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Mr. Richard Shepherd : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May we have a statement, perhaps on Monday, from Foreign Office Ministers assuring us that they did not switch off the Division Bells in the outer Buildings of the House?
Mr. Garel-Jones : I can forthwith give my hon. Friend the assurance that he seeks.
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Private Members' Bills
SHOPS (AMENDMENT) BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Mr. Ray Powell (Ogmore) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Before I give the date for the Second Reading, I draw your attention to the fact that on this occasion, the Government were asked clearly to define their position. Today we debated a Bill about a referendum, and we talked about votes in this House and in other places. The vote giving permission for me to introduce the Shops (Amendment) Bill was 222 to four.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I am finding it difficult to understand the point of order for the Chair. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will come to it.
Mr. Powell : I am coming to it, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am a part of the usual channels, and we use the usual channels for debates on Fridays, as you know. You will take cognisance of the fact that, last Friday, through the agreement of the usual channels, two Bills were passed at this time of day. The Second and Third Readings were passed by agreement through the usual channels. Being a part of the usual channels, I took advice and wrote to the Minister with responsibility for the Bill. It is a reforming Bill--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I have been very tolerant. The hon. Gentleman really must come to his point of order for me. I think that I have the drift of it, but he must come to it quickly.
Mr. Powell : You are most tolerant in the Chair, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I am grateful to you for that. It is very difficult to explain all the complex problems, particularly when it comes to private Members' Bills.
Only yesterday, the Minister of State, Home Office, replied to me in a letter regarding my request for Government co-operation to ensure that the Shops (Amendment) Bill went further than Second Reading. In the third paragraph of her letter, she said that any Bill, unless it had the approval of the Government, would not proceed further. We have ten-minute Bills, private Members' Bills and a ballot for private Members' Bills. The hon. Member for
Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) was fortunate enough to win a place in the ballot to enable him to introduce his Bill. I stayed up all night to get a spot for my ten-minute Bill. The motion was passed in the House, as I have mentioned--
Mr. John Marshall (Hendon, South) : What is the point of order?
Mr. Powell : My point of order is that if it means that we must have Government approval before a Bill may be read a Second time, why do we go to all the trouble of trying to obtain a spot, either in private Members' time or to introduce a ten-minute Bill?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : The hon. Gentleman is an experienced and respected Member of the House, and he knows the procedure very well. It does not operate only at 2.30 pm on Fridays ; it operates at other times, too. If an
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hon. Member shouts, "Object," the Bill can go no further on that occasion. That is exactly what happened this afternoon. Second Reading what day?Second Reading deferred till Friday 28 February .
CIVIL RIGHTS (DISABLED PERSONS) BILL
Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Second Reading [31 January].
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Objection taken. Debate to be resumed what day?
Mr. Harry Cohen (Leyton) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Alfred Morris (Manchester, Wythenshawe) : I did not hear any objection.
Mr. Cohen : There was no objection.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : I clearly heard an objection, and I am asking the right hon. Gentleman whether he wishes to name a day to resume the debate.
Debate to be resumed on Friday 28 February.
Mr. Alfred Morris : On a point of order Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it not time that the Select Committee on Procedure again looked urgently at what is now a seriously anomalous position? Whereas the television viewer can see who objected--I am now informed that it was the hon. Member for Dorset, North (Mr. Baker), acting for the Government--the reader of Hansard cannot be told who objected. It must be a serious anomaly that one can see on television who destroyed an opportunity to give a Bill a Second Reading but cannot read it in Hansard. Surely that is especially unfortunate in the case of a Bill now being discussed in the House of Lords, which was talked out on 31 January by a Member who has since apologised for his conduct.
Several Hon. Members rose--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. It has never been the practice for the hon. Member who objects to further proceedings on a Bill to identify himself. The matter has been referred to the Procedure Committee in the past. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to refer it again, I am sure that he will do so. We must now proceed.
Several Hon. Members rose--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I will first take the remaining Orders of the Day.
CRIMINAL INSTRUCTION BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Not moved.
COLD WEATHER CREDITS BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Second Reading what day?
Mr. Ray Powell (Ogmore) : With the permission of the Member in charge of the Bill, Friday next.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 28 February.
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RIGHT TO INFORMATION BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 28 February.
TIMESHARE CONTRACTS (TIME FOR RECONSIDERATION) (SCOTLAND) BILL Order for Second Reading read.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Second Reading what day?
Mr. Ray Powell : With permission, Friday next.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 28 February.
HOUSING (FITNESS STANDARD) (AMENDMENT) BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Second Reading what day?
Mr. Ray Powell : With permission, Friday next.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 28 February.
ANIMAL EXPERIMENTATION (COSMETICS) BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Second Reading what day?
Mr. Ray Powell : With permission, Friday next.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 28 February.
NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE (SUPPLY OF MEDICAL EQUIPMENT) BILL Order for Second Reading read.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Second Reading what day?
Mr. Ray Powell : With permission, Friday next.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 28 February.
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FIREARMS (AMENDMENT) BILL
Order for consideration read.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There have now been five Bills in succession on which we have not heard anyone object. We cannot hear any objection. A guilty whisper--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. We will deal with the Firearms (Amendment) Bill again to make certain that there is no confusion.
Mr. Ray Powell : On that matter--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. Is the hon. Gentleman objecting?
Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
Bill read the Third time, and passed.
TIMESHARE BILL
Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
Read the Third time, and passed.
PRISONS (REHABILITATION OF DRUG ADDICTS) BILL Order for Second Reading read.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Not moved.
EUROPEAN STANDING COMMITTEES
Ordered,
That European Community Documents Nos. 8810/91, relating to the right of asylum, and 8811/91, relating to immigration, shall not stand referred to European Standing Committee B.-- [Mr. Nicholas Baker.]
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
That, at the sitting on Monday 2nd March, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 14 (Exempted business), Mr. Speaker shall put the Questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motion in the name of the Prime Minister relating to Asylum and Immigration not later than Seven o'clock.-- [Mr. Nicholas Baker.]
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Points of Order
2.53 pm
Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, concerning the vote on the closure motion on the Referendum Bill. Would it be possible for you to inquire where in the precincts of the House the bells did not ring and to report to the House on Monday or at your convenience?
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean) : I made inquiries and it seemed clear to me that the bells were operating in most places. As there might have been some slight doubt, I added two minutes to the Division.
Mr. Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker concerning the Shops (Amendment) Bill, which deals with Sunday trading and was introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell). There has been reluctance on the part of the Government to make proposals to deal with Sunday trading and there has been an extraordinarily helpful and detailed White Paper--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. We cannot debate the Bill now. If there is a point of order I shall take it.
Mr. Michael : Yes, indeed. My point of order is this. As we have seen the White Paper, as the Bill is in detail before us--in greater detail than many Bills introduced by the Government--as there was a vote of 224 to 4 for the Bill to be debated, and as I presented a plea to the House from my council of churches and all the bishops in Wales
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman is attempting to debate the Bill.
Mr. Michael : No. The point of order is that, given all that background, is it not an outrage that we are not allowed to debate the Bill? Will you use your good offices to persuade the Government to make a statement early next week to explain how they will respond to the fact that one solitary voice--which has now disappeared--called against the Bill? That would give the House the opportunity to debate the issues properly and constructively, so that legislation could be clear to the general public and to business. Will you use your good offices to that effect?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : I have many duties, but one of them is not to persuade the Government to make statements. However, I am sure that what the hon. Gentleman has said will have been heard by those on the Government Front Bench.
Rev. Martin Smyth (Belfast, South) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I appreciate that you heard an objection to the Civil Rights (Disabled Persons) Bill, but others did not. May we have some clarification of whether the Government, who have presided over anti-discrimination legislation on employment in Northern Ireland and on race and religion throughout the United Kingdom, object to civil rights for disabled people? I speak for the people of Northern Ireland, who are concerned about the issue.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. We cannot debate the matter now.
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Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Civil Rights (Disabled Persons) Bill was talked out by the hon. Member for Kingswood (Mr. Hayward). Today, when the motion to resume the debate was moved, you were close to the Government Whip, the hon. Member for Dorset, North (Mr. Baker), and you heard him object--or perhaps the Clerk did. One thing is certain : Opposition Members did not hear the guilty whisper. Under Standing Orders, if hon. Members object, they have to object not merely to you, but to the House. The Government Whip also whispered "Object" to the Cold Weather Credits Bill, to the Housing (Fitness Standard) (Amendment) Bill and to the Animal Experimentation (Cosmetics) Bill. We would prefer him to stand up and be man enough to tell the world what the Government are up to.
You, Mr. Deputy Speaker, have a duty to ensure in future that if hon. Members object from a sedentary position they speak out so that everyone knows who the guilty people on the Government Front Bench are who are stopping the passage of important Bills on behalf of people such as the disabled. It really is a scandal.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : It is my job to carry out the procedures of the House as they are at present. We have been round this course many times at 2.30 pm on a Friday, and if hon. Members wish the procedure to be changed I suggest that they put their point to the Select Committee on Procedure.
Mr. Harry Cohen (Leyton) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is absolutely outrageous that the Government Whip should object in a whisper to the Civil Rights (Disabled Persons) Bill. You may have heard him, but I suspect that the majority of hon. Members in the House did not hear him. How are Members to follow proceedings if we do not know what is going on? There could be chaos. We might all be speaking together and it would become a tower of Babel. It is disgraceful that the Government Whip should object to such an important Bill in a whisper. It should be made known clearly. The Whips should be made to stand up and object, if that is what they propose to do.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. It is my job to ensure that the current procedures of the House are carried out. If hon. Members are dissatisfied, they are free to put their points to the Select Committee on Procedure.
Mr. Alan Williams (Swansea, West) : Further to that important point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Other than when there is a Division or when a point of order is raised during a Division, you would insist that all legitimate interventions must be made by an hon. Member on his feet. Sedentary interventions are not accepted by the Chair. Therefore, will you consider the fact that sedentary objections are not a legitimate or acceptable part of the business of the House? Whoever objects should stand on his feet to register the objection.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : The short answer is that that is not the case with objections and never has been.
Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I can confirm what so many other hon. Members have said-- that when the third motion was put, we could not hear the word "Object" being said. I did hear a noise but I do not know what it
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was. Being so much closer to the possible source of the noise, you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, may have heard the word "Object", but there was so much background noise that there is a serious danger that you or the Clerks might hear another noise, such as someone clearing his throat or two hon. Members whispering to one another, and think that the word has been uttered. If the word "Object" is not said clearly, there is a serious danger that you or the Clerks may be misled.Mr. Deputy Speaker : I am giving away no secrets when I tell the House that the Chair has powerful amplifiers that enable me to hear very distinctly everything that is said.
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