House of Commons Hansard Debates for 6 May 1992

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The Gracious Speech has much in it that we can appreciate and look to for the future and about which I shall be willing to learn more. However, there is much in it which I fundamentally oppose and about which I have grave concern for my constituents and the future of major services and industries in my constituency. I mention in particular the proposal to privatise British Coal. My constituents who work at the Point of Ayr colliery in my constituency will oppose that proposal. The many people for whom the colliery provides employment in the hinterland of the Point of Ayr colliery will oppose that proposal. Many people throughout the constituency who have no involvement with the coal industry will oppose that proposal. Point of Ayr is fundamental to future employment in the northern part of my constituency. The Rothschild report, which was published in leaked form before the election, indicates quite clearly that under a privatised British Coal the Point of Ayr colliery would be no more. When the opportunity arises, I shall fight that Bill tooth and nail in the House and elsewhere to make sure that the people of my constituency get a fair deal.

It is not a matter of dogma--it is a matter of common sense. We are not talking about, and nor are people in my constituency necessarily concerned about, the ownership of British Coal. The dogma on that matter comes from the Government. We are concerned about good management, investment in the coal industry, investment in decent working conditions for the people who work in that pit, productivity, and support for those people to produce coal at effective, cheap prices. In the coming months, there will be arguments about ownership and profitability. As I have said, I have three children under five. What is profitable today will not necessarily be profitable in future. We have valuable reserves now, but in the future my children and grandchildren will need resources which such a Bill will deny people, allowing them to consider only the profit motive in the coal industry.

I also heard with dismay about the involvement of the private sector in British Rail. In my constituency, there is a great need for further investment in Flint and Prestatyn railway stations and, as my colleagues who represent constituencies in Wales and Cheshire know, the improvements in the Crewe-Holyhead railway link. Privatisation and private sector involvement in British Rail will do nothing to support the improvement of services in my constituency. They will do nothing to invest in the future of rail links to my constituency, and nothing whatsoever to ensure the security of viable, important transport links to Flint and Prestatyn stations. I will oppose such a measure when the opportunity arises.

Like my hon. Friends, I was disappointed at what was not in the Gracious Speech. On 9 April, in Wales, 27 Labour Members of Parliament were elected, compared with six Conservatives, four Welsh nationalists and one Liberal Democrat. I make no quibble about being part of the United Kingdom, because we are rightfully part of the United Kingdom. However, if Conservative Members wish to impose their policies on the people of Wales, they must listen to hon. Members who were elected to represent the Welsh people and who have valid points of view to put forward.

The Welsh Office currently spends more than £6,000 million per year. There are 42 quangos throughout Wales dealing with every aspect of public life in our community. There are thousands upon thousands of investments by the Government in Wales. Yet there are only three Ministers,

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one of whom does not even represent a seat in Wales. They spend and invest that resource on behalf of the people of that community. As the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley) said, 70 per cent. of the people of Wales did not vote for the Government. I do not ask that you discard your programme. It is your right to implement it. I ask that you simply--

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes) : Order. I remind the hon. Member that he must address the Chair.

Mr. Hanson : Of course, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a learner's mistake. I shall come back in due course and learn by experience. Conservative Members have the mandate to run the United Kingdom and put forward their policies in the United Kingdom, but I trust that they will listen closely to those of us who have won seats in Wales and represent the people of Wales. I hope that they will introduce policies for Wales.

I was also strongly disappointed to see no action proposed in the Queen's Speech on the minimum wage, which a Labour Government would have introduced had we been elected on 9 April. It is not a lot to ask that people in my constituency should earn £3.40 per hour. Many people in my area, particularly in Flint, Holywell, Bagillt and Greenfield, earn much less than £3.40 per hour. I hoped that the Government would see fit to introduce legislation to begin to abolish low pay and fall into line with our Community partners, who believe that a minimum wage is essential and valuable.

In the coming months many points will come before the House on which I shall wish to speak. I am proud to be the Labour Member of Parliament for the Delyn constituency and proud to make my maiden speech here today in front of colleagues whom I have known for many years. I am proud to represent the people of my constituency. The Gracious Speech contains proposals which we shall oppose fundamentally and which will affect my constituency drastically. I look forward to the opportunity to vote against them and to the day when we shall sit on the Government Benches introducing the policies on which I was elected on 9 April.

9.6 pm

Mr. David Amess (Basildon) : I am truly grateful to have the opportunity to make a speech which some weeks ago people forecast that I would not be in a position to make. But may I first congratulate you, Madam Deputy Speaker, on your appointment. I am sure that I speak on behalf of hon. Members on both sides of the House in saying that we are delighted at your appointment and we wish you well in the next five years.

I congratulate the hon. Members for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Mr. Miller), for Barrow and Furness (Mr. Hutton), for Delyn (Mr. Hanson) and, although it was not his maiden speech, for Cornwall, North (Mr. Tyler). I listened carefully to those speeches and I congratulate all those hon. Members on their eloquence, the passion with which they spoke, their concern for their constituents and the great understanding in a short space of time of their constituencies. All I can say is that the 1992 intake is obviously of a high calibre. Although politically I have

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nothing in common with Opposition Members, I wish them well in the future. On behalf of Conservative Members, I thank them for their gracious and generous tributes to my hon. Friends whom they defeated.

We lost 44 Members of Parliament. As Opposition Members would expect me to say, I held each and every one of them in high regard. It will be remembered and noted that Opposition Members were so generous in their speeches. In particular, I shall miss my friend, Ken Hargreaves, who was the Member for Hyndburn. He was well respected in the House. One could not find a more hard-working Member of Parliament than Ken Hargreaves. He will be truly missed. Much has been said about the constituency of Basildon. Some have described it as a remarkable win. That is certainly not the case. It was my good fortune that mine was the first marginal seat result to be shown on television. I have received in my postbag letters not only from within the United Kingdom but from all over the world. There were many more remarkable Tory victories than mine. My victory is due to the tremendous campaign in my constituency. I was supported by Lady Emily Blatch, our former colleagues Cecil Parkinson and Norman Tebbit, my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, South (Mr. Yeo) the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Social Security, the former Prime Minister, Mrs. Margaret Thatcher, and, to complete a winning team, Henry Cooper. I realise that I am straying somewhat from the main content of the Gracious Speech, but I shall come to that shortly.

Madam Deputy Speaker : Very shortly.

Mr. Amess : Very shortly, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I am grateful to each and every one of those who campaigned in my constituency. I am also grateful to the Leader of the House of Commons, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Southend, West (Mr. Channon), my hon. Friends the Members for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor) and for Rochford (Dr. Clark), Sir Bernard Braine and my hon. Friends the Members for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) and for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman), all of whom brought teams over to help me. There is no secret about how we won the seat in Basildon. I campaigned on the contents of the Gracious Speech that we heard today, all of which was contained in our election manifesto, "The Best Future for Britain". I campaigned on my record as a constituency Member for the past nine years and on the Government's record. On both counts, my constituents decided to send me back to Westminster and our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to Downing street, once again to form a Conservative Government. That is how we won locally and nationally.

In going through the Gracious Speech, I was particularly drawn to the sentence that says :

"Britain's minimum nuclear deterrent will be maintained." How often we listened to lectures from Opposition Members about the defence of this country. At one time, they were against us defending ourselves, and the next minute they wanted us to defend ourselves. GEC Avionics was in my constituency. Naturally we were glad when perestroika and glasnost led to eastern bloc countries being freed to enjoy democracy, but, as we said time and again, there was a real downside to that for

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those of us with defence establishments in our constituencies. Therefore, it was a real disgrace when during the general election Conservatives were lectured about job losses in those defence establishments. We were the ones who warned about that at the time. All along we said what the downside would be. I am delighted that we have reaffirmed in the Gracious Speech that we shall maintain strong defences because at the moment the world is less certain than it has ever been.

In the Gracious Speech, we mention that we shall lay before Parliament the treaty of Maastricht and introduce a Bill to implement it. I was delighted with the agreement that our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister brought back from Maastricht. I believe, and I know that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister shares my view, that this Parliament is sovereign and it is fundamental that it should retain its powers of taxation. It is our privilege to have the presidency of the Community in July and I hope that my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary will ensure that we have a strong voice in the next six months.

The Government have said all along that it is essential to retain low inflation and low interest rates. As a result of our membership of the European exchange rate mechanism, those twin goals could be won for ever, so that we shall no longer have to suffer the cyclical development of boom and recession. I was delighted at the interest rate cut that we announced yesterday.

The Gracious Speech also says that the Government

"are committed to increasing the role of the railways in meeting the country's transport needs. Legislation will be introduced to enable the private sector to operate rail services."

The House has sometimes heard my hon. Friends and me talk about the Fenchurch Street line. About six months ago we invited the chairman of British Rail to travel with us on that line because the service is disgraceful. My long-suffering constituents have faith that the Government will ensure that, if the management of British Rail cannot provide a good service to the three railway stations in my constituency--Basildon, Pitsea and Laindon--they will jolly well give the opportunity to others to see whether they can better manage that service. I am delighted that we are now joined by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, a fellow Essex Member who shares my concern about the Fenchurch Street line.

I am also delighted that the Gracious Speech says that

"Action will be taken to combat crime and promote law and order." As I said a few months ago, I was delighted that one of the few constituencies to see a fall in crime over the past year

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was Basildon. It is my great pleasure to congratulate our local police and the community on their good work in the past year, which has resulted in that reduction of crime.

I was disappointed in the remarks by the Leader of the Opposition, who was most disparaging about the excellent work done by the former Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Mr. Baker), on the national lottery. It is a splendid scheme, welcomed throughout the country, and I have no doubt that it will be a great success. I gently warn the Government that Basildon will put in a bid to have the national headquarters in our town. I hope that we shall have national draws on television, with someone like Joan Collins to pull the winning ticket out of the hat.

The Gracious Speech also says that the

"Government will continue to improve the quality of the national health service and community care and their responsiveness to patients' needs."

How sad that, throughout the four weeks of the general election campaign, the Opposition Front Bench spokesmen sought to run down the national health service. We shall never forget their disgraceful party political broadcast. We have an excellent health service, particularly in Basildon. On 1 April, our hospital achieved trust status and the men and women who work there look forward to the successes that we shall enjoy in health care.

I note the sentence stating :

"A Bill will be presented to promote the Welsh language." Of course, we Conservatives welcome and support that, but I am gently beginning to wonder if it might not be a good idea to promote the English language.

Just before the Prime Minister decided to hold the general election, I noticed a tendency among Opposition Members. When Conservative Members representing marginal constituencies rose to make speeches in the Chamber, some Opposition Members waved their arms, said "Goodbye" and mentioned that there would be a Labour gain. I make no complaint as I was not subjected to that, but I wonder if I may be given the opportunity, on behalf of my colleagues with marginal constituencies who were re-elected, to say, "Hello, it's nice to be back." I look forward to the next five years in the knowledge that my constituents decided that their best future would be to keep a Conservative Government and a Conservative Member of Parliament for Basildon. I am immodest enough to say that, on both counts, I believe that they have made the right decision.

Debate adjourned.--[Mr. Arbuthnot.]

Debate to be resumed tomorrow.

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Severn Bridge (Toll Charges)

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.-- [Mr. Arbuthnot.]

9.21 pm

Mr. Roy Hughes (Newport, East) : I take this opportunity to congratulate you, Madam Deputy Speaker, on your appointment. From my experience in the House, I know that it is well deserved. I am glad to have the opportunity on the first day of the new Parliament to raise the subject of toll charges on the Severn bridge. Standing Order No. 20, which deals with requests for emergency debates, refers to

"the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration".

Tonight's debate is in the same category.

The vast majority of the people of Wales live on the narrow coastal strip stretching from Carmarthen to Chepstow. The Severn bridge serves that district and is the main access point for traffic travelling in and out of Wales. It was opened in September 1966 by Her Majesty the Queen and was built at a cost of £8 million, which was a charge on the Consolidated Fund--no bank charges were involved. That figure of £8 million was a flea bite compared with the overall level of public expenditure, but it has caused problems. It has been repaid many times over in toll charges. I understand that, up to 25 April, £113.4 million had been collected in tolls. However, the taxpayer, who initially paid for the bridge, is being fleeced and is having to pay interest charges on the money provided. To compound that farce and add insult to injury, the Government handed over the bridge to a French-American backed consortium. It was also given the power and authority to build a second bridge, under the Severn Bridges Act 1991. I understand that the new bridge will cost about £300 million. Further powers under the Act were given to enable tolls to be collected for up to 35 years, and over the next 30 years the consortium is expected to collect at least £1 billion. To my simple mind, it seems that the consortium is being given a licence to print money.

Since the bridge was opened in 1966, traffic flows have increased dramatically. In the first year of its operation the average daily flow was 15,600 vehicles--5.7 million a year. Now, about 19 million vehicles a year use the bridge, which is 52,000 a day. These figures seem to illustrate that the forecasts by the Department of Transport were way out.

This massive increase in traffic had a detrimental effect on the structure of the bridge. In November 1983, I revealed to the House the contents of what had been until then a secret report from an independent firm of consultants ; it showed that there was serious cause for concern about the state of the bridge. The Government were forced into a programme of repairs and strengthening. According to the Department of Transport, in the period to September 1991, that programme had cost £83 million, but we were originally told by the same Department that the work would cost just over £30 million. There seems to be a question mark over the forecasting accuracy of the Department of Transport--the same Department whose spokesman recently advised us that

"there is no evidence that tolls cause any significant damage to the Welsh economy."

He could have fooled some of us.

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The cost of the repair work was added to the original cost of the bridge. The interest charges were added and the overall debt spiralled. On 25 April, when the handover took place, the debt stood at £125.2 million. So the bridge cost £8 million, £113.4 million was collected in tolls, and the debt left over is £125.2 million. That is farcical.

In the year 1990-91, road users paid £19 billion in vehicle and fuel taxes, which I am reliably informed represents 12 per cent. of all tax revenue. Less than 24 per cent. of that £19 billion is spent on roads. With all this revenue coming into the Exchequer, surely a tiny portion could have been used to pay for the strengthening work on the Severn bridge --the principal access point of Wales. After all, the bridge is merely a two-mile stretch of the M4. Some 10 miles away, the bridge on the M5 serving Avonmouth has no tolls. One does not have to be a racist to suggest that the Government are prejudiced against Wales.

Given the huge amount of £19 billion accruing to the Exchequer from motor taxation, why should there be tolls on this short stretch of motorway leading into Wales? Wales has tremendous economic problems and heavy unemployment. The coal industry has been virtually wiped out and there have been massive redundancies and closures in the steel industry. There is a basic need to attract new industry, and I acknowledge that there has been a measure of success, but much more is needed. Despite all those difficulties, this "caring" Government have chosen to place a huge tax burden on our principal traffic network.

The new French-American backed consortium took control on Sunday 26 April and the following morning there was absolute chaos on the bridge. I spent an hour at the toll booth and saw things at first hand and spoke to drivers who had been escorted off the bridge because, coinciding with the takeover, there was a massive increase in toll charges.

Perhaps it is symbolic that the consortium has changed the tolling arrangements so that motorists are penalised for coming into Wales. Cars now pay £2.80, small vans pay £5.60 and lorries and buses pay £8.40. It is reckoned that our supermarkets need to be serviced twice a day. Close to the bridge there is a major Tesco distribution centre. Surely the £8.40 toll charge will be reflected in prices in the store. The same applies to buses. People are encouraged to use public transport, but the massive toll charges will undoubtedly increase fares.

On the morning of 27 April there was a large police presence on the bridge. I have written to the chief constables of both Avon and Gwent asking who paid for that operation. The police did a good job, but, bearing in mind the ever-escalating crime rate, surely police time could be better spent than on a bridge owned by a foreign backed consortium assisting in the process of extracting tolls from increasingly alienated motorists. Our police deserve better than that.

Many vehicles had to be escorted off the bridge because their drivers were not carrying sufficient money to pay the increased charges. Some positively refused to pay. A hostile atmosphere was generated. There was a particular grievance over small vans which previously paid the same toll as a car but were now being made to pay the second category of £5.60, the same as the charge for a minibus. That must be especially damaging to one-man businesses. What a burden those tolls must be on, say, a plumber or a small builder who may need to cross the bridge several

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times a day. Yet these tolls have essentially been imposed by a Government who claim to be the champion of small business. I spoke to drivers who had handfuls of vouchers that had been issued previously by Avon county council. The vouchers were no longer valid and the drivers were escorted off the bridge by the police. There were even instances of drivers who were 10p short of toll charges being turned away. How ridiculous can we get? In the days of the Berlin wall it must have been easier to cross from East Germany to the west.

The greed of the consortium seems to know no bounds. I shall give two examples, the first of which is phone charges. For many years crossing the Severn bridge has been fraught with difficulties, and I am well aware that many hon. Members have had personal experience. Motorists tended to phone to check on the situation at the bridge before embarking on their journey. That applied to business appointments or to a husband or wife waiting at home. They paid as little as 10p for recorded information. The new service introduced by the consortium costs 28p a minute between 8 am and 6 pm. The cost is £2.76 for the full message between those times and £2.07 at other times. The new owners' share of income from telephone calls--as many as 5,000 motorists a day can use the system--will range up to £1,000 a day. Did the Government agree to this extortion beforehand? One constituent, Mr. Francis, of The Mooring in Newport, asks specifically to whose coffers the money will go. The answer is pretty clear.

Secondly, there are postal charges for pre-paid toll tickets. The members of the consortium, these latter-day highway robbers, are charging £2.35 for this service. It was previously provided free of charge by Avon county council. Mr. M. A. Boden, the managing director of a large Ford dealership in Chepstow, is sorely grieved. In a letter addressed to me of 30 April he wrote :

"We attempted to buy advance tickets. In the past we applied for these from Avon County Council and paid by cheque for the book of tickets. Our driver presented herself at the Advance Ticket Unit today with a company cheque to purchase books for our use, only to be told that they could not be released until the cheque had cleared. Obviously our previous creditworthiness with Avon County Council counts for nothing with the new administrators and we then expected to be told to come back in three days' time when the cheque had cleared. Not so, we are not allowed to collect the books until the 11th May 1992."

As I have said, Mr. Boden is sorely grieved.

Another of my constituents, Mr. Roberts of 21 Victoria way, Magor, wanted a book of 25 tickets. He had to queue for 45 minutes. He has expressed his disgust with the entire situation on the bridge. Many will endorse his sentiments.

I have a further reference to make about the foreign-backed consortium. It has tried to sugar the pill. Severn Crossing plc has appointed as its chairman a Member of the other place and former Member of the House of Commons--a Liberal and a Welshman, Lord Hooson. Breathes there a man with soul so dead? What has the Liberal party come to? David Lloyd George must be turning in his grave. One of the most famous social and historical incidents in Wales was the occasion of the Rebecca riots. Those riots were all about the fight against toll charges on our roads. Now, the Government are trying to justify their exploitation of Wales by attempting to misrepresent the position of the Labour party.

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When Labour came to power at the end of 1964, the Severn bridge was at an advanced stage of construction. All the plans had been made, and all the agreements had been signed under the outgoing Conservative Transport Minister, Mr. Ernest Marples. Moreover, Welsh Labour Members had opposed the introduction of toll charges. An outstanding example was the late right hon. Ness Edwards, who represented Caerphilly. He had long advocated the construction of a Severn crossing.

When the first toll charges were introduced, the amount was in any case relatively small--two shillings and sixpence--and the bridge was a relative novelty. What is more, Wales was experiencing a period of full employment. How different things are today.

Had a Labour Government been elected last month, it is clear what it would have done. The intention was to phase out toll charges through the rescheduling of debt. On 5 March, my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley), the deputy leader of my party, stated categorically, "Tolls must go." He went on to say :

"While we will not break contracts there are ways of renegotiating contracts."

That was clearly a reference to the two Severn crossings. The Government have been in power for 13 years, and have enjoyed all the benefits of North sea oil revenues. During that period, the original cost of the bridge has been paid for over and over again. Surely, if the Government felt any concern for the welfare of Wales, they would have wiped out that fictional debt on the Consolidated Fund long ago. The fact that they did not do so illustrates their contempt for Wales.

Individual Welsh firms have protested, but unfortunately Welsh business has no real champion. CBI Wales is impotent ; it is hand in glove with the Government. How different has been the attitude of our local authorities. Gwent county council has been adamant in its opposition ; so have the three Glamorgan county councils. The same applies to the Gwent district council association. Chepstow county council--which is near the bridge on the Welsh side--has a senior economist, Mr. Steve Hill, as its mayor this year. He has conducted a detailed analysis, and has concluded that the toll charges are seriously detrimental to the economy of the area.

I believe that the Government should enter into fresh negotiations with the consortium. They should insist that small vans be returned to their original category. Also, people living within a 20-mile radius of the bridge and working on the other side of the estuary should be eligible for a discount of up to 50 per cent. on the toll charge. The same should apply to the transport used by firms operating within the same radius. The Government should tell the consortium that, if it is prepared to reduce tolls correspondingly, they will wipe out the debt on the existing bridge.

Tolls are an anachronism and should be phased out on all estuarial crossings. They are an illogical disruption of traffic flow and impose considerable wear and tear on vehicles. The Select Committee on Transport, in its report in 1986, recommended the abolition of tolls.

I notice from the Western Mail today that Mr. John Prosser QC has joined our fight. He was held up in a three-mile tailback yesterday and was three quarters of an hour late for a hearing at Cardiff Crown court. He said that it was a disgrace and advised others, as well as himself, to protest to the Department of Transport.

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The Severn Bridges Act 1992 is little short of an obscenity and the Government will regret its passing. This time they have gone a bridge too far.

9.46 pm

Mr. Rhodri Morgan (Cardiff, West) : I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, East (Mr. Hughes) on having the perspicacity last week to obtain this Adjournment debate, the first of this Parliament, on such an important issue. It is not just a constituency matter as it affects the entire region of industrial south Wales. He has spoken passionately about it and has done so for many years. I wish to add what I can on behalf of the residents of the three Glamorgans, to which my hon. Friend has already referred. He has spoken on behalf of us all, but particularly on behalf of the county of Gwent. The only point on which I disagree with him is his suggestion of a 20-mile radius. I should prefer a 30-mile radius so that my constituency would be included in the area eligible for discount for frequent use of the bridge by those who commute from south Wales to the Bristol area for their daily employment. The problem is not so much with the formula, which we have become used to even though we do not approve of it. The formula involves setting a price and then, as the Government would put it, capping the price increase each year by relating it to the rate of inflation--for example, retail price index plus so and so. We are used to that with water, gas, electricity and British Telecom. The problem is with the baseline on which the formula is set. If the old toll amount of 20p per car, which I believe was the price no more than three or four years ago, were still in existence, 20p plus a certain amount every year according to inflation would be seen as fairly reasonable by everybody in south Wales. However, over a very short time an unbelievable 700 per cent. increase has taken place in the basic car toll and I believe that the increase is similar for lorries and other heavyweight vehicles such as vans. It is no use the Government saying that they have concluded a beneficial arrangement for the consumer--whereby after 1 April this year prices cannot go up by more than the rate of inflation plus an allowance for any unexpected difficulties that the company may find--when the baseline for that annual increase formula has been jacked up to an unbelievable degree in the past three or four years.

First, the charge went up from 20p to 50p, which in itself was a 250 per cent. increase ; then there was a 100 per cent. increase to £1. Finally, a further 40 per cent. increase on 1 April this year took it up to £1.40 for a one-way ticket and £2.80 for a return. I believe that that represents a 700 per cent. increase over four years. No doubt the Minister will correct me if my memory does not serve me well.

Even over a 10-year period, a 700 per cent. increase would be gross and unbelievable--and no basis for a fair formula for the constructors of the new bridge and the users of the old bridge. Any fair formula would be related to the original 20p, which in itself was a big increase on the formula set in the 1960s. It is ridiculous to increase the charge from 20p to £1.40 and then claim that a fair bargain has been struck between the producer--the constructor of the bridge--and the ordinary consumers, the users of the

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bridge. The formula is utterly one sided, and is intended to produce for the constructors of the new bridge a licence to print money.

We heard a lot in the Loyal Address earlier today about the need for more consumer choice, and the need to introduce accountability through the citizens charter, for the benefit of ordinary citizens and the users of public services. But we do not get anything like that with the bridge.

If a private company wants to build a new Severn bridge and thinks that it can beat the costs of the existing public sector bridge, why not have two bridges ? Why not have one private sector bridge and one public sector bridge ? But do we have choice ? We certainly do not. To produce a guaranteed monopoly income which can go into the bank and produce profits for the company mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, East, we have to sell the company the existing public sector bridge. That means that the company owns both bridges and has a total monopoly on crossings of the Severn south of Gloucester, and that we in south Wales have no other way of travelling along the national motorway system to London, to the south-east of England or to the continent without passing through the usurious, monopolistic privatised bridge set-up. There is no competition, no choice, no two-sided reasonable fair bargain for the road users of south Wales, whether commercial or individual. The Government have created a Frankenstein's monster, and they will regret it in years to come. I believe that they have already been amazed by the serious adverse reaction to the new tolls. Now they will realise that the general public in south Wales-- possibly in the Bristol area, too--does not regard the formula of "RPI plus X" as fair. The truth, as seen in south Wales, is that that formula really means "RIP plus off".

Such a set-up is part of the Government's general method of saying that they will continue the drive towards decreasing the basic rate of income tax from 25p to 20p in the pound. Of course that can be done, but only if they increase the fees, levies, supplementary charges and contributions that the public have to pay for everything else--things that are normally regarded as part of the purchase price for civilisation. When people pay income tax, they should get their roads, bridges, hospitals, schools, libraries and so on. They do not expect to have to pay income tax and then have to pay again through user charges, fees, contributions and levies. Wage earners do not care so much about what is taken out of their wage packets in income tax deductions as about the totality of stoppages, and what is left in their pockets at the end of the week to spend on the things that the Government do not provide. They expect things that the Government provide to have been taken care of already in the stoppages. That shows the essentially fraudulent nature of the Conservative contract with the British public. The Government will lower income tax but jack up every other tax they can think of, whether it be national insurance contributions, user charges for bridges, or other contributions that people are expected to make, plus other forms of taxes. There are 56 different kinds of taxes. Income tax will be brought down by a penny a year, or whatever, but everything else will cost a lot more.

The Severn bridge has brought home to everyone in south Wales the deceptive way the Government have with taxation. They reduce income tax, but increase every other form of taxation one can imagine. That is why we are

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making representations to the House on behalf of the whole of industrial south Wales. I am sure that Conservative Members, including the one or two here tonight who have been elected under Conservative colours, must be aware from correspondence from their constituents that the charges are regarded everywhere in industrial south Wales as a toll tax.

The charges are very unpopular and are regarded as an unfair bargain carried out behind Parliament's back. The details were withheld from the public in south Wales and in the south-west of England until the election was over. The Government will pay the price for that at the next election.

9.55 pm

Mr. Paul Flynn (Newport, West) : I join in the congratulations offered to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, on your appointment. I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, East (Mr. Hughes) on securing this debate. I agree with virtually everything that has been said and I will not repeat earlier points.

We are in an extraordinary situation. I have had more letters and more complaints from my constituents on this issue than on almost any other over the past five years. The reason is that many of my constituents in Newport, West choose to live in my constituency, and in my hon. Friends' constituencies in south Wales, and to work on the other side of the bridge. There was a considerable migration two or three years ago from the Bristol area to south Wales.

We find ourselves in the crazy position that, when Wales had campaigned for a bridge for over a decade, a Mephistophelian bargain was struck with the Government : if one had to have a bridge, one had to pay for it. That bargain seems to be doomed to continue for eternity. The alien consortium, to which the bridge and the second crossing were handed over, has proved in the first fortnight of its existence that it will screw every franc and every sou out of the people of south Wales.

I crossed the bridge on Tuesday, and we knew that there would be problems in the early days with the unfamiliarity of the toll and with change. On Tuesday, which is not a time of peak travel, and at midday, which is not a peak time of day for travelling, there was a six-mile queue coming into Wales. That means a wait of at least one hour.

Although Conservative Members may argue that the extraordinarily high rate of tolls is not a great additional cost on motoring, the perception of the cost is greatly magnified because the tolls have to be paid again and again as a single item. Many of the other costs of travel, such as the cost of vehicles and of petrol, and taxation, are taken care of and are not perceived as being such a burden. At present, Wales is seen as an area that is inaccessible and it seems that a great psychological barrier has been erected which deters people from coming in.

We know that there has been a devastating effect on people coming into Wales. It is rather like going into a safari park because people have to pay to go into Wales. Although there is some merit in charging for one way only--it has been effective in other countries--the charge has to be made for going into Wales because the inevitable hold-up if the charge was made on people coming the other way would mean that traffic would have to stand on the bridge, which would have many detrimental effects.

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Why are we being penalised in this way? Is it the responsibility of the people of Wales for demanding the bridge? The responsibility lies with the design of the bridge. As we well know, and as my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, East suggested, the design was experimental, like that of the box-girder bridge.

The expectation of traffic was greatly underestimated--not so much for cars but certainly for lorries. The Government have been extremely permissive in respect of lorries on the bridge and elsewhere. The chance of being stopped with a lorry that is overloaded is one in every 5,000 journeys. When the trading standards department of the Welsh counties carried out a trial recently, it found that a third of the lorries on the road were overloaded. It is overloaded or badly loaded lorries that have shaken the bridge into early senility, and costs have mounted--not because of the price of building the bridge originally but because of the price of the repairs. The people of Wales are being penalised for a rotten design.

As hon. Members have said, the road is the main artery into south Wales. It is also a great European route--the main route from the continent of Europe to Ireland--and is enormously important. It being Ten o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.-- [Mr. Arbuthnot.]

Mr. Flynn : In conclusion--[ Hon. Members :-- "Carry on."] I am encouraged by my hon. Friends' enthusiasm to continue.

The story of the bridge has been an extraordinary one. We hear, for example, about the charge for the telephone call. It seems an extraordinary bit of money-grabbing on the part of this alien consortium that it should have changed the telephone call system. Everyone will have to ring up because we are talking about the most unreliable piece of road in the country--more unreliable even than the M25 around London. A daily hold-up can almost be guaranteed. At one time, it was possible to avoid delays if one avoided peak hours, but that is no longer the case. The bridge is virtually guaranteed to be congested at virtually every time of day, so the telephone call is important to identify the odd window of opportunity to get across the bridge in less than half an hour.

The consortium has used the same technique as the pornographers--the obscenity industry--getting itself an 0898 number. Those who have used the service know that one has to listen for several minutes before hearing the punchline--the information that one requires. I congratulate the Western Mail on printing the whole five minutes of vacuous waffle produced by this alien consortium to get more money out of the unfortunate people of south Wales who use the bridge. In my constituency and in other constituencies in south Wales, an entirely new phenomenon is affecting jobs. The phrase "inward investment" is an ugly phrase used with some pride by the Government. We now have the phenomenon of outward divestment, whereby good jobs, jobs for the future, jobs in the sunrise industries--jobs at Inmos, at Parke-Davis in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy), and in Llanelli--are disappearing. The firms are not closing down, disappearing or going out of business : jobs are being siphoned out of Wales.

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Mr. Morgan : Renishaw.

Mr. Flynn : Yes, as my hon. Friend says, Renishaw. Those jobs are leaving Wales and most of them are arriving in France. Many of the Inmos jobs are going to Sicily, while other jobs are going to the third world, to Malta and Malaysia. Welsh jobs are disappearing from Wales by the process of outward divestment. When we bring people into Wales in an attempt to convince them that it is a suitable home for new industries, the barrier of the Severn bridge, with its daily queues, is a great disincentive to them to settle in south Wales. My son owns a small van, and he was caught on the first day--he had to make two journeys across the bridge. I declare a financial interest : I was horrified by the new charge. The charge is not only extraordinarily high--the increase for small vans is crazy ; it also involves change. One has either to wait for change or produce four or five different coins to the value of £5.60. That is totally unjustified. We know of the great problems that small businesses have suffered under this Government. The many business men who have written to me expressing their great anger want their voices to be heard here tonight. The Government must make a move on that. They cannot allow the charges to increase as they have now, and as they will in future. Wales is being subjected to highway robbery by a foreign Government.

10.4 pm

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