but it was ignored by the Government of the day. I think that that was deliberate.
The Bill is justified and it has my support. I do not think that it will get any further, but it is at least a marker which shows that some of us want to ensure that the drift or inertia is stopped. Platitudes pour out about the victory at Maastricht, about protection, about going so far but no further and about signing one section or removing a sentence. I have been in Parliament since 1974 and I have seen that drift occurring.
How many times have we heard that the common agricultural policy will be reformed? How many times has that been said in this House, and how many times has it proved to be untrue? The CAP still soaks up 70 per cent. of the European Community budget. Why cannot we renationalise our agriculture to make it fairer and better and less wasteful and less destructive of our countryside which is the inheritance of us all? We cannot because we are bound by the treaty, but we hear many platitudes about changes being made.
The best changes come from outside. We may not necessarily win the argument, but at least let us have the argument and not allow the drift to continue. If people outside say that they are complacent about the drift and accept it, that would not convince me because I should continue the battle to try to persuade them to change their minds--that is the right of us all--but a decision will have been made which is preferable to the drift. The Bill will make that possible, and it has my support.
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Mr. Tony Favell (Stockport) : I had better declare an interest at the outset in case anyone is under any illusion. I am the parliamentary adviser to the Referendum First Campaign. I am not paid for that--it is a labour of love for my country.
I agree with the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) that the time has come to take stock of our membership of the Community. The Community is like a
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club and when one joins a club one pays a subscription every year. From time to time, one reconsiders and if one decides that the club is no longer the same club one joined, one decides not to pay a further subscription.I and many right hon. Friends believe that the Community is changing its character. When I voted to join the European Community, I believed that I was joining a free trade association. I read all three pamphlets handed to me, but I laboured under that illusion. That is why I voted to join.
The European Community is now dedicated to turning itself into a political and economic union--a closer and closer union--and it is time for not only the House but the people to be allowed to take stock and to decide whether that is what we want. I believe that when the history of the 1992 general election comes to be written, unless all three parties are prepared to commit themselves to allowing the British people to decide whether they wish the power of the House to drift away to Europe, the election will be go down as the phoney election. People may not realise now, but they soon
will--unfortunately, probably not until after the general election--that whichever Government are in power, that Government will no longer be in total control, or even part control in some cases, of matters as important as who should be allowed to enter our country. The Government will not be in control--to a large extent--or our economy, of whether the interest rate on mortgages goes up or down or whether the overdraft with the bank manager suddenly goes up or down and whether firms are possibly forced into bankruptcy as a result of a decision taken not here by the Bank of England but in Frankfurt. People's economic fortunes will depend not on what the Opposition--if they form a Government--or we do, but on how German reunification progresses and on whether the Bundesbank believes that it is right to increase interest rates in order to combat the greatest recession since 1929 and the 1930s.
When the electorate realise that they have been robbed of electing a Government who have control over these decisions, their anger will know no bounds, and it should not. The House has made decisions without asking the people and without their realising the implications--some small and some rather bigger. For example, there was the doing away with county councils and moving Yorkshire into Lancashire--I am a Yorkshireman myself. People did not realise until too late that these were great constitutional changes to hundreds of years of our history. They should not have been done without the whole-hearted consent of the people--there is a phrase.
Our country is now a multiracial society--one cannot turn the clock back and nor would I wish to do so. However, people were not asked about the policies that brought about that change, and they should have been asked. The changes brought about by Maastricht will be even bigger. Control over matters as large as that will move from here to elsewhere, and there is no greater decision than that. I agree with what the hon. Member for Bradford, North and others have said.
Mr. John Marshall : Will my hon. Friend look back at the Division lists for 25 January 1978 when the House last voted on whether there should be a referendum, in that case for Scotland and Wales? Does he agree that the words of the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) are
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somewhat devalued because at that time he voted against the people of Scotland having a referendum? If the people of Scotland could not understand devolution, why does the hon. Gentleman think that the people of England can understand Europe? Is not the hon. Member for Bradford, South a humbug?Mr. Favell : I will not comment on whether the hon. Member for Bradford, South--I apologise for getting the wrong end of Bradford--is a humbug, but he is entitled to change his mind. I voted yes in the referendum on continued membership of the Common Market and I now believe that that was a fundamental mistake. I believe that many other people believe that that was wrong. I am asking that they should be given the opportunity to express through a referendum whether they wish to go any further.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall) spoke of Scottish devolution. My hon. Friend the Member for Beverley (Mr. Cran) mentioned the article in the Financial Times on 12 December 1991, which said :
"The Maastricht Treaty is indeed the biggest milestone in the Community's 34-year history in its preamble, many of the attributes--common citizenship, defence and money--of a potential Euro-super state"
were being put into place. He is right. Some people are beginning to rumble that. They certainly are in Scotland. The Scottish National party is realising that power is moving away from the United Kingdom to Brussels and is talking about "Scotland in Europe". If decisions are not to be made here in Westminster, where Scotland has quite a large representation, why not take a place at the top table in Brussels? It is difficult to argue against that.
The British people as a whole must be asked whether they wish the United Kingdom to break up. The SNP will do better than many people believe, and many Labour Members are beginning to realise that. These great matters should be put to the people, not decided here on a three-line Whip. The United Kingdom was put together by our forebears in 1707 and since that time, we have defeated dictators together, fought wars together, won and lost empires together, traded together, intermarried, and had a single currency. Everybody should be asked to decide on whether to change that, and it should not be decided only here. It certainly should not be decided without being put to the electorate at a general election, as it will not be. That is why the general election of 1992 will be regarded as a phoney election. As my right hon. Friend the Minister of State said, there will be more IGCs before 1996--possibly even before the general election. More decisions will be made, and that really will be the cap on it. No doubt the same arguments will be advanced in the House. People will say, "We must not have a referendum. Don't forget the 1992 Maastricht treaty. This House agreed to a treaty of union. Don't you know what a treaty of union is? You knew what the Act of Union in 1707 meant. Surely you know what the treaty of union in 1992 meant."
In our heart of hearts, whether we are for it or against it, we know what the treaty means. It is the drive towards a united states of Europe. It is the drive towards a federal super-state. In the summer, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said :
"A European super-state would not be acceptable to me or to the House--and in my judgment it would not be acceptable to the country."--[ Official Report, 18 June 1991 ; Vol. 193, c. 142.]
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The country should be asked. The Irish are having a referendum on the treaty of Maastricht. The Danes are having a referendum on the treaty of Maastricht. The British, with the oldest democracy of all, should be given the benefit of a referendum.1.35 pm
Mr. Hugh Dykes (Harrow, East) : The hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer), who has left the Chamber--temporarily, I assume--referred to one of those irritating Community directives, the lawnmower noise directive, which was being examined by his Committee, the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. It is interesting that he did not reach the conclusion that all good constitutionalists in this Parliament should reach if they are really concerned about this institution's future strength : if a majority vote in the Community left this Parliament seething--across the Benches and across the parties--at the injustice of the decision, Parliament could rise up against the Executive and say, "We will not accept that decision ; we will vote against it." It is interesting to observe that, despite all the noise, all the ritual, all the hubris and hyperbole, this Parliament has never objected to a single directive from the European Community once the Executive have revealed their decision on it. That is contrary to the impression that we like to give. I share with my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Mr. Favell) a pride in this institution, and he and I are friends, despite our differences on this fundamental subject. I respect the passion, depth and sincerity with which he spoke, but we know that this is, unfortunately, one of the more docile parliamentary institutions among the member states of the European Community. Much depends on explanations, differences and so on. I should like to see that docility diminish in the future, but it is part of the way in which our traditions have developed. It has a positive side, because most of us probably sometimes relish the fact that a strong Government can introduce instant legislation, sometimes on the most marginal problems, although if we regret that legislation, we can put in a different Bill and possibly even a different Government. That is easier here than in some other countries--particularly the United States--with the separation of powers.
The European Community, too, has that attractive feature--the separation of powers through the multiplicity of sources of power and decision making. The Commission makes proposals. Those proposals must be voted on by the Council of Ministers unanimously or by a majority vote, or by whatever system may be decided. That is safer than our system under which, if an abuse of power takes place, there is no restraint and there are no checks and balances--until there is an upheaval in the party concerned or a significant change at a general election. In our system, self-restraint is needed because of the absence of a written constitution.
As the Minister of State and others have said today, my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) is a respected parliamentarian. I wish that he had dealt with such matters in his Bill. The flaw in the Bill is that it refers specifically to European treaties : it is not a general referendum Bill. Although my hon. Friend would deny it- -and I am sure that his motives are pure--others
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have latched on to the Bill opportunistically to bash Europe yet again and to stir up trouble both before and after the general election.Mr. Carttiss : Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Dykes : I would like to, but I want other hon. Members, including my hon. Friend, to have a chance to speak, so I shall be brief. I have been in the Chamber throughout the debate and, apart from raising a point of order, I have not intervened.
It is sad that some Conservative Members and Opposition Members who are worried about these developments are hitting the wrong targets. There should be measures to strengthen our national Parliament. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State made an excellent speech and I appreciated his masterly analysis of the previous 1975 referendum, its parameters, components, questions, answers and percentages. That was a telling critique which exposed the flaws of that referendum. As we are aware, my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) was adamant in her opposition to that referendum. The targets in the Bill are wrong. My greatest objection to the Bill is the mention of any particular reason for the referendum, as if the treaty concerned is different from any other treaty. It is not, although it is more profound. This country took a major decision to share sovereignty with other individual, proud, sovereign countries ; to join agreed, integrated structures with no loss of sovereignty, but an overall growth of sovereignty and, therefore, no risks. The British public increasingly support that and, therefore, there is no need for a Referendum Bill.
It is ironic and sad that the Bill undermines the sovereignty of this place and, presumably to a lesser extent, of the upper House, which has a residual role in such matters. Although the Bill has only one sponsor, the Bill's supporters will weaken the residual strength of this institution which has already been weakened by our practices, by the complex nature of the political economy in Britain and the need to work more closely with other countries.
When the United Nations pursued its Gulf initiatives, the other countries in the Security Council and the General Assembly did not impose their will on a hapless Britain. Instead, Britain participated voluntarily and positively. The same thing applies to all our international treaties and agreements.
The treaty about which we are concerned is more profound than others. It provides for legislation in all the national Parliaments, but it is no more terrifying for that. It flows from the original Stuttgart declaration and the Single European Act when there was no question of a referendum. The supporters of today's Bill did not call for a referendum then. There are flaws in putting immensely complex questions to an already overburdened public who, through delegation and representative parliamentary democracy, want their own Members of Parliament to handle such matters. That is our way and our strength. Countries with written constitutions provide for referendums on major constitutional matters. As my right hon. Friend the Minister of State said, the Bill to be introduced after the general election by whichever party wins--we hope that it will be the Conservatives --will be
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our legitimate parliamentary equivalent of a referendum. All our citizens will be able to lobby us as hon. Members. There is a close, sacred and precious connection between hon. Members and their constituents, irrespective of party adhesion. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor) believes that the public would come to this place and tell us not to support such an outrageous measure, but I doubt that. I believe that there is enthusiasm for such issues not just among the younger generation, but among the older generation as well.Never before has such a profound treaty been agreed by our Government on behalf of the British Parliament and the public with the enthusiasm that it deserved. If the press and politicians deprived the public of the opportunity of detailed arguments, that was their fault. Basic common sense overrides all that. People know that our planet is smaller and the European part is becoming smaller--not literally, but in the sense of a need for indivisible, close co-operation between countries.
Treaty structures are the sanctification of such Government decisions. Support for Europe is growing. People who visit the Commission in Brussels for the first time come away from it as admirers. I can understand that. They may disapprove of some aspects of the CAP--
Mr. Dykes : My right hon. Friend the Minister of State is rightly trying to restrain me. Perhaps I am going a little too far. I meant to say that they are aware of the way in which a modest-sized bureaucracy creates policy by agreement. The process passes to the Council of Ministers which is asked to vote on the issue. If the European Parliament were to be involved in the process, why did not my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge -Brownhills introduce a Bill that would give the European Parliament additional powers by delegating legislation from this House ? That would have been much better.
During world war two, the great coalitions of the parties in a national emergency came together against the fascist tyranny emanating from Germany. In parentheses, I deplore the attacks on Germany that were made, mainly by the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) in a quite hysterical outburst. With 85 per cent. of the population of Germany being born after 1945, I can think of no country that has handled its reunification with more impeccable dignity and restraint than the Federal Republic of Germany. We thank it for being one of the model democracies of Europe.
In that emergency in the second world war, there was consensus here. There was no question of a referendum about the major existential decision facing any nation--to go to war or not. There was never a referendum on the NATO treaty--admittedly, that was only on defence and security, but in existential terms as well it was much more far reaching than matters to do with commerce, trade and working together in political economies. There is more and more agreement between the parties, with just a small number of dissidents in each of the major parties. Presumably, the Liberals are mostly pro-Europe, but sometimes there is a little odd exception in the parliamentary Liberal party which bursts through a little chink of light--I was going to say "of sunlight". They sometimes show themselves, but otherwise there is the developing, growing, powerful consensus of the House of
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Commons. There is no need for my hon. Friend or others who like the Bill to be nervous of that. What they should do is oppose the Bill. 1.45 pmMr. Michael Spicer (Worcestershire, South) : I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) on a brilliant speech. It was unscripted, and 40 minutes of joy to listen to.
My natural instincts are not to favour a referendum, for some of the reasons that have been given. I fully understand that, to a large extent, the debate about Britain's future place in Europe is about the future place of the House of Commons in Europe. Those of us who wish to resist any further moves to a federal state of Europe do so in large part precisely because we wish to protect the rights and the powers of Parliament.
The sovereignty of Parliament distinguishes our country--I fundamentally disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) on this point--from most others in Europe and provides one reason why the British perspective on Europe is bound to be different. My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East said that, in some way, European institutions and the European thread of history are more democratic than ours. That is bizarre. The foundation of the philosophy of Kant and others in 19th century Germany was basically anti-democratic. There is no tradition similar to the British tradition of democracy. One has only to go to the French Assembly or to the Bundestag to realise that those institutions have a totally and profoundly different position in their country.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East mentioned the House of Commons being wimpish on questions of Europe, compared with other European institutions. Anybody who attended the French Assembly debate on the Maastricht agreement will have found four or five members there rather drearily trying to find something to say about it and will have understood that European institutions do not have the thread of democracy that we have. Elected German Ministers send their officials to debate great issues in the Bundestag. There is a profound difference in the way that we treat parliamentary democracy.
Mr. Dykes : My hon. Friend has misunderstood me. The reality of the three-line Whip system renders his remarks otiose, because we all know that we are going through a ritual and, in a docile fashion, supporting the recommendations of our Executive. That is strength, but it is also the weakness of the Parliament. I was talking about the post-war period in respect of other Parliaments, not ancient history.
Mr. Spicer : I understand that. I shall refer to the paradox because I intend--it is paradoxical--to speak in favour of the Bill, which has the effect of bypassing Parliament. I shall try to answer the paradox by posing a further dilemma. Perhaps it relates to what my hon. Friend has just said.
Mr. Favell : The Bill does not bypass Parliament. My hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) suggests that there should be a referendum first. The final decision will be made by Parliament. It need not accept the public's recommendation if it does not wish to.
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Mr. Spicer : That is a good point and one to which I intended to return.
For good historical reasons connected mainly with our constitution, in which the executive branch of government and the legislature are fused together, we have a rigid party system in the House of Commons. Perhaps that is the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East was making. The next general election will certainly be fought exclusively on party lines. For differing reasons the leaderships of all the parties, perhaps with the exception of the Ulster Unionist party, have decided to form a common front on what to my mind is the crucial point about Europe. In their various ways they have accepted the broad objective of setting up and joining a single European monetary system.
The Government, unlike the Labour party, thankfully, have not included within the commitment to a single monetary system a further commitment to merge the pound in a single European currency. But all parties are committed to the exchange rate mechanism and to the further tightening of its screws. In precisely the same way as they did with the return to the gold standard in 1925, the leaderships of all parties have been willing to trade off rising unemployment against something called a stable currency.
Of course, the Labour party's position is the most dishonourable. I was delighted to see that the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith) has been rumbled in his own newspaper. I do not know who said that The Guardian was an unbiased newspaper but certainly it has rumbled the right hon. and learned Gentleman. In an extraordinary and precise repetition, for example, of Philip Snowden's call for a return to the gold standard from the Opposition Front Bench in 1925, the position of the present Labour party is on the one hand to shout abuse at the Government for high interest rates and rising unemployment and on the other to advocate a tightening of the policies that will have the precise effect of making things worse, in particular a single European currency and the shackling of our industry with social costs.
Part of the debate that has taken place so far has revolved around whether crucial issues about the future of Europe and the link between the currency and political issues can be resolved in a general election. My hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr. Nelson) seemed to go to the centre of that when he said that the matter could be resolved in a general election. But in the same breath, or a few breaths later, he said that he did not want such important issues--even he accepted that it was important--to be treated as a specific issue. He wanted them somehow submerged in a wider set of issues. One cannot have it both ways. Either one takes the view that an issue is absolutely crucial or one does not. That is particularly important when dealing with whether we should aim towards monetary union, about which there is a large measure of agreement between the parties.
I wish to focus briefly on the single currency and the relationship with the ERM. It is crucial in a discussion about whether there is sufficient difference between the parties to allow an issue to be decided in a general election. The difference between the value of two currencies should be merely a reflection of the difference between respective unit costs in the two countries to which the currencies are attached. A country with higher unit costs than another but which wishes to hold the value of its currency above
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the level that reflects them must of necessity raise its interest rates artificially to attract buyers of its currency and suppress demand, especially for imports. The fact that such a policy may raise unit costs by damaging investment is another aspect of this sorry tale. But the real point is that in any case the result is rising unemployment and industrial stagnation, precisely as happened in the years following 1925.Ultimately, the ERM will be seen to be unworkable and we would then have two options--pull out, or accept a single currency. As that would mean a single monetary and fiscal policy and a single central financial authority, it would also mean the formation of the ingredients of a single state, which answers the question about whether there is a distinction between the political and economic concerns involved. They ultimately come together in that crucial question. The Liberal and Labour parties would rapidly accept a single currency. During this debate they have again accepted the concept of a single currency as the way to resolve the present dilemma.
I hope that the leaders of my party will at least pause to test public opinion on that crucial issue before they take a decision. After giving the matter deep thought, I believe that a referendum on Maastricht would help them in that process. My hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills is absolutely right to say that the Bill merely proposes a test of public opinion on that crucial issue before Parliament takes its final decision, and that is why I support it. 2 pm
Mr. Matthew Carrington (Fulham) : I have considerable sympathy with the Bill. Its objectives are clear and based on a worry about the transfer of sovereignty from this country to the European Community. That ought to worry a great many of us. We must find a solution to control it and we have been singularly unsuccessful in doing so in the past. The issues have not been well understood as it has been a gradual process, which is largely outside the ken of most hon. Members, let alone the people outside this place.
My concern about the Bill and the reason why I do not support it is that I do not believe that a referendum is the right way to control that drift. I shall not go over the arguments about referendums again, because I want to keep my remarks brief so that my hon. Friends can speak. However, a referendum would have two major problems. First, the power of the person calling the referendum to determine the nature of the question will clearly largely determine the outcome. Also, it is a question not merely of the words on the ballot paper but of the nature of the argument preceding the vote which determines how people interpret the question on the referendum. Technically, a referendum is not the right solution to the problem.
Another difficulty with a referendum is that we are discussing complicated issues. They cannot be segmented into elements on which a decision of yes or no could be taken. The decisions are interrelated and interactive and will lead to future problems and further decisions. That does not lend itself to a simple yes or no answer, or to a simple discussion and debate. However, it lends itself to proper debate in the House and to the proper use of the role of Members of Parliament.
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Edmund Burke has been referred to, but it is clear that the role of Members of Parliament in the House is to listen and to debate the arguments, to understand the issues and to come to a decision which, in their view, is the right decision for the benefit of the country and of their constituents.Mr. Cash rose--
Mr. Carrington : I shall not give way because I am trying to keep my remarks brief.
It is important for such complicated issues to be understood by hon. Members. [ Several Hon. Members :-- "What about the Opposition Benches?"] Yes it is important that it should be understood by the empty Opposition Benches.
The way in which the House functions in controlling legislation is extremely weak and, in many ways, lax. That is also one of the problems with the nature of Members of Parliament. We have set up a number of Select Committees to examine European legislation-- [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor) is on one such Committee. In general, Select Committees scratch the top of the problems, but even when they examine the problems in depth and come out with recommendations, if the recommendations do not accord with what the Government of the day want to happen, they are entirely ignored and the ability of the House to impose them is also ignored.
The right way forward is not a referendum but to consider increasing the power of Members of Parliament and their resourcing. I suspect that one of the reasons why many issues are not examined is because hon. Members do not have the physical resources to give themselves the time to understand the issues. Although every hon. Member in the Chamber today will have understood the issues, I suspect that few of our colleagues have bothered to read the treaties and understand what is behind them.
The role of Members of Parliament needs to be revised carefully. The role of the support of Government by Members and the separation of the Executive from the legislature must be examined so that Members can be freed to make decisions on those matters without fear of those decisions impacting on their careers or the future of the Government. Essentially, a fundamental change in the role of Members is required. The simplistic solution of holding a referendum is not required.
Another problem with a referendum is that if, as some of my hon. Friends would no doubt like, it results in the Maastricht treaty being accepted, which is quite likely , we would be in an even worse state than we are today. We would have the endorsement of a treaty for reasons that were not clearly understood and the spurious underpinning of progress in Europe. Again, that would need to be understood, but it would not have been understood through the process of a referendum.
I am also concerned that the Bill, its supporters having failed to win the argument in the House, is an attempt to take a second bite at the cherry by requiring a referendum outside. A referendum would solve nothing. Whatever the result, it would be unsatisfactory. The right way to protect the interests of the House is to increase the power of ordinary Members of Parliament.
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