House of Commons Hansard Debates for 8 May 1992

Mr. Clarke : I will remind myself of the facts of the unhappy miscarriage of justice in the Guildford case. I do not recollect that it concerned the activities of the Security Service or the prevention of terrorism Act.

Mr. Corbyn : Paul Hill was arrested under the Act.

Mr. Clarke : He may well have been arrested under it, but it was not a cause of the miscarriage of justice in that case. The prevention of terrorism Act is absolutely essential to frustrate terrorist activity in this country and to give proper protection to the public and, in the aftermath of the general election, I hope that the Opposition will move urgently to reconsider their position on that Act.

I agree that, in dealing with the affairs of Ireland, we must continue to have political discussions, and my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State is engaged in taking those discussions forward at this very moment. Terrorist activities by the Provisional IRA on mainland

Column 306

Britain and in Ireland have no useful effect on the political process--indeed, they put back the prospects of a settlement in Ireland every time they occur. That is why it is so important that we have effective efforts against terrorism alongside all the political initiatives of my right hon. Friend the Member for City of London and Westminster, South (Mr. Brooke), which are now being carried forward by my right hon. and learned Friend the present Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.

Mr. Sheerman : The Home Secretary has something of a reputation as a political bruiser, but I know him to be a thoughtful man. Will he therefore answer just two questions--or at least take them away with him? First, why cannot the House and Parliament have some scrutiny of the secret services, and why cannot he see his way to initiating such a process? That does not have to be announced today, but it should come soon. Most other modern countries, such as the United States, have such scrutiny, and it works well. Secondly, why has the right hon. and learned Gentleman shut the door on a national police intelligence unit with an operational arm? Either the present Government or the next Labour Government will have to establish such a unit very soon.

Mr. Clarke : I will have talks on both matters because my instincts- -like the instincts of the Government--are for openness and accountability in these matters as in other activities of government. I trust, however, that we all agree on the principle that there is no point in having accountability and openness in respect of operations if it is of a kind that will damage the effectiveness of the service.

I look forward to the talks that I have just offered at the Dispatch Box. I trust that the hon. Gentleman will accept that today's decision does not affect this matter in any way. I hope that, when he sees the next report of the commissioner on the Security Service Act, he will accept also that we have made great strides towards accountability for the security services.

Column 307

Foreign Affairs

Question again proposed.

Mr. Peter Bottomley (Eltham) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Column 1 of yesterday's Official Report contains an answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) about the building society legislation. I refer to the matter only briefly, because we shall have the opportunity to debate a resolution on Thursday and later to consider the matter in connection with the Finance Bill, but I want to ask your advice.

This will be the fourth time that the matter has come before the House and, on three occasions, retroactive legislation has been involved. The Government should be very careful about interfering with matters of judicial review. Given that the issues at stake have not changed since October, it ought to be possible for the matter to be heard properly. May I ask you to remind Ministers who want to give information about such matters to try to do it rather more openly rather than sneaking it on the first Thursday of a new Parliament?

Madam Speaker : That is barely a matter for the Chair. I have referred to the answer that was given, which says quite clearly that the matter will be subject to a Ways and Means resolution which will be among those appearing on the Order Paper on 8 May, although I think that the point will have been taken.

11.35 am

Mr. David Howell : I am grateful for the opportunity to add a brief peroration to my earlier remarks, which were truncated by the arrival of the Executive in the House.

My theme was that, despite the end of the cold war, we are living in an extremely perilous era ; that centrifugal and splintering forces threaten the stability and security of Europe ; and that this ancient nation and democracy are not immune to those forces. It is important, therefore, that we have the principles of our foreign policy--nowadays merged with our domestic policy--absolutely clear and, in particular, that we use the opportunity of the Prime Minister's triumph at the time of the Maastricht treaty accords, and of the House being invited to approve a Bill related to the Maastricht treaty, which lies directly ahead, to establish clearly where we want Europe to go. We want it to take a strong lead from London, which we are now in a particularly good position to give, to meet new threats and to adjust to the 21st century. We do not want to recreate some gigantic, over-centralised, overblown structure more appropriate to the 19th century.

The vision that must guide my right hon. Friends is both an old one and a new one : it is the nation, and the nationhood of today, as a unifying force equipped for a 21st century role--as a focus for pride and patriotism and as a bulwark against the disintegrating and centrifugal forces that are everywhere in a dangerously fragmented world. That is what should guide us as we look at the Maastricht treaty.

Mr. Spearing : I am grateful to the Chairman of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs in the previous Parliament and endorse what he said about the advisability of the completion of the report on which that Committee was engaged. Would it not be helpful for the report to be completed before we complete our consideration of the relevant Bill?

Column 308

On that matter, the right hon. Gentleman mentioned subsidiarity and the repatriation of powers. Is it not a fact that the principle of subsidiarity, whatever it be, applies only, as is stated in article 3b of the draft treaty, in areas that do not fall within the executive competence of the Community? Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that, particularly in respect of the single market, that exclusive competence is very wide?

Mr. Howell : The hon. Gentleman is very experienced in these matters and will know that that gives rise to the question of what that competence should be in the future and how these matters should be better defined in a firmer constitutional way than they have in the past, when the arrangements have led to a sensation of the creeping accumulation of powers by the Commission and the Community. Such matters require a great deal of work, and the Maastricht treaty provides not a staging post on the way to European unification and integration but a starting point for all that work, which will establish the kind of flexible and loosely confederal Europe that we need for the 21st century. That will be a force in the world for open and freer trade, as well as an opportunity for the new states of EFTA and the countries of eastern Europe to become part of it. The statesmen of the new era are those who will really understand and convey to others the weave of the tapestry of the new kind of nationhood--not the old nationalist drum-beating but the concept of the nation as the effective organisational building block in the Europe of the future and in the new world order about which President Bush so frequently speaks.

Conservative Members must never forget our free market principles, our dedication to the individual and our welcome for the collapse of the collectivist and socialist commitment throughout the world as the answer to society's problems. That era has been and gone. But we must also never forget that these principles of ours must be applied in a world which, while seeking freedom everywhere--in Russia and all the former communist countries and in many former totalitarian areas--is also coming close to chaos. We shall require a new commitment to unity on this island. This nation has a golden opportunity to take a most vigorous lead, and we should do so.

11.38 am

Mr. Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) : I am grateful for the opportunity to speak so early in the debate, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I congratulate you on your new office. As I listened to the speech of the right hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell), my mind boggled at the idea that the Conservative party might one day forget its free market principles. The day that that happens, we may as well all pack up and go home for ever.

I shall devote my remarks to the European presidency, on which the Foreign Secretary briefly touched and to which the Prime Minister referred on Wednesday. The right hon. Gentleman listed what he described as four "objectives" :

"completion of the single market, continued reform of the common agricultural policy, negotiation of the Community's future finances and the first steps towards the Community's enlargement."--[ Official Report, 6 May 1992 ; Vol. 207, c. 72.]

The Prime Minister is in a unique position. He will be the last President of the Community before the single market comes into force on 1 January and the last President of the

Column 309

Community before the Maastricht treaty proposals come into effect. The right hon. Member for Guildford made some interesting remarks about the Maastricht treaty and referred to the variety of debate and discussions throughout the Community about the proposals. Because we have had debates on the issue prior to the Maastricht summit, that does not mean that it is not in order for our Community partners to have their debates afterwards. As the Foreign Secretary said, the debates on Maastricht that occurred in this place last November and December will continue, as it is a continual debate on a continually moving situation. We should welcome the fact that our Community partners will debate the issue at length. We all hope that they will reach the same conclusion that the House reached--that the Maastricht treaty proposals should be brought into force in the new year. The Prime Minister's predecessor signed the Single European Act in 1986 after a guillotine motion. However, she eventually became hostile to it and became difficult within the Community. It has been left to the Prime Minister to pick up the tab and bring the single market into its final focus before the end of the year.

Reference has been made to a free market, but there must be a clear definition of the single market. The single market involves employment, rights--especially women's rights--and the environment. Under the Prime Minister's presidency, we should like to see a clearer definition of the market. As I have said before, it is not sufficient to have a single market. Such a market must be linked to what the Opposition would describe as social cohesion and that involves the social charter and the social chapter.

There is no point in trying to develop a single market without that social dimension. However we may view the events in Los Angeles, urban deprivation in a country based on the principles of the free market, it is clear what can happen. Our Community partners are aware of that and they understand the significance of a social dimension that goes hand-in-hand with the single market. We will not give up on that argument or walk away from the social chapter or the social charter. We will continue to press the Government on the issue and try to hold them accountable and to persuade them. In the years to come, I believe that the Government will come into line with the social chapter and the social charter like our Community partners. We must also consider unemployment within the Community. It is clear that the exchange rate mechanism contributes to controlling inflation. However, one of its consequences is high unemployment. There is high unemployment throughout the Community. It is evident in Ireland, Germany and France and we have it here. One of the great challenges of the Government's presidency is to tackle the effects of unemployment in relation to the exchange rate mechanism.

We welcome the reforms that the Prime Minister, as President, will seek to bring about in the common agricultural policy. The right hon. Member for Guildford referred to the budget proposals of the next five years. In that respect, the CAP will still account for 54 per cent. of Community spending. We do not object to reform of the CAP in the interests of consumers, taxpayers, farmers and the countryside. However, the financial benefits of the reform should be devoted to a stronger regional policy and to more structural funds within the Community. We do

Column 310

not believe that the Government have had over the years a coherent and satisfactory strategy on regional investment and regional policy. We do not want a Community with the industrial strength of France and Germany at its hub. We, like people in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, who are on the geographical periphery, should have the benefit of a strong regional policy and strategy.

The Prime Minister said that the membership of the Community would be widened. We welcomed that before the general election and my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) has also welcomed it. However, we believe that the vista on human rights should also be widened. There should be more human rights initiatives. We want a little vision as well as pragmatism from the Prime Minister when he assumes the presidency. President Bush did not believe in vision and we have seen some of the consequences of that in Los Angeles.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones) : I intervene now only because I will clearly have difficulty in answering all the points when I reply and the hon. Gentleman has raised an important matter. I am sure that he will agree that, with regard to human rights, we should try to avoid duplication as we consider the role of the various institutions in the face of the new world order. The Council of Europe has a distinguished role in human rights and one might almost argue that it covers the human rights dimension of the European endeavour. We must be very careful not to have two worthy institutions to which we belong competing for competence.

Mr. Bell : I agree that they should be compatible and that they should not compete. If Labour had been in office, we would have been anxious to establish a European environmental initiative to go hand-in-hand with our vision on human rights and widening of membership.

The Prime Minister was correct to point out on Wednesday that he is the first head of Government in the Group of Seven to undertake to attend the Rio summit on the environment. He was also right to say that he would back our commitment to the target of returning carbon dioxide emissions to 1990 levels by the year 2000 provided that others do the same. He was also right to say that he hopes to sign global conventions on biological diversity and climatic change. However, the launching of a European environmental initiative under the Prime Minister's presidency would boost the Community's fifth action programme for the environment. As 1992 happens to be the European year of health and safety, he should use the European environmental initiative to pay special attention to health and safety and environmental issues in the workplace.

I do not want to prolong the debate, as at least two hon. Members wish to make maiden speeches. However, as the Prime Minister approaches the time to assume the presidency, he should be aware that his record and that of the Government hardly inspire confidence as we move towards 1 January. The Government have presided over record levels of unemployment and business failures. They have presided over record levels of homelessness, interest rates, home repossessions, crime levels and trade deficits.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Gorton said earlier that when he listened to the debate on the Queen's Speech on Wednesday he thought of lost opportunities.

Column 311

When I listened to the Prime Minister on Wednesday I thought of Alexandre Ledreu Rollin, who was a lawyer and politician. He was one of the chief instigators of the February revolution of 1848--one of those socialist springtimes that we seldom see these days. As he forced his way through the mob, he cried to the crowd, "Let me pass. I have to follow them. I am their leader."

Faced with the fact that the British Government are already threatening to veto any proposal to reduce our budget rebate, faced with the fact that we have opted out of the social charter of the Maastricht treaty, faced with the fact that we are not in the narrow bands of the exchange rate mechanism, faced with the fact that we have little prospect of having the European central bank in London, faced with the fact that we have opted out of European monetary union, faced with the fact that the new Secretary of State for Employment has already been seen in the corridors of Brussels resisting a 48-hour week directive, on 1 July the Prime Minister will find himself seeking to scramble through groups of Community leaders, saying, "I am the Prime Minister, I am the President of the Community, let me pass, I am your leader." That may not be an epitaph for a president who is yet to begin his term, but, regrettably, it is the likeliest outcome.

11.50 am

Sir Rhodes Boyson (Brent, North) : I wish to comment on the speech of the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Bell). In the council elections yesterday, there was little sign of the so-called enthusiastic return to the Labour party and the social charter, so perhaps the hon. Gentleman should not appear in the streets trying to enthuse people either as their leader or as their supporter. There were three points in the Foreign Secretary's speech on which I should like to comment. First, my constituency has a large Greek-Cypriot population, so there is considerable concern regarding the Cypriot situation and I therefore listened carefully to what was said about that this morning. The second point concerns Kashmir and the third concerns Hong Kong. My memories of Kashmir and Hong Kong go far back, as I served in the services in India at the time of independence and also during the reoccupation of Hong Kong, so we can have a bit of history not just of the 19th century but of this century.

On Kashmir, unless we return to the agreement that was signed at one stage, that problem will go. Pressure must be brought to bear on that point. On Hong Kong, one hopes that as many liberties as possible will be transferred to the people before the country is linked once again with China.

I commend the Gracious Speech as one following a remarkable election victory, largely due to the popularity of the Prime Minister and the unpopularity of the Labour party. I do not want to rub that in, but I really must, as I made a note of it.

We have been elected on approval. I underline "on approval", rather like stamps, to get the economy right, to maintain the constitution and also to put right our relations with Europe. Those are the three issues on which the next two or three years of successful Conservative government will be decided.

I welcome the 0.5 per cent. reduction in interest rates this week, but our real rate of interest is still about two and

Column 312

a half times that of the United States of America or Japan. I do not believe that there will be a real economic revival until we get the real interest rate much lower than it is at present.

I agree also that one of the reasons why we won the general election was taxation. The public at large did not agree with the policy of the Labour party. Although we have lost the empire to which I referred, we have kept a language. The very fact that English and not Esperanto is the language of the world means that we have to compete with the rest of the world in respect of wages and taxes or we shall lose our scientists, engineers and business men. It is very important that we keep taxes down. I welcome the 20 per cent. level, and I trust that it will apply for all people on the standard rate within the next five years of this Government. However, I should also like the top rate to be reduced to 30 per cent., again to encourage business men and entrepreneurs to come to this country.

We can have low taxes only if we keep Government expenditure under control. In this century, the more Parliament meets and the more Ministers there are, the more Bills costing money in the long run are passed. I was delighted that the Gracious Speech said that the Government

"will reduce the share of national income taken by the public sector."

Up to 1987 we achieved that--we brought it below 40 per cent.--but in the past four years it has crept up again, as it always does, to about 43 per cent. We must get it back to below 40 per cent., as in Switzerland and Japan. The 40 per cent. level is very important. The various taxes that are taken from people in this country currently represent £10,000 per person at work. Nobody can say that we are a low tax country. The more that people make decisions about their own money, the better society is--rather than such decisions being made by Government committees, however elevated.

There is growing concern about European restrictions on free trade and manufacture. I say that not as a Euro-cynic but as a Euro-sceptic. I voted to remain in Europe, but I have always been far more dubious than the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, as he knows. If there are restrictions, Europe will be much less competitive with the rest of the world and the growing economies of the far east will surpass our ability to produce at a certain price.

It is apposite that I follow the hon. Member for Middlesbrough. I have great respect for the way in which he successfully fought a certain issue years ago. However, I disagree with him entirely on this matter. I am not happy about the Government's attitude to the 48-hour European directive. I want no restrictions on hours worked. Such decisions should be made entirely in this country. It is no use getting the social charter right in general and then losing every individual case that comes up. I see a degree of wobble in this matter. I do not like wobbling, and there was wobble on this last weekend. I trust that we can get a bit more spine before the decisions are made.

It is vital that we get an agreement on GATT. Financial services are something that this country does well, but we shall not be able to sell them to the world if we are handicapped by the European agricultural policy and subsidies for inefficient French and German farmers.

I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I looked around and saw a man of great distinction sitting in a Chair in which I have never seen him sitting before,

Column 313

and I am sure that the whole House will approve that elevation ; I did not even see him walk in--he just arrived there to the great amazement of us all.

The election was clearly won by the Prime Minister's firm stand on constitutional issues. In the last resort, constitution issues matter even more than economical issues. Those constitutional issues are proportional representation, devolution or the break-up of the United Kingdom, and federal Europe.

Proportional representation is always backed by parties when they cannot win elections. When the Liberal party formed the Government of the country, it did nothing about it. Since the second world war the Labour party has twice had large majorities, but did nothing about proportional representation. I am reminded of the analogy of the boy who takes his bat away when somebody hits his wickets, as if to say, "If I can't bat, no one is going to play." Proportional representation would make the outcome of every election a hung Parliament. Italy, with its 50 Governments since the war and its 18 parties, Poland with its 29 parties-- [Interruption.] The evidence is there, even though the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber (Sir R. Johnston) may not like it. The hon. Gentleman can always write to me with his evidence, and I will study it and reply. I always respect his views and do not always disagree with him. Last November Belgium took 100 days to form a Government. It also has a debt of 130 per cent. of its gross national product. Otto Von Habsburg, a Member of the European Parliament, has said that if Germany had had the first-past-the- post system after 1918 there would have been no Hitler. Recently in Baden- Wurttemberg, extremists achieved 11 per cent. of the vote and 15 seats. In Schleswig-Holstein, with a 6.5 per cent. vote they gained five seats.

We should remember that at a general election we vote to elect a Government. We do not vote for a set of pressure groups battling to control the country and changing from time to time. We want a firm Government. I believe that that is what the public want. It would be suicidal to move to any form of proportional representation. The second point is the unity of the United Kingdom. I do not want six separate English assemblies. I had enough with the Greater London council. I do not want separate assemblies for Wales and Scotland. Once we start setting up such assemblies the people serving on them will inevitably have a vested interest in breaking up the United Kingdom.

The number of Members of Parliament who represent the various parts of the United Kingdom should be checked. The increase in the number of Members proportionally representing Wales and Scotland led to the destruction of the grammar schools in England beginning in 1964. At that time the Labour party was elected to government because of its extra seats in Scotland and Wales. The English electorate wanted the grammar schools to remain. People still want some form of selection. I leave that gently to be thought about by hon. Members on both sides of the House.

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister's firm stand on the constitution won us two more seats in Scotland, and also did us quite nicely in Scotland yesterday. I am sorry to rub it in--it just seems to come out from time to time like a cork out of a bottle, and I feel ashamed every time

Column 314

because there must be much sorrow on the other side today. I am not offering drinks to all, but I recognise that there must be much sorrow.

My last point is opposition to a federal Europe. I was delighted and the country and certainly my constituents were delighted--they came out into the streets--when the Prime Minister said in the last week of the election campaign :

"I do not support a united states of Europe I am not a federalist."

I was happier when we had the European Economic Community than when it became the European Community and put its hands into all other spheres. I certainly do not want a common currency or a central bank. Nor do I want to be ruled by the code Napoleon, against which our ancestors fought in the Napoleonic wars. I do not want to be allowed to do only what the state allows. That is the opposite of the position in Britain today, where liberties exist unless the state takes them away.

Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington) : The right hon. Gentleman is going back to the Edwardian age.

Sir Rhodes Boyson : There was nothing wrong with the Edwardian age, but I must not get into a conversation about that. My apologies, Mr. Deputy Speaker--I was incited. I must not be interrupted, especially as I am near my conclusion. My right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell) was interrupted. I agreed with his speech. When we withdrew, we did it because we agreed with one another's speeches. My elder daughter lives in my right hon. Friend's constituency and voted for him, so I listen to what he says carefully and report back so that she can be sure he is on the lines that he ought to be.

Mr. David Howell : And my right hon. Friend's granddaughter.

Sir Rhodes Boyson : Indeed, I have two granddaughters living in my right hon. Friend's constituency.

To return to my theme--I am being diverted and I must resist this, Mr. Deputy Speaker--the last thing that I want is to become part of a bureaucratic, restrictive nightmare Europe, as against an economic one which, by division of powers, creates greater prosperity. Finally, I have to say that I look forward to four more Queen's Speeches in this Parliament before the next election. I was glad to hear the speech of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. I served as his deputy for one year in the Northern Ireland Office and worked well with him there. His speech was a good resume . The only matter that I am concerned about is that we should watch the development of our relationship with Europe so that it is of advantage and not disadvantage to Britain.

12.4 pm

Sir Russell Johnston (Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber) : I echo the congratulations that you have already been given, Mr. Deputy Speaker, on your appointment. We are pleased that you are in the Chair. I suppose that if I study the speech of the right hon. Member for Brent, North (Sir R. Boyson) in Hansard tomorrow, on the usual odds I will find something in it with which I agree. But at the moment of speaking I cannot think of anything. The speech of the right hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell), which preceded that of the right hon. Member for Brent, North and was lauded

Column 315

by him, was backward, negative, old- fashioned and narrowly conservative in a way that I found disappointing. It was much worse than usual.

I wish to speak on three matters and I shall be brief because I realise the pressures of time. The United Nations, to which the Foreign Secretary and other hon. Members referred, is the first matter. The position at the United Nations has changed since the end of the cold war in that the famous Soviet veto has been withdrawn. Fortunately, so far there is no sign, although one can never be sure, that the Chinese will follow where the Soviet Union previously blocked. The Chinese did not block during the progress of the Gulf war. They did not block the measures taken to protect the Kurds in northern Iraq. One must be hopeful. The United Nations now has the capacity to take action. Therefore, in future it should be much more interventionist in its role of maintaining and sustaining peace and spreading health, education, economic development and so on throughout the world.

I have said before in the House that the two basic propositions upon which international diplomacy has been based since the war are out of date. The first is that there should be no interference in the internal affairs of a sovereign state. That was firmly and clearly breached in the case of the protection of the Kurds in northern Iraq. I am sure that it will be breached more and more in the future. At a certain stage, the international community cannot allow certain things to happen. It will therefore act if it is in a position to do so.

The second proposition is that each state has territorial integrity and that no boundaries should ever be changed. I have always thought that that was rather a ridiculous proposition. Sensibly, many boundaries should be changed. It is perfectly true that if equivalent human rights are provided, it perhaps does not matter too much what the country in which one lives is called. Nevertheless, there are plenty of examples of people wanting to live in one country rather than another. What people want is of some importance.

The right hon. Member for Brent, North may say that he does not want the Scots, the Welsh or anyone to have any sort of representative assembly. But I remind him that, despite the marginal increase in support in Scotland for the Tories, the great majority of people want some sort of representative assembly. The majority do not want independence, do not want to split up the United Kingdom and do not believe that the establishment of an assembly would be the first step on some slippery slope. In democracy there ought to be some opportunity to create such assemblies.

I wish to make one more point on the Kurds. I noticed the Minister react slightly on that point. The Minister will know that an internal election is being held by the Kurds in northern Iraq. It has been able to take place only because the German Landt of North Rhine-Westphalia has sent the Kurds the necessary ballot papers, which they did not have, and indelible ink, which is necessary because the Kurds have no registers whatever. What have we done? Not very much, I am afraid. We have been asked to send observers, even unofficially, yet we have refused to do so.

Saddam Hussein is still harrying the Kurds by both long-range shelling and occasional incursions of aircraft. They are still subject to considerable pressures. There is interference in human rights. Considering the amount of money we spent and the lives that were lost--not many, but each life in itself is valuable--I am not impressed with

Column 316

human rights in Kuwait. I am certainly not impressed with the way that administratively it has treated its internal Palestinian population. I am not impressed by the way that some of the domestics who seek work there have been treated. It is something that the Kuwaitis should put right, and the international community should tell them to do so.

In an intervention, the Minister referred to the Council of Europe and said that we do not want competition for competence. That is right. Although the Council of Europe dabbles in many matters, basically it is concerned with culture, education and human rights. It is the European Community which competes with the Council of Europe, not the other way around. The European Community has enough to do without dabbling in culture and education. Of course, an overlap on human rights is inevitable. Both are interested in that matter, and there is no way around that. The Minister is nodding sagely. Perhaps he would consider giving a little more money to the Council of Europe. He looks horrified by the possibility.

Mr. Garel-Jones : I am not looking horrified. However, as the hon. Gentleman knows Britain is one of the "grands payeurs" in the Council of Europe. Our contribution each year is decided on a vote among its members, and the hon. Gentleman knows that we always meet whatever contribution is set. Britain is one of the four largest contributors.

Sir Russell Johnston : I am not talking just about Britain. It is important to consider the overall level of contribution that member states make to the sort of work that they expect the Council of Europe to do. That contribution is less than it should be. I want to say a word about UNESCO, which has not been referred to by previous speakers. I have a rather bitter recollection of the Government's announcement about UNESCO on 22 November 1984, which also happened to be the day that the Liberal party had its first full Supply day in the House since the war. At that time there was famine in Ethiopia and we chose overseas aid as the subject. I had the honour of opening that debate. It was the first time that a Liberal had spoken for half an hour in introducing a debate. In the middle of the debate, the then Foreign Secretary, Sir Geoffrey Howe, decided to announce the United Kingdom's withdrawal from UNESCO. That meant that all the coverage in the newspapers the next day was about UNESCO, with not a word about the Ethiopian problem.

We should rejoin UNESCO as quickly as possible ; there is no justification for staying outside it. The argument that somehow our coming out of it led to a reform of the organisation is spurious. I agree that there were a number of problems, most of them to do with the previous director-general, who was a strange person in some respects. He was certainly very dictatorial. Those countries that remained in the organisation have been responsible for the changes. Arms control has already been mentioned as a major United Nations preoccupation, so I do not need to repeat what has been said. I agree that we should work actively, through the United Nations, to control the sale of arms.

As I said, I reject the approach of the right hon. Members for Guildford and for Brent, North towards the European Community. Our approach has always been a federal one. Federalism does not mean centralisation ; it

Column 317

means decentralisation. Our approach is fundamentally different from the Government's approach which, as the Foreign Secretary said, has tended to be based on an intergovernmental model. We are arguing for a supranational model with structured devolution in a federation. Maastricht was a missed opportunity, and we contributed to the missing of it.

There should be a common foreign and security policy. I am puzzled by this rather opaque reference in the Queen's Speech :

"They will aim to develop the Western European Union as a means of strengthening the European pillar of the alliance and the defence component of the European Union."

I am all in favour of a defence component of the European union. There is great sense and merit in using the WEU as a bridge because members of the WEU are also members of the European

Community--although not the other way around because of Ireland and because of countries such as Austria coming in. Neutrality is an out-of-date word because there are no sides to be neutral in between. I should like the WEU to act as a bridge, and if that is what the phrase in the Queen's Speech means, I am pleased.

I do not need to repeat what was said by the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Bell) about the social charter and the need to have a social component in the single market. I agree with what he said.

The right hon. Member for Guildford is an amiable gentleman, but sadly many amiable gentleman utter strange remarks. Among the many things in his speech with which I disagreed was his comment that the idea of a single currency was fatuous. Far from being fatuous, it is thought by many to be a necessary precondition to an actively operating single market. It would also be convenient both for business and the individual citizen.

I had expected some words on the European budget because that will be a problem for the European Community. For some time, we have needed a general review of the way that individual countries pay, perhaps related to gross national product. There will be a row about the special British provision. I hope that the Government will consult the House considerably in advance.

Another criticism of the right hon. Member for Guildford was that the European Community was unaccountable. Very often, the reason why we do not know about European measures in advance is that Ministers do not put them before the House and ask it to express its opinion until after the event. Therefore, it is our fault, not the fault of the structure of the European Community.

How big will the European Community be? Is there an optimum size or will it just go on growing, like Topsy? I think that a line should be drawn somewhere, but I am not sure where. Once we start going to places like the Aleutian islands, as the Minister said, it becomes a little out of hand and difficult.

Mr. Garel-Jones : I intervene in the hon. Gentleman's speech again lest I am unable to deal with all the points that he is making when I reply to the debate. I cannot let him get away with the assertion that the Government do not inform the House on those issues. I dare say that our mechanisms for informing the House about and discussing them with hon. Members European directives are

Column 318

susceptible to improvement. But, as the hon. Gentleman knows, every draft directive that issues from Brussels must be made available to the House within 24 hours, must be accompanied by an explanatory memorandum within 10 days and must then be examined by the Scrutiny Committee. That arrangement may be susceptible to improvement, but the hon. Gentleman is being a little hard in saying that the House is not kept informed on those matters.

Sir Russell Johnston : The Minister should count himself lucky that I am being only a little hard. My complaint is not that documents are not necessarily available. I am speaking of the means of open discussion, in advance of Ministers attending the Council. That situation is not satisfactory.

The Foreign Secretary spoke of what he called destructive nationalism appearing in the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia. What has been happening there has been horrifying and, in many cases, barbaric. I do not agree with the view on Yugoslavia expressed by the right hon. Member for Guildford, I heard him state on "The World at One" recently. He blames the Germans. It is not fair to blame them for what that right hon. Gentleman would call the over-rapid recognition of Slovenia and Croatia. That was inevitable. I also believe that what is now happening in Bosnia and Hercegovina would have happened anyway. There was no way to stop it, apart from intervening militarily, and one can understand why no country was prepared to put troops in such a role. We might have considered some means of keeping the Yugoslav air force on the ground. We had the capacity to do that without creating much danger for ourselves. We did it in Iraq extremely effectively. For example, I would not be against telling the Serbians, "You will not use your aircraft casually to launch rockets and kill civilians here and there." I have already put that proposition to the Foreign Secretary.

The Foreign Secretary and the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) should remember, in terms of destructive nationalism, that Yugoslavia, and the Soviet Union on a vaster scale, imposed central imperial power on recognised national groups. We are seeing the revolt against that.

Time in this debate is precious and I cannot deal with many points that I would otherwise have raised. The know-how funds are doing well, although it is clear that we could spend far more, and more flexibility by the Treasury would be welcome. I appreciate the approach of the Government in using the money carefully. I also appreciate that it is not easy to have control over the money in large areas. To ensure that the money is used wisely is a good precaution, but we may need to make a bigger international effort, perhaps in the terms expressed by the right hon. Member for Gorton in relation to a Marshall plan approach. I hope that at the G7 discussions in Munich the British Government will take a positive approach to such a proposal, should one come forward.

Next Section

Home Page