House of Commons Hansard Debates for 6 May 1992

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Kenneth Carlisle) : I join in the congratulations to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, on your new appointment. We on the Conservative Benches are delighted about that. I had the good fortune to experience your firm but sensitive handling of Committees upstairs. If you can bring that skill to the Chamber, as I am sure that you will, your appointment will be extremely popular. I wish you well. I also congratulate the hon. Member for Newport, East (Mr. Hughes) on obtaining the first Adjournment debate of this Parliament. I would expect no less from him, although it is quite an achievement. I welcome his colleagues, the hon. Members for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) and for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn), who have taken part in this important debate. This is my first reply from the Dispatch Box as Minister responsible for roads and I am certain that I will have the pleasure of attending many Adjournment debates in the next few months.

The House well knows the close interest that the hon. Member for Newport, East has long taken in the Severn bridge. Therefore, it is no surprise that he has used his experience of the House to seize this early opportunity to raise last week's changes at the bridge. I hope in my reply to set out the background to those changes and to consider the wider aspects of what we are trying to do in that area. The importance of the Severn crossing for the economy of south Wales is undeniable. Over the 25 years since the Severn bridge was opened in September 1966, traffic at the present bridge has grown threefold to a total approaching 19 million vehicles a year--more than 50,000 a day. The growth in traffic has been particularly rapid during much of the past decade, matching the recovery of the Welsh economy over that period. It is honest to admit that the economy of south Wales over the past decade has been transformed. We have seen the most encouraging level of foreign and other investment in that area-- [Interruption.]

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If the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) on the Opposition Front Bench is interested in my reply, perhaps he will listen to some of the success stories in the Welsh economy.

Mr. Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth) : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Carlisle : No, I am replying to the hon. Member for Newport, East.

The natural consequence of the growth has been that the capacity of the existing bridge is reaching saturation point. It will not be sufficient to meet the predicted levels of demand in future. Therefore, the Government gave a commitment as long ago as 1986 to provide additional capacity at the crossing. As a consequence, they set in train measures to provide that extra capacity. Work has now started on the construction of the second Severn crossing three miles downstream of the present bridge.

The new bridge and the link roads that will connect it to the motorway network will be open to traffic early in 1996. It will provide a major improvement in communications between England and Wales. In fact, it will more than double the road capacity across the Severn estuary and it will also offer shorter and more reliable journey times. It is a crucial development for the area and especially for south Wales where it should help to sustain the pace of economic regeneration and encourage further inward investment. More immediately, the construction of the new bridge will generate up to 1,000 jobs, the majority of which will be supplied locally. The second bridge is very important for south Wales. It shows that we are keeping faith with Wales. Our determination to complete the bridge as soon as possible is just what Wales wants. Two inquiries into tolls have concluded that tolls do not affect the economy of south Wales.

The bridge is very important for south-west England, too. The whole Bristol area is developing, and the good links between south Wales and the Bristol area will help to make that whole region of the United Kingdom even more prosperous. I do not believe that it should be seen as just a Welsh problem or an opportunity for Wales ; it is an opportunity for the whole United Kingdom.

Mr. Roy Hughes : Does the Minister appreciate that the toll is also detrimental to the economy of the south-west? People in the Chepstow- Newport area will not travel to Bristol to shop, to visit the Roman city of Bath, and so on. The toll is highly detrimental all round.

Mr. Carlisle : It seems to me that the growth in traffic across that bridge counteracts what the hon. Gentleman says. As I have said, two inquiries have shown that tolls do not affect the economy and certainly do not affect the volume of traffic. In any event, as we know, enterprise on that scale simply does not come cheaply. The new bridge alone will cost £300 million to build.

Equally clearly, however, the hon. Member for Newport, East finds it objectionable that users of the crossing, who will of course derive most benefit from the provision of the new bridge, should contribute to those costs. As he knows full well, for many years it has been the policy of successive Governments, both Labour and Conservative, that those who enjoy exceptional benefits from the provision of major estuarial crossings should contribute through tolls to the costs of providing them.

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Indeed, as the hon. Gentleman does not need reminding, although the plans for the tolling of the Severn bridge had been prepared under a Conservative Administration, as he pointed out, in 1965 a Labour Government decided to bring in legislation which originally imposed tolls on the bridge. Therefore, it seems to me that, unless there has been a sharp U-turn, tolls are good Labour policy. There was no difference between the two main parties about the need to pay for such major crossings by tolls.

The new tolling arrangments which came into force on 26 April, and about which the hon. Gentleman has expressed so much concern, reflect proposals which were submitted to the Government, in the competition to provide the new bridge, by the Laing-GTM consortium, later to become established as the Severn River Crossing company. Its proposal to design, build, finance and operate the new bridge, and to take over the financing and operation of the existing bridge, offered the best overall value for money of all those submitted, whether involving private finance or public finance. It follows that any other option for providing the new bridge would have meant that users of the crossing would sooner or later have had to pay more, rather than less, by way of tolls than is now to be the case. Indeed, there could have been delay in building that bridge.

Despite the hon. Members' concern about what they rather haughtily called a foreign-backed consortium, it is in fact a British registered and based company. The French company GTM-Entrepose has a 35 per cent. shareholding, but, as hon. Members will accept, it is simply the mirror image of the way in which many British firms have a stake in foreign companies and invest overseas.

The new tolls, which have been the subject of much comment, have been fixed under a formula laid out in the Severn Bridges Act 1992. The basis of the new arrangements, including the principle of tolling in only one direction and the likely level of tolls for each category of vehicle, was explained by the Department as far back as April 1990, when we announced the award of the concession to the Severn River Crossing company. Subsequently, the details of the final proposals were set out in the Severn Bridges Bill, which Parliament naturally had every opportunity to debate during its passage.

I fully appreciate that the new tolls involve a sharp increase, especially for the users of light vans, but it is fair to point out that at no stage during the passage of the Bill--including the Standing Committee, on which the hon. Member for Newport, East served--was any comment, adverse or otherwise, made about the treatment of those vehicles relative to that of other vehicles. Moreover, although it was a hybrid Bill, which provides the opportunity for objections to be raised by way of petitions, no petitions were deposited against the Bill by groups representing road users and none which argued against the proposed treatment of light vans.

The hon. Member for Newport, East therefore had time to make those points during the passage of the Bill but never made them clearly and did not seem interested in them.

Mr. Roger Evans (Monmouth) : Could my hon. Friend help us on this one? My constituents, especially in Chepstow, drive small vans across the Severn estuary. As the hon. Member for Newport, East (Mr. Hughes) said, they treat the Severn bridge as just another piece of the

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M4. How has it come about that the charges have been such a shock? They certainly were not appreciated until it happened.

Mr. Carlisle : First, I welcome my hon. Friend to the House. I look forward to his maiden speech with great anticipation, having already seen something of his verve. I congratulate him on his great victory in Monmouth. He will appreciate that the pattern of tolls for different vehicles was incorporated in the Bill. It was not challenged by Opposition Members. Indeed, one must bear in mind that if we had reduced the tolls for vans, we would inevitably have had to increase the tolls for cars by a greater amount to pay for the bridge. I wonder what Opposition Members would have said to that.

Mr. Roy Hughes : Does the Minister appreciate that I and my hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) served on the Standing Committee and opposed whole scale the toll charges in the Bill while his colleagues on the Conservative Benches sat like dumb mutes? They did not say a word in opposition. We have been basically against toll charges as a whole. When we talk about vans in the second category which will pay a toll of £5.60, it is reasonable to suggest--

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes) : Order. Interventions must by their nature be brief.

Mr. Carlisle : I understand what the hon. Gentleman says, but the truth is that when the Bill was going through the House he never criticised the formula and balance of tolls between the different sorts of vehicles. That was the point that I sought to make. In the circumstances, given the benefit in journey times and costs provided by the Severn crossing, and the greater benefits which will accrue once the new bridge is opened--that is the vital point--the Government believe that the new tolls are reasonable for all categories of vehicle. Vehicle users can obtain discounts on the tolls of 20 per cent. in the case of cars and light vehicles by buying books of tickets from the concessionaire.

The hon. Member for Newport, East also reported that some of his constituents had experienced difficulties in obtaining the discounted toll tickets. Obviously, I am sorry about that. But the sale of the tickets is a matter for the concessionaire. I understand that the company is aware of the problems which have arisen as a result of the unexpectedly large initial rush of demand for tickets. It is dealing as quickly as possible with the backlog of applications. I hope that the problems will soon disappear.

The House may also be interested to know that people who are disabled and those who ride motor cycles can use the bridges free. Lastly, I emphasise that the tolls are essential to help build a new bridge rapidly within four years. The new bridge will be of huge benefit to the economies of both south Wales and south-west England. The hon. Member for Newport, East raised some points about the financing of the bridge. I did not follow the figures that he used or recognise them. I understand that there is £120 million of debt on the existing bridge. Of course, during the period of existence of the bridge much has been spent, for example, on repairs and other measures. Under the concession agreement, the Severn River Crossing company is entitled to collect a total of £976 million in revenue over the concession period, provided that the period does not exceed 30 years. The

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£976 million figure is justified on the basis that the company is financing over a period of some 20 years or more construction work costing about £300 million and the repayment of the deficit of about £120 million outstanding on the existing bridge. In addition, it is now responsible for the costs of maintaining and operating both bridges throughout that period. Given the considerable interest costs inevitably also involved over the period, the total revenue requirement is certainly not unreasonable.

Dr. Kim Howells (Pontypridd) : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Carlisle : No. The hon. Gentleman was not involved in the debate and I have several more points to cover.

Before I comment on the traffic delays which have just now occurred at the bridge, I should first inform the House of the tragic accident that happened yesterday when the driver of a vehicle died in an accident on the approaches to the bridge. The House will appreciate that I cannot say anything that might prejudice the formal outcome of the inquiries being made by the coroner and the police. However, I understand that shortly after midday a van collided with stationary vehicles at the rear of a queue of traffic leading to the bridge. The driver of the van died and three people from other vehicles were taken to hospital. Initial reports from the coroner suggest that the van driver died of natural causes. I should like to offer my sincere condolences and sympathy to the bereaved and injured.

With regard to the traffic delays at the bridge, which have been described, the Severn River Crossing company--which is, of course, responsible for levying the new tolls--put out a great deal of publicity about the new arrangements, with the assistance of the Department of Transport and the Welsh Office, during the two weeks before the changeover. A press conference was held in the area, leaflets and press releases were issued, and prominent signs were put up on the approaches to the bridge. However, no publicity campaign can ever hope to reach everybody and, inevitably, many people were caught unawares on that first Sunday and the following Monday morning, without the right money to hand. The practical difficulties of dealing with the new toll amounts and the extra handling of change required also caused some initial problems for users and toll collectors alike. In addition, regrettably, a small minority of users stopped to complain to the toll collectors about the new system, or refused to pay, thus causing further delays to other users. The end result, as the House will know, was that for a time there were long tailbacks of westbound traffic, heading towards Wales. By an unfortunate coincidence, there were also problems in the eastbound direction on that Monday morning because of the breakdown of a lorry.

After the first Monday until this Tuesday morning, including the bank holiday weekend, there were no undue delays at the bridge. Yesterday morning, however, one of the toll booths had to be closed for urgent safety work, leaving only five available. This led to some delays to traffic during the day. These were compounded in the afternoon by more serious disruption arising from the aftermath of the tragic accident that I described earlier. The safety work at the toll booths is scheduled to be

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completed this evening so that, while there have been further delays today, the situation should be back to normal from tomorrow onwards. I greatly regret any inconvenience caused to motorists. Notwithstanding yesterday's events and the temporary disruption to traffic arising from the need for urgent safety work at the toll booths, the general picture has been that all concerned--users and toll collectors alike--have quickly adapted to the new arrangements. I should also remind the House that traffic in the eastbound direction now passes through toll- free, so is no longer interrupted by the need to stop for toll collection. In time, that change will be greatly welcomed by the bridge users.

Work is in hand to increase the capacity of the toll plaza at the bridge for one-way tolling. This includes the construction of two new toll lanes and the provision of tandem toll booths in three lanes, providing a total of up to 11 toll booths. The concessionaire is making every effort to provide the full capacity as soon as possible, to minimise the possibility of delays to the summer holiday traffic. Those arrangements will provide ample capacity for the period until the new bridge is opened.

In addition, the concessionaire is planning to introduce, later this year, automatic vehicle identification systems for the automatic collection of tolls, which should help to streamline the arrangements for regular users.

Although it was not mentioned in the debate, I know that there have been some complaints about the telephone information service. The service has been altered to improve it, so that the current traffic and toll information is given first. Other news, such as weather conditions, is now given later so that people need not wait for it. We are also seeking faster updating and there will be more telephone lines--up to 600.

It was likely that the introduction of a wholly new system of tolling at such an important and busy location as the Severn bridge would cause some temporary disruption, however thorough the preparations. As I have said, I regret any delays during the first day.

To return to the main theme of the debate, it is important to remember that the ultimate purpose of the changes is to enable the financing and construction of the second Severn bridge.

Mr. Morgan : Are there any circumstances in which the concessionaires can come back to the Department of Transport and ask for a further increase, over and above the formula? I read in the press that they could say that they had now uncovered unexpected difficulties and wished to increase the toll charges over and above the already highly injurious formula that exists.

Mr. Carlisle : These are my first few days in the Department, but I understand that the formula is laid down in the Act and that the company must abide by that formula. However, if I am wrong--I hope that the hon. Gentleman will understand the position--I shall write to the hon. Gentleman to put the record straight. I believe that the formula is laid down by an Act of Parliament, which has been thoroughly debated by both sides of the House.

Thanks to the Government's commitment to progressing the scheme as a matter of the highest priority and the way in which we have managed successfully to tap into the initiative and resources of the private sector, work on the project is already under way. Within four years the new

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bridge will be open, when it will provide huge benefits to the economy of the area, not only south Wales but the whole of south-west England.

Hon. Members : Shame on you.

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. I deplore seated interventions, particularly when they are repeated.

Mr. Carlisle : In paying attention to your words, Madam Deputy Speaker, I shall conclude by saying that the Government's actions and belief in attracting private sector money into those schemes have enabled that area of

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the United Kingdom to look forward to that much needed bridge long before it might have done so under any other Government. The current arrangements and the drive that is going ahead to provide the bridge, which is being paid for by those who use it, are the right approach. Ultimately, they will be widely welcomed by local people, who do not want quibbling and delay. We are determined and committed to get the bridge in action as soon as possible.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes past Ten o'clock.

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