House of Commons Hansard Debates for 7 May 1992

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on benefit get into the labour market to better themselves? How can people on £30, £40 or £50 a week find the wherewithal to launch themselves? The unemployed have been targeted, not for choice and opportunity but for bearing the costs of the Government's economic mismanagement. If unemployment is a "price worth paying", the unemployed form a class worth dispensing with.

Pensioners, too, are trapped in poverty, because the Government have broken the link between pensions and earnings. That has cut £17 a week from the income of a single pensioner and £28 a week from the income of a married couple. Lone parents are trapped into dependence by a lack of child care facilities, even though most of them would much prefer to earn in order to support themselves and their children.

All those people--more than one third of our nation--have no alternative to social security at this time, yet the Government intend to kick them when they are down. Those people form the excluded Britain. Conservative Members make no mention of them in their rhetorical speeches in this debate. They are the disappearing ones to whom the Government turn a blind eye until they grate by sleeping in shop doorways or on the steps of the opera. They formed the gap in the Prime Minister's opening speech yesterday. They are the people whom the classless society will never touch and was never intended to touch. Their enforced losses and deprivation over the past 13 years are financing the opportunity and incentives for those who are able to climb the ladder. For them, the Prime Minister's citizens charter is a sick joke.

Mr. Tim Smith : Can we take it from what the hon. Gentleman has said that not only is he not in favour of any extension of selective benefits but that he would prefer to see them reduced and have a system of more universal benefits? Is that right?

Mr. Meacher : I believe that universal benefits are the only way of ensuring that the poorest in our society receive the benefits that Parliament has intended that they should receive. The retirement pension is the only thing available to 2 million or 3 million of the poorest pensioners, and child benefit is of key importance not just to the poorest families but to those on middle incomes. Child benefit is without any poverty trap, because it is not means tested. It is essential that those benefits should be preserved and that is my immediate requirement. That is why I asked the Secretary of State whether the Government intend to keep them. He did not answer that question and he still has not done so.

Mr. Lilley : We have not had an answer from the hon. Gentleman. Will he serve under a leader whose manifesto for the leadership election says that he wants to carry out a review of all universal benefits to see whether they should be means tested?

Mr. Meacher : Can we be clear about this? I am glad that the Chief Secretary is with us. I take it that there has been some discussion between the Secretary of State and the Chief Secretary. Is the Secretary of State confirming that the basic retirement pension, open to all at the age of retirement, and child benefit will be preserved as universal benefits over the next five years?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Social Security (Miss Ann Widdecombe) : It is in the manifesto

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Mr. Meacher : I am glad that we have that assurance from the Under Secretary. I hope that the grimace on the face of the Chief Secretary is not a sign of pain. That is an important achievement in this debate.

Mr. Ian Taylor rose--

Mr. Meacher : I want to make progress. [Interruption.] We are here to discuss the Queen's Speech and the Government's intentions. People are interested in those who have just won the election and their intentions over the next five years. At this time, and probably for the next two or three years, that is exclusively what matters to the people of this country. That is why we are sticking to that issue, and will continue to do so.

My third fundamental objection to the Government's social security strategy set out in the Queen's Speech is one which the Secretary of State, however hard-nosed he may be on compassion or inequality--

Mr. Lilley : The hon. Gentleman has asked me questions and I have answered them all in full. He owes it to the House to answer the question whether he would take part in a review of the universal benefits which his right hon. and learned Friend believes should at least be considered for means testing.

I shall see that the pledges in our manifesto are implemented. Will the hon. Gentleman remind the House that, when he was in government he participated in a breach of Labour's pledges to pensioners, both over the Christmas bonus and over the link with earnings?

Mr. Meacher : Certainly, I gladly recall for the House that on two occasions the Labour Government did not pay the Christmas bonus--that is a matter of historical record. However, the result of that was that pensioners lost £20 altogether. By comparison, they gained 20 per cent. in real terms during the last five-year period of Labour government. Over the past 13 years of Tory government, pensioners have gained fractionally over zero per cent., because there has been no real gain for pensioners--at least for the poorest pensioners, who do not have other income, and that is what really matters. That is the difference between the parties. There was a 20 per cent. gain over five years of Labour government and virtually nothing over 13 years of Tory government. [Interruption.]

My third point is something about which the Secretary of State should be concerned-- [Interruption.] Let me finish this point. If the Government persist with their policies for another five years--and, indeed, tighten the screw further--I say advisedly that there is a real risk of a social explosion.

In America in the 1980s, there was the same Government-driven generation of inequality as there has been here, both at the top and at the bottom. For the first time, we now have about 2.5 million people living in families forced below the safety net of income support by social fund loan repayments, poll tax arrears, electricity and gas repayments, rent arrears and so on. Three quarters of the people who are desperate for last-resort assistance from the social fund are now turned away. Not only are there beggars on the streets, but children are inadequately clothed and fed, and our housing is crumbling. More than 20 per cent. of homes are now officially unfit for human habitation.

The relative deprivation that pervades this country is not so very different from that in south central Los

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Angeles. The explosion there provoked lawlessness, but its causes were poverty and injustice. The same tinderbox ingredients are increasingly present in Britain for anyone with eyes to see. I am talking about the people with no voice, no hope, and often no votes--more than a million of them have fallen off the electoral rolls as a result of the poll tax. I warn the Government that, if they are provoked further, the underclass--call it what you will--will have no other means to make their presence felt except by insurrection in the streets. I desperately hope that that does not happen, but we are not the Government and we want to ensure that the Government do not deliberately provoke an explosion. Many of us believe that they may. In its own research studies, the Home Office recognises that the rocketing crime rate is linked to poverty and recession. A few months ago, Robert Reiner, professor of criminology at the London School of Economics, concluded an in-depth study with the following words : "The bottom line is that, if we separate out long-term trends and more recent sudden changes, the rate of increase really does relate to increased poverty and inequality, and to sharp declines in consumption levels amongst the worst off."

The Secretary of State is playing with fire by pushing inequality at the bottom still further. The clashes in Trafalgar square two years ago and the five nights of disorder on the Meadow Well estate in Newcastle last summer were a warning. I believe that that warning should be heeded.

I draw attention to the news today that President Bush has concluded that the main lesson from the Los Angeles riots is that there must be a huge and continuing Government programme to lift the victims of society out of poverty--one which must be sustained so that they do not fall back into poverty. That is clearly desperately needed in America today. Even in the absence of immediate riots, such a programme is desperately needed here too. That is one major reason why we find the Queen's Speech so lacking in judgment and in wisdom. 9.35 pm

The Secretary of State for Social Security (Mr. Peter Lilley) : I join everyone in welcoming you, Madam Speaker, to your high office and in adding my congratulations to you on achieving it. I also add my congratulations to the chorus of maiden speakers we have heard today, if that is the correct collective word for maiden speakers. All were of an extremely high standard, as the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher) has just remarked.

I took a particular interest in the contribution by the hon. Member for Lewisham, East (Mrs. Prentice) who paid an especially kind tribute to her energetic predecessor. She represents an area in which my family had its roots. Although she represents it with great lucidity, she does so in accents that I do not recall from my youth. She mentioned the particular problem of the Rathbone Society in her area. I have made rapid investigations and I have discovered that it suffered from unresolved organisational problems which caused it finally to close on 24 April. All those being trained by it are being found other places by the South Thames training and enterprise council.

I was also interested in the excellent contribution by the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Mrs. Roche). She paid a welcome tribute to Hugh Rossi, who was one of the outstanding Members of Parliament and a

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former Minister in my Department. My wife comes from the area and she was originally a councillor there, so I will keep a beady eye on proceedings.

I unfortunately missed the speech of the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Chisholm), but I gather that he made an impressive contribution and argued that child care should be his top priority. I shall read his speech with interest.

The hon. Member for York (Mr. Bayley) rightly paid tribute to Conal Gregory, a friend to many of us here. I agree with him about the importance of getting right the changes in the arrangements for community care as they are made.

I am sure that all hon. Members will join the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Mr. Smith) in his tribute to his predecessor. Michael Foot was one of the great orators and wits whom the House has known. I was glad that his successor had a fluent and confident style. I am sure that all those hon. Members will make important contributions in the House again. We look forward to hearing from them in future and we miss their predecessors.

The hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) appears, as my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Smith) said, to have learnt nothing from defeat. She defended, in an astoundingly lengthy contribution, the record of the 1974-79 Labour Government. One felt for a moment that she was not so much a part of a dream ticket as of a nostalgia ticket--nostalgic for a nightmare at that.

The most important and significant Opposition contribution came from the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field). He was thoughtful, creative, compassionate and reasonable. The thought passed through my mind, "Thank heavens he is not standing for the leadership of the Labour party." I am not convinced that his proposals on taxation are necessarily viable or workable, but I am certain that they present our party with a greater electoral threat than anything that the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith) has been or would be able to devise ahead of a future election. The hon. Member for Birkenhead is undoubtedly right to point out that targeting, if achieved by steep rates of benefit withdrawal, can give rise to serious disincentive effects. I shall certainly look at the specific examples that he gave and see whether there are lessons to be learnt.

On the Maxwell issue, the hon. Member for Birkenhead will know that the Government will respond to his Committee's report in due course. On the specific proposal that the hon. Gentleman put today, I am afraid that it would be far more open ended than it appears and, I am sure, than he intends. But I can assure him that we are keeping in close contact with the trustees, actuaries and managers of all the pension funds concerned. Action is being taken energetically to try to resolve the ownership of assets and return them to the funds. If, in the meantime, anyone is not receiving his or her pension, they are of course entitled to the guaranteed minimum equivalent to their SERPS entitlement. If they need support from the benefits system because of uncertainty as to their income or future income, we have alerted the social security offices to make sure that, if necessary, emergency provisions are put into effect to make sure that they receive that help. I

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hope that the hon. Gentleman will recognise that we are trying to respond as positively as we can to the very serious problems that are raised by that issue.

Mr. Frank Field : Have any of the funds that fear that they may not have the assets to continue to pay pensions approached the Government, asking them to underwrite their commitments in the way that I suggested, or have no approaches been made at all?

Mr. Lilley : I do not think that anyone has made the specific proposal that the hon. Gentleman has suggested to us. Obviously, in the first instance, the trustees are seeking the return of those funds. One hopes that that will be achieved as rapidly as such a complex matter can be achieved.

Mr. Meacher rose --

Mr. Lilley : I am about to refer to the fascinating list of questions of the hon. Member for Oldham, West, if I may. Indeed, I shall come straight to them if that will help him to contain himself. He said that there was no mention in the Queen's Speech of a new framework for pensions. I have just said to the hon. Member for Birkenhead that we will be responding to the Select Committee's report on the subject. Of course, we are committed in the manifesto to a full review of pension law and the framework of pension law. The hon. Gentleman wanted the banks to restore stolen property. Of course, every effort is being made to identify and return it, and it is right that that should be the case.

The hon. Member for Oldham, West asked whether the Exchequer would give an open-ended guarantee to meet any shortfall. He recognises in advance that that cannot be the case. He argued that the Department had brought about the situation by failing to bring in two items of legislation which, in his view, would have made it impossible for the late Mr. Maxwell to carry out his wrongdoing. There is absolutely no reason to suppose that those pieces of legislation would have had that effect. They were, of course, delayed because of the serious, costly implications that there could have been of the Barber judgment interacting with them, and there is absolutely no evidence that had they been introduced already they would have prevented what has happened.

The hon. Gentleman knows, too, that the Barlow Clowes situation is not and was said at the time not to be a precedent. He knows, I should have thought, that when he says that £6 billion has been used in what he describes as a bribe to persuade people to take up private pensions, he has simply got the wrong figure by a large factor. He is including the contribution that individuals would otherwise have had to make to SERPS, which instead goes to the private pension schemes. Those private pension schemes being funded means that there is a flow of committed long-term savings available for long-term investment in industry. That must be something which surely all of us who believe in investment wish to encourage.

Lastly, the hon. Gentleman repeated his question, "Do the Government intend to deal with trustee law?" Obviously I shall not give details at this stage, but the review will cover the whole framework of pension law.

So the hon. Gentleman's remarks on those fronts did not carry us much further than in the previous Parliament. Nor did they on several of the other matters that he raised.

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Mr. Meacher : The Secretary of State will not be surprised to know that I am far from satisfied with his answers. First, I asked whether he would press the banks to return the assets in the way that the Governor of the Bank of England has said that they should not. Does the Secretary of State believe that they should? We do. Does he?

Secondly, the Secretary of State does not seem to have answered the question about underwriting the continued payment. He said that no approach had been made. If an approach were made, would he support it? Thirdly, if there were a shortfall even after the banks returned the assets, would the Government meet it and provide compensation as they did in the case of Barlow Clowes?

Mr. Lilley : The hon. Gentleman seems to wish me to answer his questions three times even though he has refused to answer my questions. I repeat the answers. Of course, there is no question but that assets identified as belonging to the funds must be restored. I made it clear to the hon. Member for Birkenhead that his proposal was unfortunately much more open ended than it appeared at first sight and, therefore, we could not endorse it. If the hon. Member for Oldham, West failed to catch that, I am sorry about it.

Perhaps I may now return to the mainstream of my remarks. I must begin by thanking the hon. Member for Oldham, West for his kind, if somewhat mixed, words welcoming me to the job. Many of those who have welcomed me to the job have recognised that it is not entirely a bed of roses. Someone pointed out that when I was Financial Secretary to the Treasury it was my responsibility to relieve taxpayers of about £70,000 million a year through a complex and incomprehensible system of interlocking taxes. Now I am responsible for handing out £70,000 million a year through a complex and incomprehensible system of benefits. I think that it was my predecessor who said that the only difference was that one was far more unpopular giving it out than taking it away.

It is a particular challenge to follow my predecessor, who is unrivalled in his knowledge of the system and his manifest dedication to the beneficiaries. The hon. Member for Oldham, West is a great luminary on these subjects. He has detailed knowledge of the benefits system and I recognise his personal commitment to all those who are in need.

The only occasion that I recall on which the hon. Gentleman and I have previously debated was at a meeting in my constituency which he might recall. It was called by his union, the Confederation of Health Service Employees. I was foolish enough to accept the invitation. I fully realised that the entire audience would be on the hon. Gentleman's side. But the union took the additional and somewhat unnecessary precaution of inviting seven platform speakers to support him. I had none. I was getting a pretty good drubbing, but I took comfort in the remark of Einstein, whose theory of relativity was denounced by 100 German professors. He replied :

"If I were wrong it would take only one professor to prove it." Mr. Meacher : But they did not support the right hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Lilley : At the election we found a great many people to support me and remarkably few to support Opposition Members.

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I have always admired the hon. Gentleman's debating style. He is never knowingly understated. He is not afraid to exaggerate a little. He might even be described as the Dame Edna Everage of the Opposition Front Bench. He deserves praise from this side of the House for other reasons, too. He is the unsung hero of the Tory election victory. After all, it was the hon. Member for Oldham, West who committed Labour to the initial pledges which forced the shadow Chancellor to spell out how he would raise taxes--a commitment damaging in itself but rendered incredible by the additional pledges that the hon. Gentleman crammed into his party's manifesto. We calculated that the hon. Gentleman's pledges alone totalled £13 billion or more--over a third of Labour's total promises. No one could match him, no one could stop him and no one could believe him. Never in the field of public expenditure has so much been promised to so many at the expense of so few.

Now the hon. Gentleman is playing a key part in the subsequent election-- for the leadership of the Labour party. On 28 April, The Guardian reported :

"Already left wingers such as Michael Meacher and Robin Cook are arguing that the party's historic support for universal benefits, such as child benefit and pensions, must be reconsidered in favour of targeting."

That gave the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East the impression that the coast was clear to his left. So he promised in his leadership manifesto to

"examine in an open-minded way the balance between universal and selective benefits."

He said :

"There may be a case for many of them remaining universal, but it's only right to re-examine everything. I have not ruled anything out of court."

Unfortunately, that crossed in the post with a letter to The Guardian from the outraged hon. Member for Oldham, West repudiating the very idea of a move in favour of targeting. The leter said : "I have never said or implied any such idea".

So the brothers are in a real mess. The heir presumptive is at loggerheads with the spokesman incumbent. We want to know whether the spokesman incumbent will remain so when the heir presumptive wins the election.

Mr. Meacher : The Minister has made the point that I was going to make. After 20 minutes of his speech he has not yet reached the Queen's Speech, but I wanted to ensure that he understands that the report in The Guardian had no foundation whatsoever. He has now quoted it to make a long and cumbersome point about the internal discussion within the Labour party.

Mr. Lilley : On the subject of being long and cumbersome, the hon. Gentleman took six minutes of my speech and has just reattributed them to me retrospectively. Therefore, if I cannot deal with all the points as I wish, it is his fault. I never expected to be outflanked to the right by the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East. I can only assume that he covets my "Spitting Image"--uniform, monocle, jackboots and leather gloves. And he is welcome to them. The Labour party spent the last four years claiming that we had laid the social security system to waste and that we did not care. The electorate did not believe it because its rhetoric was manifestly at odds with the facts. We have increased spending by over half in real terms since we came to office. It is absurd to say that a party that spends

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£70,000 million on social security does not care about those who need it. That is over £10 from every working person every working day being spent on social security.

Ms. Armstrong : What are the future trends of Government policy? Will the Minister recognise the point made by the hon. Member for Waveney (Mr. Porter) that 16 and 17-year-olds are not finding places on youth training schemes because places are not available? The hon. Gentleman said that there were problems with that and that benefit was still not being paid.

Mr. Lilley : Opposition Members keep asking me to get on with my speech and then taking time out of it.

We have an excellent record on social security, not least on the disabled. We have increased real spending on long-term sick and disabled people by 150 per cent. We have increased the number receiving attendance allowance fourfold, to nearly 1 million. We have increased the number receiving mobility allowance sevenfold to nearly 660,000.

We are adding further help from two new benefits this April--disability living allowance and disability working allowance--which will bring help to around 300,000 disabled people, at a cost of an additional £300 million in 1993-94.

We were the first to give proper recognition to the role of carers. We have increased the numbers on invalid care allowance from 5,000 to 155,000 and we introduced the special carer's premium in income support.

For pensioners, too, we have a good story to tell. Pensioners' real average incomes have risen by 34 per cent. since we came to office. That is faster than the incomes of those below retirement age and five times faster than under Labour. Pensioners have benefited from the growth of private pensions, the positive yield on savings, the development of the state earnings-related pension scheme and the abolition of the hated earnings rule.

We have also targeted extra help on the least well off. Last month we increased pensioner premiums for the over-80s and disabled pensioners by more than inflation. From October 1992, there will be further increases in all the pensioner premiums : £2 per week for a single person ; £3 for a couple. We will have given £700 million extra since 1989 to poorer pensioners over and above the normal benefit upratings. That proves that one can target without introducing a means test into the basic retirement pension--a point which the hon. Member for Oldham, West may have to make to the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East.

The election revealed how fundamentally different the approaches of the Government and the Opposition are to social security. Labour believes that the problem is inadequate funding, which can be made good by a once-for-all increase in spending. We recognise that demands on social security are rising inexorably. There will be more elderly people, there will be more frail people and people's expectations will continue to rise. A once-for- all increase will not cope with that.

We need a continually growing economy to fund those demands, which means a low-tax, lightly regulated, enterprise economy. Moreover, many needs are better met directly by long-term economic growth than by reliance on the benefit system, however generous. Sound economic

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policies feed through to private pensions through higher dividends, to generate jobs, to permit a wide range of self- provision and to protect savings. I am convinced that the policies that we are pursuing will ensure that Britain is one of the first countries out of the world recession--just as it led the world out of world recession in the early 1980s. We will again generate jobs. Let us remember that during the 1980s Britain created more jobs than most other countries in the European Community combined and we still have a higher percentage in work than in any other country in the Community.

This is a momentous period for our social security system. Major change is likely to come to a head in the next few years for a variety of reasons. First, the Maxwell case has made it clear that we need to review the occupational pension framework. Unlike the hon. Member for Oldham, West, we agree with the Select Committee on Social Security on that. I shall be announcing my plans for that review to the House in the course of the next few weeks. The Barber case will put heavy burdens on private pension schemes. The Coloroll case will clarify that and, together with the Maastricht protocol, will, we hope, remove the threat of retrospection. But it will leave many loose ends to be tied up.

The Government are committeed to equalise the pension age. I shall be considering the responses to our consultation paper, when consultation ends in June, with a genuinely open mind.

In April 1993, there will be a change in responsibility for community care, which will involve major changes in social security. A new Child Support Agency is being established. Finally, our pledge on personal pensions has to be implemented.

Let me make clear my priorities. While fulfilling our commitments, I believe that we must apply six criteria. I want to focus benefits, with any improvements that we can afford, on the most needy. I want to minimise the disincentive effects of our benefit structure. I want to simplify the system wherever possible. I want to ensure that our system adapts to the differing needs of the people it is intended to benefit--the elderly, the disabled, the unemployed and families--not to force people to adapt to a complex system. I want to bear down on fraud and abuse, since every penny misappropriated means less for those in real need. I want to encourage personal responsibility, not undermine it. That is why I attach such importance to the Child Support Agency, whose remit is to ensure that parents meet their legal and moral obligations to help maintain their own children. It is why I shall press ahead to enact our pledge to encourage personal pensions. The extension of personal pensions to 4.5 million people has been an enormous success. It has dramatically widened the range of people with their own pension to supplement that provided by the state. It is increasing the volume of committed long-term saving available for long- term investment by industry. And it has given millions of people greater flexibility and mobility.

The hon. Member for Oldham, West calls the incentives that have encouraged this welcome growth a bribe. His right hon. and learned Friend, in his ill- fated shadow budget, threatened to abolish the incentive--and even to repudiate retrospectively the obligation to pay it in respect of savings made last year. Nothing could demonstrate more clearly the divide not just between Labour and

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Conservative, but between Labour and the British people. Labour Members are out of date, out of touch and out of office.

The electorate have shown that they reject Labour propaganda about the failings of our system ; they distrust Labour's pledges as ill targeted and irresponsible. They acknowledge the massive increase in benefits that we have financed. They know continuing improvements require a dynamic and enterprising economy. They want extra help to be focused on those in greatest need--

It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.

Debate to be resumed tomorrow.

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Benefits and Mortgage Payments

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. -- [Mr. Arbuthnot.]

10 pm

Mr. Simon Burns (Chelmsford) : I am grateful to have the opportunity so early in the life of this Parliament to raise an issue of particular importance to two of my constituents--the income support system and mortgage payments. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bury, North (Mr. Burt) on his elevation to office and on his first Adjournment debate as a Minister. I am not sure whether this is the right thing to say, but I hope that he enjoys this one and goes on to answer many more in the Chamber over the coming years.

The problem that has been highlighted by the case brought to my attention by two constituents--I do not want to name them--illustrates an aspect of policy that I do not believe Parliament envisaged or would want to perpetuate.

The income support system as constituted means that claimants who are repaying mortgages may have an additional amount to cover their mortgage interest paid on top of their usual personal allowance. Obviously, it is paid only for the house-related element of a loan, not for any other items for which a mortgage, rightly or wrongly, has been raised, such as the purchase of a car.

I appreciate that when housing costs are considered "excessive" they may not be met in full ; for instance, when a house is unnecessarily large or in an unnecessarily expensive neighbourhood, or when costs are higher than the costs of other suitable accommodation in the same neighbourhood.

I also appreciate that since late last year the Government have legislated to alleviate income support and housing problems, to limit the number of repossessions of the homes of people unfortunately caught in this sad predicament.

Nevertheless, the problems highlighted by my constituents' case raise important issues that must be examined. When there are disputes between the Department of Social Security and claimants over mortgage payments or related matters, they are dealt with by an appeals system established by Parliament. This is the nub of my case and I should like to suggest that individuals are penalised and that the system is stacked against those caught by this problem.

Parliament has created the social security appeal tribunal to adjudicate cases of dispute. Quite rightly, it is immune to political interference, but is the system working as well as it should and as envisaged by Parliament when it established that system?

Although an adjudication officer may refer a claim or question to an SSAT, only the income support applicant has the right to appeal to an SSAT, but the law allows both the applicant and the adjudicating officer the right of appeal against a decision given by an SSAT to the social security commissioners, with leave and on a point of law. That is where the problems arise and cause undue hardship and unfairness to constituents such as mine.

To explain what that means, I shall elaborate a little on the problems still faced by my constituents. Unfortunately, both the husband and wife became unemployed as a result of the economic climate of the past year or so. They had a mortgage of £30,000. To many people, such a mortgage

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would be relatively small and those who are thrifty would welcome it. However, the house is valued at the current market price of not less than £210,000. I suspect that four years ago it was worth noticeably more.

The adjudicating officer took the view when my constituents claimed for income support that with such a small mortgage vis-a-vis the value of the property, they should sell their house and buy a cheaper one. As they did not do that, the adjudicating officer decided that they should not receive help to pay the interest on their mortgage. That raises important issues which I shall discuss later. My constituents appealed to the tribunal and won. The tribunal, in its reason for the decision, said :

"Effectively this house includes an element of capital which has always been intended to be used when freed by a move down market to buy an annuity or to augment the pensions available to the couple. This is a perfectly prudent and reasonable decision by a married couple and in the view of the Tribunal effectively to force the couple to move at this juncture by selling at a value lower than that which they are satisfied is the proper and reasonable market value would be totally unreasonable."

I wholeheartedly share the tribunal's view, as will every reasonable person. To strengthen its decision, the tribunal added that it

"sees nothing in the regulations which compels them"--

my constituents--

"to take this view".

To add insult to injury, the adjudicating officer has now decided to appeal to the social security commissioner against the tribunal's decision in favour of my constituents. He has been given that right by Parliament, and that raises serious issues which the Minister should address. The system is unfairly loaded against people such as my constituents.

First, people who are desperately seeking jobs will not usually be out of work for long periods vis-a-vis their total working life. Why should they be expected to sell their homes and move down market during what will, one hopes, be a small part of their working life? Surely the benefits system and the mortgage payment regime are designed to help tide over people who have temporarily fallen on hard times or are in difficulties. They are safety nets to provide such people with badly needed financial help when they are seeking jobs and seeking to re-establish their finances.

Secondly, why should my constituents and, I suspect, other people be expected to sell property at a time when there are serious problems in the housing market and property would probably have to be sold at much less than its market value in normal times?

Thirdly, does my hon. Friend the Minister accept that people such as my constituents find it extremely difficult to understand why they should find themselves in such a predicament when a Mr. Peter Julien of Hampstead is able to have his £1,700 a week mortgage paid by the Department of Social Security because he has a £630,000 mortgage, unlike my constituents who have an extremely modest mortgage of £30, 000?

Fourthly, my constituents have been told by the officials handling their case that their £30,000 mortgage is too small in comparison with the value of their property and that if they had had a larger mortgage and had not been as thrifty or as financially wise as they have been, the

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