House of Commons Hansard Debates for 25 Feb 1992

Mr. Eggar : I agree. The popularity of all the CTCs is beyond challenge. Despite deep and unremitting opposition from, in particular, the Labour-controlled councils of Lewisham and Southwark, Haberdashers' Aske's CTC has

Column 806

succeeded in attracting an overwhelming amount of interest from parents. My only regret is that the college is not able to take more of my hon. Friend's constituents.

Mr. Flannery : Surely the Minister--and all the other Ministers and other Tory Members--know that the CTCs are really private schools, siphoning off millions of pounds of public money. Is it not true--as my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) pointed out--that as much public money goes to one CTC, to which parents who have not gone through the normal process will have access, as to all the other schools in the area, and that it goes there at the same rate? The other schools have to share little or nothing while the city technology college gets the lot-- and it is public money.

Mr. Eggar : I imagine that this may well be the hon. Gentleman's last contribution to Education Question Time. I note that his question was as full of ideological claptrap as all the others that he has asked during his career in the House.

Further Education

10. Mr. Amess : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress is being made with plans to give further education and sixth-form colleges more independence.

Mr. Kenneth Clarke : Excellent progress is being made with our plans, which are the subject of the Further and Higher Education Bill currently before Parliament, to give colleges independence from local authority control.

Mr. Amess : Following the visit of our hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, North (Mr. Eggar) to Basildon last Friday, will my right hon. and learned Friend endorse our hon. Friend's statement that the independence that we are offering colleges of further education and sixth-form colleges such as Basildon's will enable them to be more effective, efficient and flexible than they can be at present? Will my right hon. and learned Friend agree to visit Basildon this year to observe the excellent education standards enjoyed by my constituents?

Mr. Clarke : My hon. Friend the Minister of State was very impressed by his visit to Basildon, and I should certainly be interested in visiting it myself if and when my diary allowed it. I have visited sixth-form colleges in Thurrock and Boston this year, and I recently addressed the annual meeting of the Association of Colleges for Further and Higher Education. I agree that the colleges are looking forward to their independence and to expanding the opportunities for further education available to our young people. I find that they bitterly regret the Labour party's dogmatic commitment to repeal, contrary to the wishes of the college principals, the Bill going through the House precisely because the Opposition Front Bench are acting at the behest of a few backwoodsmen Labour county councillors throughout the country.

Mr. Fatchett : The Secretary of State will be aware that further education colleges charge their students for certain activities related to the curriculum--not tuition fees, but other activities. When the Bill goes through, if it does, sixth-form colleges will have the same freedom. Will the Secretary of State now give a guarantee that no sixth-form

Column 807

college student will be charged for activities in relation to the school curriculum, or is this to be yet another example of pay-as-you-learn under the Conservative Government?

Mr. Clarke : I know of no realistic reason for expecting any sixth- form college to introduce charges of the kind described. Sixth-form colleges will be funded on the basis that they carry on with their present practice. I have not met a college principal who intends to change that practice. The hon. Gentleman is merely trying to raise obscure scares about our proposals when he knows from his own visit to the association that the policy is extremely popular with all the principals and that his statement- -that the colleges would be given back to his friends in Labour councils-- was greeted with widespread dismay there.

PRIME MINISTER

Engagements

Q1. Mr. Kilfoyle : To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 25 February.

The Prime Minister (Mr. John Major) : This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today.

Mr. Kilfoyle : The Prime Minister recently told the House that the British economy had grown faster than any other in Europe, when it has not ; he said that the Japanese economy was in recession, when it is not ; and he said that German unemployment was over 3 million, when it is not. Given that series of gaffes, will he now compound his confusion and tell us that he bears no personal responsibility for the appalling slump that is devastating Britain today?

The Prime Minister : As the hon. Gentleman knows, there is a recession in a number of countries. I quote from what Sir Allen Sheppard of Grand Met said yesterday :

"One thing which no one could predict a year ago was exactly how long the recession would last This recession has not been an exclusively British phenomenon--as some people would have us believe. It is a worldwide problem ; only last week we heard the news that Europe's strongest economy, Germany, had slowed down."

Those are not my words, but those of Sir Allen Sheppard of Grand Met.

Sir Peter Blaker : Will my right hon. Friend consult his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster about the attempt being made to steal the emblem of the duchy? Is he aware that on a previous occasion when such an attempt was made, the miscreant--an imposter named Lambert Simnel, who attempted to steal the red rose from King Henry VII-- was not only defeated but sentenced to serve as a scullion in the royal kitchens? What does my right hon. Friend think would be the appropriate sentence now?

The Prime Minister : It is difficult to find anything entirely appropriate. Perhaps continuous service as Leader of the Opposition would do.

Mr. Kinnock : Does the Prime Minister recall saying a short time ago in his personal statement--in this document from the Conservative party-- that "if" Government

"borrowing takes the strain, taxes have to go up"

Column 808

Does he still take that view?

The Prime Minister : As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I was Chief Secretary for two years and Chancellor for one year. Because of the repayments that were made of borrowing during that period, in the midst of a recession we are now in a better position to borrow prudently-- [Interruption.] than we have been at any stage in the past : to borrow prudently and to maintain our commitment to a balanced budget in the medium term. Before the right hon. Gentleman reflects further, he may recall that the borrowing requirement was 9 per cent. of GDP under the last Labour Government--the equivalent to borrowing today £55 billion.

Mr. Kinnock : The Prime Minister is now borrowing billions to try to finance a pre-election tax cut, so will he tell us exactly which other taxes he would raise to pay for the bribe?

The Prime Minister : The right hon. Gentleman knows very well that I cannot prejudge my right hon. Friend's Budget, and I have no intention of doing so. He should also realise that tax is levied on people's own money : it does not belong to the Government ; it is their money that the Government compulsorily take away from them in taxation. Taxation levels determine how much. We know that the right hon. Gentleman would add to taxation, for he needs to in order to sustain his promises.

Mr. Kinnock : The Prime Minister said a very short time ago that "If" Government

"borrowing takes the strain, taxes--not just our taxes"--

[Hon. Members :-- "We have heard this before."] And you are going to hear it again : "If" Government

"borrowing takes the strain, taxes--not just our taxes but the next generation's too--have to go up."

Does not the Prime Minister think that he owes it to the country to say exactly which other taxes he would put up to pay for his bribe?

The Prime Minister : The right hon. Gentleman should have done a little more research. If he had done a little more research and had seen the evidence that I gave to the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee in 1987, he would have seen then--when we had a fiscal surplus of many billions--that I indicated that it would be right, in a downturn, to borrow money in a recession. Would the right hon. Gentleman prefer to do what Labour last did--cut the hospital building programme and cut the other programmes? That is what it did before.

Mr. William Powell : I thank my right hon. Friend for coming to Corby last Friday to open the magnificent Brooke city technology college. Does he agree that this type of secondary school has a substantial part to play in the future education of our children in the secondary sector, and will he encourage the development of further city technology colleges in our country?

The Prime Minister : I certainly enjoyed my visit to the Brooke city technology college last week. It is an excellent establishment and has attracted a good deal of support and resources from the private sector. I think that that is the sort of choice that parents want for their children, and it widens the opportunities in education. It is inexplicable to me that the Labour party would wish to stop this continuing and successful experiment.

Column 809

Q2. Mrs. Margaret Ewing : To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tueday 25 February.

The Prime Minister : I refer the hon. Lady to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mrs. Ewing : As the Prime Minister has now had time to appreciate the significance that Scots attach to the phrase "taking stock", will he elaborate on what that means in the Scottish constitutional set-up? Is it an affirmation of what his junior energy Minister says : that it will be acceptable for the Scottish Office to be staffed by Members from constituencies south of the border, or of what his Foreign Secretary and Secretary of State for Scotland have said in the past 24 hours : that nothing will happen, or is he considering the possibility of affording the Scottish people the right to determine their own future in a democratic fashion? Will there be a referendum or any other mechanism to establish a Scottish Parliament?

The Prime Minister : The hon. Lady's party seeks isolation for Scotland. I do not believe that that prescription is in the interests of Scotland or of the rest of the United Kingdom. I said that we would be taking stock, and I meant precisely that--taking stock on the basis of an increased vote in Scotland, on the basis of more Members of Parliament for Scotland and on ways of seeking to increase the strength of the Union. That is what I mean by taking stock.

Mr. Dover : Is the Prime Minister aware that millions of people are fed up with having to pay extra community charge to cover those who do not pay? Will he encourage all local authorities to ensure that people pay their bills promptly and will he ensure that future charges are reduced when that money comes into council coffers?

The Prime Minister : I certainly agree with my hon. Friend that we need to pursue those who do not pay the community charge and, in particular, we should pursue those Members of the House who do not pay the community charge and set a bad example to everyone else.

Q3. Mr. Chris Smith : To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 25 February.

The Prime Minister : I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Smith : Does the Prime Minister agree with the proposition that it is entirely sensible for a Government to borrow prudently in order to fund capital investment to build economic recovery but that it is sheer folly for a Government to borrow in order to buy votes for an election? Would that not be fiscal philandering of the worst kind?

The Prime Minister : Without in any way prejudging what my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will do in the Budget, I seem to recall that the last Labour Government--on the back of a huge borrowing requirement--cut taxes just in advance of the 1979 election. But if the hon. Gentleman wants to know about investment, let me give him some information about investment. We now have the largest investment programme of capital investment in the national health service that we have ever had. Next year hospital spending in capital terms will be 75 per cent. up on the last year of the Labour Government. Those are the fruits of an improved economy over the last 10 years.

Column 810

Mr. Tracey : Will my right hon. Friend restate his commitment to the assisted places scheme in our schools, which is an extremely cost-effective way of sending children of high ability to good schools? Is it not short- sighted for both Opposition parties to be pledged to the abolition of this scheme?

The Prime Minister : It is an extremely popular scheme, as my hon. Friend knows. We will sustain that scheme in the next Parliament. The Opposition parties would abolish it, given the chance.

Q4. Mr. Alan W. Williams : To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 25 February.

The Prime Minister : I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Williams : Having been Chief Secretary to the Treasury before becoming Chancellor, and Chancellor before becoming Prime Minister, is the Prime Minister really trying to tell us that he bears no responsibility whatever for the recession? Why is the Prime Minister continually trying to blame everyone else when it is his own errors of judgment, mistakes and economic incompetence that have produced the current recession?

The Prime Minister : I think that the hon. Gentleman builds too much on too little. I made it clear on a number of occasions over recent years that there was, in retrospect, one change that I wish we had not made at the time, but it was one that was urged on us by right hon. Gentlemen opposite. That was the reduction of interest rates immediately on the back of the stock exchange crash, but, as the hon. Gentleman knows, we were urged to cut them even more by the Leader of the Opposition and the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith). What responsibility will they accept for that?

Mr. Butcher : Can my right hon. Friend give a guarantee that he will never propose the introduction of unnecessary and expensive regional assemblies in England and Wales? Does he agree that when Opposition parties advocate such bodies they do so with the entirely cynical objective of maintaining the over-representation of Scotland in this House in the aftermath of the dog's breakfast called devolution?

The Prime Minister : Such assemblies are neither wanted nor needed, and we will not propose them.

Q5. Mr. Jack Thompson : To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 25 February.

The Prime Minister : I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Thompson : Is the Prime Minister aware that since 1979 the crime figures in England and Wales have gone up by 102 per cent., that in the north of England they have gone up by 123 per cent. and that in the Northumbria police force area--my area--robberies have gone up by 240 per cent. and criminal damage by 238 per cent? The Home Office is advising the police to increase the number of officers while at the same time the Department of the Environment is capping local authorities' spending. How does the Prime Minister square that circle?

Column 811

The Prime Minister : If the hon. Gentleman is so concerned about law and order, perhaps he could explain to me why his party refuses to support the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act, which was introduced initially by a Labour Government and is now opposed by a Labour Opposition. He might also have mentioned in his remarks that spending on law and order is up by 80 per cent. in real terms and that there are 15,500 more police officers, whereas Labour left the police force under establishment by 7,000 when it left office. Labour has opposed our measures which have led to stiffer sentences, it would shackle the police with political controls and its answer to rising crime is to blame everyone except the criminal.

Next Section (Debates)

Home Page