House of Commons Hansard Debates for 24 Feb 1992

Sir John Hannam : Will my right hon. Friend confirm that this year more than £1 billion is being spent by the public sector on energy efficiency? Much energy could also be saved by businesses. Has he any new initiatives in the pipeline for energy efficiency in the business sector?

Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : I can confirm the figure given by my hon. Friend. The funding of the Energy Efficiency Office in my Department has risen 10 times since the Government took office in 1979. The energy management assistance scheme, which will come into place on 1 April, will grant-aid energy efficiency projects for smaller businesses--a new initiative to add to the many others that my Department already runs.

Energy Management

17. Mr. Evennett : To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if he will outline what initiatives he is taking to encourage responsible energy management among businesses.

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Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : We are taking forward three major initiatives : the making a corporate commitment campaign, which is designed to secure board level commitment to energy efficiency ; best practice, which is the Department's main programme of energy efficiency information transfer ; and the energy management assistance scheme, which I have mentioned and which gives grant aid to the energy efficiency projects of smaller businesses.

Mr. Evennett : I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, which makes most welcome news. What was the budget for 1979-80 and what is the predicted budget for 1992? Do not the figures show that the Government are committed to the scheme?

Mr Heathcoat-Amory : In real terms, the funding for the Energy Efficiency Office has risen 10 times during the past 11 years.

THE ARTS

Arts Sponsorship

28. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Minister for the Arts whether he has any plans to visit Barnet to discuss the private sponsorship of the arts.

The Minister for The Arts (Mr. Tim Renton) : I will be visiting Community and Recreational Arts in Barnet in March, where I will have the pleasure of attending the official opening of the Tedder lounge, which has been extended to include a wheelchair accessible art room. I shall be happy to speak about private sponsorship of the arts if asked.

Mr. Marshall : If asked, would my right hon. Friend be able to confirm that private sponsorship of the arts has generated an additional £46 million on top of the already large amounts of public expenditure? Would he also be able to confirm that the only threat to the continuation of that expenditure is the election of philistines of the left, who are opposed to the scheme and whose tax policies would pulverise the attempts of those who support the arts?

Mr. Renton : I agree with my hon. Friend. One of the very satisfying factors is that despite the difficult times that some companies are facing, they are continuing with their sponsorship of the arts, often in partnership with my office, through the business sponsorship incentive scheme award. It is sad that the Labour party has already shown indifference to that form of arts funding. If it does not kill off the golden goose, it will certainly let it starve to death through neglect.

Museum Charges

29. Mr. Flynn : To ask the Minister for the Arts what recent assessment has been made of the effect on attendance figures of the introduction of admission charges to museums.

Mr. Renton : Comparisons are hard to make because of the unreliability of the numbers recorded prior to the introduction of charges. However, evidence suggests that,

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after an initial fall-off, admission numbers at those museums which charge have held up well in subsequent years.

Mr. Flynn : Since the catastrophic drop in attendance at the National Museum of Wales--a reduction which has largely been made up by the efforts of the museum staff--there is still bitter resentment among Welsh people that a barrier prevents them from seeing the treasures of Wales that were purchased and the national museum that was established as an expression of Welsh identity. Those shows of identity were paid for by the pennies of miners and the barrier was imposed by the philistine, alien Government who do not know the difference between a work of art and a tin of baked beans. When will there be an end to the philistine approach of the Government who apply a cornershop philosophy to the arts?

Mr. Renton : It is extraordinary to describe the Government or Welsh Office as philistine when the Government are currently spending £21 million on the extension and development of the National Museum of Wales in Cardiff. I had great pleasure in seeing that extension and I would be surprised if the hon. Gentleman had not visited it and was not looking forward to its opening. The fall in attendance was mentioned in the debate on the Museums and Galleries Bill the other day. Although a fall in numbers occurred in the first year after charges were introduced, that was largely due to the building works, but the figures have increased and Welsh men are looking forward enormously to the addition to their national museum.

Mr. Soames : Does my right hon. Friend accept that if the major galleries of this country are to go on with their extremely enlightened and successful purchasing programme, it is essential that we bring in charging for entry? Does he accept that the general public will not mind in the least paying to see these magnificent treasures? Will he further accept that there is a perfectly satisfactory formula under which all who are exempted from prescription charges are exempted from charges for entry to museums?

Mr. Renton : My hon. Friend will know that the galleries and museums that charge either do not charge or operate substantial concessions for the elderly, for school children and for educational parties. My hon. Friend puts his finger on a crucial point : the total income of the museums and galleries for which I am responsible, outside their grant in aid, is £48 million--up by £20 million from the figures for three years ago. If Labour came to power, it would remove all that money and thus deprive the public of the pleasure of the special exhibitions that are staged as a result of the charging policy.

Municipal Theatres

30. Mrs. Gorman : To ask the Minister for the Arts if he will make a statement of the funding of municipal theatres.

Mr. Renton : Municipal theatres, which are an essential part of arts provision in this country, are funded and run by local authorities. As receiving theatres they do not attract direct Arts Council funding, but they benefit from the Arts Council's support for touring which enables more distinctive and varied programmes to be mounted.

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Mrs. Gorman : I thank the Minister for that reply. Does he agree that it is possible, if arts societies stage productions that the population want to see or hear, for those societies to be self-financing-- as the society in Billericay is? The arts society there produces an excellent range of cinema, theatre and music, professional and amateur, and last year made a profit of £30,000. By contrast, in nearby Basildon, whose council levies an extortionate community charge, the municipal theatre receives a subsidy of £1.7 million a year and makes a loss of £500,000, which has to be funded out of the pockets of my constituents?

Mr. Renton : I hesitate to enter a dispute about the rival merits of these two different establishments. I certainly appreciate the good work done by the establishment in my hon. Friend's constituency which she mentioned first ; but I would point out that the Towngate theatre in Basildon also puts on some interesting performances--by Opera 80 and the Second Stride dance company, for instance. I understand that it recently hosted a show by the Chippendales, not a branch of the "Antiques Roadshow" but an American male strip show which played to an all-female audience. That at least shows a certain equality of opportunity.

Mr. Fisher : Will the Minister widen his reply to include funding of the national companies, and in particular will he explain the remarks that he made to the Royal Society of Arts last week, when he speculated on the Government funding the national companies directly? Is that ending of the arm's-length principle Government policy or is it another example of a Minister, who knows that he has only another five weeks in the job, making a remark entirely of his own without consulting his civil servants, the Arts Council or any of the national companies? Will he make his position clear : are the Government going to end their arm's-length approach?

Mr. Renton : That question is a long way from municipal theatres. However, if the hon. Gentleman had attended the seminar at which I made my remarks last Monday--I greatly regret that he was not there to hear me talk about delegation to the regional arts boards--he would have known that I made the point that if such delegation is fully successful--if the regional arts boards are progressing well--the question whether the five major national companies should continue to be funded by the Arts Council or be funded directly will arise. I framed my remarks in a hypothetical context following on from delegation to the regional arts boards, and I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman was not there to listen and to learn.

Touring Companies

31. Mr. Amos : To ask the Minister for the Arts what steps he is taking to encourage the increase of touring by arts companies.

Mr. Renton : Following the record increase in Government funding of the Arts Council for 1992-93, I am delighted that the council has decided to increase its touring budget for England for next year by over 19 per cent. to £9.6 million, and to increase substantially the separate Great Britain touring fund.

Mr. Amos : Does my right hon. Friend accept that the quality of cultural life in the north-east is second to none?

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Will he join me in congratulating Queen's hall in Hexham on winning so many national awards? Will he give an assurance that he will sustain the generous funding of Northern Arts that he has managed in the past few years?

Mr. Renton : I am well aware of the good work carried out by the Queen's hall arts centre. Its public sector funding depends on money from Northern Arts, and I am delighted to confirm that, as a result of the record settlement that I was able to negotiate for overheads, Northern Arts will receive a 13.9 per cent increase for 1992-93 amounting to more than £5 million.

European Arts Festival

33. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Minister for the Arts what plans he has for the European arts festival ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Renton : To ask the Minister for the Arts, what plans he has for the European arts festival ;-- [Interruption.]

The European arts festival, which I announced on 9 December will be a rewarding and imaginative way of celebrating our Presidency of the European Community in the second half of the year. Some £6 million is being made available to support a full programme of events across the United Kingdom.

Mr. Greenway : I thank my right hon. Friend for that doubly impressive answer. Will there be something for everybody, for people of all ages, in the European arts festival? Would not the festival be a good way to allow our citizens to improve their knowledge and understanding of European languages and culture?

Mr. Renton : Yes. I was so carried away by the wisdom of my hon. Friend's question that I found it necessary to repeat it. It is hoped that the European arts festival will reach all parts of the community, schoolchildren included, and will bring a tradition of British art in the European context to all parts of the country, including Ealing, North.

CIVIL SERVICE

Executive Agencies

38. Mr. John Evans : To ask the Minister for the Civil Service when he last met representatives of the civil service unions to discuss the operation of executive agencies.

The Minister of State, Privy Council Office (Mr. Tim Renton) : I meet representatives of the civil service unions from time to time to discuss a range of issues. Union members have an important part to play in the continued success of "next steps".

Mr. Evans : Did the Minister discuss with the unions concerned the maintenance of free collective bargaining and union recognition in the agencies? Will he take this opportunity to give a categorical assurance that none of the agencies will be allowed or encouraged to derecognise any of the civil service trade unions?

Mr. Renton : Derecognition of the civil service unions is certainly not part of our policy. In the context of the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question, I must ask him to appreciate that one of the important matters now being

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examined by the chief executives of the agencies is the issue of greater pay flexibility and performance pay, so that better results can be achieved, both by individuals and in terms of customer service, from a given amount of pay. That matter was being discussed at the chief executives' conference that I attended in Harrogate on Thursday, and it is a matter of great importance to all those working in the "next steps" agencies.

Mr. Latham : Is my right hon. Friend aware that, since these bodies remain within the civil service, some of us feel that executive agencies are neither fish nor fowl nor good red herring? Will he see what can be done to improve parliamentary accountability for the agencies because, in particular since they are responsible to the Public Accounts Committee, Ministers should be prepared to answer questions about them?

Mr. Renton : I disagree with my hon. Friend about the agencies being neither fish nor fowl nor good red herring. They are an extremely important development for the civil service and for those parts of the civil service that are especially concerned with delivering service to the customer. If my hon. Friend has a chance to visit any of the executive agencies, as I do, he will be very impressed by the way that they are tackling their tasks. My hon. Friend asked about answers to parliamentary questions. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has submitted proposals in that connection which I think are being studied by the appropriate House of Commons Committee.

Dr. Marek : The Minister will know that for some years London weighting has been frozen because the Minister's policy is to pay just sufficient to recruit and retain civil servants. Does he intend that policy to be part of the new executive agencies?

Mr. Renton : The hon. Gentleman is wrong, and I think that he knows it. Although further London spine points have been introduced and the amount of extra pay given to people working in London has therefore increased, there is more flexibility in the system than there used to be. Now, the emphasis is on pay agreements that will meet the specific needs of the civil service and of the executive agencies throughout the country, rather than on maintaining an unnecessarily rigid or uniform structure--a structure which did not necessarily produce the best results in the past.

Civil Service College

39. Mr. Dunn : To ask the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a progress report on the Civil Service college.

Mr. Renton : The college is contributing to a better-trained and more professional civil service. It has recently published its prospectus for 1992-93, and I will send my hon. Friend a copy.

Mr. Dunn : I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Does he agree that one of the tasks of the Civil Service college is to inculcate a sense of responsibility, a sense of loyalty and a sense of commitment to the Government of the day? Will he urge those who run the college to use the example of Mr. Pashley to illustrate the way in which a civil servant ought not to behave? I refer to

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trading in stolen documents with the Labour party--a practice that has not, I believe, yet been condemned by that party.

Mr. Renton : I appreciate the sentiment that lies behind my hon. Friend's question. The work of the civil service is, of course, dedicated more to the training of senior management and training in the key professional skills such as information technology, audit, purchasing and supply. As for the basic question of loyalty to which my hon. Friend referred, that consideration should be fundamental to the acceptance of a civil service job, and I hope that it will always remain a priority for every civil servant, regardless of which party is in power.

Mr. Winnick : When the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) was Prime Minister, Mr. Bernard Ingham and Mr. Charles Powell exercised far more influence on members of the Cabinet, apart from on the Prime Minister herself. Would it be possible for the Civil Service college to illustrate, by means of that example, what should not happen, and to demonstrate the amount of abuse that took place at that point in our history? Would not that be useful?

Mr. Renton : The hon. Gentleman does his best to get everything out of context whenever that is possible. His hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-East (Mr. Banks) is one of those Members of Parliament who have contributed regularly to college courses, and I am delighted that he has done so. Perhaps he would like to put his hon. Friend right in regard to the question of bias at the college.

Sir John Stokes : I admire the work of the Civil Service college. Does its principal keep in touch with the colleges in Her Majesty's forces, which maintain such a high standard in every respect, while also ensuring that intelligence is applied to complex problems?

Mr. Renton : I know the principal well. She is a woman--and I am very pleased that she is one of the women heading the executive agencies. I am sure that she follows up precisely the kind of matter to which my hon. and loyal Friend has referred, but I shall make certain that that is so, and write to my hon. Friend.

Appointments

40. Mr. Tony Banks : To ask the Minister for the Civil Service how many senior civil service appointments subject to prime ministerial approval have been made since 1979.

Mr. Renton : There are currently about 170 posts in grades 1 and 2 of the civil service. All appointments in these top grades have been subject to the consent of the Prime Minister.

Mr. Banks : Does the Prime Minister see some dangers there? Maintaining the previous Prime Minister's attitude to the selection of senior civil servants--"Is he one of ours?"--will lead to the politicisation of the civil service at the top level, and I believe that that has happened. Would it not be better either to move over to a "spoils" system--which would at least do away with all the hypocrisy, and

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would be more honest and open--or to appoint civil servants via a Select Committee, or through some other all-party approach?

Mr. Renton : Those comments are unworthy of the hon. Gentleman. I am glad to say that his thoughts are not shared by Opposition Front Benchers. I can only assume that it was from his previous experience as chairman of the Greater London council in 1985-86 that he learnt all about "getting your friends appointed to the key jobs", and that that is why he assumes that the same is happening in the civil service now. It is not ; the top people are appointed solely on the basis of their merit and intelligence.

Mr. Beaumont-Dark : Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is sad to hear the ex-leader of the Greater London council, who appointed people purely on political merit, suggest that senior civil servants are chosen on anything other than ability? Would it not be a sad day for this country if that attitude of mind took hold? We are well served by our civil servants. Although Governments come and go, governance in the civil service sector of this country continues untainted.

Mr. Renton : I agree with my hon. Friend. The civil service procedures for the most senior appointments are well established. They have been supported by both sides of the House for many years. They are based on ability to do the job. I do not believe that we should cast aside at all lightly the all-party support for these methods.

Staff Development

41. Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Minister for the Civil Service what opportunities exist for civil servants based in Great Britain to gain experience in duties relating to Northern Ireland as part of staff development programmes.

Mr. Renton : Staff are regularly seconded to the Northern Ireland Office from other Departments and agencies. In addition, several Departments offer postings to their offices in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Dalyell : May I welcome the presence of the Home Secretary and the shadow Home Secretary when asking a question of which I have given notice, in the hope of a serious reply? What is the House of Commons to make of the reports of serious on-going disagreements between, on the one hand, Mr. Ian Burns and other most senior officials in the Home Office and the Metropolitan police, as represented by Mr. Bill Taylor, and, on the other side of this subject of how to deal with Ireland-originating situations, Mrs. Stella Rimington whom the Government, with a fanfare of trumpets, announced as the head of MI5? Does the Minister agree that answering as he does, in a sense, for the Prime Minister, this is a very serious matter for the House of Commons?

Mr. Renton : I know that the hon. Gentleman tabled an early-day motion on the subject a short time ago. However, he well realises that these matters of detail are for response by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. If he catches your eye, Mr. Speaker, the hon. Gentleman may have an opportunity to raise the matter in the debate that is to take place later this afternoon.

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